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On October 26 2011 03:09 WickedSkies wrote:
I was going to be silent about this, but then when I saw Kevin reply, I will also voice my opinion.
First of all, some background to my view:
I have spent 7 years of my life playing Wc3 more or less competitively (regional tournaments, national tournaments, international tournaments, ladder, etc. ) so I have some insight in the warcraft scene, while not as much as Rotterdam. Warcraft proscene
was HUGE, GIGANTIC, compared to ANY other proscene in Europe.
So, to the uneducated sc fanboys, yes, warcraft had BIG tournaments, big events, big players, big scene, big community.
Hell, in Europe there was no bigger Esport (other than CS, maybe). There were community sites, forums, replay sites, apm meters, and tons of other content available. There were big tournaments, biggest one being WCG, Zotac, Go4Wc3, KOTH, StarWars etc etc.
Some will say
'Wait, how about the fact that the amount of skill sc requires is more than wc3?'
That is an utterly and FUNDAMENTALLY wrong. How do I know? Well, apart from being semi-professional wc3 player, I also had keen interest in other esports. I had played bw, but not nearly as competitively or in depth as Wc3. 6 years ago I moved to the Netherlands and one night I decided to check on youtube if there are any tournaments in sc:bw which are as big as the ones I see in wc3 (God bless my ignorance). This resulted in one sleepless night in which I watched half a season of Shinhan Proleague. I was telling myself: 'Well, that is easy, even their progamers lose units to missclicks' (God bless my ignorance)
Next night, however, I watched some more BroodWar and all I saw again was units running around everywhere and dying in pixelized explosions. To me, in this unordered chaos there could be no skill, no idea, no nothing compared to the careful and meticulous movement of units in wc3, the INSANE apm it takes to control 5 units where each unit has 1+ skill and 3 heroes where the heroes have 3+ skills. I was more in-depth with the warcraft notion of expertise than I was with the notion of expertise in Broodwar. To me, broodwar was simply about pumping units and sending them on a-move while pumping new units. I was quite bored with broodwar but in spite of that I decided to take another shot (night watching Proleague) at it. Now that I had spent two nights watching stuff run chaotically around and explode, I began to recognize some interesting things, like the fact that a terran (Flash, bless my Ignorance at the time) was
actually moving a pack of units (vultures) at TWO places at what seemed to be THE SAME TIME.
That was the breaking moment for me. I said to myself, wait, wait, BroodWar might actually require some skill other than pumping units and sending them on attack-move. I dug deeper into forums and watched more Proleague and began to recognize the fact that the small and seemingly insignificant details of the players' games were actually very intentional and did require a lot of skill to execute. From then on I continued to actively follow the proscene in BroodWar and BE AMAZED at the new things I discovered about the game and its AWESOME players.
However, I also actively followed the Warcraft scene not only as a spectator but as an actual player. Don't listen to Naniwa's claims, I did not even know if Naniwa said that wc3 requires less skill, but if he did, I understand why I have never heard of him until he started playing sc2. Warcraft DOES require a lot of skills but those skills are totally different to the ones required in broodwar. Warcraft is about a constant fight, and by fight, I mean actual units hitting each other from beginning to the very end. To a starcraft player a warcraft game might look like a small group of units hitting each other and nothing dying, but a warcraft player will recognize the skill inside it, like where even unit animations matter and you can avoid projectiles and spells by manually triggering skills, where you can prevent enemy units escaping while surrounding them, where last hitting a unit is the only difference between win and loss.
What I am getting at with this rant is that in the beginning to me broodwar was a game that required ABSOLUTELY no skill rather than not forgetting to pump units out of your production facilities. When I got more into the game, and I got deep, I began to recognize the notion of skill and that it requires a lot of practice and talent to be the best. Warcraft is the same in that regard.
To most of TLr's it just looks like a game where no skill is required but it is not fair. Most of the TLrs never actually look any time to research what the game was all about or take a look at the proscene and the huge tournaments that were taking place. So, in response to the massive bias and maybe outright passive hate towards wc3 players I see in this very forum in this very thread (I'm not going to point fingers unless necessary) I can respond only like this:
Unless you have actively followed the wc3 proscene, you don't have the right to voice your opinion. Take your time and research a bit more about a game instead of showing how ignorant the average fanboy can be.
Sc2 is also awesome and does require a lot of skill btw.
Beautiful writing! I always loved (and sucked at) how you have to watch every little detail (after playing BW and TA the fact that a unit's HP is quite important, as they die very infrequently), its awesome (in its own way). I also loved the details about BW too, as the pros sent stuff against stuff, i always remember that one epic TvP where the last couple of units were some dragoons and 1 or 2 siege tanks and i was like OHFCK shitshitshit and than it was over. Also, the scale of a SupCom match... when everywhere fliers fly around and constant battles in air, ground and water, and you build your economy and army with a fcking delicate balance and than you place your commander unit by mistake into that fog thingy that instantly kills it and you lose your winning match...
The point is: actually EVERY complex enough PvP game has infinite skillcap, and all non-C&C like RTSs are complex enough.
Now im only curious about a similar textwall about SupCom :3
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For one, who is 'them' here? The community in general? I'll do you a favor and assume so.
The reason people have posited that BW players would dominate the scene is because the skills used in BW are more directly transferable. The differences between the two games are simple to understand, and it's fairly obvious that BW is closer in many regards to SC2. This does not mean players can't cross over from either game and be successful, and in fact some have. Generally speaking, there are more highly dedicated players coming from BW, because there is more money in the scene and it attracts the hardest working professionals and this only adds to the stigma.
Any negativity directed towards WC3 players for simply being WC3 players is the product of a childish mind and you shouldn't pay any attention to it. Pointing out the stupidity of their thoughts does little, because they are already too stupid to assess the situation; chances are I should be taking my own advice here, but I figure someone may happen upon this post that will benefit from it.
EDIT: Holy fucking italics WickedSkies.
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On October 26 2011 02:56 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 02:28 fleeze wrote:On October 26 2011 02:03 R0YAL wrote:On October 26 2011 01:44 Kahlgar wrote:On October 26 2011 01:36 Condor Hero wrote:On October 26 2011 01:33 Kahlgar wrote:
people underestimating how huge wc3 was in China itt
that being said, there is no discernable skill gap between ex wc3 and ex bw players in sc2 so wether bw was the most challenging game or not (and it prolly was) becomes irrelevent Yeah MVP, MC, Nestea and most of the other Koreans played WC3, oh wait.... might have something to do with bw being a lot bigger than war3 in Korea ya know for similar reasons the european scene is dominated by wc3 players and i have no doubt that if/when the chinese get really good at sc2, their scene will be mostly dominated by ex war3 players aswell Dominated is a strong word. There are a lot of very strong players from both games in Europe. Neither ex-bw nor ex-wc3 players dominate the European scene. that's just plain wrong. looking at the numbers ex-WC3 players dominate the scene clearly, at least in europe. it's easily over 50% ex-WC3 pros currently at the top in europe. i'd call that domination. First, perhaps you should retake statistics. Second, let's look at TLPD. Removing the Koreans from page 1: + Show Spoiler +
Stephano - WC3
MaNa - BW
SaSe - WC3
Dimaga - BW
Major - BW
Sen - BW
Nerchio - BW
IdrA - BW
Demuslim - WC3
Bling - Halo
Brat_ok - BW
Ret - BW
White_ra - BW
elfi - WC3
Socke - BW
qxc - BW
Moonglade - WC3/BW
Happy - WC3
Thorzain - WC3
Page 2 continues much the same way.
Basically, this is a really stupid argument. There's a lot of top foreigners from both games. The region at the very top, Korea, is mostly dominated by ex-BW players but it's because BW is also still the biggest ESPORT in Korea, whereas Korean WC3 died right after the MBC map scandal. BW skills may lend themselves slightly better to SC2 than WC3 skills, but that's unprovable, and a SC2 seems to have found a large middle ground between BW and WC3 mechanics. People can poke and prod and talk about watchability, but there shouldn't be any hate between the two communities. SC2 is maybe like 2/3 BW, 1/3 WC3. Now what I don't agree with is Beyonder saying all games are equal, especially when money is involved. For competition, chess is better than checkers. It's fine if you're just playing with your grandma, but checkers has literally been solved. If you're playing for money, there is an actual #1 sequence of moves that a computer has solved. Most multiplayer games haven't, but I still think it's silly to say all games are equal, especially when there is a limit to the size of the pie. Aside from SC2 attracting Halo fans at MLG, I can't think of an example where cross promotion of game types actually worked and made everyone happy. It usually has no effect at all.
sorry you misunderstood me. i said in europe for a reason.
it's a whole different story in US where WC3 was never as popular and the players where also not as good.
subtract the US/Kor Players from the list and you get:
Stephano - WC3
MaNa - BW
SaSe - WC3
Dimaga - BW
Nerchio - BW
Demuslim - WC3
Brat_ok - BW
Ret - BW
White_ra - BW
elfi - WC3
Socke - BW
Happy - WC3
Thorzain - WC3
if you go further down to the second page you will get even more WC3 players from europe:
darkforce
naniwa
hasuobs
beastyqt
satiini
xlord
kas
sjow
lucifron
bw:
morrow
goody
strelok
still my argument was that his argument is totally wrong which is proven by this statistic even more. it's 90% BW or WC3 players and only a handful of players from other games. i just wanted to emphasize that nearly the whole WC3 pro-scene changed to SC2, so this is also not really a suprise since the BW pro scene in europe is much smaller.
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'Wait, how about the fact that the amount of skill sc requires is more than wc3?'
That is an utterly and FUNDAMENTALLY wrong. How do I know? Well, apart from being semi-professional wc3 player, I also had keen interest in other esports. I had played bw, but not nearly as competitively or in depth as Wc3. 6 years ago I moved to the Netherlands and one night I decided to check on youtube if there are any tournaments in sc:bw which are as big as the ones I see in wc3 (God bless my ignorance).
What? So because you played WC3 at an amateur level and watched BW you know that BW requires equal skill? You have a very high esteem for your own opinions, but I'm not sure that that's warranted.
The only way that you could actually know what you claim is if you played both WC3 and BW at the highest level. By that I mean if you had both Grubby's career and Jaedong's career, for example. Watching BW and playing WC3 at an amateur level doesn't cut it, and frankly puts you on about equal footing with me and most of the other people in this thread.
edit: Personally I find it hard to believe that what Grubby achieved compares to what Jaedong achieved, etc. But it's ridiculous to claim that somehow anyone posting here has special knowledge about this that would outweigh everyone else's opinion.
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On October 26 2011 05:15 Vul wrote:Show nested quote +'Wait, how about the fact that the amount of skill sc requires is more than wc3?'
That is an utterly and FUNDAMENTALLY wrong. How do I know? Well, apart from being semi-professional wc3 player, I also had keen interest in other esports. I had played bw, but not nearly as competitively or in depth as Wc3. 6 years ago I moved to the Netherlands and one night I decided to check on youtube if there are any tournaments in sc:bw which are as big as the ones I see in wc3 (God bless my ignorance). What? So because you played WC3 at an amateur level and watched BW you know that BW requires equal skill? You have a very high esteem for your own opinions, but I'm not sure that that's warranted. The only way that you could actually know what you claim is if you played both WC3 and BW at the highest level. By that I mean if you had both Grubby's career and Jaedong's career, for example. Watching BW and playing WC3 at an amateur level doesn't cut it, and frankly puts you on about equal footing with me and most of the other people in this thread. edit: Personally I find it hard to believe that what Grubby achieved compares to what Jaedong achieved, etc. But it's ridiculous to claim that somehow anyone posting here has special knowledge about this that would outweigh everyone else's opinion.
Grubby wasnt a particularly high achiever, he was just a brilliant macro artist, and a player from Europe with strong results, someone like Creolophus would be much better lined up with a bonjwa, as he only played for a small period of time, but had great results.
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On October 26 2011 05:15 Vul wrote:Show nested quote +'Wait, how about the fact that the amount of skill sc requires is more than wc3?'
That is an utterly and FUNDAMENTALLY wrong. How do I know? Well, apart from being semi-professional wc3 player, I also had keen interest in other esports. I had played bw, but not nearly as competitively or in depth as Wc3. 6 years ago I moved to the Netherlands and one night I decided to check on youtube if there are any tournaments in sc:bw which are as big as the ones I see in wc3 (God bless my ignorance). What? So because you played WC3 at an amateur level and watched BW you know that BW requires equal skill? You have a very high esteem for your own opinions, but I'm not sure that that's warranted. The only way that you could actually know what you claim is if you played both WC3 and BW at the highest level. By that I mean if you had both Grubby's career and Jaedong's career, for example. Watching BW and playing WC3 at an amateur level doesn't cut it, and frankly puts you on about equal footing with me and most of the other people in this thread. edit: Personally I find it hard to believe that what Grubby achieved compares to what Jaedong achieved, etc. But it's ridiculous to claim that somehow anyone posting here has special knowledge about this that would outweigh everyone else's opinion.
You're completely missing the key points of his post, of which there are two:
1.) Don't talk smack about a scene you haven't extensively followed and/or a game you haven't extensively played. This is not at all unreasonable, and something I would say most of the posters in this thread should think about once in a while. Generally, it's a very good rule of thumb to follow. And honestly, sure, he's not a top-tier pro in any of the games he's played -- but his opinion is worth a hell of a lot more than the opinions of those who haven't even watched a BW game or touched a game of War3.
2.) Appreciate all games for their uniqueness and the skill required to play said games at such high levels.
God, how I long for a day when people don't try to have dick-measuring contests over which games are harder to play, or whether players from Game A are better than players from Game B. What a load of crock. Players like Jaedong, Flash, NaDa, Bisu, July, etc. have achieved a hell of a lot in BW. Players like Moon, Grubby, Sky, TH000, ToD, Lyn, etc. have achieved a hell of a lot in War3. Please don't diminish the tremendous achievements of other players in a completely different game based on the assumption that your favored game is simply "better" or "harder" than another. BW has its own legends, War3 has its own legends, and Star2 will have its own legends in time. That is all.
Now, can we all get along, and agree that Boxer is fucking awesome?
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On October 26 2011 05:22 Holcan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 05:15 Vul wrote:'Wait, how about the fact that the amount of skill sc requires is more than wc3?'
That is an utterly and FUNDAMENTALLY wrong. How do I know? Well, apart from being semi-professional wc3 player, I also had keen interest in other esports. I had played bw, but not nearly as competitively or in depth as Wc3. 6 years ago I moved to the Netherlands and one night I decided to check on youtube if there are any tournaments in sc:bw which are as big as the ones I see in wc3 (God bless my ignorance). What? So because you played WC3 at an amateur level and watched BW you know that BW requires equal skill? You have a very high esteem for your own opinions, but I'm not sure that that's warranted. The only way that you could actually know what you claim is if you played both WC3 and BW at the highest level. By that I mean if you had both Grubby's career and Jaedong's career, for example. Watching BW and playing WC3 at an amateur level doesn't cut it, and frankly puts you on about equal footing with me and most of the other people in this thread. edit: Personally I find it hard to believe that what Grubby achieved compares to what Jaedong achieved, etc. But it's ridiculous to claim that somehow anyone posting here has special knowledge about this that would outweigh everyone else's opinion. Grubby wasnt a particularly high achiever, he was just a brilliant macro artist, and a player from Europe with strong results, someone like Creolophus would be much better lined up with a bonjwa, as he only played for a small period of time, but had great results.
what? grubby and macro? in WC3? he won 2 WCGs and is not a great achiever? also even in his slumps he was a top 10 player during all of TFT. most of the time he was considered best "foreigner" (yes those existed too in WC3) and it would be comparable to what jaedong has achieved in the BW scene (NOT judging the skill level difference between the games, i also consider jaedong a better player overall,. but this is just about achievments in the respective scenes).
also there was never a bonjwa in WC3. there was a 5th race that was somewhat close for the whole of WC3 and a great innovator of strategies (beastmaster, mass talon, walking trees, mass expos are all strategies invented by moon) that made a whole race look imbalanced.
so please stop spreading misinformed informations.
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Lol,, Naniwa said wc3 takes half or less skill to play compare to Sc2? yeah thats why he never won a wcg or was even known lol gg Nani just a shit talker he even said grubby would me a mediocore ud if he played ud lolll lost respect for him.
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On October 26 2011 05:22 Holcan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 05:15 Vul wrote:'Wait, how about the fact that the amount of skill sc requires is more than wc3?'
That is an utterly and FUNDAMENTALLY wrong. How do I know? Well, apart from being semi-professional wc3 player, I also had keen interest in other esports. I had played bw, but not nearly as competitively or in depth as Wc3. 6 years ago I moved to the Netherlands and one night I decided to check on youtube if there are any tournaments in sc:bw which are as big as the ones I see in wc3 (God bless my ignorance). What? So because you played WC3 at an amateur level and watched BW you know that BW requires equal skill? You have a very high esteem for your own opinions, but I'm not sure that that's warranted. The only way that you could actually know what you claim is if you played both WC3 and BW at the highest level. By that I mean if you had both Grubby's career and Jaedong's career, for example. Watching BW and playing WC3 at an amateur level doesn't cut it, and frankly puts you on about equal footing with me and most of the other people in this thread. edit: Personally I find it hard to believe that what Grubby achieved compares to what Jaedong achieved, etc. But it's ridiculous to claim that somehow anyone posting here has special knowledge about this that would outweigh everyone else's opinion. Grubby wasnt a particularly high achiever, he was just a brilliant macro artist, and a player from Europe with strong results, someone like Creolophus would be much better lined up with a bonjwa, as he only played for a small period of time, but had great results.
Bonjwas in War3? What an empty term.
We had the King of Orcs and (still have!) the Fifth Race. Creo was brilliant and left behind his own legacy of loltastic awesomeness, but his impact on the scene is minuscule compared to players like Grubby and Moon.
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On October 26 2011 03:09 WickedSkies wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 23:11 RotterdaM wrote:Actually wonder where Johan/Nani said that cause tbh when I spoke with him in the past he always spoke very highly of wc3 oO, he loved the game and had a lot of passion for it from time to time  I could know since we were teammates for quite a while, he did pick a rather unfortunate race but then again, it was mostly about the maps. There's actually a lot of nonsense in this thread ;D wonder how many of you actually played Wc3 ;p. Saying Wc3 was easy is bullshit , if anything everybody who ever played and followed the pro scene closely knew that upsets did not happen _very_ often, just because there was an insane amount of skill and every single season you'd see the same guys (grubby/tod/creo/deadman) with the best win records in Wc3l since it was just _VERY_ hard for an inferior player to beat a guy thats actually better than you ( While as we all know, this happens quite often in SC2 , ask Greg!  ), Orc Vs UD was prolly the match-up where this happened the most, but even then, if the UD was really better he'd win most of the time. Just the simple fact that it was the same guys winning over and over again ( yet wc3 was INCREDIBLE competitive + a ton of guys REALLY tryed to be _that_ good ) shows there was a ton of skill in this game, I mean HuK and Stephano are really tearing it up lately, but its still absolutely nothing compared to what Grubby did in late 2004 till Summer 2005, it didn't matter which tournament he attended, everybody knew he was going to win, won like 4/5/6 massive tournaments on a row ;D if that ain't skill, I wonder what is , aa anyway to much text, to much passion when I'm writing bout Wc3 ;D, missing dem good old days <3 ;D hf with the discussion I was going to be silent about this, but then when I saw Kevin reply, I will also voice my opinion. First of all, some background to my view:I have spent 7 years of my life playing Wc3 more or less competitively (regional tournaments, national tournaments, international tournaments, ladder, etc. ) so I have some insight in the warcraft scene, while not as much as Rotterdam. Warcraft proscene was HUGE, GIGANTIC, compared to ANY other proscene in Europe. So, to the uneducated sc fanboys, yes, warcraft had BIG tournaments, big events, big players, big scene, big community. Hell, in Europe there was no bigger Esport (other than CS, maybe). There were community sites, forums, replay sites, apm meters, and tons of other content available. There were big tournaments, biggest one being WCG, Zotac, Go4Wc3, KOTH, StarWars etc etc. Some will say ' Wait, how about the fact that the amount of skill sc requires is more than wc3?' That is an utterly and FUNDAMENTALLY wrong. How do I know? Well, apart from being semi-professional wc3 player, I also had keen interest in other esports. I had played bw, but not nearly as competitively or in depth as Wc3. 6 years ago I moved to the Netherlands and one night I decided to check on youtube if there are any tournaments in sc:bw which are as big as the ones I see in wc3 (God bless my ignorance). This resulted in one sleepless night in which I watched half a season of Shinhan Proleague. I was telling myself: ' Well, that is easy, even their progamers lose units to missclicks' (God bless my ignorance) Next night, however, I watched some more BroodWar and all I saw again was units running around everywhere and dying in pixelized explosions. To me, in this unordered chaos there could be no skill, no idea, no nothing compared to the careful and meticulous movement of units in wc3, the INSANE apm it takes to control 5 units where each unit has 1+ skill and 3 heroes where the heroes have 3+ skills. I was more in-depth with the warcraft notion of expertise than I was with the notion of expertise in Broodwar. To me, broodwar was simply about pumping units and sending them on a-move while pumping new units. I was quite bored with broodwar but in spite of that I decided to take another shot (night watching Proleague) at it. Now that I had spent two nights watching stuff run chaotically around and explode, I began to recognize some interesting things, like the fact that a terran (Flash, bless my Ignorance at the time) was actually moving a pack of units (vultures) at TWO places at what seemed to be THE SAME TIME.That was the breaking moment for me. I said to myself, wait, wait, BroodWar might actually require some skill other than pumping units and sending them on attack-move. I dug deeper into forums and watched more Proleague and began to recognize the fact that the small and seemingly insignificant details of the players' games were actually very intentional and did require a lot of skill to execute. From then on I continued to actively follow the proscene in BroodWar and BE AMAZED at the new things I discovered about the game and its AWESOME players.However, I also actively followed the Warcraft scene not only as a spectator but as an actual player. Don't listen to Naniwa's claims, I did not even know if Naniwa said that wc3 requires less skill, but if he did, I understand why I have never heard of him until he started playing sc2. Warcraft DOES require a lot of skills but those skills are totally different to the ones required in broodwar. Warcraft is about a constant fight, and by fight, I mean actual units hitting each other from beginning to the very end. To a starcraft player a warcraft game might look like a small group of units hitting each other and nothing dying, but a warcraft player will recognize the skill inside it, like where even unit animations matter and you can avoid projectiles and spells by manually triggering skills, where you can prevent enemy units escaping while surrounding them, where last hitting a unit is the only difference between win and loss. What I am getting at with this rant is that in the beginning to me broodwar was a game that required ABSOLUTELY no skill rather than not forgetting to pump units out of your production facilities. When I got more into the game, and I got deep, I began to recognize the notion of skill and that it requires a lot of practice and talent to be the best. Warcraft is the same in that regard. To most of TLr's it just looks like a game where no skill is required but it is not fair. Most of the TLrs never actually look any time to research what the game was all about or take a look at the proscene and the huge tournaments that were taking place. So, in response to the massive bias and maybe outright passive hate towards wc3 players I see in this very forum in this very thread (I'm not going to point fingers unless necessary) I can respond only like this: Unless you have actively followed the wc3 proscene, you don't have the right to voice your opinion. Take your time and research a bit more about a game instead of showing how ignorant the average fanboy can be. Sc2 is also awesome and does require a lot of skill btw.
Beautiful post ;D, felt the same way ^^ I never had more joy in my life than the days of Far seer vs Archmage, the moment you play vs Humans like ToD Sky or infi, and you don't just have these 3/4/5 units dancing around on lvl 1 or 2, but you think 3/4 potential hits ahead, move your fs closer to the AM so you know 3 seconds later you can force a TP, know that you will have that 125 mana for the Chain lighting, taking damage on purpose on your own units to just denie them & then turn the situation in your favor ;D Nothing has ever been more fun than than that ^^ FS vs AM will for always be in my heart, I still loved Wc3 when Blade became really populair as well, certainly because my OvO on LT/maelstrom & Gnoll wood was quite insane, but it didn't have that magic touch ;D, the feeling when you hear that horse Scream and you know that horse was controlled by 4K.ToD (sry yoan <3 ) was just the best feeling ever haha , anyways was a fun discussion, think if you never played Wc3 its really dumb to judge the game, ofcourse you can have your opinion and first impressions etc, but theirs a reason why this game was so incredible populair ;D and yes it really was that populair. WCG 2009 in Chengdu is still the sickest thing I have ever seen, I know there was OSL's or MLG with even bigger crowds but for instance, The Blizzcon crowd was big, MLG crowds are big, at IEM we had an insane crowd in Hannover & Gamescom but its like 1/4th of what there was for Infi vs Fly for the wcg 2009 final, to bad the final sucked ;D could have been so epic, but it was still great ^^
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On October 26 2011 03:09 WickedSkies wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 23:11 RotterdaM wrote:Actually wonder where Johan/Nani said that cause tbh when I spoke with him in the past he always spoke very highly of wc3 oO, he loved the game and had a lot of passion for it from time to time I could know since we were teammates for quite a while, he did pick a rather unfortunate race but then again, it was mostly about the maps. There's actually a lot of nonsense in this thread ;D wonder how many of you actually played Wc3 ;p. Saying Wc3 was easy is bullshit , if anything everybody who ever played and followed the pro scene closely knew that upsets did not happen _very_ often, just because there was an insane amount of skill and every single season you'd see the same guys (grubby/tod/creo/deadman) with the best win records in Wc3l since it was just _VERY_ hard for an inferior player to beat a guy thats actually better than you ( While as we all know, this happens quite often in SC2 , ask Greg! ), Orc Vs UD was prolly the match-up where this happened the most, but even then, if the UD was really better he'd win most of the time. Just the simple fact that it was the same guys winning over and over again ( yet wc3 was INCREDIBLE competitive + a ton of guys REALLY tryed to be _that_ good ) shows there was a ton of skill in this game, I mean HuK and Stephano are really tearing it up lately, but its still absolutely nothing compared to what Grubby did in late 2004 till Summer 2005, it didn't matter which tournament he attended, everybody knew he was going to win, won like 4/5/6 massive tournaments on a row ;D if that ain't skill, I wonder what is , aa anyway to much text, to much passion when I'm writing bout Wc3 ;D, missing dem good old days <3 ;D hf with the discussion I was going to be silent about this, but then when I saw Kevin reply, I will also voice my opinion. First of all, some background to my view:I have spent 7 years of my life playing Wc3 more or less competitively (regional tournaments, national tournaments, international tournaments, ladder, etc. ) so I have some insight in the warcraft scene, while not as much as Rotterdam. Warcraft proscene was HUGE, GIGANTIC, compared to ANY other proscene in Europe.
I dare say CS was bigger than WC3. But yes, certainly WC3 was the biggest RTS proscene in Europe.
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On October 26 2011 05:35 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 05:15 Vul wrote:'Wait, how about the fact that the amount of skill sc requires is more than wc3?'
That is an utterly and FUNDAMENTALLY wrong. How do I know? Well, apart from being semi-professional wc3 player, I also had keen interest in other esports. I had played bw, but not nearly as competitively or in depth as Wc3. 6 years ago I moved to the Netherlands and one night I decided to check on youtube if there are any tournaments in sc:bw which are as big as the ones I see in wc3 (God bless my ignorance). What? So because you played WC3 at an amateur level and watched BW you know that BW requires equal skill? You have a very high esteem for your own opinions, but I'm not sure that that's warranted. The only way that you could actually know what you claim is if you played both WC3 and BW at the highest level. By that I mean if you had both Grubby's career and Jaedong's career, for example. Watching BW and playing WC3 at an amateur level doesn't cut it, and frankly puts you on about equal footing with me and most of the other people in this thread. edit: Personally I find it hard to believe that what Grubby achieved compares to what Jaedong achieved, etc. But it's ridiculous to claim that somehow anyone posting here has special knowledge about this that would outweigh everyone else's opinion. You're completely missing the key points of his post, of which there are two: 1.) Don't talk smack about a scene you haven't extensively followed and/or a game you haven't extensively played. This is not at all unreasonable, and something I would say most of the posters in this thread should think about once in a while. Generally, it's a very good rule of thumb to follow. And honestly, sure, he's not a top-tier pro in any of the games he's played -- but his opinion is worth a hell of a lot more than the opinions of those who haven't even watched a BW game or touched a game of War3. 2.) Appreciate all games for their uniqueness and the skill required to play said games at such high levels. God, how I long for a day when people don't try to have dick-measuring contests over which games are harder to play, or whether players from Game A are better than players from Game B. What a load of crock. Players like Jaedong, Flash, NaDa, Bisu, July, etc. have achieved a hell of a lot in BW. Players like Moon, Grubby, Sky, TH000, ToD, Lyn, etc. have achieved a hell of a lot in War3. Please don't diminish the tremendous achievements of other players in a completely different game based on the assumption that your favored game is simply "better" or "harder" than another. BW has its own legends, War3 has its own legends, and Star2 will have its own legends in time. That is all. Now, can we all get along, and agree that Boxer is fucking awesome?
I'm not here to argue that BW is the harder game. Like I said, I think that what Jaedong accomplished is more impressive than the best accomplishments from WC3, because SCBW had a much better and more demanding scene. But that's just a personal opinion that I know can never be validated.
It's like my opinion that the Steelers will win the Superbowl this year. How do I know? I don't. I'm just a Steelers fan, and I'm not going to try to convince anyone else. If you think that WC3 is the harder game, then that's cool.
The point of my post was a response. I think it's stupid to come here and say "I played WC3 pretty well for an amateur and I watched BW, therefore I KNOW that they require equal skill. All of you need to do more research or become as good as I was at the game before you should express your opinions, because they are wrong."
That's bullshit. No one knows that, and no one's opinion is more valid than anyone else's. This would only be possible if they know exactly what it takes to be the best player in both BW and WC3 from personal experience.
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5956 Posts
On October 26 2011 03:09 WickedSkies wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 23:11 RotterdaM wrote:Actually wonder where Johan/Nani said that cause tbh when I spoke with him in the past he always spoke very highly of wc3 oO, he loved the game and had a lot of passion for it from time to time I could know since we were teammates for quite a while, he did pick a rather unfortunate race but then again, it was mostly about the maps. There's actually a lot of nonsense in this thread ;D wonder how many of you actually played Wc3 ;p. Saying Wc3 was easy is bullshit , if anything everybody who ever played and followed the pro scene closely knew that upsets did not happen _very_ often, just because there was an insane amount of skill and every single season you'd see the same guys (grubby/tod/creo/deadman) with the best win records in Wc3l since it was just _VERY_ hard for an inferior player to beat a guy thats actually better than you ( While as we all know, this happens quite often in SC2 , ask Greg! ), Orc Vs UD was prolly the match-up where this happened the most, but even then, if the UD was really better he'd win most of the time. Just the simple fact that it was the same guys winning over and over again ( yet wc3 was INCREDIBLE competitive + a ton of guys REALLY tryed to be _that_ good ) shows there was a ton of skill in this game, I mean HuK and Stephano are really tearing it up lately, but its still absolutely nothing compared to what Grubby did in late 2004 till Summer 2005, it didn't matter which tournament he attended, everybody knew he was going to win, won like 4/5/6 massive tournaments on a row ;D if that ain't skill, I wonder what is , aa anyway to much text, to much passion when I'm writing bout Wc3 ;D, missing dem good old days <3 ;D hf with the discussion I was going to be silent about this, but then when I saw Kevin reply, I will also voice my opinion. First of all, some background to my view:I have spent 7 years of my life playing Wc3 more or less competitively (regional tournaments, national tournaments, international tournaments, ladder, etc. ) so I have some insight in the warcraft scene, while not as much as Rotterdam. Warcraft proscene was HUGE, GIGANTIC, compared to ANY other proscene in Europe. So, to the uneducated sc fanboys, yes, warcraft had BIG tournaments, big events, big players, big scene, big community. Hell, in Europe there was no bigger Esport (other than CS, maybe). There were community sites, forums, replay sites, apm meters, and tons of other content available. There were big tournaments, biggest one being WCG, Zotac, Go4Wc3, KOTH, StarWars etc etc. Some will say ' Wait, how about the fact that the amount of skill sc requires is more than wc3?' That is an utterly and FUNDAMENTALLY wrong. How do I know? Well, apart from being semi-professional wc3 player, I also had keen interest in other esports. I had played bw, but not nearly as competitively or in depth as Wc3. 6 years ago I moved to the Netherlands and one night I decided to check on youtube if there are any tournaments in sc:bw which are as big as the ones I see in wc3 (God bless my ignorance). This resulted in one sleepless night in which I watched half a season of Shinhan Proleague. I was telling myself: ' Well, that is easy, even their progamers lose units to missclicks' (God bless my ignorance) Next night, however, I watched some more BroodWar and all I saw again was units running around everywhere and dying in pixelized explosions. To me, in this unordered chaos there could be no skill, no idea, no nothing compared to the careful and meticulous movement of units in wc3, the INSANE apm it takes to control 5 units where each unit has 1+ skill and 3 heroes where the heroes have 3+ skills. I was more in-depth with the warcraft notion of expertise than I was with the notion of expertise in Broodwar. To me, broodwar was simply about pumping units and sending them on a-move while pumping new units. I was quite bored with broodwar but in spite of that I decided to take another shot (night watching Proleague) at it. Now that I had spent two nights watching stuff run chaotically around and explode, I began to recognize some interesting things, like the fact that a terran (Flash, bless my Ignorance at the time) was actually moving a pack of units (vultures) at TWO places at what seemed to be THE SAME TIME.That was the breaking moment for me. I said to myself, wait, wait, BroodWar might actually require some skill other than pumping units and sending them on attack-move. I dug deeper into forums and watched more Proleague and began to recognize the fact that the small and seemingly insignificant details of the players' games were actually very intentional and did require a lot of skill to execute. From then on I continued to actively follow the proscene in BroodWar and BE AMAZED at the new things I discovered about the game and its AWESOME players.However, I also actively followed the Warcraft scene not only as a spectator but as an actual player. Don't listen to Naniwa's claims, I did not even know if Naniwa said that wc3 requires less skill, but if he did, I understand why I have never heard of him until he started playing sc2. Warcraft DOES require a lot of skills but those skills are totally different to the ones required in broodwar. Warcraft is about a constant fight, and by fight, I mean actual units hitting each other from beginning to the very end. To a starcraft player a warcraft game might look like a small group of units hitting each other and nothing dying, but a warcraft player will recognize the skill inside it, like where even unit animations matter and you can avoid projectiles and spells by manually triggering skills, where you can prevent enemy units escaping while surrounding them, where last hitting a unit is the only difference between win and loss. What I am getting at with this rant is that in the beginning to me broodwar was a game that required ABSOLUTELY no skill rather than not forgetting to pump units out of your production facilities. When I got more into the game, and I got deep, I began to recognize the notion of skill and that it requires a lot of practice and talent to be the best. Warcraft is the same in that regard. To most of TLr's it just looks like a game where no skill is required but it is not fair. Most of the TLrs never actually look any time to research what the game was all about or take a look at the proscene and the huge tournaments that were taking place. So, in response to the massive bias and maybe outright passive hate towards wc3 players I see in this very forum in this very thread (I'm not going to point fingers unless necessary) I can respond only like this: Unless you have actively followed the wc3 proscene, you don't have the right to voice your opinion. Take your time and research a bit more about a game instead of showing how ignorant the average fanboy can be. Sc2 is also awesome and does require a lot of skill btw.
Everyone should probably just take this post to heart. Very well written and highly informative. I guess the people who did not follow WC3 scene simply cannot fathom the deep underlying stuff beneath the "easy"-looking game. Good ol' memories of 4k vs MYM rivalry, or the epic Moon vs Grubby WCG finals....Good ol' times
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Let's just get this straight- Warcraft 3 requires as much skill as BW, and possibly even more micro. The amount of convoluted endgames in Warcraft 3 rivals Brood War and is very much a metagame.
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A lot of fans of blizzard's games pick one franchise and stick with it. BW fans hate SC2, who hate WC3, who hate WoW, who hate Diablo, and etc. It's all quite silly and it reminds me a lot of console war forums to be honest. I personally enjoy all of them equally.
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Frankly , there is no reason to differentiate players background, current state of SC2 is incomparable to both top BW and top WC3. Imho its not about if WC3 was micro/macro oriented, if the guys have required mechanics or potential to get those they can be the best in SC2. The only players who could get a big boost are the ones who didnt switch, A-teamers from BW, while their mechanics are top notch its the strategical thinking and split second decision making is what gives them real edge. Term Macro in SC2 is really incomparable to BW, because every top wc3/bw player should have enough mechanics to pull it off in SC2. Multitasking was big part of both game, also hand movements (high APM), i really dont see a problem.
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On October 26 2011 05:59 Vul wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 05:35 babylon wrote:On October 26 2011 05:15 Vul wrote:'Wait, how about the fact that the amount of skill sc requires is more than wc3?'
That is an utterly and FUNDAMENTALLY wrong. How do I know? Well, apart from being semi-professional wc3 player, I also had keen interest in other esports. I had played bw, but not nearly as competitively or in depth as Wc3. 6 years ago I moved to the Netherlands and one night I decided to check on youtube if there are any tournaments in sc:bw which are as big as the ones I see in wc3 (God bless my ignorance). What? So because you played WC3 at an amateur level and watched BW you know that BW requires equal skill? You have a very high esteem for your own opinions, but I'm not sure that that's warranted. The only way that you could actually know what you claim is if you played both WC3 and BW at the highest level. By that I mean if you had both Grubby's career and Jaedong's career, for example. Watching BW and playing WC3 at an amateur level doesn't cut it, and frankly puts you on about equal footing with me and most of the other people in this thread. edit: Personally I find it hard to believe that what Grubby achieved compares to what Jaedong achieved, etc. But it's ridiculous to claim that somehow anyone posting here has special knowledge about this that would outweigh everyone else's opinion. You're completely missing the key points of his post, of which there are two: 1.) Don't talk smack about a scene you haven't extensively followed and/or a game you haven't extensively played. This is not at all unreasonable, and something I would say most of the posters in this thread should think about once in a while. Generally, it's a very good rule of thumb to follow. And honestly, sure, he's not a top-tier pro in any of the games he's played -- but his opinion is worth a hell of a lot more than the opinions of those who haven't even watched a BW game or touched a game of War3. 2.) Appreciate all games for their uniqueness and the skill required to play said games at such high levels. God, how I long for a day when people don't try to have dick-measuring contests over which games are harder to play, or whether players from Game A are better than players from Game B. What a load of crock. Players like Jaedong, Flash, NaDa, Bisu, July, etc. have achieved a hell of a lot in BW. Players like Moon, Grubby, Sky, TH000, ToD, Lyn, etc. have achieved a hell of a lot in War3. Please don't diminish the tremendous achievements of other players in a completely different game based on the assumption that your favored game is simply "better" or "harder" than another. BW has its own legends, War3 has its own legends, and Star2 will have its own legends in time. That is all. Now, can we all get along, and agree that Boxer is fucking awesome? I'm not here to argue that BW is the harder game. Like I said, I think that what Jaedong accomplished is more impressive than the best accomplishments from WC3, because SCBW had a much better and more demanding scene. But that's just a personal opinion that I know can never be validated. It's like my opinion that the Steelers will win the Superbowl this year. How do I know? I don't. I'm just a Steelers fan, and I'm not going to try to convince anyone else. If you think that WC3 is the harder game, then that's cool. The point of my post was a response. I think it's stupid to come here and say "I played WC3 pretty well for an amateur and I watched BW, therefore I KNOW that they require equal skill. All of you need to do more research or become as good as I was at the game before you should express your opinions, because they are wrong." That's bullshit. No one knows that, and no one's opinion is more valid than anyone else's. This would only be possible if they know exactly what it takes to be the best player in both BW and WC3 from personal experience.
That is indeed a logical leap in his post, but to be honest, it's not even close to his main point. He's using himself as an example of someone who originally had misconceptions about a game (BW) and thought that his own game (War3) was better, but upon further research, he discovered that BW was actually pretty damn good and not as "a-movey" as he thought. And if you can't put together the effort to actually familiarize yourself with a scene/game before entering into a discussion about it (like he did), then honestly, what are you doing here anyways?
(At least, that is what I got from his post. Apologies to him if I'm misinterpreting it.)
I honestly don't have an opinion about War3 vs. BW, and I don't care to have a debate about it. I mentioned on the last page that all of this feels a lot like debates over such trivial things as kendo vs. fencing. I do both, prefer kendo, but am far better at fencing than I am at kendo. What does this mean about the skill required to do kendo compared to the skill required for fencing? Absolutely nothing! (And I think that was a misstep on his part in his effort to explain that War3 is really not as easy as it might initially appear to people who haven't played the game.) But I, however, am more qualified to speak about kendo and how similar/different it is to fencing than people who have touched neither sport or merely do one of them.
I hope that's clear. (Am heavily sleep-deprived at the moment, so apologies if it isn't.)
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As a former wc3 player i have to admit that scbw is way harder to play if you only look at the mechanical skills required.
And i'm not stating this as a fact, as other people may have a different opinion on this, but if you take a closer look to wc3 as a whole game, rather than judging the interface, you will have to admit that it added quite some components which scbw didn't have. Well these added components made the game quite complex and maybe not as straight forward as bw. Ofc bw was more about multitasking and controlling units and so on, but every game can be incredibly complex and hard if you put it to a certain level e.g. take a look at chess...if you're honest it's a quiet simple game with everybody on the same level concerning unit control, multitasking etc. but the fact that you don't have to do 2 or even more things at the same time gives you time to take care about other things. So my point is, wc3 might have looked easily when just watching it, but isn't it the same with chess? If a professional chess player wins a championship, he's in no way able to "move his units better than you", all he did, you could have done aswell and still he's the champion and not anybody else.
So if you take a closer look at wc3, not at the apm required or the amount of units you have to control, but at the way the players thought during the game, concerning creeping routes, heroes, leveling, etc. it might (that's at least what i would guess) be more complex than what in a scbw game happened, i'm not trying to state players as "dumb" or something, it's just seems logic to me that you have only a certain amout of thinks you can take care of at the same time and if you need all the time to control your units, you might not have the time to think about the state of the game as a whole, which a wc3 player has.
I'm sorry for my poor english, i hope you'll get what i'm trying to say
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
Because TL for 8 years was a pure BW site. Why do SC2 players shit on WoW. Same reason.
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EPT
