EPTWhy is there hate to wc3 players - Page 7
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figq
12519 Posts
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Roggay
Switzerland6320 Posts
And anyway, they are all SC2!!! players now, not wc3 or bw. | ||
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TheToast
United States4808 Posts
On October 25 2011 23:59 Desirous wrote: @ Fleeze Ya, I'm a troll. Yet can you pinpoint one thing in wc3 that if played at its skill ceiling would require both accurate movements, and 15,000 APM? The highest skill ceiling is what determines which game requires the most skill, not what the current level is at, not how many tournaments are being hosted for a game, and definitely not which game paved the way for the other. I agree to a point. High level WC3 focused heavily on micro with less emphasis on macro. There was also less multitasking to worry about. So in that way you are correct, the apm requirements are much lower, and the skill ceiling for macroing is also much lower. However in pro-play micro is so important. One tiny micro mistake can cost you a match. So in this way the micro skill required is much, much higher. I get why some people don't like that style of play; I think you either end up loving it or hating it. Whether this helps them in SC2 I think has yet to be seen, we haven't yet seen Grubby doing well but it's only been a few months since he has switched. FYI: Eliminating "early game pressure" by having "strong natural defense" in wc3, essentially eliminated one skill in particular - being able to read your opponent. And indirectly skewed some other skills, like being able to react accordingly. You can't walk into a BW or SC2 game thinking "I'm going to use this strategy no matter what", doing that gets your 14 cc 6 pooled. And getting away with a 14cc means you read your opponent well. Yes and no. It also depends on the map and the race played. Night Elf I think had a crazy advantage in the early game in that they could wall themselves in with healing buildings, all of their production buildings could attack, and their gold miners could not be harrased. Scourge on the other hand had somewhat of a disadvantage in the early game-before TFT and the cold tower it was near game breaking. And there is some truth about opponent reading, once you knew what hero they had you could guess their strat, and there were a few matchups with fixed unit mixes (i.e. Orc versus Orc). Again the focus was really on the micro not so much the macro. But I think a discussion of WC3 balance is really unecessary right now. Back on topic I think we almost all agree that the best WC3 pros are doing well in SC2 and their WC3 fan base has really helped them. There is no "hate" holding them back, and I think this whole idea is silly. | ||
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fleeze
Germany895 Posts
On October 25 2011 23:59 Desirous wrote: @ Fleeze Ya, I'm a troll. Yet can you pinpoint one thing in wc3 that if played at its skill ceiling would require both accurate movements, and 15,000 APM? The highest skill ceiling is what determines which game requires the most skill, not what the current level is at, not how many tournaments are being hosted for a game, and definitely not which game paved the way for the other. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=210057 Because apparently there are tons of scenarios like that in sc2 and sc:bw. FYI: Eliminating "early game pressure" by having "strong natural defense" in wc3, essentially eliminated one skill in particular - being able to read your opponent. And indirectly skewed some other skills, like being able to react accordingly. You can't walk into a BW or SC2 game thinking "I'm going to use this strategy no matter what", doing that gets your 14 cc 6 pooled. And getting away with a 14cc means you read your opponent well. yes you are a troll, i did never argue on that point.... i said WC3 laid the path to the success of SC2 internationally. a statement that is HARD to argue, since WC3 was the rts played in competitive international tournaments. most of which have switched to SC2 since its release. i NEVER said anything about WC3 being as mechanically demanding or needing as much macro as SC:BW. also the competition was higher in SC:BW, i NEVER argued about that. but that doesn't mean WC3 is an inferior game. it is a DIFFERENT game where the focus was on heroes and micro in battles. nonetheless it was great to watch and had a lot of tournament support in the western world and even in korea before the map making scandal. | ||
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Msr
Korea (South)495 Posts
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PHILtheTANK
United States1834 Posts
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Longshank
1648 Posts
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Squeegy
Finland1166 Posts
On October 26 2011 00:13 Msr wrote: when wc4 comes out no top wc3 player will drop a map to a sc player for atleast a year, the second sc2 came out anybody could beat players who played broodwar for 10 years. I think it is obvious which game takes more skill but of course brood war players will never admit it. Only thing that matters now though is sc2 so that shouldn't matter too much now. I don't think by then anybody will identify themselves as WC3 players because the game will have been dead for a long time. | ||
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WaSa
Sweden749 Posts
On October 26 2011 00:15 PHILtheTANK wrote: While I loved the game, have you ever watched competitive WC3? By the end it turned into the same thing every game. Everyone is playing orc, you get your far seer and a couple grunts and battle for 55 minutes just microing grunts back and forth while applying salves to them. Its basically a macro-less game, there is only micro. Not to mention all micro just resolves around surrounding, and taking 5 mins to kill something. I played WC3 way too much, but the competitive scene was at best mediocre. What era are you now speaking of? I stopped following the scene in 2006 but and back then, it wasn't like that at all. The races were decently balanced (except nelfs) and people hadn't figured out everything yet. You saw new strategies develop all the time and meta shift like every 2-3 months. BW is more monotonous to me albeit a better spectator 'sport'. | ||
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robih
Austria1086 Posts
yet i dont see how BW needed more "skill" asides from mastering the shitty interface and desirous never played wc3 on a level anywhere near "decent" or is just plain stupid | ||
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Lukeeze[zR]
Switzerland6838 Posts
On October 26 2011 00:15 PHILtheTANK wrote: While I loved the game, have you ever watched competitive WC3? By the end it turned into the same thing every game. Everyone is playing orc, you get your far seer and a couple grunts and battle for 55 minutes just microing grunts back and forth while applying salves to them. Its basically a macro-less game, there is only micro. Not to mention all micro just resolves around surrounding, and taking 5 mins to kill something. I played WC3 way too much, but the competitive scene was at best mediocre. lol farseer and grunts, which competitive wc3 did you exactly watch ? Blademaster and raiders were orc's bread&butter | ||
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Kamikiri
United States1319 Posts
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HaXXspetten
Sweden15718 Posts
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Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
On October 25 2011 23:37 TheToast wrote: Exactly what was your point then? What I got out of your post is that vaguely defined 'sad teenagers' want only their own thing to be cool and hate everything else. My point (while admittely a bit rambly, sorry) was that WC3 ran its course and now the players are moving to SC2 successfully, despite whatever 'sad teenagers' think. While I'm not entirely familiar with what SC fans though of WC3 during BW days (I was busy playing TFT) I don't see any "hate" holding back former WC3 players in the SC2 scene right now. In fact crazy fans of Grubby like myself are probably helping them more than anything. Yes, this. Simple, there's a lot of teens, even right now, who hate 'the other games' and feel threatened or the need to feel superior. You are right though, the wc3 players have been embraced. Because they are fucking good (and generally work harder)! | ||
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Offhand
United States1869 Posts
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
On October 25 2011 23:11 RotterdaM wrote: Actually wonder where Johan/Nani said that cause tbh when I spoke with him in the past he always spoke very highly of wc3 oO, he loved the game and had a lot of passion for it from time to time  I could know since we were teammates for quite a while, he did pick a rather unfortunate race but then again, it was mostly about the maps. There's actually a lot of nonsense in this thread ;D wonder how many of you actually played Wc3 ;p. Saying Wc3 was easy is bullshit , if anything everybody who ever played and followed the pro scene closely knew that upsets did not happen _very_ often, just because there was an insane amount of skill and every single season you'd see the same guys (grubby/tod/creo/deadman) with the best win records in Wc3l since it was just _VERY_ hard for an inferior player to beat a guy thats actually better than you ( While as we all know, this happens quite often in SC2 , ask Greg!  ), Orc Vs UD was prolly the match-up where this happened the most, but even then, if the UD was really better he'd win most of the time. Just the simple fact that it was the same guys winning over and over again ( yet wc3 was INCREDIBLE competitive + a ton of guys REALLY tryed to be _that_ good ) shows there was a ton of skill in this game, I mean HuK and Stephano are really tearing it up lately, but its still absolutely nothing compared to what Grubby did in late 2004 till Summer 2005, it didn't matter which tournament he attended, everybody knew he was going to win, won like 4/5/6 massive tournaments on a row ;D if that ain't skill, I wonder what is ,aa anyway to much text, to much passion when I'm writing bout Wc3 ;D, missing dem good old days <3 ;D hf with the discussion Nostalgia ... Wc3, an amazing game ... And indeed, there was no cheese, just lame strat (tower rush hu/ne on turtle rock in close pose, i hate you) | ||
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
What many ppl here disregard is, that SC2 is easier than SC:BW and players that did very well in WC3 or other games probably have the skills necessary to learn these lessons from SC:BW very fast. Also, WC3-players can copy playstyles/builds/ways to think by the ex SC:BW-Pros, so they don't need to have the RTS-Brain you needed to play SC:BW on a higher level. | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4139 Posts
On October 26 2011 00:22 robih wrote: well BW needed more apm because the mechanics are old and tbh totally suck yet i dont see how BW needed more "skill" asides from mastering the shitty interface and desirous never played wc3 on a level anywhere near "decent" or is just plain stupid I hate posts like this, you basically just state how shitty the graphics and interface are, brush it aside and probaby didnt make an effort to watch it. I never watched much WC3 and I don't go around making posts about how WC3 sucks, so please respect our game. | ||
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Horse...falcon
United States1851 Posts
CS players hate CoD players Dota players hate LoL players Get over it | ||
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Bobster
Germany3075 Posts
Time to put the past behind us, doesn't matter which game they played before, WC3 or BW or DoWII or Quake or whatever. They're all SC2 players now. | ||
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