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On October 25 2011 21:37 michielbrands wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 21:32 fleeze wrote:well, that's teamliquid. sc:bw biased as hell. i would agree that the BW pro scene in KOREA is ahead and every switching progamer will make a huge impact. but for the foreign scene the same can be said about WC3. BW was non-existent compared to WC3 in europe. WC3 had a VERY competitive scene and many huge tournaments. nowadays it's called ESPORTS and attributed solely to SC2 / SC:BW. a pretty big mistake since the foreign scene and tournaments mostly emerged out of the WC3 scene. there were IEMs, ESWCs, WCGs, Zotac Cups, Go4WC3s, etc. before. they just played WC3 which was unnoticed and denounced on teamliquid. not to forget the other big esports titles: CS 1.6, Quake, UT, even FIFA. On October 03 2011 13:35 Naniwa wrote:On October 03 2011 13:16 Valikyr wrote:
Thanks, great interview but I dont quite agree with his views on WC3. Feels like he is saying that partly because he was a failed progamer in that game (but yes ofc both BW and SC2 is more competetive).
Naniwa fighting though! was there any successful undead progamer ? xD also i never played wc3 fulltime ^^ Sweet was a very successful undead pro. Ted was good too, but never really on the top. You blame TL for focussing on sc:bw? that's there soul? Be glad they don't spend time/effort to the cs 1.6, quake etc. scene. Then this would be just another website filled with annoying kids.
sorry sounded a bit ranty 
i don't blame tl for the focus but for ignoring everything the WC3 scene achieved in foreign ESPORTS. without WC3, SC2 would be nowhere as big as it is now. and for using SC and ESPORTS as synonyms which they aren't. esports would exist, even without sc2.
On October 25 2011 21:50 Mandalor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 21:32 fleeze wrote:
well, that's teamliquid. sc:bw biased as hell.
i would agree that the BW pro scene in KOREA is ahead and every switching progamer will make a huge impact.
but for the foreign scene the same can be said about WC3. BW was non-existent compared to WC3 in europe. WC3 had a VERY competitive scene and many huge tournaments.
nowadays it's called ESPORTS and attributed solely to SC2 / SC:BW. a pretty big mistake since the foreign scene and tournaments mostly emerged out of the WC3 scene.
there were IEMs, ESWCs, WCGs, Zotac Cups, Go4WC3s, etc. before. they just played WC3 which was unnoticed and denounced on teamliquid.
not to forget the other big esports titles: CS 1.6, Quake, UT, even FIFA.
why do people always have to take things personally. Saying the competive scene of wc3 is a lot smaller and less competive than the bw scene in korea is not denouncing the game of wc3! At all. You absolutely cannot compare foreign wc3 with bw in korea. That's not hate, bias or anything. Educate yourself, look at how strict the training for pro-gamers is in their respective games. Look at how many people there are who consider pro-gaming their job in each game. Look at the number and the size of professional gaming teams and the huge prize pool tournaments in each game.
i didn't compare foreign WC3 with BW in korea... but before SC2, WC3 and CS where the pillars of esports outside of korea. would you argue with that statement?
None of the tournaments you listed are of any importance, be it prize money or density of competition compared to proleagues. I mean you bring in zotac cups and go4sc2. Are you kidding? No pro-gamers plays these today unless they're incredibly bored. And that's sc2 pro-gamers. No bw pro would ever participate in sth like this, ever.
WHAT? are you kidding... i mentioned IEM, ESWC and WCG! the only BIG tourneys missing are TSL (obviously :D), IPL (new) and MLG (halo / console lol). i could add Dreamhack, Assembly, ASUS ROG, etc... nearly all big tourney had WC3 before SC2...
btw, i mentioned the weekly tourneys because they are popular and important for the community. and have their roots in the beginning of WC3 (Go4Wc3, the mother of weeklys.).
WC3 is a great game and players like Grubby and Moon had amazing accomplishments, but their tournament wins don't feel a lot different than players winning huge FIFA tournaments. It's just not as amazing of a feat as winning proleague(s), because the competition is a lot weaker.
you didn't follow the scene then. there was a lot of competition (though lower as in BW/korea). and Creolophus winning the WCG against sky or Grubby beating Moon are some of the greatest games in ESPORTS.
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There is no hate for wc3 players.
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I don't even understand how this thread even exists.
OP says many degrade wc3 players and I just don't see it in any of TL's threads.
I've read a lot of praise for Stephano, Sase, Sjow, Nani, Thorzain, players which give good matches regardless where they come from.
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Also this is primarily a starcraft site. Of course there's going to be more discussion of brood war pros on here than warcraft. If famous DOW player gets into SC2 people on the DOW forums are going to talk about him. If famous BW player gets into SC2 people on BW forums are going to talk about him.
You can't expect the people who only watched BW to be familiar with WC3 players.
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Warcraft 3 = Strategy/Execution , very little macro, emphasis purely on unit control and micro.
Starcraft 2 = Strategy/Execution, Alot of macro.
Thus in my opinion, Starcraft 2 is a harder game ( yes i am a warcraft 3 player, we have to admit this)
However, there was no such thing as "cheese" in warcraft 3, that is a new term given for a word that i first heard about when i came to the Starcraft scene. Cheese is basically non-existent in warcraft 3 because heroes and natural base defense is overpowered early game . So what that means is that it was literally impossible for an inferior player to win just based of his strategy alone. In warcraft strategy's alone will never beat anyone good, So with that said, Warcraft 3 is a lil less volatile , but thats what makes the best starcraft 2 players even better than warcraft 3 players, because they have to prepare for soooooooooooo much different strategy's that the best players usually are capable of holding off everything and varying up their strategy's alot and mindfucking you to death . Unless you were nightelf in warcraft 3, you literally only had 1 maybe 2 strategys per matchup.Everything was cookie cutter to the core and that's what ultimately killed warcraft 3, it got sooooooooooooooo stale and robotic, whereas broodwar you kept seeing new stuff all the time.
So in my opinion .. Whether you come from starcraft or warcraft , with enough time and talent, it doesn't matter what your background is. You either have or you don't.
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On October 25 2011 22:25 jinixxx123 wrote:
Warcraft 3 = Strategy/Execution , very little macro, emphasis purely on unit control and micro.
Starcraft 2 = Strategy/Execution, Alot of macro.
Thus in my opinion, Starcraft 2 is a harder game ( yes i am a warcraft 3 player, we have to admit this)
However, there was no such thing as "cheese" in warcraft 3, that is a new term given for a word that i first heard about when i came to the Starcraft scene. Cheese is basically non-existent in warcraft 3 because heroes and natural base defense is overpowered early game . So what that means is that it was literally impossible for an inferior player to win just based of his strategy alone. In warcraft strategy's alone will never beat anyone good, So with that said, Warcraft 3 is a lil less volatile , but thats what makes the best starcraft 2 players even better than warcraft 3 players, because they have to prepare for soooooooooooo much different strategy's that the best players usually are capable of holding off everything and varying up their strategy's alot . Unless you were nightelf in warcraft 3, you literally only had 1 maybe 2 strategys per matchup.Everything was cookie cutter to the core and that's what ultimately killed warcraft 3, it got sooooooooooooooo stale and robotic, whereas broodwar you kept seeing new stuff all the time.
So in my opinion .. Whether you come from starcraft or warcraft , with enough time and talent, it doesn't matter what your background is. You either have or you don't.
lol how much wacrraft 3 did u play? Tower rushes form humans and even orcs.., early wc3 ancient pushes with mass ancients..... the is cheese in every game going. So I dont think we should say that cheese only came to light because of starcraft lol
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There's so much knowledge to optain in WC3, that is needed.
A semi pro would never beat a pro in Wc3, unlike now in Sc2
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What the hell is this?
What hate are you talking about?
But we (wc3ers) have our bonjwas who probably will never play sc2
What the hell? Many of the top level WC3 players are in SC2 now...
even tho I didnt played a single be game and dont really care about their bw success.
Uhhhh... are you okay? Are you like having a stroke while writing this?
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I wouldnt count them out cuz Grubby or ToD started wc4.
Are you writing this from the future?!
The reason why top level WC3 players have broken into the international scene but not in Korea is because the international scene is still at a slightly lower skill level. Not to mention that WC3 was never as big in Korea as it was in Europe or China. That's all. There's no hate, a good chunk of TLers are former WC3 players. I do not understand the point you are trying to make or how WC4 fits into this argument.
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since they made everything that was hard from BW auto in sc2 ofc there wont be any "+" for bw players. Automining destroyed a lot that required a lot of skill from BW.
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This happens in real life all the time, we dont live in a world where talking positively about yourself is accepted, we tend to slam people who even hint that they think they are something great.
Instead, to make us look better we slam the other guy.
Is there anything in this community, whether it be a tournament, game unit, player, caster, map is generally "liked" by almost everyone? There are people who outright hate on Day9, Teamliquid and Tastosis.
That is just how online communities tend to be, the vocal negative minority is always the loudest and they hate everything and everyone. Being affiliated with WarCraft 3 is a easy way to slam a player, thus when Grubby or Moon lose they can spout the tired shit "lol war3 players"
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Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
Because sadly, half of the community (or more) consists of sad angry teenage nerds that only want their 'own thing' to be 'awesome' and 'succeed'. Its the same with the hate for LoL, wow, or any other game. It's pathetic and selfish. Other stuff than BW or Sc2 can be awesome, people have different opinions or experiences.
The fact that about half the people here try to make WC3 as the less skilled game is in itself absolutely pathetic. Its what the BW players say about SC2, the chess players say about checkers, and so on.
Ex-Wc3 players are amazing at SC2, and lets thank everyone that the two communities united half decently.
Other stuff than BW or Sc2 can be awesome, people have different opinions or experiences. LoL frequently has more viewers than SC2, omg!!11 Be happy that people are enjoying a game. Teen angst ftl.
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On October 25 2011 22:47 Tommylew wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 22:25 jinixxx123 wrote:
Warcraft 3 = Strategy/Execution , very little macro, emphasis purely on unit control and micro.
Starcraft 2 = Strategy/Execution, Alot of macro.
Thus in my opinion, Starcraft 2 is a harder game ( yes i am a warcraft 3 player, we have to admit this)
However, there was no such thing as "cheese" in warcraft 3, that is a new term given for a word that i first heard about when i came to the Starcraft scene. Cheese is basically non-existent in warcraft 3 because heroes and natural base defense is overpowered early game . So what that means is that it was literally impossible for an inferior player to win just based of his strategy alone. In warcraft strategy's alone will never beat anyone good, So with that said, Warcraft 3 is a lil less volatile , but thats what makes the best starcraft 2 players even better than warcraft 3 players, because they have to prepare for soooooooooooo much different strategy's that the best players usually are capable of holding off everything and varying up their strategy's alot . Unless you were nightelf in warcraft 3, you literally only had 1 maybe 2 strategys per matchup.Everything was cookie cutter to the core and that's what ultimately killed warcraft 3, it got sooooooooooooooo stale and robotic, whereas broodwar you kept seeing new stuff all the time.
So in my opinion .. Whether you come from starcraft or warcraft , with enough time and talent, it doesn't matter what your background is. You either have or you don't. lol how much wacrraft 3 did u play? Tower rushes form humans and even orcs.., early wc3 ancient pushes with mass ancients..... the is cheese in every game going. So I dont think we should say that cheese only came to light because of starcraft lol
true, i mean orcs pretty much cheesed every game with blademaster :D
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It's funny that WC3 is considered to be easier. All in all, I'd agree, but really it's a totally different game.
I was a big fan of WC3 and watching WC3 pro gaming is what got me into esports.
Even though I practiced tons though, I never really got good at WC3. I'm way better at SC2... Master's League. So again, different games. If you looked at my personal account you'd say "Oh WC3 must be harder", but obviously that's not the case. I'm more of a macro gamer and prefer the grand picture to the individual tactics, which is why I think I am decent as a Zerg in SC2 but could never really get great at the totally micro-focused WC3.
It's not that my micro was bad in WC3, but I just couldn't take advantage of my macro, as there really was no macro in WC3.
Anyhow, respect great gamers from all games. We have some amazing players from BW, WC3 and even elsewhere (TLO played Supreme Commander). People still on this argument need to realize it's dead... it's been proven over and over that the non-BW guys are doing just fine.
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Because they're better than the BW players and BW players are spiteful.
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On October 25 2011 23:03 empty.bottle wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 22:47 Tommylew wrote:On October 25 2011 22:25 jinixxx123 wrote:
Warcraft 3 = Strategy/Execution , very little macro, emphasis purely on unit control and micro.
Starcraft 2 = Strategy/Execution, Alot of macro.
Thus in my opinion, Starcraft 2 is a harder game ( yes i am a warcraft 3 player, we have to admit this)
However, there was no such thing as "cheese" in warcraft 3, that is a new term given for a word that i first heard about when i came to the Starcraft scene. Cheese is basically non-existent in warcraft 3 because heroes and natural base defense is overpowered early game . So what that means is that it was literally impossible for an inferior player to win just based of his strategy alone. In warcraft strategy's alone will never beat anyone good, So with that said, Warcraft 3 is a lil less volatile , but thats what makes the best starcraft 2 players even better than warcraft 3 players, because they have to prepare for soooooooooooo much different strategy's that the best players usually are capable of holding off everything and varying up their strategy's alot . Unless you were nightelf in warcraft 3, you literally only had 1 maybe 2 strategys per matchup.Everything was cookie cutter to the core and that's what ultimately killed warcraft 3, it got sooooooooooooooo stale and robotic, whereas broodwar you kept seeing new stuff all the time.
So in my opinion .. Whether you come from starcraft or warcraft , with enough time and talent, it doesn't matter what your background is. You either have or you don't. lol how much wacrraft 3 did u play? Tower rushes form humans and even orcs.., early wc3 ancient pushes with mass ancients..... the is cheese in every game going. So I dont think we should say that cheese only came to light because of starcraft lol true, i mean orcs pretty much cheesed every game with blademaster :D
And warcraft had 3 bonjwas and prestigious warleague. It was a good times. No disrespect to WC and WC2
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United States23455 Posts
On October 25 2011 23:05 villageidiot wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 23:03 empty.bottle wrote:On October 25 2011 22:47 Tommylew wrote:On October 25 2011 22:25 jinixxx123 wrote:
Warcraft 3 = Strategy/Execution , very little macro, emphasis purely on unit control and micro.
Starcraft 2 = Strategy/Execution, Alot of macro.
Thus in my opinion, Starcraft 2 is a harder game ( yes i am a warcraft 3 player, we have to admit this)
However, there was no such thing as "cheese" in warcraft 3, that is a new term given for a word that i first heard about when i came to the Starcraft scene. Cheese is basically non-existent in warcraft 3 because heroes and natural base defense is overpowered early game . So what that means is that it was literally impossible for an inferior player to win just based of his strategy alone. In warcraft strategy's alone will never beat anyone good, So with that said, Warcraft 3 is a lil less volatile , but thats what makes the best starcraft 2 players even better than warcraft 3 players, because they have to prepare for soooooooooooo much different strategy's that the best players usually are capable of holding off everything and varying up their strategy's alot . Unless you were nightelf in warcraft 3, you literally only had 1 maybe 2 strategys per matchup.Everything was cookie cutter to the core and that's what ultimately killed warcraft 3, it got sooooooooooooooo stale and robotic, whereas broodwar you kept seeing new stuff all the time.
So in my opinion .. Whether you come from starcraft or warcraft , with enough time and talent, it doesn't matter what your background is. You either have or you don't. lol how much wacrraft 3 did u play? Tower rushes form humans and even orcs.., early wc3 ancient pushes with mass ancients..... the is cheese in every game going. So I dont think we should say that cheese only came to light because of starcraft lol true, i mean orcs pretty much cheesed every game with blademaster :D And warcraft had 3 bonjwas and prestigious warleague. It was a good times. No disrespect to WC and WC2
Anywhere I can learn more about the WC3 bonjwas and this Warleague? I want to learn more about WC3.
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TL posters in general rejected war3 for being what was thought of as an easier game with worse mechanics. But it's all sort of become muddied with hypocrisy now that TL openly embraces SC2 which is an easier game with worse mechanics
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On October 25 2011 23:07 Fionn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 23:05 villageidiot wrote:On October 25 2011 23:03 empty.bottle wrote:On October 25 2011 22:47 Tommylew wrote:On October 25 2011 22:25 jinixxx123 wrote:
Warcraft 3 = Strategy/Execution , very little macro, emphasis purely on unit control and micro.
Starcraft 2 = Strategy/Execution, Alot of macro.
Thus in my opinion, Starcraft 2 is a harder game ( yes i am a warcraft 3 player, we have to admit this)
However, there was no such thing as "cheese" in warcraft 3, that is a new term given for a word that i first heard about when i came to the Starcraft scene. Cheese is basically non-existent in warcraft 3 because heroes and natural base defense is overpowered early game . So what that means is that it was literally impossible for an inferior player to win just based of his strategy alone. In warcraft strategy's alone will never beat anyone good, So with that said, Warcraft 3 is a lil less volatile , but thats what makes the best starcraft 2 players even better than warcraft 3 players, because they have to prepare for soooooooooooo much different strategy's that the best players usually are capable of holding off everything and varying up their strategy's alot . Unless you were nightelf in warcraft 3, you literally only had 1 maybe 2 strategys per matchup.Everything was cookie cutter to the core and that's what ultimately killed warcraft 3, it got sooooooooooooooo stale and robotic, whereas broodwar you kept seeing new stuff all the time.
So in my opinion .. Whether you come from starcraft or warcraft , with enough time and talent, it doesn't matter what your background is. You either have or you don't. lol how much wacrraft 3 did u play? Tower rushes form humans and even orcs.., early wc3 ancient pushes with mass ancients..... the is cheese in every game going. So I dont think we should say that cheese only came to light because of starcraft lol true, i mean orcs pretty much cheesed every game with blademaster :D And warcraft had 3 bonjwas and prestigious warleague. It was a good times. No disrespect to WC and WC2 Anywhere I can learn more about the WC3 bonjwas and this Warleague? I want to learn more about WC3.
Was joking around. before BW, WC3 and SC2 there were many strategy games.
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On October 25 2011 22:59 Beyonder wrote:
Because sadly, half of the community (or more) consists of sad angry teenage nerds that only want their 'own thing' to be 'awesome' and 'succeed'. Its the same with the hate for LoL, wow, or any other game. It's pathetic and selfish. Other stuff than BW or Sc2 can be awesome, people have different opinions or experiences.
The fact that about half the people here try to make WC3 as the less skilled game is in itself absolutely pathetic. Its what the BW players say about SC2, the chess players say about checkers, and so on.
Ex-Wc3 players are amazing at SC2, and lets thank everyone that the two communities united half decently.
Other stuff than BW or Sc2 can be awesome, people have different opinions or experiences. LoL frequently has more viewers than SC2, omg!!11 Be happy that people are enjoying a game. Teen angst ftl.
I think this everytime i see someone shitting on a different e-sport. Blizzcon qualifiers and IPL3 come to mind.
Why would you want to shit over someone elses passion ? They love that game just as much as you love yours -__-. Can't you just be happy for them ?
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In the beginning(like2010) there was a debate wether or not wc3 players were inferior to former BW players because some thought the two games requiers different skillsets and therefore 1 of the two should be better off starting sc2. Now that the dust have settled I think it's fair to say foreign wc3 players are as good as foreign BW players.
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Actually wonder where Johan/Nani said that cause tbh when I spoke with him in the past he always spoke very highly of wc3 oO, he loved the game and had a lot of passion for it from time to time I could know since we were teammates for quite a while, he did pick a rather unfortunate race but then again, it was mostly about the maps. There's actually a lot of nonsense in this thread ;D wonder how many of you actually played Wc3 ;p. Saying Wc3 was easy is bullshit , if anything everybody who ever played and followed the pro scene closely knew that upsets did not happen _very_ often, just because there was an insane amount of skill and every single season you'd see the same guys (grubby/tod/creo/deadman) with the best win records in Wc3l since it was just _VERY_ hard for an inferior player to beat a guy thats actually better than you ( While as we all know, this happens quite often in SC2 , ask Greg!  ), Orc Vs UD was prolly the match-up where this happened the most, but even then, if the UD was really better he'd win most of the time. Just the simple fact that it was the same guys winning over and over again ( yet wc3 was INCREDIBLE competitive + a ton of guys REALLY tryed to be _that_ good ) shows there was a ton of skill in this game, I mean HuK and Stephano are really tearing it up lately, but its still absolutely nothing compared to what Grubby did in late 2004 till Summer 2005, it didn't matter which tournament he attended, everybody knew he was going to win, won like 4/5/6 massive tournaments on a row ;D if that ain't skill, I wonder what is ,
aa anyway to much text, to much passion when I'm writing bout Wc3 ;D, missing dem good old days <3 ;D hf with the discussion
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On October 25 2011 23:07 floor exercise wrote:
TL posters in general rejected war3 for being what was thought of as an easier game with worse mechanics. But it's all sort of become muddied with hypocrisy now that TL openly embraces SC2 which is an easier game with worse mechanics
RandomSC2caster, randomSC2Pro and randomSC2industryworker: SC2 is bad game but we make money from it so it's okay, so be hyped people cause my fridge is empty today.
Well it sounds bad, isn't?
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EPT
