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On October 25 2011 21:32 fleeze wrote:well, that's teamliquid. sc:bw biased as hell. i would agree that the BW pro scene in KOREA is ahead and every switching progamer will make a huge impact. but for the foreign scene the same can be said about WC3. BW was non-existent compared to WC3 in europe. WC3 had a VERY competitive scene and many huge tournaments. nowadays it's called ESPORTS and attributed solely to SC2 / SC:BW. a pretty big mistake since the foreign scene and tournaments mostly emerged out of the WC3 scene. there were IEMs, ESWCs, WCGs, Zotac Cups, Go4WC3s, etc. before. they just played WC3 which was unnoticed and denounced on teamliquid. not to forget the other big esports titles: CS 1.6, Quake, UT, even FIFA. Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 13:35 Naniwa wrote:On October 03 2011 13:16 Valikyr wrote:
Thanks, great interview but I dont quite agree with his views on WC3. Feels like he is saying that partly because he was a failed progamer in that game (but yes ofc both BW and SC2 is more competetive).
Naniwa fighting though! was there any successful undead progamer ? xD also i never played wc3 fulltime ^^ Sweet was a very successful undead pro. Ted was good too, but never really on the top.
You blame TL for focussing on sc:bw? that's there soul?
Be glad they don't spend time/effort to the cs 1.6, quake etc. scene. Then this would be just another website filled with annoying kids.
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On October 25 2011 20:47 RevThirteen wrote:
There's a bias because SC1 is way more competetive and requires way higher skill then W3.
Start playing WC3 now and play for 10 hours/day for 5 years and someone like Moon will still crush you without losing a single unit. You can't сompare "skill" in different games, because they require a totally different skillset.
SC1 players are more used to training houses and such in Korea, because the BW scene was just more professional, but that doesn't mean that those players are more talented or have more "skill" per se.
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i dont see any hate
its not surprosing either that top europeans played wc3 before cause BW was basically dead and in Korea it just was the other way round (BW big, wc3 dead).
besides that you didnt even mention Polt who is by far the most successfull former wc3 player from korea
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On October 25 2011 21:01 Nawe wrote:
Whether is old or new debate I see often flame wars and wanted to know reason. Naniwa was anywhere near top level and he is not really man spoke man of wc3. If Grubby say that I will understand. I understand BW was slightly harder but many of you does not see some things in wc3 just like we dont see in BW.
I don't know about that. I've followed WC3 for years and years, it took me about 3 BW-VoD's to realize BW is a superior game in every way. 
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I see the bias and ignorance all the time from the likes of Tasteless"blabla he is from wc3 so he has a lot to prove, wc3 players are known for their micro but not their macro" etc etc.
It's obviously rubbish, ex Wc3 players totally dominate in Europe, so it doesn't really matter. It's a new game, and it's been proven that skills can transfer from either game.
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On October 25 2011 21:28 michielbrands wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 20:44 blackbrrd wrote:
In my eyes there is no hate, maybe a bit of bias, but not that much. Good micro, but bad macro is something often attributed to wc3 players. Imo Stephano has some of the best macro I've seen...But I get your point.... the strength of most wc3 players is their micro (except SjoW  )
Stephano, Thorzain, Sjow, Lyn don't really have micro as their best quality and strength, nor is it a key element they rely on in their playstyle. I wouldn't say any other ex-WC3 player stands out due to his micro. In fact when you look at the top micro players of SC2 (MKP, MC, Huk come to mind), none of them have WC3 background either.
Point being, there really isn't much of the WC3 micro ability that carried over to SC2. Best former WC3 players are doing well in SC2 simply because of the hard work they put in learning and practicing SC2, and almost none of them rely their WC3 skillset anymore.
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On October 25 2011 21:32 fleeze wrote:
well, that's teamliquid. sc:bw biased as hell.
i would agree that the BW pro scene in KOREA is ahead and every switching progamer will make a huge impact.
but for the foreign scene the same can be said about WC3. BW was non-existent compared to WC3 in europe. WC3 had a VERY competitive scene and many huge tournaments.
nowadays it's called ESPORTS and attributed solely to SC2 / SC:BW. a pretty big mistake since the foreign scene and tournaments mostly emerged out of the WC3 scene.
there were IEMs, ESWCs, WCGs, Zotac Cups, Go4WC3s, etc. before. they just played WC3 which was unnoticed and denounced on teamliquid.
not to forget the other big esports titles: CS 1.6, Quake, UT, even FIFA.
why do people always have to take things personally. Saying the competive scene of wc3 is a lot smaller and less competive than the bw scene in korea is not denouncing the game of wc3! At all.
You absolutely cannot compare foreign wc3 with bw in korea. That's not hate, bias or anything.
Educate yourself, look at how strict the training for pro-gamers is in their respective games. Look at how many people there are who consider pro-gaming their job in each game. Look at the number and the size of professional gaming teams and the huge prize pool tournaments in each game.
None of the tournaments you listed are of any importance, be it prize money or density of competition compared to proleagues. I mean you bring in zotac cups and go4sc2. Are you kidding? No pro-gamers plays these today unless they're incredibly bored. And that's sc2 pro-gamers. No bw pro would ever participate in sth like this, ever.
WC3 is a great game and players like Grubby and Moon had amazing accomplishments, but their tournament wins don't feel a lot different than players winning huge FIFA tournaments. It's just not as amazing of a feat as winning proleague(s), because the competition is a lot weaker.
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On October 25 2011 21:28 michielbrands wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 20:44 blackbrrd wrote:
In my eyes there is no hate, maybe a bit of bias, but not that much. Good micro, but bad macro is something often attributed to wc3 players. Imo Stephano has some of the best macro I've seen...But I get your point.... the strength of most wc3 players is their micro (except SjoW )
Stephano, Thorzain, Sjow, Lyn don't really have micro as their best quality and strength, nor is it a key element they rely on in their playstyle. I wouldn't say any other ex-WC3 player stands out due to his micro. In fact when you look at the top micro players of SC2 (MKP, MC, Huk come to mind), none of them have WC3 background either.
Point being, there really isn't much of the WC3 micro ability that carried over to SC2. Best former WC3 players are doing well in SC2 simply because of the hard work they put in learning and practicing SC2, and almost none of them rely on their WC3 skillset anymore.
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yeah its always been along the lines of wc3 micro and sc:bw macro.. i dunno abit of bias from both ways,
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There is "WC" in game name?
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Obviously a site dedicated to starcraft is going to be hyped about starcraft players...
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On October 25 2011 21:49 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 21:28 michielbrands wrote:On October 25 2011 20:44 blackbrrd wrote:
In my eyes there is no hate, maybe a bit of bias, but not that much. Good micro, but bad macro is something often attributed to wc3 players. Imo Stephano has some of the best macro I've seen...But I get your point.... the strength of most wc3 players is their micro (except SjoW ) Stephano, Thorzain, Sjow, Lyn don't really have micro as their best quality and strength, nor is it a key element they rely on in their playstyle. I wouldn't say any other ex-WC3 player stands out due to his micro. In fact when you look at the top micro players of SC2 (MKP, MC, Huk come to mind), none of them have WC3 background either. Point being, there really isn't much of the WC3 micro ability that carried over to SC2. Best former WC3 players are doing well in SC2 simply because of the hard work they put in learning and practicing SC2, and almost none of them rely their WC3 skillset anymore.
Grubby / SaSe are more micro players, especially Grubby has great micro with his forcefield placings etc.
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More bias, not really hate, like so many others already pointed out. None of the pros really goes "LOL LOL Warcraft3 PRO NOOB!!!" and then expect a easy win just because they are warcraft3 player.
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On October 25 2011 21:37 michielbrands wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 21:32 fleeze wrote:well, that's teamliquid. sc:bw biased as hell. i would agree that the BW pro scene in KOREA is ahead and every switching progamer will make a huge impact. but for the foreign scene the same can be said about WC3. BW was non-existent compared to WC3 in europe. WC3 had a VERY competitive scene and many huge tournaments. nowadays it's called ESPORTS and attributed solely to SC2 / SC:BW. a pretty big mistake since the foreign scene and tournaments mostly emerged out of the WC3 scene. there were IEMs, ESWCs, WCGs, Zotac Cups, Go4WC3s, etc. before. they just played WC3 which was unnoticed and denounced on teamliquid. not to forget the other big esports titles: CS 1.6, Quake, UT, even FIFA. On October 03 2011 13:35 Naniwa wrote:On October 03 2011 13:16 Valikyr wrote:
Thanks, great interview but I dont quite agree with his views on WC3. Feels like he is saying that partly because he was a failed progamer in that game (but yes ofc both BW and SC2 is more competetive).
Naniwa fighting though! was there any successful undead progamer ? xD also i never played wc3 fulltime ^^ Sweet was a very successful undead pro. Ted was good too, but never really on the top. You blame TL for focussing on sc:bw? that's there soul? Be glad they don't spend time/effort to the cs 1.6, quake etc. scene. Then this would be just another website filled with annoying kids.
No, he says that the people on tl skew more towards broodwar, considering that this site was a broodwar forum up till now.
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The best sc2 players are former washed up sc1 pros or b teamers who could barely win games. Any other person from another game will be considered inferior as sc1 was by far the harder game.
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Naniwa was never something good in WC3 and he's owning the SC2 scene. Can't really count his words for anything. I do agree SC1 is a somewhat harder game, mechanic wise than WC3, but SC2 is also easier than WC3, so far imo.
WC3 also has years to grow you know, to get to length of BW, i'm sure chinese will carry on keeping the scene alive.
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On October 25 2011 20:47 RevThirteen wrote:
There's a bias because SC1 is way more competetive and requires way higher skill then W3. Even Naniwa, who did play W3 competetivly for several years said that he doesn't think W3 deserves to be a sport.
naniwa isnt really a good example to use. you think his reputation was bad at the beginning of sc2? it was way worse in war3 and he wasnt even a "superstar"
he was also extremely young
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On October 25 2011 21:50 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 21:28 michielbrands wrote:On October 25 2011 20:44 blackbrrd wrote:
In my eyes there is no hate, maybe a bit of bias, but not that much. Good micro, but bad macro is something often attributed to wc3 players. Imo Stephano has some of the best macro I've seen...But I get your point.... the strength of most wc3 players is their micro (except SjoW ) Stephano, Thorzain, Sjow, Lyn don't really have micro as their best quality and strength, nor is it a key element they rely on in their playstyle. I wouldn't say any other ex-WC3 player stands out due to his micro. In fact when you look at the top micro players of SC2 (MKP, MC, Huk come to mind), none of them have WC3 background either. Point being, there really isn't much of the WC3 micro ability that carried over to SC2. Best former WC3 players are doing well in SC2 simply because of the hard work they put in learning and practicing SC2, and almost none of them rely on their WC3 skillset anymore.
what about happy? hasuobs? kas? satiini? demuslim? lucifron? all these players have exceptional micro in sc2. also stephano does have really good micro... its easy to name a few players(incorrectly i might add) to make a point but i dont think your being entirely truthful or you are just being ignorant.
sjow is the exception to all rules
*edit* yes how could i forget grubby and sase. grubby isnt the fastest player out but his precision is brilliant. great micro doesnt directly correlate to high apm.
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Polt played some wc3 and no hate to wc3 , i played it mysalfe !
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EPT
