EPTWhy is there hate to wc3 players - Page 6
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aFganFlyTrap
Australia212 Posts
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Tikan
France42 Posts
he (Naniwa) doesn't think W3 deserves to be a sport. I share this opinion, as a long time player and belover of wc3 ; that doesnt mean it require less skill, you cant say that cuz basically skill grow with competition no matter what and wc3 used to be very competitive. Wc3 main issue at a pro level is randomness and I think thats why naniwa said that. Yeah, you could have a super-loot on your first creep (lets say lightning wands or w.e the name is ; xp tome ect...) and units didnt have fixed damage (every unit could deal randomly deal XX to XX damage). So skill cap might no be a problem, rng is. | ||
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OminouS
Sweden1343 Posts
Players from Korea are mostly BWplayers, and Korea is RTS/esport. Not much to argue about there. Even the 5th race from WC3 was korean. | ||
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Oktyabr
Singapore2234 Posts
On October 25 2011 23:32 Mandalor wrote: As I said, this is in comparison to bw. No - IEM, ESWC and the WCG are not as competitive as OSL or MSL. They never were. And I would argue that they are not as competitive as the GSL. And to continue, the GSL is not as competitive as the bw proleagues (yet). I'm not saying bw is a better game than sc2 or wc3 and I'm not trying to talk down on the accomplishments and the talent of pro-gamers in any of these games. All I'm saying is that we're not at a point in sc2 yet where progaming is as professional and as competitive as it is in bw. And for some reason, wc3 never made it that far. I was an avid wc3 player up until TFT hit and then I just continued to watch top games instead of playing myself. I really like the game and see it as equally suited to esports as bw, but it's easy to see that the professional scene never got big in wc3. Just look at the world cyber games as an example you talked about yourself. How many progamers were there at wcg? I'd probably say about 10 or 12? Progamers as in players who put in a very significant amount of practice hours with the best of the best. I really don't think it's more than that, probably less. In your average OSL, all of the 40 players who qualify are progamers. They had to win a ridiculously hard courage tournament (that no foreigner ever won) at one point to get progaming status, get on a team and then qualify for the league against other progamers. Let's get back to the point where I said "Progamers as in players who put in a very significant amount of practice hours with the best of the best" - all of these players fit this criteria and there's probably hundreds of amateurs that do as well. All of my posts here are adressing the OP where he was wondering why all the former bw players believe that if the top koreans from bw switched over to sc2, they would probably start to dominate at one point. The reason is that people like Flash already made it to the very top through competition that is a loooot harder than it is in sc2 right now. Sigh. The sickest WC3 leagues have been in China, aside from WC3L/NGL. They're still in existence to date. | ||
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BilltownRunner
United States229 Posts
On October 25 2011 23:30 ToguRo wrote: there is no coincidence that MVP the best BW player that switched is the best SC2 player in the world there is no coincidence that Stephano, a pretty good WC3 player that switched is the best sc2 player outside of korea. edit: How the hell do people say the game is random? Honestly if a top master level player were to play grubby he would probably not lose one unit. In SC2 there are so many more upsets which tbh is kinda shitty for the people that are actually good at this game. WC3 upsets happened so less often which made the top players more exciting to watch. | ||
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Hatorade
299 Posts
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Desirous
Canada95 Posts
On October 25 2011 23:30 fleeze wrote: umm... SC2 killed professional WC3 outside of china. this statement is absolutely true. there were huge international leagues for wc3... even an international team league with more prestige than any SC2 teamleague and the best players in it: the WC3L. also tourneys like IEM, CPL, ESWC, StarsWar and others in China i don't remember the names of. this got killed by SC2 since every tourney switched over. i wouldn't say this was bad since WC3 was clearly lacking the support of Blizzard (where is the fucking BLADEMASTER nerf!!!) and was slowly dying anyway. TL should just admit that WC3 laid the path for the success of SC2! Without WC3 there wouldn't be an INTERNATIONAL competitive scene in SC2. instead it just gets bashed as a "noob game" that requires no skill. that's sad... edit: ye just ignorant people like this... LOL WC3 didn't lay the path for the success of SC2, Brood War laid the path for the success of ALL RTS games, period. You named 4 tournaments, only 3 of which actually host sc2 competitions. One of which used to host BW tourneys as well, and the 2 remaining tournaments are so far away from being considered "premier" tournaments that you're just insulting yourself. Starswar and ESWC are the "path" that helped sc2 have an international scene? Please, if you've figured out how to move between dimensions, share it with us. That would be much more interesting than your completely ignorant opinion. And for the people with absolutely no common sense, wc3 takes less skill, this is not an opinion, this is fact. This does NOT mean that the players have less skill, and that they can't compete in other games on the same level, it just means WARCRAFT 3 takes less skill. Less micro, less macro, just less in general. Less complicated = less skill required. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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RotterdaM
Netherlands684 Posts
aight thx a lot ;p bit surprised but well, everybody has their own opinion, I wouldnt try to denie that BW in korea was very sick, because the game was so incredible hard ( since the engine was so old ) BW kinda stands on its own skillwise, then again, I don't think we will ever see an E-sports game like BW again, Wc3 and SC2 however is not THAT different. I'd say its complete rubbish to say SC2 is a lot harder than Wc3 or the other way around, then again, just my humble opinion ;D | ||
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fleeze
Germany895 Posts
On October 25 2011 23:39 OminouS wrote: Where is this hate you are talking about? Players from Korea are mostly BWplayers, and Korea is RTS/esport. Not much to argue about there. Even the 5th race from WC3 was korean. this is exactly the point. NO, korea is not RTS and not ESPORTS. it has an outstanding RTS scene and did a lot to integrate ESPORTS in society. BUT there was ESPORTS, with PROFESSIONAL players, before SC2 outside of korea. and the RTS played was WC3. it is blatantly ignorant to ignore this. On October 25 2011 23:44 Desirous wrote: LOL WC3 didn't lay the path for the success of SC2, Brood War laid the path for the success of ALL RTS games, period. You named 4 tournaments, only 3 of which actually host sc2 competitions. One of which used to host BW tourneys as well, and the 2 remaining tournaments are so far away from being considered "premier" tournaments that you're just insulting yourself. Starswar and ESWC are the "path" that helped sc2 have an international scene? Please, if you've figured out how to move between dimensions, share it with us. That would be much more interesting than your completely ignorant opinion. And for the people with absolutely no common sense, wc3 takes less skill, this is not an opinion, this is fact. This does NOT mean that the players have less skill, and that they can't compete in other games on the same level, it just means WARCRAFT 3 takes less skill. Less micro, less macro, just less in general. Less complicated = less skill required. GTFO troll. | ||
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Nasradime
France83 Posts
Being not that excited because you know they will need way more time before performing well is another deal though... | ||
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Thug[ro]
Romania340 Posts
On October 25 2011 20:48 DrGreen wrote: Maybe because "WC3 requires half or less skill which is required to play SC2" - Naniwa. haha so true :D | ||
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Squeegy
Finland1166 Posts
On October 25 2011 23:41 BilltownRunner wrote: there is no coincidence that Stephano, a pretty good WC3 player that switched is the best sc2 player outside of korea. edit: How the hell do people say the game is random? Honestly if a top master level player were to play grubby he would probably not lose one unit. In SC2 there are so many more upsets which tbh is kinda shitty for the people that are actually good at this game. WC3 upsets happened so less often which made the top players more exciting to watch. Probably because the damage done was say 10-20 and not 15. Probably because the items dropped were selected by chance. But you're right, let's ignore all stuff like that. | ||
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DoLookMoreLike
155 Posts
On October 25 2011 20:53 sleepingdog wrote: you are right on the macro-style, but the average wc3 game lasted longer than the average sc2 game....since many sc2 games are decided by 1-2 major battles after teching up / massing units the reason for that is actually quite simple: natural defense was insanely strong in wc3, there was literally no way you should ever lose a game early on You're very much in that last statement. That was probably the only thing I liked in wc3 over BW/sc2; the strong natural defenses. OT: I haven't seen any outright hate towards WC3 players. I think it's a very well known fact that foreign WC3 players are doing well. | ||
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Tommylew
Wales2717 Posts
Nani played an imabalcned race which sucked in wc3, so if Im a top player and say terran is imabalnced that automatically means that my opinion is used in every thread anywhere as a signed that wc3 must suck because Nani or a top player said so.... Please. Both different games both need a lot of work to become the best and both games people not in the top elite most probably WONT take games off you unless the is some kinda cheese involved. I would love to see the BW pros come over and NOT dominate straight away as thats what everyone is thinking will happen as this wont happen immediately. WC3 is uniquely a totally different game to Starcraft 2 and so Is BW even thought the transition would be easier from BW to SC2 then WC3 to SC2. And stop comparing the Korean RTS scheme to europe and america. Yes SC rules Korea and WC3 Ruled outside of Korea and now SC2 will overtake both of them in both areas in due course. | ||
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BilltownRunner
United States229 Posts
On October 25 2011 23:46 Squeegy wrote: Probably because the damage done was say 10-20 and not 15. Probably because the items dropped were selected by chance. But you're right, let's ignore all stuff like that. I agree that there is luck when two TOP TOP level players play, i.e. grubby and lucifron. There will be a lot of luck, but when there are only probably four players in Europe even on the top level I am saying the game isn't random, (Thorzain, grubby, lucifron, happy) because at the end of WC3 there were those untouchable players. | ||
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ragealot
432 Posts
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Desirous
Canada95 Posts
Ya, I'm a troll. Yet can you pinpoint one thing in wc3 that if played at its skill ceiling would require both accurate movements, and 15,000 APM? The highest skill ceiling is what determines which game requires the most skill, not what the current level is at, not how many tournaments are being hosted for a game, and definitely not which game paved the way for the other. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=210057 Because apparently there are tons of scenarios like that in sc2 and sc:bw. FYI: Eliminating "early game pressure" by having "strong natural defense" in wc3, essentially eliminated one skill in particular - being able to read your opponent. And indirectly skewed some other skills, like being able to react accordingly. You can't walk into a BW or SC2 game thinking "I'm going to use this strategy no matter what", doing that gets your 14 cc 6 pooled. And getting away with a 14cc means you read your opponent well. | ||
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DreamChaser
1649 Posts
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ReturnStroke
United States801 Posts
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TORTOISE
United States515 Posts
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), Orc Vs UD was prolly the match-up where this happened the most, but even then, if the UD was really better he'd win most of the time. Just the simple fact that it was the same guys winning over and over again ( yet wc3 was INCREDIBLE competitive + a ton of guys REALLY tryed to be _that_ good ) shows there was a ton of skill in this game, I mean HuK and Stephano are really tearing it up lately, but its still absolutely nothing compared to what Grubby did in late 2004 till Summer 2005, it didn't matter which tournament he attended, everybody knew he was going to win, won like 4/5/6 massive tournaments on a row ;D if that ain't skill, I wonder what is 
