On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote: Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it.
I wonder how you'd react when Cuba and Bolivia, backed by other countries, told you that all of the US is now limited to Alaska and the rest will now be called The Communist States of Chinaria and that you can't live there. Obviously, you'd want your land back, but with so many countries backing this new Chinaria, whose only claims to your land are to be found in their holy book of unknown origin, you can't do shit through international talks or anything. You try to fight back but this Chinaria gets nukes and other shit from its supporters and it just keeps sending rockets your way...
that wouldnt happen, the us is too much land to try and conquer plus almost everyone has firearms... i dont really see that comparison.
On November 15 2012 14:37 travis wrote: I will refrain from this discussion on the grounds of horrible but justified bias against israel.
I usually like reading your insight on situations, this saddens me. Having bias to one side or the other will occur on countless subjects but the ability to look passed that and address the events/situations is a skill not many have.
That "peace" treaty they set up a few months back lasted long.... >.<
These 2 countries are way to active military wise for their own good! It will all end in a mass war pretty soon, with America UK and the UN being drafted in to play peace maker and all the troops we send will end up dieing for another pointless cause >.<
On November 15 2012 17:44 Shelke14 wrote: As much as I am Anti-Israel and believe they don't actually have a right to the land they are currently occupying. Hamas isn't winning me over either. Shooting countless rockets into civilian territory no matter if they are guilty for being there or not does not equal to attempting to kill them and not except Israel to counter. The only reason Israel is still relevant and able to proceed is because of America backing it. I don't see the USA backing off its support either due to them needing Israel as an Ally in that area. Overall, does this mean I wish for Israel to lose all of its land and be sent off? No, not at all. I think we are passed that point now, Israel needs to stop pushing its housing into illegal territory to help its case on the international scene or else it will constantly be under negative light. Palestine/Hamas has a better chance for the UN to step in and take real action if they stop these rocket attacks and keep pressuring on the political level, they have dozens of backers and as time goes on and the international community sees the illegal activity by Israel for what it is, they will have to back down but...... these attacks on Israel and having civilians die will never allow them to be accepted in the UN. They almost had it last time and if they keep it up they can do but not this current way.
Here is to hoping a peaceful ending does occur sooner or later. War is not the answer, its 2012.... Hasn't humanity seen enough.
Humans tend to do stupid things when desperate. I think Israel actually wants those attacks in order to justify their plans to take all of Palestine.
Oh, of course. If Hamas doesn't attack, Israel cannot go on the offensive and continually take over land from Palestine. This is what I don't understand, Hamas is playing into Israel's military's hands (I'm not saying all of Israel's hands because I am sure some citizens do not want rockets fired at them). But think about it, having Hamas attack Israel with rockets that injury or kill civilians is the best case for them because it only strengthens and gives them better stance on taking over. All Israel has to do is wait for a few dozen attacks to occur and then just do one big strike back that will usually devastate Palestine due to the military force they have. Following that, they can expand.
On November 15 2012 17:54 Pandemona wrote: That "peace" treaty they set up a few months back lasted long.... >.<
These 2 countries are way to active military wise for their own good! It will all end in a mass war pretty soon, with America UK and the UN being drafted in to play peace maker and all the troops we send will end up dieing for another pointless cause >.<
Personally the day that America enters this with an actual force. They won't be doing it to keep the "peace" on both sides but to make a final push to get Palestine out and secure the whole region for Israel. Hamas needs to be careful because if they do go too far this will happen and in a blink of an eye there is no way they can stop the US.
On November 15 2012 17:19 Maasked wrote: Sigh... No offense to Isrealites but who the hell thinks they can just go bomb other countries and leaders of factions of militia without major reprocussions? this was the dumbest move ive seen by a country in a long time.
Nvm I shan't be so snark in my comments.
I assume you are unaware of the fact that for the past week rockets have been fired into Israel numbering a hundred or more. This was a deliberate retaliation, possibly amongst other underlying motivations.
On November 15 2012 17:54 Pandemona wrote: That "peace" treaty they set up a few months back lasted long.... >.<
These 2 countries are way to active military wise for their own good! It will all end in a mass war pretty soon, with America UK and the UN being drafted in to play peace maker and all the troops we send will end up dieing for another pointless cause >.<
Personally the day that America enters this with an actual force. They won't be doing it to keep the "peace" on both sides but to make a final push to get Palestine out and secure the whole region for Israel. Hamas needs to be careful because if they do go too far this will happen and in a blink of an eye there is no way they can stop the US.
That would be a pretty sad day. I think that will trigger the middle east to 100% extremism against US and the western world. These nations cannot defend themself in open wars. What is left for them is terrorism.
On November 15 2012 18:06 PiPoGevy wrote: Can somebody please close this thread, this issue is one that no non-middle eastern person will ever wrap their heads around...
with all due respect, some of us actually are capable of "wrapping our heads around it" just fine.
On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote: Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it.
I wonder how you'd react when Cuba and Bolivia, backed by other countries, told you that all of the US is now limited to Alaska and the rest will now be called The Communist States of Chinaria and that you can't live there. Obviously, you'd want your land back, but with so many countries backing this new Chinaria, whose only claims to your land are to be found in their holy book of unknown origin, you can't do shit through international talks or anything. You try to fight back but this Chinaria gets nukes and other shit from its supporters and it just keeps sending rockets your way...
it ain't that easy. Thousands of years ago, isael did not belong to the jews. Then they occupied it (according to the bible at least) as their holy land. Then lost it again (they all went into slavery in babylon iirc), got it again, and so forth. According to history about the crusades, it also swapped a couple of times between arabs and europeans. Fact is, there is no right or wrong on who owns the land, pretty much all of it is a grey area. I don't think the current palestine citizen can track their line down to people who lived there before the jews occupied it, but they have been living there for several hundred years. So yeah, everything is messed up, and the fact that the UK gave israel (or at least a part of it) to the jews after WW2 is reasonable (given that they had to suffer so much, being mostly innocent) but it does not help either. What does not help however is the fact, that israel gets bombed and attacked by rockets on a daily basis. This has severely diminished since they started to control everything with their superior military and the wall they build, so that was at least a success for the population that has to live in daily fear of a rocket exploding in their childs face. Also, since religion is involved, you cannot expect people to listen to reason. Religion is first of all a decision of faith after all. So there is never an easy solution. On a related subject, i am already pretty darn impressed that israel has never decided to destroy the Dome of the Rock, given that it is a holy place for the jews (actually the most holy of them all), and they had their main temple up there for quite some time. The arabs were not as kind when they conquerored Jerusalem, they destroyed the main jewish temple and build this ugly thing instead.
Ah, so many people starting their posts trying to be sympathetic and then rambling on into anti-semetic and/or anti-islamic racist ignorant bullshit.
People are dying needlessly in a conflict that has lasted thousands of years. Yes it is rooted in faith traditions and deep-rooted cultural tensions, but with modern human achievements comes the realization that there is no reason for this to continue. People do not need to kill each other because they are angry, it is as simple as that. I eagerly await the day we finally have to power to stop this senseless violence.
No one is without blood on their hands, neither Israel, nor Hamas, nor Palestine, nor the Christians, nor the Arabs, nor the Jews. There is no 'good side' or 'evil side', there is only baseless hatred and violence. No one is 'justified' and no one 'was there first' or 'has more claim to the land'. The land must be shared between people of every faith and culture, and we as human beings need to move past "revenge" and on towards "forgiveness".
Sadly, I do not think this hatred will be erased until humanity makes a major leap forward (technologically, or perhaps politically or socially). All we can hope for is that the policy makers can reduce violence to a minimum and extend any momentary peace treaties as long as they can.
On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote: Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it.
I wonder how you'd react when Cuba and Bolivia, backed by other countries, told you that all of the US is now limited to Alaska and the rest will now be called The Communist States of Chinaria and that you can't live there. Obviously, you'd want your land back, but with so many countries backing this new Chinaria, whose only claims to your land are to be found in their holy book of unknown origin, you can't do shit through international talks or anything. You try to fight back but this Chinaria gets nukes and other shit from its supporters and it just keeps sending rockets your way...
that wouldnt happen, the us is too much land to try and conquer plus almost everyone has firearms... i dont really see that comparison.
The reason you live there is because Europeans conquered it all in the first place... And whether you see it happening or not, an occupation is an occupation. Palestine didn't see it coming. Yet here we are. Palestine being occupied.
You can't fault them for fighting a war. They did not choose this. They can choose to give up and live peacefully with what they have left. Very few, if any, occupied populations do this unless severely outgunned and outmanned, and even then there are resistance groups. Either you fight the war or you don't. But don't judge those who fight by necessity, and don't get your tits in a twist when someone criticizes those who occupy a country.
On November 15 2012 17:44 Shelke14 wrote: As much as I am Anti-Israel and believe they don't actually have a right to the land they are currently occupying. Hamas isn't winning me over either. Shooting countless rockets into civilian territory no matter if they are guilty for being there or not does not equal to attempting to kill them and not except Israel to counter. The only reason Israel is still relevant and able to proceed is because of America backing it. I don't see the USA backing off its support either due to them needing Israel as an Ally in that area. Overall, does this mean I wish for Israel to lose all of its land and be sent off? No, not at all. I think we are passed that point now, Israel needs to stop pushing its housing into illegal territory to help its case on the international scene or else it will constantly be under negative light. Palestine/Hamas has a better chance for the UN to step in and take real action if they stop these rocket attacks and keep pressuring on the political level, they have dozens of backers and as time goes on and the international community sees the illegal activity by Israel for what it is, they will have to back down but...... these attacks on Israel and having civilians die will never allow them to be accepted in the UN. They almost had it last time and if they keep it up they can do but not this current way.
Here is to hoping a peaceful ending does occur sooner or later. War is not the answer, its 2012.... Hasn't humanity seen enough.
Humans tend to do stupid things when desperate. I think Israel actually wants those attacks in order to justify their plans to take all of Palestine.
Oh, of course. If Hamas doesn't attack, Israel cannot go on the offensive and continually take over land from Palestine. This is what I don't understand, Hamas is playing into Israel's military's hands (I'm not saying all of Israel's hands because I am sure some citizens do not want rockets fired at them). But think about it, having Hamas attack Israel with rockets that injury or kill civilians is the best case for them because it only strengthens and gives them better stance on taking over. All Israel has to do is wait for a few dozen attacks to occur and then just do one big strike back that will usually devastate Palestine due to the military force they have. Following that, they can expand.
I guess Hamas can choose Plan B: Starve to death whilst suffering from airstrikes at will. Most people are suffering from malnutrition, very little clean water and little or no electricity due to the blockade.
On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote: Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it.
I wonder how you'd react when Cuba and Bolivia, backed by other countries, told you that all of the US is now limited to Alaska and the rest will now be called The Communist States of Chinaria and that you can't live there. Obviously, you'd want your land back, but with so many countries backing this new Chinaria, whose only claims to your land are to be found in their holy book of unknown origin, you can't do shit through international talks or anything. You try to fight back but this Chinaria gets nukes and other shit from its supporters and it just keeps sending rockets your way...
that wouldnt happen, the us is too much land to try and conquer plus almost everyone has firearms... i dont really see that comparison.
The reason you live there is because Europeans conquered it all in the first place... And whether you see it happening or not, an occupation is an occupation. Palestine didn't see it coming. Yet here we are. Palestine being occupied.
i think it is more complicated then whats been posted. my opinion, is the original decision was good, but no one was thinking long term
On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote: Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it.
I wonder how you'd react when Cuba and Bolivia, backed by other countries, told you that all of the US is now limited to Alaska and the rest will now be called The Communist States of Chinaria and that you can't live there. Obviously, you'd want your land back, but with so many countries backing this new Chinaria, whose only claims to your land are to be found in their holy book of unknown origin, you can't do shit through international talks or anything. You try to fight back but this Chinaria gets nukes and other shit from its supporters and it just keeps sending rockets your way...
it ain't that easy. Thousands of years ago, isael did not belong to the jews. Then they occupied it (according to the bible at least) as their holy land. Then lost it again (they all went into slavery in babylon iirc), got it again, and so forth. According to history about the crusades, it also swapped a couple of times between arabs and europeans. Fact is, there is no right or wrong on who owns the land, pretty much all of it is a grey area. I don't think the current palestine citizen can track their line down to people who lived there before the jews occupied it, but they have been living there for several hundred years. So yeah, everything is messed up, and the fact that the UK gave israel (or at least a part of it) to the jews after WW2 is reasonable (given that they had to suffer so much, being mostly innocent) but it does not help either. What does not help however is the fact, that israel gets bombed and attacked by rockets on a daily basis. This has severely diminished since they started to control everything with their superior military and the wall they build, so that was at least a success for the population that has to live in daily fear of a rocket exploding in their childs face. Also, since religion is involved, you cannot expect people to listen to reason. Religion is first of all a decision of faith after all. So there is never an easy solution. On a related subject, i am already pretty darn impressed that israel has never decided to destroy the Dome of the Rock, given that it is a holy place for the jews (actually the most holy of them all), and they had their main temple up there for quite some time. The arabs were not as kind when they conquerored Jerusalem, they destroyed the main jewish temple and build this ugly thing instead.
Just one thing.
Britain didn't give up their mandate on Palestine because they felt sorry for the Jews, they let it expire because Jewish terrorists were wreaking havoc in the area and the British wanted to cut their losses. The subsequent UN partitioning resolution (and major politicking by the U.S.), however, was in part due to sympathy for the Jews.
On November 15 2012 17:54 Pandemona wrote: That "peace" treaty they set up a few months back lasted long.... >.<
These 2 countries are way to active military wise for their own good! It will all end in a mass war pretty soon, with America UK and the UN being drafted in to play peace maker and all the troops we send will end up dieing for another pointless cause >.<
Personally the day that America enters this with an actual force. They won't be doing it to keep the "peace" on both sides but to make a final push to get Palestine out and secure the whole region for Israel. Hamas needs to be careful because if they do go too far this will happen and in a blink of an eye there is no way they can stop the US.
That would be a pretty sad day. I think that will trigger the middle east to 100% extremism against US and the western world. These nations cannot defend themself in open wars. What is left for them is terrorism.
Not to mention the fact that the US and its allies would essentially be forced to form a military occupation and complete control over almost every oil-rich nation in the middle east. Assuming they didn't, the likely retaliation and unrest would skyrocket oil prices and literally destroy the US economy, and with it, the entire developed world's economy. Complete anarchy. No peace, no cheap oil; no cheap oil, no global economy.
On November 15 2012 17:54 Pandemona wrote: That "peace" treaty they set up a few months back lasted long.... >.<
These 2 countries are way to active military wise for their own good! It will all end in a mass war pretty soon, with America UK and the UN being drafted in to play peace maker and all the troops we send will end up dieing for another pointless cause >.<
Personally the day that America enters this with an actual force. They won't be doing it to keep the "peace" on both sides but to make a final push to get Palestine out and secure the whole region for Israel. Hamas needs to be careful because if they do go too far this will happen and in a blink of an eye there is no way they can stop the US.
That would be a pretty sad day. I think that will trigger the middle east to 100% extremism against US and the western world. These nations cannot defend themself in open wars. What is left for them is terrorism.
Not to mention the fact that the US and its allies would essentially be forced to form a military occupation and complete control over almost every oil-rich nation in the middle east. Assuming they didn't, the likely retaliation and unrest would skyrocket oil prices and literally destroy the US economy, and with it, the entire developed world's economy. Complete anarchy. No peace, no cheap oil; no cheap oil, no global economy.
While it would no doubt hurt, it would NOT be the second dark ages... Our electrical grid is mostly fueled by coal, not oil. Oil (1.8%) is dwarfed by hydro and is basically equivalent to wind power generation (read again, not much). Sure, transportation costs would go up and driving would go down, but it's not like it'd be catastrophic or the beginning of anarchy... We get less than 20% of our oil from that region, and more than half of that from the Saudis alone.
On November 15 2012 18:06 PiPoGevy wrote: Can somebody please close this thread, this issue is one that no non-middle eastern person will ever wrap their heads around...
with all due respect, some of us actually are capable of "wrapping our heads around it" just fine.
EPT
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