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On November 15 2012 15:07 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 14:39 Sub40APM wrote:On November 15 2012 13:48 fluidin wrote:
no matter if it's more unfair to the Palestinian or not, i agree that there are only really 2 feasible solutions to this issue considering the factors presently known.
one, forced 2 state agreement, which probably has a much lower chance of happening than the other, the slow and complete eradication of the Palestinian state, or to similar effect.
too bad the Palestinian people didn't reach an agreement back when it was still possible and elected Hamas in. In a way, they failed to predict what was to come and overestimated their own capabilities. Sun Tzu would not like that. at least the Vietcong had a plan. Huh? The Palestinian population will outgrow the Israeli within the next 30 years. As the influence of APAIC continues to decline in American election, their last protector in the West is going to care less and less. In the meantime the oil money of Iraq/Saudi/Qatar will have to go somewhere, and god knows they'd rather spend it on sponsoring senseless violence than improving the lot of their people. Israel is progressively in a worse and worse position. In the 50s and 60s they could easily launch raids against all their neighbors and not have to fear retribution due to the incompetence of the various regimes around them. But now you have random guys building up missile launchers right next door, fire of a few missiles, suffer retribution that gets shown on TV as Israel tanks shoot up a bunch of refugee camps and the consequent deaths dont even bite into the Palestinian birth rates. In the meantime, Israel politics continues to become more poisoned as more and more religious orthodox Jews come to the forefront and articulate a claim to all of Palestine basted on religious views that are antithetical to the ever-secularizing Western world and it will become harder and harder for low information Americans to say "Oh they are just defending themselves, those plucky heroic Israelis." Do you think this is age of empires? Population doesn't mean shit.... Israel was constantly at risk of being wiped off the map in the 50s/60s, got invaded once, started a war because they were about to be invaded a second time. Launch raid with no fear of retribution ya...
Population is everything. Which is why Canada and America are still ruled by the people who whipped out the locals while all the colonial states in Africa and Asia fell. A minority can never perpetually rule a majority, especially as the technological edge the minority enjoys erodes further and further. In the 60s and 70s, the only opposing forces the IDF had to face were clearly designated military targets and the various socialist-nationalist-Palestinian rebel groups armed with crappy AK-47s. But now, when even a place as cut of from the world as Gaza can produce missile systems, and as that technology gets better and better, its inevitable that the technological edge that Israel has enjoyed in all of its confrontations with the Arabs is going to go away.
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On November 15 2012 15:31 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 15:07 Feartheguru wrote:On November 15 2012 14:39 Sub40APM wrote:On November 15 2012 13:48 fluidin wrote:
no matter if it's more unfair to the Palestinian or not, i agree that there are only really 2 feasible solutions to this issue considering the factors presently known.
one, forced 2 state agreement, which probably has a much lower chance of happening than the other, the slow and complete eradication of the Palestinian state, or to similar effect.
too bad the Palestinian people didn't reach an agreement back when it was still possible and elected Hamas in. In a way, they failed to predict what was to come and overestimated their own capabilities. Sun Tzu would not like that. at least the Vietcong had a plan. Huh? The Palestinian population will outgrow the Israeli within the next 30 years. As the influence of APAIC continues to decline in American election, their last protector in the West is going to care less and less. In the meantime the oil money of Iraq/Saudi/Qatar will have to go somewhere, and god knows they'd rather spend it on sponsoring senseless violence than improving the lot of their people. Israel is progressively in a worse and worse position. In the 50s and 60s they could easily launch raids against all their neighbors and not have to fear retribution due to the incompetence of the various regimes around them. But now you have random guys building up missile launchers right next door, fire of a few missiles, suffer retribution that gets shown on TV as Israel tanks shoot up a bunch of refugee camps and the consequent deaths dont even bite into the Palestinian birth rates. In the meantime, Israel politics continues to become more poisoned as more and more religious orthodox Jews come to the forefront and articulate a claim to all of Palestine basted on religious views that are antithetical to the ever-secularizing Western world and it will become harder and harder for low information Americans to say "Oh they are just defending themselves, those plucky heroic Israelis." Do you think this is age of empires? Population doesn't mean shit.... Israel was constantly at risk of being wiped off the map in the 50s/60s, got invaded once, started a war because they were about to be invaded a second time. Launch raid with no fear of retribution ya... Population is everything. Which is why Canada and America are still ruled by the people who whipped out the locals while all the colonial states in Africa and Asia fell. A minority can never perpetually rule a majority, especially as the technological edge the minority enjoys erodes further and further. In the 60s and 70s, the only opposing forces the IDF had to face were clearly designated military targets and the various socialist-nationalist-Palestinian rebel groups armed with crappy AK-47s. But now, when even a place as cut of from the world as Gaza can produce missile systems, and as that technology gets better and better, its inevitable that the technological edge that Israel has enjoyed in all of its confrontations with the Arabs is going to go away.
It will diminish, yes, but I doubt it will wholly go away, or become so small as to be insignificant.
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On November 15 2012 13:33 Noam wrote:
It was quite obvious that NOW someone would make a thread about this.
However, SEVERAL DAYS AGO, after months of 0 hostile actions from either side, when the Palestinians:
1) Shot an Israeli army jeep with an anti-tank rocket (and did it very purposefully, with 3 separate camera crews lined up)
2) Shot dozens of rockets into Israel (and these rockets are only ever shot at civilian population centers, I assume you all know this by now, but just in case...)
No one was talking about it anywhere, because it is not news until the anti-Israeli PR system goes into full blast mode. You newsmongers sometimes.. just need to get your act straight.
Yeah, one of the disadvantages of being a legitimate democratically elected modern state as opposed to a rag-tag "terrorist" organization. People expect better from Israel than they do Hamas. The rest of the world conducts diplomatic relations with one and not the other. So you're not justified in implying any kind of contradiction here, since it really isn't the same thing.
Having said that, though, I understand Israel's circumstances.
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Israel2209 Posts
One Million Israeli citizens currently under "house arrest" due to missiles and rockets. Going out could mean death.
And while our civilians are being targeted directly, the Israeli AirForce has been dropping leaflets all over the Gaza strip warning citizens to stay away from any Hamas facilities and weapon caches.
See, we don't want to kill citizens, when they use their own citizens as human shields and target ours purposefully.
And this is probably most relevant to TL:
https://www.facebook.com/eSr.Zanubis/posts/296056960494695
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On November 15 2012 15:31 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 15:07 Feartheguru wrote:On November 15 2012 14:39 Sub40APM wrote:On November 15 2012 13:48 fluidin wrote:
no matter if it's more unfair to the Palestinian or not, i agree that there are only really 2 feasible solutions to this issue considering the factors presently known.
one, forced 2 state agreement, which probably has a much lower chance of happening than the other, the slow and complete eradication of the Palestinian state, or to similar effect.
too bad the Palestinian people didn't reach an agreement back when it was still possible and elected Hamas in. In a way, they failed to predict what was to come and overestimated their own capabilities. Sun Tzu would not like that. at least the Vietcong had a plan. Huh? The Palestinian population will outgrow the Israeli within the next 30 years. As the influence of APAIC continues to decline in American election, their last protector in the West is going to care less and less. In the meantime the oil money of Iraq/Saudi/Qatar will have to go somewhere, and god knows they'd rather spend it on sponsoring senseless violence than improving the lot of their people. Israel is progressively in a worse and worse position. In the 50s and 60s they could easily launch raids against all their neighbors and not have to fear retribution due to the incompetence of the various regimes around them. But now you have random guys building up missile launchers right next door, fire of a few missiles, suffer retribution that gets shown on TV as Israel tanks shoot up a bunch of refugee camps and the consequent deaths dont even bite into the Palestinian birth rates. In the meantime, Israel politics continues to become more poisoned as more and more religious orthodox Jews come to the forefront and articulate a claim to all of Palestine basted on religious views that are antithetical to the ever-secularizing Western world and it will become harder and harder for low information Americans to say "Oh they are just defending themselves, those plucky heroic Israelis." Do you think this is age of empires? Population doesn't mean shit.... Israel was constantly at risk of being wiped off the map in the 50s/60s, got invaded once, started a war because they were about to be invaded a second time. Launch raid with no fear of retribution ya... Population is everything. Which is why Canada and America are still ruled by the people who whipped out the locals while all the colonial states in Africa and Asia fell. A minority can never perpetually rule a majority, especially as the technological edge the minority enjoys erodes further and further. In the 60s and 70s, the only opposing forces the IDF had to face were clearly designated military targets and the various socialist-nationalist-Palestinian rebel groups armed with crappy AK-47s. But now, when even a place as cut of from the world as Gaza can produce missile systems, and as that technology gets better and better, its inevitable that the technological edge that Israel has enjoyed in all of its confrontations with the Arabs is going to go away.
Minority rule is actually pretty common. It was very popular during colonial rule, giving the ruling class an incentive to stay in power and actively repress the people of a different tribe/religion.
As for improving technology, I don't see any scenario in which Israel is very likely to lose its edge. Its the only country in the region with any real economic future. Most of them are stagnant, poorly managed by bureaucrats.
They have masses of uneducated youths who have literally no purpose in the global economy. The persistent government control of the economy will see to it that these nations are damned to having no purpose.
The middle-east easily has the worst forecast out of any region in the world.
-----
As for the message. Good, Israel has the right to defend itself, and I didn't hear anyone say a damn thing when Israel was being attacked a week or so ago.
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On November 15 2012 14:43 Draconizard wrote:
I never understood why Israel even bothers to negotiate at all when it is in so obviously superior of a position. Simply dictate the terms, and if there is opposition, just crush it. Israel has proven time and again that it is more than capable of doing so. There might be some temporary international backlash, but it would largely be from nations/groups that are already Israel's enemies.
How can you crush the opposition when every citizen in Gaza is a potential terrorist? I'm not saying they are, but the more violence and injustice Israel gives the Palestineans, the more public hatred towards Israel in Gaza will grow.
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Netanjahu is the worst thing that could have happened to the conflict. I don't see how diplomacy can prevail with him and the Hamas having to cooperate.
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On November 15 2012 15:57 zalz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 15:31 Sub40APM wrote:On November 15 2012 15:07 Feartheguru wrote:On November 15 2012 14:39 Sub40APM wrote:On November 15 2012 13:48 fluidin wrote:
no matter if it's more unfair to the Palestinian or not, i agree that there are only really 2 feasible solutions to this issue considering the factors presently known.
one, forced 2 state agreement, which probably has a much lower chance of happening than the other, the slow and complete eradication of the Palestinian state, or to similar effect.
too bad the Palestinian people didn't reach an agreement back when it was still possible and elected Hamas in. In a way, they failed to predict what was to come and overestimated their own capabilities. Sun Tzu would not like that. at least the Vietcong had a plan. Huh? The Palestinian population will outgrow the Israeli within the next 30 years. As the influence of APAIC continues to decline in American election, their last protector in the West is going to care less and less. In the meantime the oil money of Iraq/Saudi/Qatar will have to go somewhere, and god knows they'd rather spend it on sponsoring senseless violence than improving the lot of their people. Israel is progressively in a worse and worse position. In the 50s and 60s they could easily launch raids against all their neighbors and not have to fear retribution due to the incompetence of the various regimes around them. But now you have random guys building up missile launchers right next door, fire of a few missiles, suffer retribution that gets shown on TV as Israel tanks shoot up a bunch of refugee camps and the consequent deaths dont even bite into the Palestinian birth rates. In the meantime, Israel politics continues to become more poisoned as more and more religious orthodox Jews come to the forefront and articulate a claim to all of Palestine basted on religious views that are antithetical to the ever-secularizing Western world and it will become harder and harder for low information Americans to say "Oh they are just defending themselves, those plucky heroic Israelis." Do you think this is age of empires? Population doesn't mean shit.... Israel was constantly at risk of being wiped off the map in the 50s/60s, got invaded once, started a war because they were about to be invaded a second time. Launch raid with no fear of retribution ya... Population is everything. Which is why Canada and America are still ruled by the people who whipped out the locals while all the colonial states in Africa and Asia fell. A minority can never perpetually rule a majority, especially as the technological edge the minority enjoys erodes further and further. In the 60s and 70s, the only opposing forces the IDF had to face were clearly designated military targets and the various socialist-nationalist-Palestinian rebel groups armed with crappy AK-47s. But now, when even a place as cut of from the world as Gaza can produce missile systems, and as that technology gets better and better, its inevitable that the technological edge that Israel has enjoyed in all of its confrontations with the Arabs is going to go away. Minority rule is actually pretty common. It was very popular during colonial rule, giving the ruling class an incentive to stay in power and actively repress the people of a different tribe/religion. As for improving technology, I don't see any scenario in which Israel is very likely to lose its edge. Its the only country in the region with any real economic future. Most of them are stagnant, poorly managed by bureaucrats. They have masses of uneducated youths who have literally no purpose in the global economy. The persistent government control of the economy will see to it that these nations are damned to having no purpose. The middle-east easily has the worst forecast out of any region in the world. ----- As for the message. Good, Israel has the right to defend itself, and I didn't hear anyone say a damn thing when Israel was being attacked a week or so ago.
Colonialism has ended because eventually technology equalized just enough for the local majorities to drive out the minorities. It will be the same here too if there isnt a permanent peace the majorities in both societies can live with.
And of course the technology is getting getting better. 40 years ago, to inflict any kind of civilian damage on the Israelis the PLO had to sneak people in, hope they could ambush some innocent civilians before an IDF patrol intercepted them and then sneak out.
Now they just set up a missile site in a school play ground, let of a couple dozen rockets, wait for inevitable Israeli response that will kill civilians since Gaza is so densely populated and do it all over again.
The Arabs dont have to catch up or overtake Israeli on overall technology. They just need to keep making their missiles cheaper. Maybe expand into computer hacking and other low level, incessant warfare.
And even if the increased spread of religiousness among the IDF was not by design, its happening already, creating tension in Israeli society itself.
The Crusaders managed to hang onto Outermere for about 100 years, the Boers kept South Africa for 159. The Israelis are only in year 65.
But like I said, as long as demographics and the spread of technology is against them their ability to hang on will be costlier and costlier.
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Hamas and Israel.
You just can't pick sides, both are allmost as evil as another when it comes to bombing civilians.
Ofc Israel has media and US behind it (seriously wtf?). So they can just justify killing kids with bombs, cause "we got the bad guy too".
Holyshit it makes me angry to hear kids dying because of these idiots bombing eachother.
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On November 15 2012 16:14 stfouri wrote:
Hamas and Israel.
You just can't pick sides, both are allmost as evil as another when it comes to bombing civilians.
Ofc Israel has media and US behind it (seriously wtf?). So they can just justify killing kids with bombs, cause "we got the bad guy too".
Holyshit it makes me angry to hear kids dying because of these idiots bombing eachother.
With all due respect, the US befriending Israel is the only reason it HASN'T started a war yet. We restrain them immensely. And Israel puts up with a LOT of shit.
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On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote:
Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it.
Yea, but people gave Germany shit too for "defending themselves" during WW2 so I guess people just don't get the bigger picture.
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On November 15 2012 16:20 Dagobert wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote:
Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it. Yea, but people gave Germany shit too for "defending themselves" during WW2 so I guess people just don't get the bigger picture.
I don't believe economic sanctions are the same thing as military attacks...
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Israel2209 Posts
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On November 15 2012 16:22 BluePanther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 16:20 Dagobert wrote:On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote:
Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it. Yea, but people gave Germany shit too for "defending themselves" during WW2 so I guess people just don't get the bigger picture. I don't believe economic sanctions are the same thing as military attacks...
Then why do you ignore them?
Also,
On November 15 2012 16:17 BluePanther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 16:14 stfouri wrote:
Hamas and Israel.
You just can't pick sides, both are allmost as evil as another when it comes to bombing civilians.
Ofc Israel has media and US behind it (seriously wtf?). So they can just justify killing kids with bombs, cause "we got the bad guy too".
Holyshit it makes me angry to hear kids dying because of these idiots bombing eachother. With all due respect, the US befriending Israel is the only reason it HASN'T started a war yet. We restrain them immensely. And Israel puts up with a LOT of shit.
Nothing says 'immense restraint' like- $115'000'000'000 in foreign (mostly military) aid (updated source)
- 300 F-16
- 160 miliitary helicopters
- 100 F-15
- 50 F-4E Phantom
- 19 F-35
- 65'000 rifles
- 2500 grenade launchers
- 1500 machine guns
etc. (10-year old figures)
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On November 15 2012 16:30 Dagobert wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 16:22 BluePanther wrote:On November 15 2012 16:20 Dagobert wrote:On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote:
Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it. Yea, but people gave Germany shit too for "defending themselves" during WW2 so I guess people just don't get the bigger picture. I don't believe economic sanctions are the same thing as military attacks... Then why do you ignore them? Also, Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 16:17 BluePanther wrote:On November 15 2012 16:14 stfouri wrote:
Hamas and Israel.
You just can't pick sides, both are allmost as evil as another when it comes to bombing civilians.
Ofc Israel has media and US behind it (seriously wtf?). So they can just justify killing kids with bombs, cause "we got the bad guy too".
Holyshit it makes me angry to hear kids dying because of these idiots bombing eachother. With all due respect, the US befriending Israel is the only reason it HASN'T started a war yet. We restrain them immensely. And Israel puts up with a LOT of shit. Nothing says 'immense restraint' like - $81'000'000'000 in foreign aid
- 300 F-16
- 160 miliitary helicopters
- 100 F-15
- 50 F-4E Phantom
- 65'000 rifles
- 2500 grenade launchers
- 1500 machine guns
etc. (10-year old figures)
Restraining them from an all-out offensive, supporting their defensive and deterrence capabilities.
Sigh. Don't be so close-minded.
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This was the stupidest thing that could have been done. Maybe they forgot about the word "Retaliation". One assassination was enough to start World War I - with as much tension as there is in the area it just seems like we're asking for the world to end. What the f*** are people thinking? Sure he's a bad guy and the world might be better without him, I'm sure that Israeli officials would have the thought process and the means to do the same thing without killing innocent civilians and make it a public thing.
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On November 15 2012 16:34 fluidin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 16:30 Dagobert wrote:On November 15 2012 16:22 BluePanther wrote:On November 15 2012 16:20 Dagobert wrote:On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote:
Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it. Yea, but people gave Germany shit too for "defending themselves" during WW2 so I guess people just don't get the bigger picture. I don't believe economic sanctions are the same thing as military attacks... Then why do you ignore them? Also, On November 15 2012 16:17 BluePanther wrote:On November 15 2012 16:14 stfouri wrote:
Hamas and Israel.
You just can't pick sides, both are allmost as evil as another when it comes to bombing civilians.
Ofc Israel has media and US behind it (seriously wtf?). So they can just justify killing kids with bombs, cause "we got the bad guy too".
Holyshit it makes me angry to hear kids dying because of these idiots bombing eachother. With all due respect, the US befriending Israel is the only reason it HASN'T started a war yet. We restrain them immensely. And Israel puts up with a LOT of shit. Nothing says 'immense restraint' like - $81'000'000'000 in foreign aid (mostly military aid)
- 300 F-16
- 160 miliitary helicopters
- 100 F-15
- 50 F-4E Phantom
- 65'000 rifles
- 2500 grenade launchers
- 1500 machine guns
etc. (10-year old figures) Restraining them from an all-out offensive, supporting their defensive and deterrence capabilities. Sigh. Don't be so close-minded.
Ironic, considering you're the one buying into the propaganda.
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On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote:
Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it.
Nice bait.. no seriously, I almost replied with an elaborate answer.
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On November 15 2012 16:14 stfouri wrote:
Hamas and Israel.
You just can't pick sides, both are allmost as evil as another when it comes to bombing civilians.
Ofc Israel has media and US behind it (seriously wtf?). So they can just justify killing kids with bombs, cause "we got the bad guy too".
Holyshit it makes me angry to hear kids dying because of these idiots bombing eachother.
Agreed, this is pretty much my stance. As an Arab, I am obviously biased against Israel, but I also despise Hamas. Conditions wouldn't be this bad if Fatah was still in power. That being said however, I also despise the fact that some people here put the full blame on the Palestinians. Yes, they fired 100 rockets last week (which is absolutely terrible), but Israel is also slowly creating new illegal settlements on their land. This is apparent in the West Bank, but not so much apparent in Gaza. Why? Because Gaza is armed, it's as simple as that.
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On November 15 2012 10:57 WTFZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 10:44 Probe1 wrote:A few hours ago, Israeli IDF planes launched a strike on the Gaza strip in attempt to assassinate a Hamas leader, Ahmed al-Jabari. They succeeded, obliterating his car with him inside. At this point it was well over 12 hours ago. But whatever that doesn't matter I'm just being lame. I am confident that this will result in open war. I can't say Israel was unwarranted in their response to the continued attacks on her soil but this will result in war and more deaths. Is there really no diplomatic end? War will only strengthen the resolve of those that will harm Israeli civilians to further their goals. In the end it is a choice of who loses more civilians. It is one of the great tragedies of my lifetime. A war between who? The IDF would utterly crush any Palestinian offensive.
The only way they'd win would be with backing from basically every islamic power in the area (cough, iran) and with the implied threat of nukes, the odds of that happening.....
Although maybe I'm overestimating the intelligence on both sides.
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