On October 25 2011 22:59 Beyonder wrote: Because sadly, half of the community (or more) consists of sad angry teenage nerds that only want their 'own thing' to be 'awesome' and 'succeed'. Its the same with the hate for LoL, wow, or any other game. It's pathetic and selfish. Other stuff than BW or Sc2 can be awesome, people have different opinions or experiences.
The fact that about half the people here try to make WC3 as the less skilled game is in itself absolutely pathetic. Its what the BW players say about SC2, the chess players say about checkers, and so on.
Ex-Wc3 players are amazing at SC2, and lets thank everyone that the two communities united half decently.
Other stuff than BW or Sc2 can be awesome, people have different opinions or experiences. LoL frequently has more viewers than SC2, omg!!11 Be happy that people are enjoying a game. Teen angst ftl.
On October 25 2011 22:59 Beyonder wrote: Because sadly, half of the community (or more) consists of sad angry teenage nerds that only want their 'own thing' to be 'awesome' and 'succeed'. Its the same with the hate for LoL, wow, or any other game. It's pathetic and selfish. Other stuff than BW or Sc2 can be awesome, people have different opinions or experiences.
The fact that about half the people here try to make WC3 as the less skilled game is in itself absolutely pathetic. Its what the BW players say about SC2, the chess players say about checkers, and so on.
Ex-Wc3 players are amazing at SC2, and lets thank everyone that the two communities united half decently.
Other stuff than BW or Sc2 can be awesome, people have different opinions or experiences. LoL frequently has more viewers than SC2, omg!!11 Be happy that people are enjoying a game. Teen angst ftl.
....wut
Before I respond I want you to know that I am a huge WC3 fan. I must have spent 50% of my free time between 2004-2006 playing WC3 and TFT. In college I failed Finance 300 because I spent all my time that semester playing TFT instead of studying. heh heh
So believe me when I say SC2 did not kill WC3. BW also did not kill WC3. TFT lasted for 7 friggin years. I sort of get the feeling that you are pasting the BW versus SC2 viewpoint to the WC3 situation and it's really not the same. There were never huge international leagues like the OSL or GSL to keep WC3 alive, it never had enigmatic players like idrA, the fan base never reached the size of BW and SC2, and there was never such a robust map making community--its fate was inevitable.
WC3 ran its course and people moved on to something new. Frankly that's one of the aspects of Esports I really love; anything is possible, any type of competition, in any form. While I was sad to see WC3 die away I was stoked because I would get to see players like my Orc hero Grubby play on in SC2.
There is no WC3 versus SC2 malice or competition, there never was, and likely there never will be.
On October 25 2011 23:11 RotterdaM wrote: Actually wonder where Johan/Nani said that cause tbh when I spoke with him in the past he always spoke very highly of wc3 oO, he loved the game and had a lot of passion for it from time to time I could know since we were teammates for quite a while, he did pick a rather unfortunate race but then again, it was mostly about the maps. There's actually a lot of nonsense in this thread ;D wonder how many of you actually played Wc3 ;p. Saying Wc3 was easy is bullshit , if anything everybody who ever played and followed the pro scene closely knew that upsets did not happen _very_ often, just because there was an insane amount of skill and every single season you'd see the same guys (grubby/tod/creo/deadman) with the best win records in Wc3l since it was just _VERY_ hard for an inferior player to beat a guy thats actually better than you ( While as we all know, this happens quite often in SC2 , ask Greg! ), Orc Vs UD was prolly the match-up where this happened the most, but even then, if the UD was really better he'd win most of the time. Just the simple fact that it was the same guys winning over and over again ( yet wc3 was INCREDIBLE competitive + a ton of guys REALLY tryed to be _that_ good ) shows there was a ton of skill in this game, I mean HuK and Stephano are really tearing it up lately, but its still absolutely nothing compared to what Grubby did in late 2004 till Summer 2005, it didn't matter which tournament he attended, everybody knew he was going to win, won like 4/5/6 massive tournaments on a row ;D if that ain't skill, I wonder what is ,
aa anyway to much text, to much passion when I'm writing bout Wc3 ;D, missing dem good old days <3 ;D hf with the discussion
On October 25 2011 22:59 Beyonder wrote: Because sadly, half of the community (or more) consists of sad angry teenage nerds that only want their 'own thing' to be 'awesome' and 'succeed'. Its the same with the hate for LoL, wow, or any other game. It's pathetic and selfish. Other stuff than BW or Sc2 can be awesome, people have different opinions or experiences.
The fact that about half the people here try to make WC3 as the less skilled game is in itself absolutely pathetic. Its what the BW players say about SC2, the chess players say about checkers, and so on.
Ex-Wc3 players are amazing at SC2, and lets thank everyone that the two communities united half decently.
Other stuff than BW or Sc2 can be awesome, people have different opinions or experiences. LoL frequently has more viewers than SC2, omg!!11 Be happy that people are enjoying a game. Teen angst ftl.
....wut
Before I respond I want you to know that I am a huge WC3 fan. I must have spent 50% of my free time between 2004-2006 playing WC3 and TFT. In college I failed Finance 300 because I spent all my time playing TFT instead of studying. heh heh
So believe me when I say SC2 did not kill WC3. BW also did not kill WC3. TFT lasted for 7 friggin years. I sort of get the feeling that you are pasting the BW versus SC2 viewpoint to the WC3 situation and it's really not the same. There were never huge international leagues like the OSL or GSL to keep WC3 alive, it never had enigmatic players like idrA, the fan base never reached the size of BW and SC2--its fate was inevitable.
WC3 ran its course and people moved on to something new. Frankly that's one of the aspects of Esports I really love; anything is possible, any type of competition, in any form. While I was sad to see WC3 die away I was stoked because I would get to see players like my Orc hero Grubby play on in SC2.
There is no WC3 versus SC2 malice or competition, there never was, and likely there never will be.
Aside from wc3 taking a lot less skill, my only hate towards the game is not of its players who switched over to competitive sc2, but to its community that switched over with them. The reason is that you are all becoming fanboys of people that, in brood war, were known hackers or abusers like dimaga, haypro, and huk. I'm pretty sure dimaga is even banned from all future TSLs because of his abuse. Imagine if in wc4 we started cheering for your unscrupulous players.
@Beyonder
We're not arguing that our "thing" is more awesome, we're saying it takes more skill. This is undoubtedly true for anyone who has a modicum of intelligence.
Oh, and for the record, Chess does take more intelligence than checkers.
On October 25 2011 22:59 Beyonder wrote: Because sadly, half of the community (or more) consists of sad angry teenage nerds that only want their 'own thing' to be 'awesome' and 'succeed'. Its the same with the hate for LoL, wow, or any other game. It's pathetic and selfish. Other stuff than BW or Sc2 can be awesome, people have different opinions or experiences.
The fact that about half the people here try to make WC3 as the less skilled game is in itself absolutely pathetic. Its what the BW players say about SC2, the chess players say about checkers, and so on.
Ex-Wc3 players are amazing at SC2, and lets thank everyone that the two communities united half decently.
Other stuff than BW or Sc2 can be awesome, people have different opinions or experiences. LoL frequently has more viewers than SC2, omg!!11 Be happy that people are enjoying a game. Teen angst ftl.
....wut
Before I respond I want you to know that I am a huge WC3 fan. I must have spent 50% of my free time between 2004-2006 playing WC3 and TFT. In college I failed Finance 300 because I spent all my time playing TFT instead of studying. heh heh
So believe me when I say SC2 did not kill WC3. BW also did not kill WC3. TFT lasted for 7 friggin years. I sort of get the feeling that you are pasting the BW versus SC2 viewpoint to the WC3 situation and it's really not the same. There were never huge international leagues like the OSL or GSL to keep WC3 alive, it never had enigmatic players like idrA, the fan base never reached the size of BW and SC2--its fate was inevitable.
WC3 ran its course and people moved on to something new. Frankly that's one of the aspects of Esports I really love; anything is possible, any type of competition, in any form. While I was sad to see WC3 die away I was stoked because I would get to see players like my Orc hero Grubby play on in SC2.
There is no WC3 versus SC2 malice or competition, there never was, and likely there never will be.
For half of your points I have no idea what you're responding to or who, but it cannot be my post. For the part that I do get, there was TONS of 'hate' for WC3 and its players (low skilled game, no macro, easy, etc), especially in the BW days, and there still is. And I've been heavilly involved in all three communities (BW/SC2/WC3).
On October 25 2011 22:59 Beyonder wrote: Because sadly, half of the community (or more) consists of sad angry teenage nerds that only want their 'own thing' to be 'awesome' and 'succeed'. Its the same with the hate for LoL, wow, or any other game. It's pathetic and selfish. Other stuff than BW or Sc2 can be awesome, people have different opinions or experiences.
The fact that about half the people here try to make WC3 as the less skilled game is in itself absolutely pathetic. Its what the BW players say about SC2, the chess players say about checkers, and so on.
Ex-Wc3 players are amazing at SC2, and lets thank everyone that the two communities united half decently.
Other stuff than BW or Sc2 can be awesome, people have different opinions or experiences. LoL frequently has more viewers than SC2, omg!!11 Be happy that people are enjoying a game. Teen angst ftl.
....wut
Before I respond I want you to know that I am a huge WC3 fan. I must have spent 50% of my free time between 2004-2006 playing WC3 and TFT. In college I failed Finance 300 because I spent all my time that semester playing TFT instead of studying. heh heh
So believe me when I say SC2 did not kill WC3. BW also did not kill WC3. TFT lasted for 7 friggin years. I sort of get the feeling that you are pasting the BW versus SC2 viewpoint to the WC3 situation and it's really not the same. There were never huge international leagues like the OSL or GSL to keep WC3 alive, it never had enigmatic players like idrA, the fan base never reached the size of BW and SC2, and there was never such a robust map making community--its fate was inevitable.
WC3 ran its course and people moved on to something new. Frankly that's one of the aspects of Esports I really love; anything is possible, any type of competition, in any form. While I was sad to see WC3 die away I was stoked because I would get to see players like my Orc hero Grubby play on in SC2.
There is no WC3 versus SC2 malice or competition, there never was, and likely there never will be.
the was wc3 leagues in korea to start with, then the map fixing incident and it all went down hill and it never got picked up again.
SC paved the way for WC3 and that paved the way for sc2 same as sc2 will pave the way for wc4 and then possibiily sc3. Each game has helped the other go that little bit further. Without wc3 would we of had this many foriegn tournaments whcih have been built up from wc3?
The reactionary elitist broodwar die hards look down on anything that isn't broodwar. It is not only w3 they look down on. Most of them even hate on sc2 even though it's basically broodwar 1.2 ;-) I mean a broodwar friend of mine didn't even get sc2 because he didn't feel there was enough of a difference between them. Just check the gui of supreme commander where the map is the minimap that's what i expected sc2 to have. The first time I used the mousewheel it felt like I had a straightjacket on. Took me quite a while to accept that they kept sc2 oldschool for a reason.
I mean having to send every worker mining by hand doesn't really make broodwar harder/more complex/better.
On October 25 2011 23:24 Desirous wrote: Aside from wc3 taking a lot less skill, my only hate towards the game is not of its players who switched over to competitive sc2, but to its community that switched over with them. The reason is that you are all becoming fanboys of people that, in brood war, were known hackers or abusers like dimaga, haypro, and huk. I'm pretty sure dimaga is even banned from all future TSLs because of his abuse. Imagine if in wc4 we started cheering for your unscrupulous players.
I would cheer for IPXZerg if he was SC2 player with all my heart.
Why? Because the average fan of a WC3-player is dumb as a boot.
- Former WC3 players do not dominate the scene or do extremely well compared to their BW brothers. Check the weekly/monthly roundups. Even outside of Korea former BW players names show up more often.
- IEMs, ESWCs, WCGs were not WC3 tournaments. In fact, one of them even had BW in it for years before WC3.
- Yes, Korean BW players are also more talented. Not because of any magic or bias but because the competition and large talent pool.
- The foreign scene (if by that you mean the SC2 scene) didn't mostly emerge from WC3. In fact, I'd dare say the important people pushing the scene are mostly from BW than WC3. Day[9], Tastosis, NASL crew and so on. Of course the foreign scene is mostly driven by people from neither game such as MLG.
- WC3 itself doesn't get much hate. It's you fanboys and your stupid shit that creates counter-arguments that some people misunderstand as WC3 hate. It's not. It's just a response to stupid shit, like in this thread for example. We could discuss the merits of WC3 properly as well, but nobody ever starts a proper discussion. All we get is crap like this.
madfrog, elky(played some and actually won a few leagues in the beginning of WC3, even played for SK), heman, insomnia(Mr.X) etc.. Select won WCG with DOW(dawn of war i think) etc..
So the skillset is the same since it's the same genre but they are very different games!
Whoever wins deserves it and that's it.. Will Grubby will have the same success? time will tell..
For me people that have RTS skill (and i'm not talking about winning games on ladder.. i'm talking about winning tournaments) will always be good but to take it to the next level they need the same practice any other pro does.. Giving the same effort and with the same type of training then it's all about personal skill and luck.
On October 25 2011 22:59 Beyonder wrote: Because sadly, half of the community (or more) consists of sad angry teenage nerds that only want their 'own thing' to be 'awesome' and 'succeed'. Its the same with the hate for LoL, wow, or any other game. It's pathetic and selfish. Other stuff than BW or Sc2 can be awesome, people have different opinions or experiences.
The fact that about half the people here try to make WC3 as the less skilled game is in itself absolutely pathetic. Its what the BW players say about SC2, the chess players say about checkers, and so on.
Ex-Wc3 players are amazing at SC2, and lets thank everyone that the two communities united half decently.
Other stuff than BW or Sc2 can be awesome, people have different opinions or experiences. LoL frequently has more viewers than SC2, omg!!11 Be happy that people are enjoying a game. Teen angst ftl.
....wut
Before I respond I want you to know that I am a huge WC3 fan. I must have spent 50% of my free time between 2004-2006 playing WC3 and TFT. In college I failed Finance 300 because I spent all my time playing TFT instead of studying. heh heh
So believe me when I say SC2 did not kill WC3. BW also did not kill WC3. TFT lasted for 7 friggin years. I sort of get the feeling that you are pasting the BW versus SC2 viewpoint to the WC3 situation and it's really not the same. There were never huge international leagues like the OSL or GSL to keep WC3 alive, it never had enigmatic players like idrA, the fan base never reached the size of BW and SC2--its fate was inevitable.
WC3 ran its course and people moved on to something new. Frankly that's one of the aspects of Esports I really love; anything is possible, any type of competition, in any form. While I was sad to see WC3 die away I was stoked because I would get to see players like my Orc hero Grubby play on in SC2.
There is no WC3 versus SC2 malice or competition, there never was, and likely there never will be.
umm... SC2 killed professional WC3 outside of china. this statement is absolutely true. there were huge international leagues for wc3... even an international team league with more prestige than any SC2 teamleague and the best players in it: the WC3L. also tourneys like IEM, CPL, ESWC, StarsWar and others in China i don't remember the names of. this got killed by SC2 since every tourney switched over.
i wouldn't say this was bad since WC3 was clearly lacking the support of Blizzard (where is the fucking BLADEMASTER nerf!!!) and was slowly dying anyway.
TL should just admit that WC3 laid the path for the success of SC2! Without WC3 there wouldn't be an INTERNATIONAL competitive scene in SC2. instead it just gets bashed as a "noob game" that requires no skill. that's sad...
edit: ye just ignorant people like this...
On October 25 2011 23:24 Desirous wrote: Aside from wc3 taking a lot less skill, my only hate towards the game is not of its players who switched over to competitive sc2, but to its community that switched over with them. The reason is that you are all becoming fanboys of people that, in brood war, were known hackers or abusers like dimaga, haypro, and huk. I'm pretty sure dimaga is even banned from all future TSLs because of his abuse. Imagine if in wc4 we started cheering for your unscrupulous players.
@Beyonder
We're not arguing that our "thing" is more awesome, we're saying it takes more skill. This is undoubtedly true for anyone who has a modicum of intelligence.
Oh, and for the record, Chess does take more intelligence than checkers.
Quite sidenote: Will there even be a WC4? I highly doubt it since Blizzard are working on a totally new lorebase, and WoW will probably kill of the storyline of the Warcraft Universe (look who's already being killed. That leaves...Nozordomo and Sargares as the main villains now?)
In terms of the hate, I think it linked a lot to the fact that at the start WC3 players favoured 1-2base play a lot, and micro their units plenty (this is a generalisation.) This wasa period where we were all demanding macro games, since we were sick of the cheese and the all-ins (GSL Open Season 2 comes to mind.) People have just not forgotten those parts
To be honest, i haven't seen any of this supposed WC3 hatred, the only time i saw that was the day after the SC2 announcement where 1-2people said things like "lol silly WC3'ers think they have a chance!"
On October 25 2011 21:32 fleeze wrote: well, that's teamliquid. sc:bw biased as hell. i would agree that the BW pro scene in KOREA is ahead and every switching progamer will make a huge impact. but for the foreign scene the same can be said about WC3. BW was non-existent compared to WC3 in europe. WC3 had a VERY competitive scene and many huge tournaments.
nowadays it's called ESPORTS and attributed solely to SC2 / SC:BW. a pretty big mistake since the foreign scene and tournaments mostly emerged out of the WC3 scene.
there were IEMs, ESWCs, WCGs, Zotac Cups, Go4WC3s, etc. before. they just played WC3 which was unnoticed and denounced on teamliquid. not to forget the other big esports titles: CS 1.6, Quake, UT, even FIFA.
On October 03 2011 13:35 Naniwa wrote:
On October 03 2011 13:16 Valikyr wrote: Thanks, great interview but I dont quite agree with his views on WC3. Feels like he is saying that partly because he was a failed progamer in that game (but yes ofc both BW and SC2 is more competetive).
Naniwa fighting though!
was there any successful undead progamer ? xD also i never played wc3 fulltime ^^
Sweet was a very successful undead pro. Ted was good too, but never really on the top.
You blame TL for focussing on sc:bw? that's there soul?
Be glad they don't spend time/effort to the cs 1.6, quake etc. scene. Then this would be just another website filled with annoying kids.
sorry sounded a bit ranty i don't blame tl for the focus but for ignoring everything the WC3 scene achieved in foreign ESPORTS. without WC3, SC2 would be nowhere as big as it is now. and for using SC and ESPORTS as synonyms which they aren't. esports would exist, even without sc2.
On October 25 2011 21:32 fleeze wrote: well, that's teamliquid. sc:bw biased as hell. i would agree that the BW pro scene in KOREA is ahead and every switching progamer will make a huge impact. but for the foreign scene the same can be said about WC3. BW was non-existent compared to WC3 in europe. WC3 had a VERY competitive scene and many huge tournaments.
nowadays it's called ESPORTS and attributed solely to SC2 / SC:BW. a pretty big mistake since the foreign scene and tournaments mostly emerged out of the WC3 scene.
there were IEMs, ESWCs, WCGs, Zotac Cups, Go4WC3s, etc. before. they just played WC3 which was unnoticed and denounced on teamliquid. not to forget the other big esports titles: CS 1.6, Quake, UT, even FIFA.
why do people always have to take things personally. Saying the competive scene of wc3 is a lot smaller and less competive than the bw scene in korea is not denouncing the game of wc3! At all. You absolutely cannot compare foreign wc3 with bw in korea. That's not hate, bias or anything. Educate yourself, look at how strict the training for pro-gamers is in their respective games. Look at how many people there are who consider pro-gaming their job in each game. Look at the number and the size of professional gaming teams and the huge prize pool tournaments in each game.
i didn't compare foreign WC3 with BW in korea... but before SC2, WC3 and CS where the pillars of esports outside of korea. would you argue with that statement?
None of the tournaments you listed are of any importance, be it prize money or density of competition compared to proleagues. I mean you bring in zotac cups and go4sc2. Are you kidding? No pro-gamers plays these today unless they're incredibly bored. And that's sc2 pro-gamers. No bw pro would ever participate in sth like this, ever.
WHAT? are you kidding... i mentioned IEM, ESWC and WCG! the only BIG tourneys missing are TSL (obviously :D), IPL (new) and MLG (halo / console lol). i could add Dreamhack, Assembly, ASUS ROG, etc... nearly all big tourney had WC3 before SC2... btw, i mentioned the weekly tourneys because they are popular and important for the community. and have their roots in the beginning of WC3 (Go4Wc3, the mother of weeklys.).
WC3 is a great game and players like Grubby and Moon had amazing accomplishments, but their tournament wins don't feel a lot different than players winning huge FIFA tournaments. It's just not as amazing of a feat as winning proleague(s), because the competition is a lot weaker.
you didn't follow the scene then. there was a lot of competition (though lower as in BW/korea). and Creolophus winning the WCG against sky or Grubby beating Moon are some of the greatest games in ESPORTS.
As I said, this is in comparison to bw. No - IEM, ESWC and the WCG are not as competitive as OSL or MSL. They never were. And I would argue that they are not as competitive as the GSL. And to continue, the GSL is not as competitive as the bw proleagues (yet). I'm not saying bw is a better game than sc2 or wc3 and I'm not trying to talk down on the accomplishments and the talent of pro-gamers in any of these games. All I'm saying is that we're not at a point in sc2 yet where progaming is as professional and as competitive as it is in bw. And for some reason, wc3 never made it that far.
I was an avid wc3 player up until TFT hit and then I just continued to watch top games instead of playing myself. I really like the game and see it as equally suited to esports as bw, but it's easy to see that the professional scene never got big in wc3. Just look at the world cyber games as an example you talked about yourself. How many progamers were there at wcg? I'd probably say about 10 or 12? Progamers as in players who put in a very significant amount of practice hours with the best of the best. I really don't think it's more than that, probably less.
In your average OSL, all of the 40 players who qualify are progamers. They had to win a ridiculously hard courage tournament (that no foreigner ever won) at one point to get progaming status, get on a team and then qualify for the league against other progamers. Let's get back to the point where I said "Progamers as in players who put in a very significant amount of practice hours with the best of the best" - all of these players fit this criteria and there's probably hundreds of amateurs that do as well.
All of my posts here are adressing the OP where he was wondering why all the former bw players believe that if the top koreans from bw switched over to sc2, they would probably start to dominate at one point. The reason is that people like Flash already made it to the very top through competition that is a loooot harder than it is in sc2 right now.
On October 25 2011 21:32 fleeze wrote: well, that's teamliquid. sc:bw biased as hell. i would agree that the BW pro scene in KOREA is ahead and every switching progamer will make a huge impact. but for the foreign scene the same can be said about WC3. BW was non-existent compared to WC3 in europe. WC3 had a VERY competitive scene and many huge tournaments.
nowadays it's called ESPORTS and attributed solely to SC2 / SC:BW. a pretty big mistake since the foreign scene and tournaments mostly emerged out of the WC3 scene.
there were IEMs, ESWCs, WCGs, Zotac Cups, Go4WC3s, etc. before. they just played WC3 which was unnoticed and denounced on teamliquid. not to forget the other big esports titles: CS 1.6, Quake, UT, even FIFA.
On October 03 2011 13:35 Naniwa wrote:
On October 03 2011 13:16 Valikyr wrote: Thanks, great interview but I dont quite agree with his views on WC3. Feels like he is saying that partly because he was a failed progamer in that game (but yes ofc both BW and SC2 is more competetive).
Naniwa fighting though!
was there any successful undead progamer ? xD also i never played wc3 fulltime ^^
Sweet was a very successful undead pro. Ted was good too, but never really on the top.
You blame TL for focussing on sc:bw? that's there soul?
Be glad they don't spend time/effort to the cs 1.6, quake etc. scene. Then this would be just another website filled with annoying kids.
sorry sounded a bit ranty i don't blame tl for the focus but for ignoring everything the WC3 scene achieved in foreign ESPORTS. without WC3, SC2 would be nowhere as big as it is now. and for using SC and ESPORTS as synonyms which they aren't. esports would exist, even without sc2.
On October 25 2011 21:50 Mandalor wrote:
On October 25 2011 21:32 fleeze wrote: well, that's teamliquid. sc:bw biased as hell. i would agree that the BW pro scene in KOREA is ahead and every switching progamer will make a huge impact. but for the foreign scene the same can be said about WC3. BW was non-existent compared to WC3 in europe. WC3 had a VERY competitive scene and many huge tournaments.
nowadays it's called ESPORTS and attributed solely to SC2 / SC:BW. a pretty big mistake since the foreign scene and tournaments mostly emerged out of the WC3 scene.
there were IEMs, ESWCs, WCGs, Zotac Cups, Go4WC3s, etc. before. they just played WC3 which was unnoticed and denounced on teamliquid. not to forget the other big esports titles: CS 1.6, Quake, UT, even FIFA.
why do people always have to take things personally. Saying the competive scene of wc3 is a lot smaller and less competive than the bw scene in korea is not denouncing the game of wc3! At all. You absolutely cannot compare foreign wc3 with bw in korea. That's not hate, bias or anything. Educate yourself, look at how strict the training for pro-gamers is in their respective games. Look at how many people there are who consider pro-gaming their job in each game. Look at the number and the size of professional gaming teams and the huge prize pool tournaments in each game.
i didn't compare foreign WC3 with BW in korea... but before SC2, WC3 and CS where the pillars of esports outside of korea. would you argue with that statement?
None of the tournaments you listed are of any importance, be it prize money or density of competition compared to proleagues. I mean you bring in zotac cups and go4sc2. Are you kidding? No pro-gamers plays these today unless they're incredibly bored. And that's sc2 pro-gamers. No bw pro would ever participate in sth like this, ever.
WHAT? are you kidding... i mentioned IEM, ESWC and WCG! the only BIG tourneys missing are TSL (obviously :D), IPL (new) and MLG (halo / console lol). i could add Dreamhack, Assembly, ASUS ROG, etc... nearly all big tourney had WC3 before SC2... btw, i mentioned the weekly tourneys because they are popular and important for the community. and have their roots in the beginning of WC3 (Go4Wc3, the mother of weeklys.).
WC3 is a great game and players like Grubby and Moon had amazing accomplishments, but their tournament wins don't feel a lot different than players winning huge FIFA tournaments. It's just not as amazing of a feat as winning proleague(s), because the competition is a lot weaker.
you didn't follow the scene then. there was a lot of competition (though lower as in BW/korea). and Creolophus winning the WCG against sky or Grubby beating Moon are some of the greatest games in ESPORTS.
As I said, this is in comparison to bw. No - IEM, ESWC and the WCG are not as competitive as OSL or MSL. They never were. And I would argue that they are not as competitive as the GSL. And to continue, the GSL is not as competitive as the bw proleagues (yet). I'm not saying bw is a better game than sc2 or wc3 and I'm not trying to talk down on the accomplishments and the talent of pro-gamers in any of these games. All I'm saying is that we're not at a point in sc2 yet where progaming is as professional and as competitive as it is in bw. And for some reason, wc3 never made it that far.
I was an avid wc3 player up until TFT hit and then I just continued to watch top games instead of playing myself. I really like the game and see it as equally suited to esports as bw, but it's easy to see that the professional scene never got big in wc3. Just look at the world cyber games as an example you talked about yourself. How many progamers were there at wcg? I'd probably say about 10 or 12? Progamers as in players who put in a very significant amount of practice hours with the best of the best. I really don't think it's more than that, probably less.
In your average OSL, all of the 40 players who qualify are progamers. They had to win a ridiculously hard courage tournament (that no foreigner ever won) at one point to get progaming status, get on a team and then qualify for the league against other progamers. Let's get back to the point where I said "Progamers as in players who put in a very significant amount of practice hours with the best of the best" - all of these players fit this criteria and there's probably hundreds of amateurs that do as well.
All of my posts here are adressing the OP where he was wondering why all the former bw players believe that if the top koreans from bw switched over to sc2, they would probably start to dominate at one point. The reason is that people like Flash already made it to the very top through competition that is a loooot harder than it is in sc2 right now.
could you please STFU comparing an individual SC league in KOREA to the INTERNATIONAL competition (involving KOREANS) in WC3?
On October 25 2011 23:30 ToguRo wrote: there is no coincidence that MVP the best BW player that switched is the best SC2 player in the world
Nice argument.. what about nestea that was a scrub player in BW left the game years ago and is now the 2nd best sc2 player in the world?
so your argument proves what? that mvp is the best because he practices more and better then the others probably.. Team with better players produces even better players right?
On October 25 2011 22:59 Beyonder wrote: Because sadly, half of the community (or more) consists of sad angry teenage nerds that only want their 'own thing' to be 'awesome' and 'succeed'. Its the same with the hate for LoL, wow, or any other game. It's pathetic and selfish. Other stuff than BW or Sc2 can be awesome, people have different opinions or experiences.
The fact that about half the people here try to make WC3 as the less skilled game is in itself absolutely pathetic. Its what the BW players say about SC2, the chess players say about checkers, and so on.
Ex-Wc3 players are amazing at SC2, and lets thank everyone that the two communities united half decently.
Other stuff than BW or Sc2 can be awesome, people have different opinions or experiences. LoL frequently has more viewers than SC2, omg!!11 Be happy that people are enjoying a game. Teen angst ftl.
....wut
Before I respond I want you to know that I am a huge WC3 fan. I must have spent 50% of my free time between 2004-2006 playing WC3 and TFT. In college I failed Finance 300 because I spent all my time playing TFT instead of studying. heh heh
So believe me when I say SC2 did not kill WC3. BW also did not kill WC3. TFT lasted for 7 friggin years. I sort of get the feeling that you are pasting the BW versus SC2 viewpoint to the WC3 situation and it's really not the same. There were never huge international leagues like the OSL or GSL to keep WC3 alive, it never had enigmatic players like idrA, the fan base never reached the size of BW and SC2--its fate was inevitable.
WC3 ran its course and people moved on to something new. Frankly that's one of the aspects of Esports I really love; anything is possible, any type of competition, in any form. While I was sad to see WC3 die away I was stoked because I would get to see players like my Orc hero Grubby play on in SC2.
There is no WC3 versus SC2 malice or competition, there never was, and likely there never will be.
For half of your points I have no idea what you're responding to or who, but it cannot be my post. For the part that I do get, there was TONS of 'hate' for WC3 and its players (low skilled game, no macro, easy, etc), especially in the BW days, and there still is. And I've been heavilly involved in all three communities (BW/SC2/WC3).
Exactly what was your point then? What I got out of your post is that vaguely defined 'sad teenagers' want only their own thing to be cool and hate everything else. My point (while admittely a bit rambly, sorry) was that WC3 ran its course and now the players are moving to SC2 successfully, despite whatever 'sad teenagers' think.
While I'm not entirely familiar with what SC fans though of WC3 during BW days (I was busy playing TFT) I don't see any "hate" holding back former WC3 players in the SC2 scene right now. In fact crazy fans of Grubby like myself are probably helping them more than anything.
On October 25 2011 23:27 Tommylew wrote:
SC paved the way for WC3 and that paved the way for sc2 same as sc2 will pave the way for wc4 and then possibiily sc3. Each game has helped the other go that little bit further. Without wc3 would we of had this many foriegn tournaments whcih have been built up from wc3?
EPT
I could know since we were teammates for quite a while, he did pick a rather unfortunate race but then again, it was mostly about the maps. There's actually a lot of nonsense in this thread ;D wonder how many of you actually played Wc3 ;p. Saying Wc3 was easy is bullshit 
), Orc Vs UD was prolly the match-up where this happened the most, but even then, if the UD was really better he'd win most of the time. Just the simple fact that it was the same guys winning over and over again ( yet wc3 was INCREDIBLE competitive + a ton of guys REALLY tryed to be _that_ good ) shows there was a ton of skill in this game, I mean HuK and Stephano are really tearing it up lately, but its still absolutely nothing compared to what Grubby did in late 2004 till Summer 2005, it didn't matter which tournament he attended, everybody knew he was going to win, won like 4/5/6 massive tournaments on a row ;D if that ain't skill, I wonder what is 
