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When I look at the country of the person posting pro-Israel stuff, it is almost always the same one. By pure coincidence of course, the same one that helps Israel's army the most.
Ever wondered that maybe the news that has been fed to you is just biased towards Israel? Ever wondered that?
If Israel wanted peace, they wouldn't assassinate the opponent's leaders.. now of course they are not dumb, it is a semi-calculated move. They want chaos, they want to cause anger and desesperation in the Palestinian people. Why? Well maybe for the firm belief that they are a superior race. It's not the first time the Hebrew people has been hated worldwide, and it is certainly not the last. It's really too bad the Corporate elites support them in their quest for acting like victims while they've actually been responsible of all the Middle East's problems since the 50s.
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I don't know if this is unpatriotic to say..but as a former Republican and now Libertarian I gotta say I'm pretty tired of any violence over there. Israel needs to chill out. Why the fuck are they widely considered our closest ally"
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On November 15 2012 12:28 Schvitzer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 12:15 AngryMag wrote:On November 15 2012 11:58 Adreme wrote:On November 15 2012 11:49 AngryMag wrote:On November 15 2012 11:22 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On November 15 2012 11:19 AngryMag wrote:On November 15 2012 11:09 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On November 15 2012 11:07 Feartheguru wrote:On November 15 2012 11:02 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On November 15 2012 10:59 Feartheguru wrote:
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So... your idea is to let them kill as many Israelis as they want until they decide they want peace. Read above post, maybe you should find the "kill as many Israelis" because right now Israeli has a much lighter civilian deathrate than Palestine. Right and guess what? Too bad. This conflict has generations of hatred in it. There is no negotiated peace, the conflict will end when one side is defeated. No other conflict had generations of hatred? The apartheid which is often compared in South Africa to Israel and Palestine today, the black/white connection in America, the century long feuds between British and French. Sorry, I didn't know "conflicts of interest" were required to be solved by the sword. On November 15 2012 11:09 AngryMag wrote:On November 15 2012 10:59 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote:
Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it. Odd way of looking at defense you have. That's like equating the USA's involvement in Iraq as a "defensive measure"  Sympathies go to all the families in the Palestinian region, they're suffering some pretty ridiculous abuses. On November 15 2012 10:57 AngryMag wrote:
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You might want to read up the official goals of the Hamas organisation regarding Israel. These guys are Nazis and they won't deviate one millimeter from their political goals. In these goals Israel does not exist anymore, there is nothing to discuss with high ranked Hamas officials. NAZI"s are they? But I thought Nazi's were uprising in Germany instead... do away with your fear mongering. Equating the Hamas to the Nazi regime... How silly of you. Tell me, oh master of knowledge, what are the rates of innocent Palestinians dying yearly to Israeli's ? Or the UN specifically condemning the child abuse by the IDF. Oh Israel does wrong, too. Really, I thought the conflict could be broken down in a black and white scheme. Thanks for your expertise. And again Hamas official line regarding Israel and its jewish inhabitants is to either deport them or if they don't go voluntarily, kill them. Just to emphasize again, this is the political line of the highest Hamas officials. Of course, you would talk it out with these guys from the safety of your home of course. And yes, this attitude equals the one of the Nazi, apart from the fact that the Hamas ideology is based on religion, too. Can you give me the EXACT specifications on how a non-state, with weak military presence and is practically under martial law has ANY comparison with the rise of one of the greatest military powers in history other then it wants to kill the other side... Holy shit, America is NAZI, Canada is NAZI, shit Ghengis fucking Khan is a NAZI. Religion being involved? Crusades were full of NAZI's. I mean by your comparison, if you want to kill someone you're a NAZI. Get real, this is getting pathetic at best. Yeah easy. Both movements formulate the goal of killing jews. In Nazi Germany's case it was the European jews, in Hamas case the goal is the killing of the middle eastern jews. If you are delusional enough to think that you can somehow negotiate with these guys: They already made clear that they won't respect peacetreaties between Fatah and Israel, that they never will recognize the state of Israel because it will undermine their cause of "liberating" the middle east from the jews. Again, there is nothing to discuss with these people. They don't want to kill the other side (state of Israel), they want to kill the other side and it's inhabitants, huge difference. Yeah easy. Both movements formulate the goal of killing jews. In Nazi Germany's case it was the European jews, in Hamas case the goal is the killing of the middle eastern jews. Holy shit... So it is just because they want to kill the other side. Well good we cleared that up :D For a second I thought you might of actually had some form of a valid point hidden in your paragraphs of text. We can move along now, AngryMag infers that the goal of killing another side makes you equitable to another faction doing similar things at a different timezone : D and makes no other connections but "X involved, must be Y!" Well if you are a curious one, here some more. Hamas demands exclusive authority claim That is the reason why Fatah-Israel treatments are not honoured and why you see inner palestinian power struggles from time to time. This struggle between Hamas and other authorities (Fatah, earlier PLO under Arafat). Opposition is not tolerated and Hamas demands the sole power position. Very strict dictatory thinking, similar to Nazi Germany. Hamas is a bottom up movement. Gained support through the installation of social services etc. Used this support to expand political and societal influence. Process gets fastened up by using violence against perceived inner and outer enemies. Major difference is the religous element, which is atleast an important, maybe the most important, part of Hamas, though. Similarities are definately there and as long as Hamas doesn't depart from their goal of the destruction of Israel and the deportation, or killing if dismissed from the jewish side, from the jewish inhabitants of the middle east, there will be no ground for negotiations. You can whine and moan about Israel all you want, it's easy, you live thousands of miles away from these nutcases and hindsight is always a nice way to look super smart. In the end noone can blame Israel for actions taken against Hamas, sure some are wrong morally, but as long as Hamas doesn't let go from it's extreme ideology, Israel is not to blame for actions taken with the goal of destroying Hamas (and NOT all the palestinians there). The only thing Israel is doing is making more people want to join Hamas. Take out the names and if you are living in an area where one power is giving you food and schooling and the other is bombing you then you are going to sympathize with the former. Israel might have a perfectly noble goal but its meathods of achieving it do nothing but hamper them every step of the way and cause it to gain enemies not reduce them. You are totally right, I won't dispute statements like this for one second. There is a reason why this shit is going on since forever. It is not easy to solve. It's just silly to victimize guys like the one killed in the airstrike, just read some posts above yours and realize what this guy has done. You cannot negotiate with this guys, it's senseless. They don't even recognize Israel. Just last weekend ~80 rockets hit Israel. This forces action in reality, nobody just endures that over a longer period of time without demanding retaliation. It is naive to think that. In my opinion the only long term solution is to strengthen Fatah in the inner palestinian power struggle. If they get strong enough to destroy Hamas, there might be light at the end of tunnel. Hamas still gets used as a proxy from other states in the region (financial, political support) and has support from the palestinian public, though. Makes it very tough to get rid of them. If it is achieved somehow to get rid of Hamas magically, there are still additional problems. Israel must be forced to compromise. Not easy, but the US could cut their founding, maybe this would work. In the current political framework of the US this won't happen though. Lobbyism from jewish side is too strong at the moment atleast. The whole situation is a huge clusterfuck and I highely doubt that I will see a permanent solution in my lifetime. Only get annoyed at the very onesided statements here from people who think the conflict could be stopped if the state of Israel just stopped to retaliate. Totally naive thinking. What would happen in such a scenario? In one of the next elections, the people would vote for somebody who promises to roll over the palestinians. That is how the real world works. Again nobody tolerates getting shot at permanently without seeking to destroy the threat. Why must Israel be forced to compromise? These people say they do not deserve to exist! Israel is totally justified in their actions. Remember when all Israel wanted from Egypt was to recognize them? That is all they want. And these Pales are asking for it by firing rockets. You cannot say "Oh its okay to try to attack me, can we be friends now?"
I must say I dont understand this post at all. It used to be all Palestine. Part of Palestine was "occupied" (taken) by the "rest of the world" and part of its land was given to Israel. Palestine still being occupied. I don't care about whether it was the right or wrong thing to do, I simply do not understand why you'd expect an occupied country to recognize its occupant as rightful owners of the lands. I can't think of any time in history this was accomplished WITHOUT bloodshed. Peaceful occupation of a nation.
Also, from what I understood from this thread, Israel is also not recognizing Palestine as a country. So. It goes both ways. Israel wants much more than simply being recognized. They want to be recognized as the land owners of that area. Specially Jerusalem. That's a lot to ask. I wonder if you would give up your own land and your own country simply because someone else (say mexico) wanted to be recognized as the owner of that land. And if you would do so peacefully, and if you would still argue that "oh well, all Mexico wants is to be recognized. They deserve it".
Sorry but I do not understand your post at all. You claim that one cannot say "Oh its okay to try to attack me, can we be friends?". I'm claiming that one cannot say "Oh you took half my country and half my land, let's be friends", which is the premise of your claim. Hence I do not understand your post.
This goes for anyone else who is stating more recent facts/events. They all stem from somewhere... They stem from the occupation of Palestine. Expecting anything based on recent events and deaths alone is insane by definition. The underlying cause is still there. Expecting different results while still not changing the underlying cause is insanity. This is simply one way to define insanity. You're being insane :o .. I almost want to say Gratz. But it isn't what I wish to say. I'm just trying to point out that some of you are merely arguing semantics of right and wrong when there's indeed a very real occupation going on. Whether you see it differently or expect time to heal all wounds doesn't matter. Palestine is very much occupied. Each and every day. And they know it. Welcome to war. You cannot try to reason a way to justify occupation. Not to the ones being occupied.
I'm not claiming Israel should gtfo. I'm only asking everyone to at least realize that, to Palestine, this is an occupation. And everything else is just "icing". Discussing who is the worst makes little sense, when there's a war going on. Being the worst can be good in times of war. For instance the US prides itself in being bad to its enemies. You cannot judge someone for being evil to their enimies. Most people would do nothing less themselves. Also, US was formed on native land. It was occupied and taken. Occupation is not a new occurance. I dare you to find a historically peaceful occupation AND explain why this peaceful occupation should be expected of the Palestines.
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On November 15 2012 16:39 Dagobert wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 16:34 fluidin wrote:On November 15 2012 16:30 Dagobert wrote:On November 15 2012 16:22 BluePanther wrote:On November 15 2012 16:20 Dagobert wrote:On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote:
Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it. Yea, but people gave Germany shit too for "defending themselves" during WW2 so I guess people just don't get the bigger picture. I don't believe economic sanctions are the same thing as military attacks... Then why do you ignore them? Also, On November 15 2012 16:17 BluePanther wrote:On November 15 2012 16:14 stfouri wrote:
Hamas and Israel.
You just can't pick sides, both are allmost as evil as another when it comes to bombing civilians.
Ofc Israel has media and US behind it (seriously wtf?). So they can just justify killing kids with bombs, cause "we got the bad guy too".
Holyshit it makes me angry to hear kids dying because of these idiots bombing eachother. With all due respect, the US befriending Israel is the only reason it HASN'T started a war yet. We restrain them immensely. And Israel puts up with a LOT of shit. Nothing says 'immense restraint' like - $81'000'000'000 in foreign aid (mostly military aid)
- 300 F-16
- 160 miliitary helicopters
- 100 F-15
- 50 F-4E Phantom
- 65'000 rifles
- 2500 grenade launchers
- 1500 machine guns
etc. (10-year old figures) Restraining them from an all-out offensive, supporting their defensive and deterrence capabilities. Sigh. Don't be so close-minded. Ironic, considering you're the one buying into the propaganda.
Orly? Do tell how you came by that conclusion. I have stated that I personally feel the Palestinians are the ones more hard done by in this conflict, yet they have to wisen up, or continue to suffer.
The idealistic notions put forth by some people in this thread serve as no help to the Palestinian people, at least not realistically.
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On November 15 2012 16:44 xVoiid wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 16:14 stfouri wrote:
Hamas and Israel.
You just can't pick sides, both are allmost as evil as another when it comes to bombing civilians.
Ofc Israel has media and US behind it (seriously wtf?). So they can just justify killing kids with bombs, cause "we got the bad guy too".
Holyshit it makes me angry to hear kids dying because of these idiots bombing eachother. Agreed, this is pretty much my stance. As an Arab, I am obviously biased against Israel, but I also despise Hamas. Conditions wouldn't be this bad if Fatah was still in power. That being said however, I also despise the fact that some people here put the full blame on the Palestinians. Yes, they fired 100 rockets last week (which is absolutely terrible), but Israel is also slowly creating new illegal settlements on their land. This is apparent in the West Bank, but not so much apparent in Gaza. Why? Because Gaza is armed, it's as simple as that.
The Arabs are regressing further and further. They're increasingly savage nowadays, they even killed off and scattered my own direct heritage, in a nation that just a few decades ago was considered a strongly secular and developing state. It used to be a very secular country. With the "Arab spring" and the takeover by Islamists of the remaining secular nations in the Mideast, the only two countries in the Mideast/N. Africa that make any rational sense are Turkey and Israel.
I'm sorry, but in a choice between one of the few decent and modernized nations in that region, and an increasingly backwards group of neighbors, I'm going to have to go with Israel, and I don't even like Israel much at all. They actually frighten me a bit, but the Arabs/Iranians scare me far, far more.
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On November 15 2012 16:56 kmillz wrote:
I don't know if this is unpatriotic to say..but as a former Republican and now Libertarian I gotta say I'm pretty tired of any violence over there. Israel needs to chill out. Why the fuck are they widely considered our closest ally"
I wouldn't call them our closest ally (that's more likely Britain/Canada)... but they are an ally in an area where we don't have many.
We arm them because they are friendly and the enemy of our enemy is our friend. We are also able to use our significant influence over them to restrain them--without us they would already likely be at war.
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Sigh... No offense to Isrealites but who the hell thinks they can just go bomb other countries and leaders of factions of militia without major reprocussions? this was the dumbest move ive seen by a country in a long time.
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On November 15 2012 17:19 Maasked wrote:
Sigh... No offense to Isrealites but who the hell thinks they can just go bomb other countries and leaders of factions of militia without major reprocussions? this was the dumbest move ive seen by a country in a long time.
Nvm I shan't be so snark in my comments.
I assume you are unaware of the fact that for the past week rockets have been fired into Israel numbering a hundred or more. This was a deliberate retaliation, possibly amongst other underlying motivations.
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At this point it was well over 12 hours ago. But whatever that doesn't matter I'm just being lame.
I am confident that this will result in open war. I can't say Israel was unwarranted in their response to the continued attacks on her soil but this will result in war and more deaths. Is there really no diplomatic end? War will only strengthen the resolve of those that will harm Israeli civilians to further their goals. In the end it is a choice of who loses more civilians.
It is one of the great tragedies of my lifetime.
That's because this is not war. It is cowards and thieves and liars that find the weakest and safest place to attack. War does solve issues, men die in war. War is for peace. But this isn't for peace. If they just attacked each other with armies fro christ's sake israel would win and the civilians could just go home...
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On November 15 2012 17:17 BluePanther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 16:56 kmillz wrote:
I don't know if this is unpatriotic to say..but as a former Republican and now Libertarian I gotta say I'm pretty tired of any violence over there. Israel needs to chill out. Why the fuck are they widely considered our closest ally" I wouldn't call them our closest ally (that's more likely Britain/Canada)... but they are an ally in an area where we don't have many. We arm them because they are friendly and the enemy of our enemy is our friend. We are also able to use our significant influence over them to restrain them--without us they would already likely be at war.
Israel is to the United States as North Korea is to China: a frequently embarassing liability but geopolitically necessary "ally".
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israel stop. this is what starts world wars god.
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boy it is a good thing that palestine doesn't have big planes and tanks.
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As much as I am Anti-Israel and believe they don't actually have a right to the land they are currently occupying. Hamas isn't winning me over either. Shooting countless rockets into civilian territory no matter if they are guilty for being there or not does not equal to attempting to kill them and not except Israel to counter. The only reason Israel is still relevant and able to proceed is because of America backing it. I don't see the USA backing off its support either due to them needing Israel as an Ally in that area. Overall, does this mean I wish for Israel to lose all of its land and be sent off? No, not at all. I think we are passed that point now, Israel needs to stop pushing its housing into illegal territory to help its case on the international scene or else it will constantly be under negative light. Palestine/Hamas has a better chance for the UN to step in and take real action if they stop these rocket attacks and keep pressuring on the political level, they have dozens of backers and as time goes on and the international community sees the illegal activity by Israel for what it is, they will have to back down but...... these attacks on Israel and having civilians die will never allow them to be accepted in the UN. They almost had it last time and if they keep it up they can do but not this current way.
Here is to hoping a peaceful ending does occur sooner or later. War is not the answer, its 2012.... Hasn't humanity seen enough.
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Appearently crude jumped today, I haven't bothered to check the exact amount, but judging from the price action in gasoline, I wouldn't expect this sitation to grow into a full blown war. Not until spring time, at least.
Though, it's neato about the Dome thingy, and the next phase of the defense system that Isreal will be getting from 'MURICA! HELL YEAH!
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On November 15 2012 17:31 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 17:17 BluePanther wrote:On November 15 2012 16:56 kmillz wrote:
I don't know if this is unpatriotic to say..but as a former Republican and now Libertarian I gotta say I'm pretty tired of any violence over there. Israel needs to chill out. Why the fuck are they widely considered our closest ally" I wouldn't call them our closest ally (that's more likely Britain/Canada)... but they are an ally in an area where we don't have many. We arm them because they are friendly and the enemy of our enemy is our friend. We are also able to use our significant influence over them to restrain them--without us they would already likely be at war. Israel is to the United States as North Korea is to China: a frequently embarassing liability but geopolitically necessary "ally".
What's necessary about Israel? The turks were for the taking for a good while and there's always a nice gulf state if we needed. Hell, the lebanon of all was pretty western.
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On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote:
Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it.
I wonder how you'd react when Cuba and Bolivia, backed by other countries, told you that all of the US is now limited to Alaska and the rest will now be called The Communist States of Chinaria and that you can't live there. Obviously, you'd want your land back, but with so many countries backing this new Chinaria, whose only claims to your land are to be found in their holy book of unknown origin, you can't do shit through international talks or anything. You try to fight back but this Chinaria gets nukes and other shit from its supporters and it just keeps sending rockets your way...
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On November 15 2012 17:31 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 17:17 BluePanther wrote:On November 15 2012 16:56 kmillz wrote:
I don't know if this is unpatriotic to say..but as a former Republican and now Libertarian I gotta say I'm pretty tired of any violence over there. Israel needs to chill out. Why the fuck are they widely considered our closest ally" I wouldn't call them our closest ally (that's more likely Britain/Canada)... but they are an ally in an area where we don't have many. We arm them because they are friendly and the enemy of our enemy is our friend. We are also able to use our significant influence over them to restrain them--without us they would already likely be at war. Israel is to the United States as North Korea is to China: a frequently embarassing liability but geopolitically necessary "ally".
You are so right.
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On November 15 2012 17:44 Shelke14 wrote:
As much as I am Anti-Israel and believe they don't actually have a right to the land they are currently occupying. Hamas isn't winning me over either. Shooting countless rockets into civilian territory no matter if they are guilty for being there or not does not equal to attempting to kill them and not except Israel to counter. The only reason Israel is still relevant and able to proceed is because of America backing it. I don't see the USA backing off its support either due to them needing Israel as an Ally in that area. Overall, does this mean I wish for Israel to lose all of its land and be sent off? No, not at all. I think we are passed that point now, Israel needs to stop pushing its housing into illegal territory to help its case on the international scene or else it will constantly be under negative light. Palestine/Hamas has a better chance for the UN to step in and take real action if they stop these rocket attacks and keep pressuring on the political level, they have dozens of backers and as time goes on and the international community sees the illegal activity by Israel for what it is, they will have to back down but...... these attacks on Israel and having civilians die will never allow them to be accepted in the UN. They almost had it last time and if they keep it up they can do but not this current way.
Here is to hoping a peaceful ending does occur sooner or later. War is not the answer, its 2012.... Hasn't humanity seen enough.
Humans tend to do stupid things when desperate. I think Israel actually wants those attacks in order to justify their plans to take all of Palestine.
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On November 15 2012 10:36 Emperor_Earth wrote:
I have only the deepest sympathies for residents of the entire region.
Same here 
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EPT
