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Go back 4 years and imagine the possibility of a thread such as this one in the future in TL, nobody would even liquibet on it.
And here is a good answer from Mandalor:
On October 25 2011 21:50 Mandalor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 21:32 fleeze wrote:
well, that's teamliquid. sc:bw biased as hell.
i would agree that the BW pro scene in KOREA is ahead and every switching progamer will make a huge impact.
but for the foreign scene the same can be said about WC3. BW was non-existent compared to WC3 in europe. WC3 had a VERY competitive scene and many huge tournaments.
nowadays it's called ESPORTS and attributed solely to SC2 / SC:BW. a pretty big mistake since the foreign scene and tournaments mostly emerged out of the WC3 scene.
there were IEMs, ESWCs, WCGs, Zotac Cups, Go4WC3s, etc. before. they just played WC3 which was unnoticed and denounced on teamliquid.
not to forget the other big esports titles: CS 1.6, Quake, UT, even FIFA.
why do people always have to take things personally. Saying the competive scene of wc3 is a lot smaller and less competive than the bw scene in korea is not denouncing the game of wc3! At all. You absolutely cannot compare foreign wc3 with bw in korea. That's not hate, bias or anything. Educate yourself, look at how strict the training for pro-gamers is in their respective games. Look at how many people there are who consider pro-gaming their job in each game. Look at the number and the size of professional gaming teams and the huge prize pool tournaments in each game. None of the tournaments you listed are of any importance, be it prize money or density of competition compared to proleagues. I mean you bring in zotac cups and go4sc2. Are you kidding? No pro-gamers plays these today unless they're incredibly bored. And that's sc2 pro-gamers. No bw pro would ever participate in sth like this, ever. WC3 is a great game and players like Grubby and Moon had amazing accomplishments, but their tournament wins don't feel a lot different than players winning huge FIFA tournaments. It's just not as amazing of a feat as winning proleague(s), because the competition is a lot weaker.
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Why do people keep overusin the word hate?
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Hate?
If WarCraft 4 came out, people would be biased towards ex WarCraft 3 players.
I don't think it's any surprise that there's more hype following StarCraft 1 players coming into StarCraft 2 than WarCraft 3 players coming into StarCraft 2.
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This is a Starcraft website so any other game other than Startcraft is easier and not as good. And please don't say 'cuz', it makes you sound very dumb.
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It surely used to be like that former BW pro's thought of themselves so much higher than former wc3 pro's.
Compare the enthusiasm of Flash, Jaedon etc joining SC2 compared to how a former bw pro, even a TL one, reacted to the enthusiasm of Grubby coming to SC2
On January 31 2011 05:36 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2011 05:02 Orome wrote:On January 31 2011 04:53 Kyandid wrote:
grubby is the best progamer in the world.
I'll be cheering for him no matter what. That's a bold thing to say on TL. :p Haha yeah, what an enormous insult to SC:BW progamers. If it was any more of a direct insult, it'd certainly earn a ban.
On January 03 2011 07:18 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
What do people want to hear from Grubby? He's a newbie at SC2 atm and we're not going to talk about WC3. What's the point?
As if he's going to have something interesting to say about picking up SC2? We can all see that it's a better game to compete in than WC3 at this point. What special insight could he have?
I don't have anything against him coming on the show eventually but our guests gotta provide something both meaningful and relevant. At this point, anything meaningful he could add to the show isn't relevant.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=188935¤tpage=2#35
But in all fairness, I do think that attitude changed a bit over time. And this isn't an attack on Tyler, but just the thing I immediately remembered when reading this thread.
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On October 25 2011 20:47 RevThirteen wrote:
There's a bias because SC1 is way more competetive and requires way higher skill then W3. Even Naniwa, who did play W3 competetivly for several years said that he doesn't think W3 deserves to be a sport.
I love NaNiwa but he is also pretty sensational at times. Considering he was never very significant in War3 and is a top player in SC2 should speak to some difficulty. Maybe he's just bitter he never made it in war3. 
<3 war3
<3 bw
<3 sc2
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Because they played WC3, while they could play SC:BW !! Blasphemy!!!
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On October 25 2011 23:32 Mandalor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 22:25 fleeze wrote:On October 25 2011 21:37 michielbrands wrote:On October 25 2011 21:32 fleeze wrote:well, that's teamliquid. sc:bw biased as hell. i would agree that the BW pro scene in KOREA is ahead and every switching progamer will make a huge impact. but for the foreign scene the same can be said about WC3. BW was non-existent compared to WC3 in europe. WC3 had a VERY competitive scene and many huge tournaments. nowadays it's called ESPORTS and attributed solely to SC2 / SC:BW. a pretty big mistake since the foreign scene and tournaments mostly emerged out of the WC3 scene. there were IEMs, ESWCs, WCGs, Zotac Cups, Go4WC3s, etc. before. they just played WC3 which was unnoticed and denounced on teamliquid. not to forget the other big esports titles: CS 1.6, Quake, UT, even FIFA. On October 03 2011 13:35 Naniwa wrote:On October 03 2011 13:16 Valikyr wrote:
Thanks, great interview but I dont quite agree with his views on WC3. Feels like he is saying that partly because he was a failed progamer in that game (but yes ofc both BW and SC2 is more competetive).
Naniwa fighting though! was there any successful undead progamer ? xD also i never played wc3 fulltime ^^ Sweet was a very successful undead pro. Ted was good too, but never really on the top. You blame TL for focussing on sc:bw? that's there soul? Be glad they don't spend time/effort to the cs 1.6, quake etc. scene. Then this would be just another website filled with annoying kids. sorry sounded a bit ranty  i don't blame tl for the focus but for ignoring everything the WC3 scene achieved in foreign ESPORTS. without WC3, SC2 would be nowhere as big as it is now. and for using SC and ESPORTS as synonyms which they aren't. esports would exist, even without sc2. On October 25 2011 21:50 Mandalor wrote:On October 25 2011 21:32 fleeze wrote:
well, that's teamliquid. sc:bw biased as hell.
i would agree that the BW pro scene in KOREA is ahead and every switching progamer will make a huge impact.
but for the foreign scene the same can be said about WC3. BW was non-existent compared to WC3 in europe. WC3 had a VERY competitive scene and many huge tournaments.
nowadays it's called ESPORTS and attributed solely to SC2 / SC:BW. a pretty big mistake since the foreign scene and tournaments mostly emerged out of the WC3 scene.
there were IEMs, ESWCs, WCGs, Zotac Cups, Go4WC3s, etc. before. they just played WC3 which was unnoticed and denounced on teamliquid.
not to forget the other big esports titles: CS 1.6, Quake, UT, even FIFA.
why do people always have to take things personally. Saying the competive scene of wc3 is a lot smaller and less competive than the bw scene in korea is not denouncing the game of wc3! At all. You absolutely cannot compare foreign wc3 with bw in korea. That's not hate, bias or anything. Educate yourself, look at how strict the training for pro-gamers is in their respective games. Look at how many people there are who consider pro-gaming their job in each game. Look at the number and the size of professional gaming teams and the huge prize pool tournaments in each game. i didn't compare foreign WC3 with BW in korea... but before SC2, WC3 and CS where the pillars of esports outside of korea. would you argue with that statement? None of the tournaments you listed are of any importance, be it prize money or density of competition compared to proleagues. I mean you bring in zotac cups and go4sc2. Are you kidding? No pro-gamers plays these today unless they're incredibly bored. And that's sc2 pro-gamers. No bw pro would ever participate in sth like this, ever. WHAT? are you kidding... i mentioned IEM, ESWC and WCG! the only BIG tourneys missing are TSL (obviously :D), IPL (new) and MLG (halo / console lol). i could add Dreamhack, Assembly, ASUS ROG, etc... nearly all big tourney had WC3 before SC2... btw, i mentioned the weekly tourneys because they are popular and important for the community. and have their roots in the beginning of WC3 (Go4Wc3, the mother of weeklys.). WC3 is a great game and players like Grubby and Moon had amazing accomplishments, but their tournament wins don't feel a lot different than players winning huge FIFA tournaments. It's just not as amazing of a feat as winning proleague(s), because the competition is a lot weaker. you didn't follow the scene then. there was a lot of competition (though lower as in BW/korea). and Creolophus winning the WCG against sky or Grubby beating Moon are some of the greatest games in ESPORTS. As I said, this is in comparison to bw. No - IEM, ESWC and the WCG are not as competitive as OSL or MSL. They never were. And I would argue that they are not as competitive as the GSL. And to continue, the GSL is not as competitive as the bw proleagues (yet). I'm not saying bw is a better game than sc2 or wc3 and I'm not trying to talk down on the accomplishments and the talent of pro-gamers in any of these games. All I'm saying is that we're not at a point in sc2 yet where progaming is as professional and as competitive as it is in bw. And for some reason, wc3 never made it that far. I was an avid wc3 player up until TFT hit and then I just continued to watch top games instead of playing myself. I really like the game and see it as equally suited to esports as bw, but it's easy to see that the professional scene never got big in wc3. Just look at the world cyber games as an example you talked about yourself. How many progamers were there at wcg? I'd probably say about 10 or 12? Progamers as in players who put in a very significant amount of practice hours with the best of the best. I really don't think it's more than that, probably less. In your average OSL, all of the 40 players who qualify are progamers. They had to win a ridiculously hard courage tournament (that no foreigner ever won) at one point to get progaming status, get on a team and then qualify for the league against other progamers. Let's get back to the point where I said "Progamers as in players who put in a very significant amount of practice hours with the best of the best" - all of these players fit this criteria and there's probably hundreds of amateurs that do as well. All of my posts here are adressing the OP where he was wondering why all the former bw players believe that if the top koreans from bw switched over to sc2, they would probably start to dominate at one point. The reason is that people like Flash already made it to the very top through competition that is a loooot harder than it is in sc2 right now.
I think you forgot about comparison of WEG and be proleague (sry dont know name just description). In WEG there were 16 or 32best progamers in the world competing for title. I dont even want to count WCG or ESWC because they are much weaker due to "all nations" representation attached to tournmanet(s). But to say that BW is harder game only because of competitions in tournament isnt really argument to me. Someone mentioned that you needed to manually transfer each worker from main base to minerals or gas. Is that reason to say that you need more skill? I dont think so. Maybe high APM required is because that game is very old and things they do manually are now automatic. But automatic doesent need those things are excluded. Only thing I would agree is sound of for example nydus where player who dont scout it have big chance to avoid damage which he deserved.
To all who dont know hate Im talking about : I cant google now for all pros and rest's comments. But I think you are familiar with quotes "If I had 1 hand I would play warcraft", "warcraft was no brainer for all who didnt succeded in BW" and so on. I hate those comments. Its like you taking away time we spent with game playing it. So if warcraft isnt macro game it means you dont need that much skill? Well same as I said sc doesent require any micro that is inferior game to warcraft.
Next - Boringness and dead of wc3 was natural. Blizzard wanted to grab money with sc2, force all of us to depart from it and buy sc2 copy. They stopped patching, made 1 of 4 race worthless to play. Maps were there for ages and so on. Imagine that Kespa force bw pros to sc2 on that way.
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On October 25 2011 23:30 ToguRo wrote:
there is no coincidence that MVP the best BW player that switched is the best SC2 player in the world
What about Boxer,July,Nada?
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On October 26 2011 01:26 Nawe wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 23:30 ToguRo wrote:
there is no coincidence that MVP the best BW player that switched is the best SC2 player in the world What about Boxer,July,Nada?
They were medicre and and almost b-teamers when SC2 arrived.
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On October 25 2011 20:56 marttorn wrote:
As many others have noted, there's not much outright "hate" against WC3, but I can imagine former BW players feeling like WC3 was a less skillful game, and thus dismissing some of it's players as less experienced in the RTS genre.
TeamLiquid was a Brood War centric site from the very beginning, so naturally there are more BW players, thus you may see some condescension towards WC3 as a whole. This is, of course, taken somewhat offensively by many of the WC3 guys that came with SC2. Not much more to it ^^;
post of the thread. exactly this.
back then when wc3 was the "new thing" there was alot of hate against it for all the "ezmode" things it did. from mbs over automine to smartcast.
now there isnt much to hate since sc2 has all those things too. but in general people still dismiss wc3 players as the ones with the lesser legacy. and well.. they are right. from wc3 to sc2 its a step up (higher speed,way more units etc), from bw to sc2 its 5 steps down so ya. in general bw players are better at sc2 then wc3 players.
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On October 25 2011 23:28 Squeegy wrote:
Why? Because the average fan of a WC3-player is dumb as a boot.
- Former WC3 players do not dominate the scene or do extremely well compared to their BW brothers. Check the weekly/monthly roundups. Even outside of Korea former BW players names show up more often.
- IEMs, ESWCs, WCGs were not WC3 tournaments. In fact, one of them even had BW in it for years before WC3.
- Yes, Korean BW players are also more talented. Not because of any magic or bias but because the competition and large talent pool.
- The foreign scene (if by that you mean the SC2 scene) didn't mostly emerge from WC3. In fact, I'd dare say the important people pushing the scene are mostly from BW than WC3. Day[9], Tastosis, NASL crew and so on. Of course the foreign scene is mostly driven by people from neither game such as MLG.
- WC3 itself doesn't get much hate. It's you fanboys and your stupid shit that creates counter-arguments that some people misunderstand as WC3 hate. It's not. It's just a response to stupid shit, like in this thread for example. We could discuss the merits of WC3 properly as well, but nobody ever starts a proper discussion. All we get is crap like this.
It's you who talks crap lol. You cant argue against the fact that half of the top foreigners are ex-wc3 pros. Polt even won a GSL. Is it any significant ?
And ESWC and WCG were the premier wc3 tournament since 2003 (ofc WCG 2000/01/02 didnt have wc3 cuz the game wasnt released yet lol)
Sigh. The sickest WC3 leagues have been in China, aside from WC3L/NGL. They're still in existence to date.
bullshit. the sickest wc3 leagues asides of WC3L/NGL were the MBC PrimeLeagues in 2003-2005, WEG series in 2005, some GameX tourney in Russia with $100K for 1st place (highest winning for an RTS game). Each WCG is full of drama and stories, and ESWC was just that good. I dont care about those 2010/2011 Chinese leagues since 98% of the coolest characters in the scene had retired
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people underestimating how huge wc3 was in China itt
that being said, there is no discernable skill gap between ex wc3 and ex bw players in sc2 so wether bw was the most challenging game or not (and it prolly was) becomes irrelevent
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On October 26 2011 01:33 Kahlgar wrote:
people underestimating how huge wc3 was in China itt
that being said, there is no discernable skill gap between ex wc3 and ex bw players in sc2 so wether bw was the most challenging game or not (and it prolly was) becomes irrelevent
Yeah MVP, MC, Nestea and most of the other Koreans played WC3, oh wait....
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there is no hate ok?
its just that bw gamers already have insane mechanics work ethics so with good practice they should be pretty good
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No hate, but most of the top players in the world are from bw, and they were all pretty poor players at that. Even the Legends Nada, July, Boxer, were all poor players relative to the better ones when they switched over. It's true that there are good players from WC3 but they are outnumbered and if the titans of bw switch then they will undoubtedly be at the top. I don't mean to say that they will directly be the best once they switch over, but in time they will rise to the top. Their work ethic, competitive nature, mechanics, and understanding of the game is unmatched.
WC3 is a bit tougher to transition to SC2 over BW at first but once you get used to how the economy works its pretty much equal ground. There are tons of skills that you had to develop in BW that are insignificant for SC2, and I imagine its the same for WC3 (I didn't play WC3 competitively). Only the basic fundamentals of rts directly switch over from game to game. Other than the fundamentals, everything is different.
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Sumo takes more skill than soccer.
Yes, that's how stupid you all sound.
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On October 26 2011 01:32 Arceus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 23:28 Squeegy wrote:
Why? Because the average fan of a WC3-player is dumb as a boot.
- Former WC3 players do not dominate the scene or do extremely well compared to their BW brothers. Check the weekly/monthly roundups. Even outside of Korea former BW players names show up more often.
- IEMs, ESWCs, WCGs were not WC3 tournaments. In fact, one of them even had BW in it for years before WC3.
- Yes, Korean BW players are also more talented. Not because of any magic or bias but because the competition and large talent pool.
- The foreign scene (if by that you mean the SC2 scene) didn't mostly emerge from WC3. In fact, I'd dare say the important people pushing the scene are mostly from BW than WC3. Day[9], Tastosis, NASL crew and so on. Of course the foreign scene is mostly driven by people from neither game such as MLG.
- WC3 itself doesn't get much hate. It's you fanboys and your stupid shit that creates counter-arguments that some people misunderstand as WC3 hate. It's not. It's just a response to stupid shit, like in this thread for example. We could discuss the merits of WC3 properly as well, but nobody ever starts a proper discussion. All we get is crap like this. It's you who talks crap lol. You cant argue against the fact that half of the top foreigners are ex-wc3 pros. Polt even won a GSL. Is it any significant ? And ESWC and WCG were the premier wc3 tournament since 2003 (ofc WCG 2000/01/02 didnt have wc3 cuz the game wasnt released yet lol) Show nested quote +Sigh. The sickest WC3 leagues have been in China, aside from WC3L/NGL. They're still in existence to date. bullshit. the sickest wc3 leagues asides of WC3L/NGL were the MBC PrimeLeagues in 2003-2005, WEG series in 2005, some GameX tourney in Russia with $100K for 1st place (highest winning for an RTS game). Each WCG is full of drama and stories, and ESWC was just that good. I dont care about those 2010/2011 Chinese leagues since 98% of the coolest characters in the scene had retired
To each their own. Chinese leagues were huge since 2007, ffs. Just because you don't care about the scene that became the most competitive past 2008 doesn't mean your opinion weighs in gold.
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WC3 is more of a micro based game. Obviously, macro exists and there is a lot of different multitask, but it is quite less than both BW and SC2. I think WC3 players are able to be successful in SC2 because the UI mechanics function similarly to that of in WC3, such as Automine, MBS, etc. Also, since you don't have as many units in WC3, you also only need a few hotkeys for your whole army, whereas in BW lategame scenarios, you often needed to use many more. Often in BW, you couldn't even rely on hotkeys for all of your units (Zerg late game Crackling squads etc).
Another reason I think that WC3 players are able to be so successful is that micro feels kinda similar. With no disrespect to Starcraft 2, as it is a challenging macro game, it's still easier than in Brood War, so I think having good unit and army control plays a much huger role than in Brood War. Less multitasking is required, and you're also able to take that micro to pivotal tactical engagements (drops, harass, skirmishes, etc) and make the best of them, without missing a beat macro wise. Because of things like this, WC3 players aren't weaker than former Brood War players in every single skill set. Furthermore, Brood War macro gods aren't necessarily leaps and bounds ahead because of the added simplicities to SC2 macro (although still quite good), which further mitigates Brood War experience.
One last thing, since there is less of a need to focus on macro in SC2 (compared to BW), your game plan/strategy being solid and sound is much more important than just being some guy who can make units and hurl them at the enemy.
Overall, as a player who played both BW and WC3, I think Blizzard hit the nail on the head with SC2. A well rounded set of RTS skills can make you an extremely solid player in this game.
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On October 26 2011 01:36 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 01:33 Kahlgar wrote:
people underestimating how huge wc3 was in China itt
that being said, there is no discernable skill gap between ex wc3 and ex bw players in sc2 so wether bw was the most challenging game or not (and it prolly was) becomes irrelevent Yeah MVP, MC, Nestea and most of the other Koreans played WC3, oh wait....
might have something to do with bw being a lot bigger than war3 in Korea ya know
for similar reasons the european scene is dominated by wc3 players and i have no doubt that if/when the chinese get really good at sc2, their scene will be mostly dominated by ex war3 players aswell
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EPT
