EPTWhy is there hate to wc3 players - Page 10
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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MyLastSerenade
Germany710 Posts
On October 26 2011 02:46 Nawe wrote: Well you cant make a list and not to forget someone  I forgot about Phoenix_Gerrard etc Btw what was Polts ID in wc3? Cant remember him Lof.Polt as far as i know | ||
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pzea469
United States1520 Posts
However, now with sc2, the skill gap is much much lower so I don't see any reason to hate. | ||
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babylon
8765 Posts
For my part (and as someone who's played War3 since release), I find War3 to be much, much harder, but that's honestly because my overall playstyle suits Star2 more, as I am better at macroing than microing despite having played War3 for nine years or something, lol. (But I enjoy War3 a lot more than Star2! Also, my laptop can run War3, so there's always that too, hahaha.) Naniwa shouldn't say anything about the difficulty of War3 given that he was nowhere near the top of the scene in War3. Sure, he played UD, but it isn't and wasn't impossible to make it big as an UD player. Gosh, if you want to see a good UD player, look at Lucifer: had to take a two-year break to go to the army, but once he came back, he was still damn good. Anyways, War3 and Star2 are different enough, IMHO, that they shouldn't be lumped together. Focus is on different things. Almost as dumb as saying kendo is better than Western fencing or what-have-you. They're similar but different. If it was "so easy," then we wouldn't have seen the same players dominate year after year after year after year with such great consistency. | ||
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acie
United States247 Posts
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grs
Germany2339 Posts
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Elem
Sweden4717 Posts
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On October 26 2011 02:28 fleeze wrote: that's just plain wrong. looking at the numbers ex-WC3 players dominate the scene clearly, at least in europe. it's easily over 50% ex-WC3 pros currently at the top in europe. i'd call that domination. First, perhaps you should retake statistics. Second, let's look at TLPD. Removing the Koreans from page 1: + Show Spoiler + Stephano - WC3 MaNa - BW SaSe - WC3 Dimaga - BW Major - BW Sen - BW Nerchio - BW IdrA - BW Demuslim - WC3 Bling - Halo Brat_ok - BW Ret - BW White_ra - BW elfi - WC3 Socke - BW qxc - BW Moonglade - WC3/BW Happy - WC3 Thorzain - WC3 Page 2 continues much the same way. Basically, this is a really stupid argument. There's a lot of top foreigners from both games. The region at the very top, Korea, is mostly dominated by ex-BW players but it's because BW is also still the biggest ESPORT in Korea, whereas Korean WC3 died right after the MBC map scandal. BW skills may lend themselves slightly better to SC2 than WC3 skills, but that's unprovable, and a SC2 seems to have found a large middle ground between BW and WC3 mechanics. People can poke and prod and talk about watchability, but there shouldn't be any hate between the two communities. SC2 is maybe like 2/3 BW, 1/3 WC3. Now what I don't agree with is Beyonder saying all games are equal, especially when money is involved. For competition, chess is better than checkers. It's fine if you're just playing with your grandma, but checkers has literally been solved. If you're playing for money, there is an actual #1 sequence of moves that a computer has solved. Most multiplayer games haven't, but I still think it's silly to say all games are equal, especially when there is a limit to the size of the pie. Aside from SC2 attracting Halo fans at MLG, I can't think of an example where cross promotion of game types actually worked and made everyone happy. It usually has no effect at all. | ||
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Mafe
Germany5966 Posts
Football, Rugby and american Football fans dislike each other. Heay metal fans hate "normal" music that has eguitarsthe most. Physic students make fun of maths. I believe this has to do with yourself knowing that it would have taken just some MINOR events and you could have been on the other side. And now you want to justify (for yourself) your "decision" of liking your "choices" by disrespecting what you might have loved otherwise. Like how many years were between scbw and wc3? I am sure many of those die-hard-scbw-players would play wc3 instead if they just happened to discover their love for strategy computer games 2 or 3 years later? | ||
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SoKHo
Korea (South)1081 Posts
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babylon
8765 Posts
On October 26 2011 02:55 Elem wrote: Only players who don't deserve hype is players who got carried by the Blademaster. Well, if you want to start ... Human towers. Crai.  | ||
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followZeRoX
Serbia1451 Posts
On October 26 2011 02:53 acie wrote: dont think phoenix_gerrard ever played sc2, there is a coach named gerrard but that is a different person He did during bet and early sc2 after release, as Zerg. Now I think he is inactive. | ||
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WickedSkies
Netherlands81 Posts
On October 25 2011 23:11 RotterdaM wrote: Actually wonder where Johan/Nani said that cause tbh when I spoke with him in the past he always spoke very highly of wc3 oO, he loved the game and had a lot of passion for it from time to time I could know since we were teammates for quite a while, he did pick a rather unfortunate race but then again, it was mostly about the maps. There's actually a lot of nonsense in this thread ;D wonder how many of you actually played Wc3 ;p. Saying Wc3 was easy is bullshit , if anything everybody who ever played and followed the pro scene closely knew that upsets did not happen _very_ often, just because there was an insane amount of skill and every single season you'd see the same guys (grubby/tod/creo/deadman) with the best win records in Wc3l since it was just _VERY_ hard for an inferior player to beat a guy thats actually better than you ( While as we all know, this happens quite often in SC2 , ask Greg!  ), Orc Vs UD was prolly the match-up where this happened the most, but even then, if the UD was really better he'd win most of the time. Just the simple fact that it was the same guys winning over and over again ( yet wc3 was INCREDIBLE competitive + a ton of guys REALLY tryed to be _that_ good ) shows there was a ton of skill in this game, I mean HuK and Stephano are really tearing it up lately, but its still absolutely nothing compared to what Grubby did in late 2004 till Summer 2005, it didn't matter which tournament he attended, everybody knew he was going to win, won like 4/5/6 massive tournaments on a row ;D if that ain't skill, I wonder what is ,aa anyway to much text, to much passion when I'm writing bout Wc3 ;D, missing dem good old days <3 ;D hf with the discussion I was going to be silent about this, but then when I saw Kevin reply, I will also voice my opinion. First of all, some background to my view: I have spent 7 years of my life playing Wc3 more or less competitively (regional tournaments, national tournaments, international tournaments, ladder, etc. ) so I have some insight in the warcraft scene, while not as much as Rotterdam. Warcraft proscene was HUGE, GIGANTIC, compared to ANY other proscene in Europe. So, to the uneducated sc fanboys, yes, warcraft had BIG tournaments, big events, big players, big scene, big community. Hell, in Europe there was no bigger Esport (other than CS, maybe). There were community sites, forums, replay sites, apm meters, and tons of other content available. There were big tournaments, biggest one being WCG, Zotac, Go4Wc3, KOTH, StarWars etc etc. Some will say 'Wait, how about the fact that the amount of skill sc requires is more than wc3?' That is an utterly and FUNDAMENTALLY wrong. How do I know? Well, apart from being semi-professional wc3 player, I also had keen interest in other esports. I had played bw, but not nearly as competitively or in depth as Wc3. 6 years ago I moved to the Netherlands and one night I decided to check on youtube if there are any tournaments in sc:bw which are as big as the ones I see in wc3 (God bless my ignorance). This resulted in one sleepless night in which I watched half a season of Shinhan Proleague. I was telling myself: 'Well, that is easy, even their progamers lose units to missclicks' (God bless my ignorance) Next night, however, I watched some more BroodWar and all I saw again was units running around everywhere and dying in pixelized explosions. To me, in this unordered chaos there could be no skill, no idea, no nothing compared to the careful and meticulous movement of units in wc3, the INSANE apm it takes to control 5 units where each unit has 1+ skill and 3 heroes where the heroes have 3+ skills. I was more in-depth with the warcraft notion of expertise than I was with the notion of expertise in Broodwar. To me, broodwar was simply about pumping units and sending them on a-move while pumping new units. I was quite bored with broodwar but in spite of that I decided to take another shot (night watching Proleague) at it. Now that I had spent two nights watching stuff run chaotically around and explode, I began to recognize some interesting things, like the fact that a terran (Flash, bless my Ignorance at the time) was actually moving a pack of units (vultures) at TWO places at what seemed to be THE SAME TIME. That was the breaking moment for me. I said to myself, wait, wait, BroodWar might actually require some skill other than pumping units and sending them on attack-move. I dug deeper into forums and watched more Proleague and began to recognize the fact that the small and seemingly insignificant details of the players' games were actually very intentional and did require a lot of skill to execute. From then on I continued to actively follow the proscene in BroodWar and BE AMAZED at the new things I discovered about the game and its AWESOME players. However, I also actively followed the Warcraft scene not only as a spectator but as an actual player. Don't listen to Naniwa's claims, I did not even know if Naniwa said that wc3 requires less skill, but if he did, I understand why I have never heard of him until he started playing sc2. Warcraft DOES require a lot of skills but those skills are totally different to the ones required in broodwar. Warcraft is about a constant fight, and by fight, I mean actual units hitting each other from beginning to the very end. To a starcraft player a warcraft game might look like a small group of units hitting each other and nothing dying, but a warcraft player will recognize the skill inside it, like where even unit animations matter and you can avoid projectiles and spells by manually triggering skills, where you can prevent enemy units escaping while surrounding them, where last hitting a unit is the only difference between win and loss. What I am getting at with this rant is that in the beginning to me broodwar was a game that required ABSOLUTELY no skill rather than not forgetting to pump units out of your production facilities. When I got more into the game, and I got deep, I began to recognize the notion of skill and that it requires a lot of practice and talent to be the best. Warcraft is the same in that regard. To most of TLr's it just looks like a game where no skill is required but it is not fair. Most of the TLrs never actually look any time to research what the game was all about or take a look at the proscene and the huge tournaments that were taking place. So, in response to the massive bias and maybe outright passive hate towards wc3 players I see in this very forum in this very thread (I'm not going to point fingers unless necessary) I can respond only like this: Unless you have actively followed the wc3 proscene, you don't have the right to voice your opinion. Take your time and research a bit more about a game instead of showing how ignorant the average fanboy can be. Sc2 is also awesome and does require a lot of skill btw. | ||
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gaymon
Germany1023 Posts
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Scrandom
Canada2819 Posts
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windsupernova
Mexico5280 Posts
On October 25 2011 22:59 Beyonder wrote: Because sadly, half of the community (or more) consists of sad angry teenage nerds that only want their 'own thing' to be 'awesome' and 'succeed'. Its the same with the hate for LoL, wow, or any other game. It's pathetic and selfish. Other stuff than BW or Sc2 can be awesome, people have different opinions or experiences. The fact that about half the people here try to make WC3 as the less skilled game is in itself absolutely pathetic. Its what the BW players say about SC2, the chess players say about checkers, and so on. Ex-Wc3 players are amazing at SC2, and lets thank everyone that the two communities united half decently. Other stuff than BW or Sc2 can be awesome, people have different opinions or experiences. LoL frequently has more viewers than SC2, omg!!11 Be happy that people are enjoying a game. Teen angst ftl. Topic should have ended with this post. But oh well to be honest I do think its more of a vocal minority.But with the same reasoning as this post says | ||
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R0YAL
United States1768 Posts
On October 26 2011 03:09 WickedSkies wrote: I was going to be silent about this, but then when I saw Kevin reply, I will also voice my opinion. First of all, some background to my view: I have spent 7 years of my life playing Wc3 more or less competitively (regional tournaments, national tournaments, international tournaments, ladder, etc. ) so I have some insight in the warcraft scene, while not as much as Rotterdam. Warcraft proscene was HUGE, GIGANTIC, compared to ANY other proscene in Europe. So, to the uneducated sc fanboys, yes, warcraft had BIG tournaments, big events, big players, big scene, big community. Hell, in Europe there was no bigger Esport (other than CS, maybe). There were community sites, forums, replay sites, apm meters, and tons of other content available. There were big tournaments, biggest one being WCG, Zotac, Go4Wc3, KOTH, StarWars etc etc. Some will say 'Wait, how about the fact that the amount of skill sc requires is more than wc3?' That is an utterly and FUNDAMENTALLY wrong. How do I know? Well, apart from being semi-professional wc3 player, I also had keen interest in other esports. I had played bw, but not nearly as competitively or in depth as Wc3. 6 years ago I moved to the Netherlands and one night I decided to check on youtube if there are any tournaments in sc:bw which are as big as the ones I see in wc3 (God bless my ignorance). This resulted in one sleepless night in which I watched half a season of Shinhan Proleague. I was telling myself: 'Well, that is easy, even their progamers lose units to missclicks' (God bless my ignorance). Next night, however, I watched some more BroodWar and all I saw again was units running around everywhere and dying in pixelized explosions. To me, in this unordered chaos there could be no skill, no idea, no nothing compared to the careful and meticulous movement of units in wc3, the INSANE apm it takes to control 5 units where each unit has 1+ skill and 3 heroes where the heroes have 3+ skills. I was more in-depth with the warcraft notion of expertise than I was with the notion of expertise in Broodwar. To me, broodwar was simply about pumping units and sending them on a-move while pumping new units. I was quite bored with broodwar but in spite of that I decided to take another shot (night watching Proleague) at it. Now that I had spent two nights watching stuff run chaotically around and explode, I began to recognize some interesting things, like the fact that a terran (Flash, bless my Ignorance at the time) was actually moving a pack of units (vultures) at TWO places at what seemed to be THE SAME TIME. That was the breaking moment for me. I said to myself, wait, wait, BroodWar might actually require some skill other than pumping units and sending them on attack-move. I dug deeper into forums and watched more Proleague and began to recognize the fact that the small and seemingly insignificant details of the players' games were actually very intentional and did require a lot of skill to execute. From then on I continued to actively follow the proscene in BroodWar and BE AMAZED at the new things I discovered about the game and its AWESOME players. However, I also actively followed the Warcraft scene not only as a spectator but as an actual player. Don't listen to Naniwa's claims, I did not even know if Naniwa said that wc3 requires less skill, but if he did, I understand why I have never heard of him until he started playing sc2. Warcraft DOES require a lot of skills but those skills are totally different to the ones required in broodwar. Warcraft is about a constant fight, and by fight, I mean actual units hitting each other from beginning to the very end. To a starcraft player a warcraft game might look like a small group of units hitting each other and nothing dying, but a warcraft player will recognize the skill inside it, like where even unit animations matter and you can avoid projectiles and spells by manually triggering skills, where you can prevent enemy units escaping while surrounding them, where last hitting a unit is the only difference between win and loss. What I am getting at with this rant is that in the beginning to me broodwar was a game that required ABSOLUTELY no skill rather than not forgetting to pump units out of your production facilities. When I got more into the game, and I got deep, I began to recognize the notion of skill and that it requires a lot of practice and talent to be the best. Warcraft is the same in that regard. To most of TLr's it just looks like a game where no skill is required but it is not fair. Most of the TLrs never actually look any time to research what the game was all about or take a look at the proscene and the huge tournaments that were taking place. So, in response to the massive bias and maybe outright passive hate towards wc3 players I see in this very forum in this very thread (I'm not going to point fingers unless necessary) I can respond only like this: Unless you have actively followed the wc3 proscene, you don't have the right to voice your opinion. Take your time and research a bit more about a game instead of showing how ignorant the average fanboy can be. Sc2 is also awesome and does require a lot of skill btw. You sir, just won the thread.. Congratulations! Everyone should take this to heart. | ||
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Patriot.dlk
Sweden5462 Posts
However considering how figured out rts is thanks to bw and still we have really dominant players in sc2 i'd say that's basically not true. As a spectator I can also clearly see how skill wins games overall even though balance and maps etc are not perfect yet. I think all that applies to wc3 as well as I watched my share of wc3 pre sc2. I myself predicted that players like madfrog would do well in sc2 seing how they had both bw and wc3 pro experience and ofc all the talented players from other games who switched should do well in general | ||
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vasatko2
Czech Republic28 Posts
On October 25 2011 20:48 DrGreen wrote: Maybe because "WC3 requires half or less skill which is required to play SC2" - Naniwa. Strange that nani wasn't that good in W3, he made some semi good results but that all. | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
On October 25 2011 23:36 shell wrote: Nice argument.. what about nestea that was a scrub player in BW left the game years ago and is now the 2nd best sc2 player in the world? so your argument proves what? that mvp is the best because he practices more and better then the others probably.. Team with better players produces even better players right? MVP was a scrub player himself in BW his biggest achievement is making the Ro8 in MSL and taking a game of Flash , thats basicaly his whole career . He has played other good games , but he never was a stable player in PL never made anything in the individual leagues while investing years in BW progaming which obviously pаyed for it self in SC2 . Most of the players in Code - S are ex BW B-teamers and practice partners to the pro teams in BW which are the best SC2 players in the world right now . MVP , Nestea , MC , MMA , MKP , DRG , SuperNova , Ganzi and a lot more which i can't think of right now are ex BW pros . When we say a "BW pro" in TL we mean players who have won the courage tournament in korea , get their progaming licence and get drafted by a pro team from KESPA . Idra was the closest thing to a BW pro foreign player , he practised in Estro and then the CJ B-team even thought he didn't win courage . He got lucky and ended up geting a progaming's licence .The absolutely best foreigners in BW were on the level of a BW b-teamer , but for every Idra , White-Ra and Ret there were at least 10 no name B-teamers , semi-pros or amatuer koreans who were equal or better then them and have never seen the light of professional BW career other then maybe winning courage . While the proffesional WC3 scene was better then the BW foreign scene it was still a farce compared to the BW pro scene . I don't hate WC3 players , but this is a starcraft site and why should i care more if a player from a different game then BW switched to SC2 .This and people who have never watched more then 10 pro BW games can't understand the level gap between a BW pro and an ordinary pro the difference in discipline is to big . Elitist or not i follow the BW scene , because i believe that this is the most competitive game in the world and thus the best progamers are BW progamers . | ||
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