Why is there hate to wc3 players

On October 25 2011 20:49 Fionn wrote:
Polt was a WC3 player and has won a GSL.

The main reason a lot of BW purists hate WC3 players is because a lot of them are more micro-oriented than playing long, macro-style games that a lot of Brood War players bring.

On October 25 2011 20:48 DrGreen wrote:
Maybe because "WC3 requires half or less skill which is required to play SC2" - Naniwa.

On October 25 2011 20:46 Kroml. wrote:
this debate is so 2010...

On October 25 2011 20:53 sleepingdog wrote:


you are right on the macro-style, but the average wc3 game lasted longer than the average sc2 game....since many sc2 games are decided by 1-2 major battles after teching up / massing units

the reason for that is actually quite simple: natural defense was insanely strong in wc3, there was literally no way you should ever lose a game early on

On October 25 2011 21:00 aimaimaim wrote:
Btw .. contrary to popular belief .. in PC Bangs, WC3 is more played than BW.

On October 25 2011 20:54 aendi wrote:


so funny how much shit Nani is talking about wc3 when he was never actually good at it.
he still balancewhines every chance he can get.

so no, Naniwa is no authority about whether sc2 is actually harder than wc3.

On October 25 2011 20:54 aendi wrote:


so funny how much shit Nani is talking about wc3 when he was never actually good at it.
he still balancewhines every chance he can get.

so no, Naniwa is no authority about whether sc2 is actually harder than wc3.

On October 25 2011 21:06 DrGreen wrote:


He never did WC3 fulltime. Also do u know any undead player winning something?

U can ask same question any ex-wc3 SC2 player and he will tell u exact same thing.

On October 03 2011 13:35 Naniwa wrote:


was there any successful undead progamer ? xD also i never played wc3 fulltime ^^

On October 25 2011 21:06 DrGreen wrote:


He never did WC3 fulltime. Also do u know any undead player winning something?

U can ask same question any ex-wc3 SC2 player and he will tell u exact same thing.

On October 25 2011 20:47 RevThirteen wrote:
There's a bias because SC1 is way more competetive and requires way higher skill then W3. Even Naniwa, who did play W3 competetivly for several years said that he doesn't think W3 deserves to be a sport.

On October 25 2011 20:44 blackbrrd wrote:
In my eyes there is no hate, maybe a bit of bias, but not that much. Good micro, but bad macro is something often attributed to wc3 players.

On October 03 2011 13:35 Naniwa wrote:


was there any successful undead progamer ? xD also i never played wc3 fulltime ^^

On October 25 2011 21:24 Jeremyy wrote:


I think naniwa is bitter about his total lack of results in wc3.

On October 25 2011 21:32 fleeze wrote:
well, that's teamliquid. sc:bw biased as hell.
i would agree that the BW pro scene in KOREA is ahead and every switching progamer will make a huge impact.
but for the foreign scene the same can be said about WC3. BW was non-existent compared to WC3 in europe. WC3 had a VERY competitive scene and many huge tournaments.

nowadays it's called ESPORTS and attributed solely to SC2 / SC:BW. a pretty big mistake since the foreign scene and tournaments mostly emerged out of the WC3 scene.

there were IEMs, ESWCs, WCGs, Zotac Cups, Go4WC3s, etc. before. they just played WC3 which was unnoticed and denounced on teamliquid.
not to forget the other big esports titles: CS 1.6, Quake, UT, even FIFA.


Sweet was a very successful undead pro. Ted was good too, but never really on the top.

On October 25 2011 20:47 RevThirteen wrote:
There's a bias because SC1 is way more competetive and requires way higher skill then W3.

On October 25 2011 21:01 Nawe wrote:
Whether is old or new debate I see often flame wars and wanted to know reason. Naniwa was anywhere near top level and he is not really man spoke man of wc3. If Grubby say that I will understand. I understand BW was slightly harder but many of you does not see some things in wc3 just like we dont see in BW.

On October 25 2011 21:28 michielbrands wrote:


Imo Stephano has some of the best macro I've seen...But I get your point.... the strength of most wc3 players is their micro (except SjoW )

On October 25 2011 21:32 fleeze wrote:
well, that's teamliquid. sc:bw biased as hell.
i would agree that the BW pro scene in KOREA is ahead and every switching progamer will make a huge impact.
but for the foreign scene the same can be said about WC3. BW was non-existent compared to WC3 in europe. WC3 had a VERY competitive scene and many huge tournaments.

nowadays it's called ESPORTS and attributed solely to SC2 / SC:BW. a pretty big mistake since the foreign scene and tournaments mostly emerged out of the WC3 scene.

there were IEMs, ESWCs, WCGs, Zotac Cups, Go4WC3s, etc. before. they just played WC3 which was unnoticed and denounced on teamliquid.
not to forget the other big esports titles: CS 1.6, Quake, UT, even FIFA.

On October 25 2011 21:28 michielbrands wrote:


Imo Stephano has some of the best macro I've seen...But I get your point.... the strength of most wc3 players is their micro (except SjoW )

On October 25 2011 21:49 Talin wrote:


Stephano, Thorzain, Sjow, Lyn don't really have micro as their best quality and strength, nor is it a key element they rely on in their playstyle. I wouldn't say any other ex-WC3 player stands out due to his micro. In fact when you look at the top micro players of SC2 (MKP, MC, Huk come to mind), none of them have WC3 background either.

Point being, there really isn't much of the WC3 micro ability that carried over to SC2. Best former WC3 players are doing well in SC2 simply because of the hard work they put in learning and practicing SC2, and almost none of them rely their WC3 skillset anymore.

On October 25 2011 21:37 michielbrands wrote:


You blame TL for focussing on sc:bw? that's there soul?

Be glad they don't spend time/effort to the cs 1.6, quake etc. scene. Then this would be just another website filled with annoying kids.

On October 25 2011 20:47 RevThirteen wrote:
There's a bias because SC1 is way more competetive and requires way higher skill then W3. Even Naniwa, who did play W3 competetivly for several years said that he doesn't think W3 deserves to be a sport.

On October 25 2011 21:50 Talin wrote:


Stephano, Thorzain, Sjow, Lyn don't really have micro as their best quality and strength, nor is it a key element they rely on in their playstyle. I wouldn't say any other ex-WC3 player stands out due to his micro. In fact when you look at the top micro players of SC2 (MKP, MC, Huk come to mind), none of them have WC3 background either.

Point being, there really isn't much of the WC3 micro ability that carried over to SC2. Best former WC3 players are doing well in SC2 simply because of the hard work they put in learning and practicing SC2, and almost none of them rely on their WC3 skillset anymore.

On October 25 2011 21:37 michielbrands wrote:


You blame TL for focussing on sc:bw? that's there soul?

Be glad they don't spend time/effort to the cs 1.6, quake etc. scene. Then this would be just another website filled with annoying kids.

On October 25 2011 21:50 Mandalor wrote:


why do people always have to take things personally. Saying the competive scene of wc3 is a lot smaller and less competive than the bw scene in korea is not denouncing the game of wc3! At all.
You absolutely cannot compare foreign wc3 with bw in korea. That's not hate, bias or anything.
Educate yourself, look at how strict the training for pro-gamers is in their respective games. Look at how many people there are who consider pro-gaming their job in each game. Look at the number and the size of professional gaming teams and the huge prize pool tournaments in each game.

None of the tournaments you listed are of any importance, be it prize money or density of competition compared to proleagues. I mean you bring in zotac cups and go4sc2. Are you kidding? No pro-gamers plays these today unless they're incredibly bored. And that's sc2 pro-gamers. No bw pro would ever participate in sth like this, ever.

WC3 is a great game and players like Grubby and Moon had amazing accomplishments, but their tournament wins don't feel a lot different than players winning huge FIFA tournaments. It's just not as amazing of a feat as winning proleague(s), because the competition is a lot weaker.

On October 25 2011 22:25 jinixxx123 wrote:
Warcraft 3 = Strategy/Execution , very little macro, emphasis purely on unit control and micro.
Starcraft 2 = Strategy/Execution, Alot of macro.

Thus in my opinion, Starcraft 2 is a harder game ( yes i am a warcraft 3 player, we have to admit this)
However, there was no such thing as "cheese" in warcraft 3, that is a new term given for a word that i first heard about when i came to the Starcraft scene. Cheese is basically non-existent in warcraft 3 because heroes and natural base defense is overpowered early game . So what that means is that it was literally impossible for an inferior player to win just based of his strategy alone. In warcraft strategy's alone will never beat anyone good, So with that said, Warcraft 3 is a lil less volatile , but thats what makes the best starcraft 2 players even better than warcraft 3 players, because they have to prepare for soooooooooooo much different strategy's that the best players usually are capable of holding off everything and varying up their strategy's alot . Unless you were nightelf in warcraft 3, you literally only had 1 maybe 2 strategys per matchup.Everything was cookie cutter to the core and that's what ultimately killed warcraft 3, it got sooooooooooooooo stale and robotic, whereas broodwar you kept seeing new stuff all the time.

So in my opinion .. Whether you come from starcraft or warcraft , with enough time and talent, it doesn't matter what your background is. You either have or you don't.

But we (wc3ers) have our bonjwas who probably will never play sc2

even tho I didnt played a single be game and dont really care about their bw success.

I wouldnt count them out cuz Grubby or ToD started wc4.

On October 25 2011 22:47 Tommylew wrote:


lol how much wacrraft 3 did u play? Tower rushes form humans and even orcs.., early wc3 ancient pushes with mass ancients..... the is cheese in every game going. So I dont think we should say that cheese only came to light because of starcraft lol

On October 25 2011 23:03 empty.bottle wrote:


true, i mean orcs pretty much cheesed every game with blademaster :D

On October 25 2011 23:05 villageidiot wrote:


And warcraft had 3 bonjwas and prestigious warleague. It was a good times. No disrespect to WC and WC2

On October 25 2011 23:07 Fionn wrote:


Anywhere I can learn more about the WC3 bonjwas and this Warleague? I want to learn more about WC3.

On October 25 2011 22:59 Beyonder wrote:
Because sadly, half of the community (or more) consists of sad angry teenage nerds that only want their 'own thing' to be 'awesome' and 'succeed'. Its the same with the hate for LoL, wow, or any other game. It's pathetic and selfish. Other stuff than BW or Sc2 can be awesome, people have different opinions or experiences.

The fact that about half the people here try to make WC3 as the less skilled game is in itself absolutely pathetic. Its what the BW players say about SC2, the chess players say about checkers, and so on.

Ex-Wc3 players are amazing at SC2, and lets thank everyone that the two communities united half decently.

Other stuff than BW or Sc2 can be awesome, people have different opinions or experiences. LoL frequently has more viewers than SC2, omg!!11 Be happy that people are enjoying a game. Teen angst ftl.

On October 25 2011 23:07 floor exercise wrote:
TL posters in general rejected war3 for being what was thought of as an easier game with worse mechanics. But it's all sort of become muddied with hypocrisy now that TL openly embraces SC2 which is an easier game with worse mechanics

On October 25 2011 22:59 Beyonder wrote:
Because sadly, half of the community (or more) consists of sad angry teenage nerds that only want their 'own thing' to be 'awesome' and 'succeed'. Its the same with the hate for LoL, wow, or any other game. It's pathetic and selfish. Other stuff than BW or Sc2 can be awesome, people have different opinions or experiences.

The fact that about half the people here try to make WC3 as the less skilled game is in itself absolutely pathetic. Its what the BW players say about SC2, the chess players say about checkers, and so on.

Ex-Wc3 players are amazing at SC2, and lets thank everyone that the two communities united half decently.

Other stuff than BW or Sc2 can be awesome, people have different opinions or experiences. LoL frequently has more viewers than SC2, omg!!11 Be happy that people are enjoying a game. Teen angst ftl.

On October 25 2011 22:59 Beyonder wrote:
Because sadly, half of the community (or more) consists of sad angry teenage nerds that only want their 'own thing' to be 'awesome' and 'succeed'. Its the same with the hate for LoL, wow, or any other game. It's pathetic and selfish. Other stuff than BW or Sc2 can be awesome, people have different opinions or experiences.

The fact that about half the people here try to make WC3 as the less skilled game is in itself absolutely pathetic. Its what the BW players say about SC2, the chess players say about checkers, and so on.

Ex-Wc3 players are amazing at SC2, and lets thank everyone that the two communities united half decently.

Other stuff than BW or Sc2 can be awesome, people have different opinions or experiences. LoL frequently has more viewers than SC2, omg!!11 Be happy that people are enjoying a game. Teen angst ftl.

On October 25 2011 23:11 RotterdaM wrote:
Actually wonder where Johan/Nani said that cause tbh when I spoke with him in the past he always spoke very highly of wc3 oO, he loved the game and had a lot of passion for it from time to time I could know since we were teammates for quite a while, he did pick a rather unfortunate race but then again, it was mostly about the maps. There's actually a lot of nonsense in this thread ;D wonder how many of you actually played Wc3 ;p. Saying Wc3 was easy is bullshit , if anything everybody who ever played and followed the pro scene closely knew that upsets did not happen _very_ often, just because there was an insane amount of skill and every single season you'd see the same guys (grubby/tod/creo/deadman) with the best win records in Wc3l since it was just _VERY_ hard for an inferior player to beat a guy thats actually better than you ( While as we all know, this happens quite often in SC2 , ask Greg! ), Orc Vs UD was prolly the match-up where this happened the most, but even then, if the UD was really better he'd win most of the time. Just the simple fact that it was the same guys winning over and over again ( yet wc3 was INCREDIBLE competitive + a ton of guys REALLY tryed to be _that_ good ) shows there was a ton of skill in this game, I mean HuK and Stephano are really tearing it up lately, but its still absolutely nothing compared to what Grubby did in late 2004 till Summer 2005, it didn't matter which tournament he attended, everybody knew he was going to win, won like 4/5/6 massive tournaments on a row ;D if that ain't skill, I wonder what is ,

aa anyway to much text, to much passion when I'm writing bout Wc3 ;D, missing dem good old days <3 ;D hf with the discussion

On October 25 2011 23:19 TheToast wrote:


....wut

Before I respond I want you to know that I am a huge WC3 fan. I must have spent 50% of my free time between 2004-2006 playing WC3 and TFT. In college I failed Finance 300 because I spent all my time playing TFT instead of studying. heh heh

So believe me when I say SC2 did not kill WC3. BW also did not kill WC3. TFT lasted for 7 friggin years. I sort of get the feeling that you are pasting the BW versus SC2 viewpoint to the WC3 situation and it's really not the same. There were never huge international leagues like the OSL or GSL to keep WC3 alive, it never had enigmatic players like idrA, the fan base never reached the size of BW and SC2--its fate was inevitable.

WC3 ran its course and people moved on to something new. Frankly that's one of the aspects of Esports I really love; anything is possible, any type of competition, in any form. While I was sad to see WC3 die away I was stoked because I would get to see players like my Orc hero Grubby play on in SC2.

There is no WC3 versus SC2 malice or competition, there never was, and likely there never will be.

On October 25 2011 23:19 TheToast wrote:


....wut

Before I respond I want you to know that I am a huge WC3 fan. I must have spent 50% of my free time between 2004-2006 playing WC3 and TFT. In college I failed Finance 300 because I spent all my time playing TFT instead of studying. heh heh

So believe me when I say SC2 did not kill WC3. BW also did not kill WC3. TFT lasted for 7 friggin years. I sort of get the feeling that you are pasting the BW versus SC2 viewpoint to the WC3 situation and it's really not the same. There were never huge international leagues like the OSL or GSL to keep WC3 alive, it never had enigmatic players like idrA, the fan base never reached the size of BW and SC2--its fate was inevitable.

WC3 ran its course and people moved on to something new. Frankly that's one of the aspects of Esports I really love; anything is possible, any type of competition, in any form. While I was sad to see WC3 die away I was stoked because I would get to see players like my Orc hero Grubby play on in SC2.

There is no WC3 versus SC2 malice or competition, there never was, and likely there never will be.

On October 25 2011 23:19 TheToast wrote:


....wut

Before I respond I want you to know that I am a huge WC3 fan. I must have spent 50% of my free time between 2004-2006 playing WC3 and TFT. In college I failed Finance 300 because I spent all my time that semester playing TFT instead of studying. heh heh

So believe me when I say SC2 did not kill WC3. BW also did not kill WC3. TFT lasted for 7 friggin years. I sort of get the feeling that you are pasting the BW versus SC2 viewpoint to the WC3 situation and it's really not the same. There were never huge international leagues like the OSL or GSL to keep WC3 alive, it never had enigmatic players like idrA, the fan base never reached the size of BW and SC2, and there was never such a robust map making community--its fate was inevitable.

WC3 ran its course and people moved on to something new. Frankly that's one of the aspects of Esports I really love; anything is possible, any type of competition, in any form. While I was sad to see WC3 die away I was stoked because I would get to see players like my Orc hero Grubby play on in SC2.

There is no WC3 versus SC2 malice or competition, there never was, and likely there never will be.

On October 25 2011 23:24 Desirous wrote:
Aside from wc3 taking a lot less skill, my only hate towards the game is not of its players who switched over to competitive sc2, but to its community that switched over with them. The reason is that you are all becoming fanboys of people that, in brood war, were known hackers or abusers like dimaga, haypro, and huk. I'm pretty sure dimaga is even banned from all future TSLs because of his abuse. Imagine if in wc4 we started cheering for your unscrupulous players.

On October 25 2011 23:19 TheToast wrote:


....wut

Before I respond I want you to know that I am a huge WC3 fan. I must have spent 50% of my free time between 2004-2006 playing WC3 and TFT. In college I failed Finance 300 because I spent all my time playing TFT instead of studying. heh heh

So believe me when I say SC2 did not kill WC3. BW also did not kill WC3. TFT lasted for 7 friggin years. I sort of get the feeling that you are pasting the BW versus SC2 viewpoint to the WC3 situation and it's really not the same. There were never huge international leagues like the OSL or GSL to keep WC3 alive, it never had enigmatic players like idrA, the fan base never reached the size of BW and SC2--its fate was inevitable.

WC3 ran its course and people moved on to something new. Frankly that's one of the aspects of Esports I really love; anything is possible, any type of competition, in any form. While I was sad to see WC3 die away I was stoked because I would get to see players like my Orc hero Grubby play on in SC2.

There is no WC3 versus SC2 malice or competition, there never was, and likely there never will be.

On October 25 2011 23:24 Desirous wrote:
Aside from wc3 taking a lot less skill, my only hate towards the game is not of its players who switched over to competitive sc2, but to its community that switched over with them. The reason is that you are all becoming fanboys of people that, in brood war, were known hackers or abusers like dimaga, haypro, and huk. I'm pretty sure dimaga is even banned from all future TSLs because of his abuse. Imagine if in wc4 we started cheering for your unscrupulous players.


@Beyonder

We're not arguing that our "thing" is more awesome, we're saying it takes more skill. This is undoubtedly true for anyone who has a modicum of intelligence.

Oh, and for the record, Chess does take more intelligence than checkers.

On October 25 2011 22:25 fleeze wrote:


sorry sounded a bit ranty
i don't blame tl for the focus but for ignoring everything the WC3 scene achieved in foreign ESPORTS. without WC3, SC2 would be nowhere as big as it is now. and for using SC and ESPORTS as synonyms which they aren't. esports would exist, even without sc2.



i didn't compare foreign WC3 with BW in korea... but before SC2, WC3 and CS where the pillars of esports outside of korea. would you argue with that statement?


WHAT? are you kidding... i mentioned IEM, ESWC and WCG! the only BIG tourneys missing are TSL (obviously :D), IPL (new) and MLG (halo / console lol). i could add Dreamhack, Assembly, ASUS ROG, etc... nearly all big tourney had WC3 before SC2...
btw, i mentioned the weekly tourneys because they are popular and important for the community. and have their roots in the beginning of WC3 (Go4Wc3, the mother of weeklys.).


you didn't follow the scene then. there was a lot of competition (though lower as in BW/korea). and Creolophus winning the WCG against sky or Grubby beating Moon are some of the greatest games in ESPORTS.

On October 25 2011 23:32 Mandalor wrote:


As I said, this is in comparison to bw. No - IEM, ESWC and the WCG are not as competitive as OSL or MSL. They never were. And I would argue that they are not as competitive as the GSL. And to continue, the GSL is not as competitive as the bw proleagues (yet).
I'm not saying bw is a better game than sc2 or wc3 and I'm not trying to talk down on the accomplishments and the talent of pro-gamers in any of these games. All I'm saying is that we're not at a point in sc2 yet where progaming is as professional and as competitive as it is in bw. And for some reason, wc3 never made it that far.

I was an avid wc3 player up until TFT hit and then I just continued to watch top games instead of playing myself. I really like the game and see it as equally suited to esports as bw, but it's easy to see that the professional scene never got big in wc3. Just look at the world cyber games as an example you talked about yourself. How many progamers were there at wcg? I'd probably say about 10 or 12? Progamers as in players who put in a very significant amount of practice hours with the best of the best. I really don't think it's more than that, probably less.

In your average OSL, all of the 40 players who qualify are progamers. They had to win a ridiculously hard courage tournament (that no foreigner ever won) at one point to get progaming status, get on a team and then qualify for the league against other progamers. Let's get back to the point where I said "Progamers as in players who put in a very significant amount of practice hours with the best of the best" - all of these players fit this criteria and there's probably hundreds of amateurs that do as well.

All of my posts here are adressing the OP where he was wondering why all the former bw players believe that if the top koreans from bw switched over to sc2, they would probably start to dominate at one point. The reason is that people like Flash already made it to the very top through competition that is a loooot harder than it is in sc2 right now.

On October 25 2011 23:24 Beyonder wrote:


For half of your points I have no idea what you're responding to or who, but it cannot be my post. For the part that I do get, there was TONS of 'hate' for WC3 and its players (low skilled game, no macro, easy, etc), especially in the BW days, and there still is. And I've been heavilly involved in all three communities (BW/SC2/WC3).

On October 25 2011 23:27 Tommylew wrote:

SC paved the way for WC3 and that paved the way for sc2 same as sc2 will pave the way for wc4 and then possibiily sc3. Each game has helped the other go that little bit further. Without wc3 would we of had this many foriegn tournaments whcih have been built up from wc3?

he (Naniwa) doesn't think W3 deserves to be a sport.

On October 25 2011 23:32 Mandalor wrote:


As I said, this is in comparison to bw. No - IEM, ESWC and the WCG are not as competitive as OSL or MSL. They never were. And I would argue that they are not as competitive as the GSL. And to continue, the GSL is not as competitive as the bw proleagues (yet).
I'm not saying bw is a better game than sc2 or wc3 and I'm not trying to talk down on the accomplishments and the talent of pro-gamers in any of these games. All I'm saying is that we're not at a point in sc2 yet where progaming is as professional and as competitive as it is in bw. And for some reason, wc3 never made it that far.

I was an avid wc3 player up until TFT hit and then I just continued to watch top games instead of playing myself. I really like the game and see it as equally suited to esports as bw, but it's easy to see that the professional scene never got big in wc3. Just look at the world cyber games as an example you talked about yourself. How many progamers were there at wcg? I'd probably say about 10 or 12? Progamers as in players who put in a very significant amount of practice hours with the best of the best. I really don't think it's more than that, probably less.

In your average OSL, all of the 40 players who qualify are progamers. They had to win a ridiculously hard courage tournament (that no foreigner ever won) at one point to get progaming status, get on a team and then qualify for the league against other progamers. Let's get back to the point where I said "Progamers as in players who put in a very significant amount of practice hours with the best of the best" - all of these players fit this criteria and there's probably hundreds of amateurs that do as well.

All of my posts here are adressing the OP where he was wondering why all the former bw players believe that if the top koreans from bw switched over to sc2, they would probably start to dominate at one point. The reason is that people like Flash already made it to the very top through competition that is a loooot harder than it is in sc2 right now.

On October 25 2011 23:30 ToguRo wrote:
there is no coincidence that MVP the best BW player that switched is the best SC2 player in the world

On October 25 2011 23:30 fleeze wrote:


umm... SC2 killed professional WC3 outside of china. this statement is absolutely true.
there were huge international leagues for wc3... even an international team league with more prestige than any SC2 teamleague and the best players in it: the WC3L.
also tourneys like IEM, CPL, ESWC, StarsWar and others in China i don't remember the names of. this got killed by SC2 since every tourney switched over.

i wouldn't say this was bad since WC3 was clearly lacking the support of Blizzard (where is the fucking BLADEMASTER nerf!!!) and was slowly dying anyway.

TL should just admit that WC3 laid the path for the success of SC2!
Without WC3 there wouldn't be an INTERNATIONAL competitive scene in SC2. instead it just gets bashed as a "noob game" that requires no skill. that's sad...


edit: ye just ignorant people like this...

On October 25 2011 23:22 TheDefiler_Saves wrote:

Naniwa:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=SPIa_s0nPjc#t=1200s

On October 25 2011 23:39 OminouS wrote:
Where is this hate you are talking about?

Players from Korea are mostly BWplayers, and Korea is RTS/esport. Not much to argue about there. Even the 5th race from WC3 was korean.

On October 25 2011 23:44 Desirous wrote:




LOL WC3 didn't lay the path for the success of SC2, Brood War laid the path for the success of ALL RTS games, period. You named 4 tournaments, only 3 of which actually host sc2 competitions. One of which used to host BW tourneys as well, and the 2 remaining tournaments are so far away from being considered "premier" tournaments that you're just insulting yourself. Starswar and ESWC are the "path" that helped sc2 have an international scene? Please, if you've figured out how to move between dimensions, share it with us. That would be much more interesting than your completely ignorant opinion.



And for the people with absolutely no common sense, wc3 takes less skill, this is not an opinion, this is fact. This does NOT mean that the players have less skill, and that they can't compete in other games on the same level, it just means WARCRAFT 3 takes less skill. Less micro, less macro, just less in general. Less complicated = less skill required.

On October 25 2011 20:48 DrGreen wrote:
Maybe because "WC3 requires half or less skill which is required to play SC2" - Naniwa.

On October 25 2011 23:41 BilltownRunner wrote:


there is no coincidence that Stephano, a pretty good WC3 player that switched is the best sc2 player outside of korea.

edit:

How the hell do people say the game is random? Honestly if a top master level player were to play grubby he would probably not lose one unit. In SC2 there are so many more upsets which tbh is kinda shitty for the people that are actually good at this game.

WC3 upsets happened so less often which made the top players more exciting to watch.

On October 25 2011 20:53 sleepingdog wrote:


you are right on the macro-style, but the average wc3 game lasted longer than the average sc2 game....since many sc2 games are decided by 1-2 major battles after teching up / massing units

the reason for that is actually quite simple: natural defense was insanely strong in wc3, there was literally no way you should ever lose a game early on

On October 25 2011 23:46 Thug[ro] wrote:


haha so true :D

On October 25 2011 23:46 Squeegy wrote:


Probably because the damage done was say 10-20 and not 15. Probably because the items dropped were selected by chance. But you're right, let's ignore all stuff like that.

On October 25 2011 23:59 Desirous wrote:
@ Fleeze

Ya, I'm a troll. Yet can you pinpoint one thing in wc3 that if played at its skill ceiling would require both accurate movements, and 15,000 APM? The highest skill ceiling is what determines which game requires the most skill, not what the current level is at, not how many tournaments are being hosted for a game, and definitely not which game paved the way for the other.

FYI: Eliminating "early game pressure" by having "strong natural defense" in wc3, essentially eliminated one skill in particular - being able to read your opponent. And indirectly skewed some other skills, like being able to react accordingly. You can't walk into a BW or SC2 game thinking "I'm going to use this strategy no matter what", doing that gets your 14 cc 6 pooled. And getting away with a 14cc means you read your opponent well.

On October 25 2011 23:59 Desirous wrote:
@ Fleeze

Ya, I'm a troll. Yet can you pinpoint one thing in wc3 that if played at its skill ceiling would require both accurate movements, and 15,000 APM? The highest skill ceiling is what determines which game requires the most skill, not what the current level is at, not how many tournaments are being hosted for a game, and definitely not which game paved the way for the other.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=210057

Because apparently there are tons of scenarios like that in sc2 and sc:bw.


FYI: Eliminating "early game pressure" by having "strong natural defense" in wc3, essentially eliminated one skill in particular - being able to read your opponent. And indirectly skewed some other skills, like being able to react accordingly. You can't walk into a BW or SC2 game thinking "I'm going to use this strategy no matter what", doing that gets your 14 cc 6 pooled. And getting away with a 14cc means you read your opponent well.

On October 26 2011 00:13 Msr wrote:
when wc4 comes out no top wc3 player will drop a map to a sc player for atleast a year, the second sc2 came out anybody could beat players who played broodwar for 10 years. I think it is obvious which game takes more skill but of course brood war players will never admit it. Only thing that matters now though is sc2 so that shouldn't matter too much now.

On October 26 2011 00:15 PHILtheTANK wrote:
While I loved the game, have you ever watched competitive WC3? By the end it turned into the same thing every game. Everyone is playing orc, you get your far seer and a couple grunts and battle for 55 minutes just microing grunts back and forth while applying salves to them. Its basically a macro-less game, there is only micro. Not to mention all micro just resolves around surrounding, and taking 5 mins to kill something. I played WC3 way too much, but the competitive scene was at best mediocre.

On October 26 2011 00:15 PHILtheTANK wrote:
While I loved the game, have you ever watched competitive WC3? By the end it turned into the same thing every game. Everyone is playing orc, you get your far seer and a couple grunts and battle for 55 minutes just microing grunts back and forth while applying salves to them. Its basically a macro-less game, there is only micro. Not to mention all micro just resolves around surrounding, and taking 5 mins to kill something. I played WC3 way too much, but the competitive scene was at best mediocre.

On October 25 2011 23:37 TheToast wrote:


Exactly what was your point then? What I got out of your post is that vaguely defined 'sad teenagers' want only their own thing to be cool and hate everything else. My point (while admittely a bit rambly, sorry) was that WC3 ran its course and now the players are moving to SC2 successfully, despite whatever 'sad teenagers' think.

While I'm not entirely familiar with what SC fans though of WC3 during BW days (I was busy playing TFT) I don't see any "hate" holding back former WC3 players in the SC2 scene right now. In fact crazy fans of Grubby like myself are probably helping them more than anything.



Yes, this.

On October 25 2011 23:11 RotterdaM wrote:
Actually wonder where Johan/Nani said that cause tbh when I spoke with him in the past he always spoke very highly of wc3 oO, he loved the game and had a lot of passion for it from time to time I could know since we were teammates for quite a while, he did pick a rather unfortunate race but then again, it was mostly about the maps. There's actually a lot of nonsense in this thread ;D wonder how many of you actually played Wc3 ;p. Saying Wc3 was easy is bullshit , if anything everybody who ever played and followed the pro scene closely knew that upsets did not happen _very_ often, just because there was an insane amount of skill and every single season you'd see the same guys (grubby/tod/creo/deadman) with the best win records in Wc3l since it was just _VERY_ hard for an inferior player to beat a guy thats actually better than you ( While as we all know, this happens quite often in SC2 , ask Greg! ), Orc Vs UD was prolly the match-up where this happened the most, but even then, if the UD was really better he'd win most of the time. Just the simple fact that it was the same guys winning over and over again ( yet wc3 was INCREDIBLE competitive + a ton of guys REALLY tryed to be _that_ good ) shows there was a ton of skill in this game, I mean HuK and Stephano are really tearing it up lately, but its still absolutely nothing compared to what Grubby did in late 2004 till Summer 2005, it didn't matter which tournament he attended, everybody knew he was going to win, won like 4/5/6 massive tournaments on a row ;D if that ain't skill, I wonder what is ,

aa anyway to much text, to much passion when I'm writing bout Wc3 ;D, missing dem good old days <3 ;D hf with the discussion

On October 26 2011 00:22 robih wrote:
well BW needed more apm because the mechanics are old and tbh totally suck
yet i dont see how BW needed more "skill" asides from mastering the shitty interface

and desirous never played wc3 on a level anywhere near "decent" or is just plain stupid

On October 25 2011 21:50 Mandalor wrote:


why do people always have to take things personally. Saying the competive scene of wc3 is a lot smaller and less competive than the bw scene in korea is not denouncing the game of wc3! At all.
You absolutely cannot compare foreign wc3 with bw in korea. That's not hate, bias or anything.
Educate yourself, look at how strict the training for pro-gamers is in their respective games. Look at how many people there are who consider pro-gaming their job in each game. Look at the number and the size of professional gaming teams and the huge prize pool tournaments in each game.

None of the tournaments you listed are of any importance, be it prize money or density of competition compared to proleagues. I mean you bring in zotac cups and go4sc2. Are you kidding? No pro-gamers plays these today unless they're incredibly bored. And that's sc2 pro-gamers. No bw pro would ever participate in sth like this, ever.

WC3 is a great game and players like Grubby and Moon had amazing accomplishments, but their tournament wins don't feel a lot different than players winning huge FIFA tournaments. It's just not as amazing of a feat as winning proleague(s), because the competition is a lot weaker.

On January 31 2011 05:36 Liquid`Tyler wrote:

Haha yeah, what an enormous insult to SC:BW progamers. If it was any more of a direct insult, it'd certainly earn a ban.

On January 03 2011 07:18 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
What do people want to hear from Grubby? He's a newbie at SC2 atm and we're not going to talk about WC3. What's the point?

As if he's going to have something interesting to say about picking up SC2? We can all see that it's a better game to compete in than WC3 at this point. What special insight could he have?

I don't have anything against him coming on the show eventually but our guests gotta provide something both meaningful and relevant. At this point, anything meaningful he could add to the show isn't relevant.

On October 25 2011 20:47 RevThirteen wrote:
There's a bias because SC1 is way more competetive and requires way higher skill then W3. Even Naniwa, who did play W3 competetivly for several years said that he doesn't think W3 deserves to be a sport.

On October 25 2011 23:32 Mandalor wrote:


As I said, this is in comparison to bw. No - IEM, ESWC and the WCG are not as competitive as OSL or MSL. They never were. And I would argue that they are not as competitive as the GSL. And to continue, the GSL is not as competitive as the bw proleagues (yet).
I'm not saying bw is a better game than sc2 or wc3 and I'm not trying to talk down on the accomplishments and the talent of pro-gamers in any of these games. All I'm saying is that we're not at a point in sc2 yet where progaming is as professional and as competitive as it is in bw. And for some reason, wc3 never made it that far.

I was an avid wc3 player up until TFT hit and then I just continued to watch top games instead of playing myself. I really like the game and see it as equally suited to esports as bw, but it's easy to see that the professional scene never got big in wc3. Just look at the world cyber games as an example you talked about yourself. How many progamers were there at wcg? I'd probably say about 10 or 12? Progamers as in players who put in a very significant amount of practice hours with the best of the best. I really don't think it's more than that, probably less.

In your average OSL, all of the 40 players who qualify are progamers. They had to win a ridiculously hard courage tournament (that no foreigner ever won) at one point to get progaming status, get on a team and then qualify for the league against other progamers. Let's get back to the point where I said "Progamers as in players who put in a very significant amount of practice hours with the best of the best" - all of these players fit this criteria and there's probably hundreds of amateurs that do as well.

All of my posts here are adressing the OP where he was wondering why all the former bw players believe that if the top koreans from bw switched over to sc2, they would probably start to dominate at one point. The reason is that people like Flash already made it to the very top through competition that is a loooot harder than it is in sc2 right now.

On October 25 2011 23:30 ToguRo wrote:
there is no coincidence that MVP the best BW player that switched is the best SC2 player in the world

On October 26 2011 01:26 Nawe wrote:


What about Boxer,July,Nada?

On October 25 2011 20:56 marttorn wrote:
As many others have noted, there's not much outright "hate" against WC3, but I can imagine former BW players feeling like WC3 was a less skillful game, and thus dismissing some of it's players as less experienced in the RTS genre.

TeamLiquid was a Brood War centric site from the very beginning, so naturally there are more BW players, thus you may see some condescension towards WC3 as a whole. This is, of course, taken somewhat offensively by many of the WC3 guys that came with SC2. Not much more to it ^^;

On October 26 2011 01:33 Kahlgar wrote:
people underestimating how huge wc3 was in China itt

that being said, there is no discernable skill gap between ex wc3 and ex bw players in sc2 so wether bw was the most challenging game or not (and it prolly was) becomes irrelevent

On October 26 2011 01:32 Arceus wrote:

It's you who talks crap lol. You cant argue against the fact that half of the top foreigners are ex-wc3 pros. Polt even won a GSL. Is it any significant ?
And ESWC and WCG were the premier wc3 tournament since 2003 (ofc WCG 2000/01/02 didnt have wc3 cuz the game wasnt released yet lol)


bullshit. the sickest wc3 leagues asides of WC3L/NGL were the MBC PrimeLeagues in 2003-2005, WEG series in 2005, some GameX tourney in Russia with $100K for 1st place (highest winning for an RTS game). Each WCG is full of drama and stories, and ESWC was just that good. I dont care about those 2010/2011 Chinese leagues since 98% of the coolest characters in the scene had retired

On October 26 2011 01:36 Condor Hero wrote:

Yeah MVP, MC, Nestea and most of the other Koreans played WC3, oh wait....

On October 26 2011 01:25 crms wrote:


I love NaNiwa but he is also pretty sensational at times. Considering he was never very significant in War3 and is a top player in SC2 should speak to some difficulty. Maybe he's just bitter he never made it in war3.


<3 war3
<3 bw
<3 sc2

On October 26 2011 01:44 Kahlgar wrote:


might have something to do with bw being a lot bigger than war3 in Korea ya know

for similar reasons the european scene is dominated by wc3 players and i have no doubt that if/when the chinese get really good at sc2, their scene will be mostly dominated by ex war3 players aswell

On October 25 2011 20:44 blackbrrd wrote:
In my eyes there is no hate, maybe a bit of bias, but not that much. Good micro, but bad macro is something often attributed to wc3 players.

On October 26 2011 01:26 Nawe wrote:


What about Boxer,July,Nada?

On October 25 2011 23:11 RotterdaM wrote:
Actually wonder where Johan/Nani said that cause tbh when I spoke with him in the past he always spoke very highly of wc3 oO, he loved the game and had a lot of passion for it from time to time I could know since we were teammates for quite a while, he did pick a rather unfortunate race but then again, it was mostly about the maps. There's actually a lot of nonsense in this thread ;D wonder how many of you actually played Wc3 ;p. Saying Wc3 was easy is bullshit , if anything everybody who ever played and followed the pro scene closely knew that upsets did not happen _very_ often, just because there was an insane amount of skill and every single season you'd see the same guys (grubby/tod/creo/deadman) with the best win records in Wc3l since it was just _VERY_ hard for an inferior player to beat a guy thats actually better than you ( While as we all know, this happens quite often in SC2 , ask Greg! ), Orc Vs UD was prolly the match-up where this happened the most, but even then, if the UD was really better he'd win most of the time. Just the simple fact that it was the same guys winning over and over again ( yet wc3 was INCREDIBLE competitive + a ton of guys REALLY tryed to be _that_ good ) shows there was a ton of skill in this game, I mean HuK and Stephano are really tearing it up lately, but its still absolutely nothing compared to what Grubby did in late 2004 till Summer 2005, it didn't matter which tournament he attended, everybody knew he was going to win, won like 4/5/6 massive tournaments on a row ;D if that ain't skill, I wonder what is ,

aa anyway to much text, to much passion when I'm writing bout Wc3 ;D, missing dem good old days <3 ;D hf with the discussion

On October 26 2011 02:03 R0YAL wrote:

Dominated is a strong word. There are a lot of very strong players from both games in Europe. Neither ex-bw nor ex-wc3 players dominate the European scene.

On October 26 2011 02:33 dgwow wrote:
WC3 was a game where the players who had better decision making and micro would win, not macro. So pro WC3 players who switched to SC2 and could macro properly are actually doing really well.

I hope a former WC3 pro wins the GSL to shut up all the people with biases

On October 26 2011 02:39 Nasradime wrote:


Good news, it already happened (Polt). Bad news, it didn't change anything...

On October 26 2011 02:28 EcstatiC wrote:
you forgot elfi as a player from WC3. also KiWiKaKi


and Maka was an amateur level WC3 player (A1.Townhall)

On October 26 2011 02:46 Nawe wrote:


Well you cant make a list and not to forget someone I forgot about Phoenix_Gerrard etc

Btw what was Polts ID in wc3? Cant remember him

On October 26 2011 02:28 fleeze wrote:

that's just plain wrong. looking at the numbers ex-WC3 players dominate the scene clearly, at least in europe.
it's easily over 50% ex-WC3 pros currently at the top in europe. i'd call that domination.

On October 26 2011 02:55 Elem wrote:
Only players who don't deserve hype is players who got carried by the Blademaster.

On October 26 2011 02:53 acie wrote:
dont think phoenix_gerrard ever played sc2, there is a coach named gerrard but that is a different person

On October 25 2011 23:11 RotterdaM wrote:
Actually wonder where Johan/Nani said that cause tbh when I spoke with him in the past he always spoke very highly of wc3 oO, he loved the game and had a lot of passion for it from time to time I could know since we were teammates for quite a while, he did pick a rather unfortunate race but then again, it was mostly about the maps. There's actually a lot of nonsense in this thread ;D wonder how many of you actually played Wc3 ;p. Saying Wc3 was easy is bullshit , if anything everybody who ever played and followed the pro scene closely knew that upsets did not happen _very_ often, just because there was an insane amount of skill and every single season you'd see the same guys (grubby/tod/creo/deadman) with the best win records in Wc3l since it was just _VERY_ hard for an inferior player to beat a guy thats actually better than you ( While as we all know, this happens quite often in SC2 , ask Greg! ), Orc Vs UD was prolly the match-up where this happened the most, but even then, if the UD was really better he'd win most of the time. Just the simple fact that it was the same guys winning over and over again ( yet wc3 was INCREDIBLE competitive + a ton of guys REALLY tryed to be _that_ good ) shows there was a ton of skill in this game, I mean HuK and Stephano are really tearing it up lately, but its still absolutely nothing compared to what Grubby did in late 2004 till Summer 2005, it didn't matter which tournament he attended, everybody knew he was going to win, won like 4/5/6 massive tournaments on a row ;D if that ain't skill, I wonder what is ,

aa anyway to much text, to much passion when I'm writing bout Wc3 ;D, missing dem good old days <3 ;D hf with the discussion

On October 25 2011 22:59 Beyonder wrote:
Because sadly, half of the community (or more) consists of sad angry teenage nerds that only want their 'own thing' to be 'awesome' and 'succeed'. Its the same with the hate for LoL, wow, or any other game. It's pathetic and selfish. Other stuff than BW or Sc2 can be awesome, people have different opinions or experiences.

The fact that about half the people here try to make WC3 as the less skilled game is in itself absolutely pathetic. Its what the BW players say about SC2, the chess players say about checkers, and so on.

Ex-Wc3 players are amazing at SC2, and lets thank everyone that the two communities united half decently.

Other stuff than BW or Sc2 can be awesome, people have different opinions or experiences. LoL frequently has more viewers than SC2, omg!!11 Be happy that people are enjoying a game. Teen angst ftl.

On October 26 2011 03:09 WickedSkies wrote:

I was going to be silent about this, but then when I saw Kevin reply, I will also voice my opinion.

First of all, some background to my view:
I have spent 7 years of my life playing Wc3 more or less competitively (regional tournaments, national tournaments, international tournaments, ladder, etc. ) so I have some insight in the warcraft scene, while not as much as Rotterdam. Warcraft proscene was HUGE, GIGANTIC, compared to ANY other proscene in Europe. So, to the uneducated sc fanboys, yes, warcraft had BIG tournaments, big events, big players, big scene, big community. Hell, in Europe there was no bigger Esport (other than CS, maybe). There were community sites, forums, replay sites, apm meters, and tons of other content available. There were big tournaments, biggest one being WCG, Zotac, Go4Wc3, KOTH, StarWars etc etc.

Some will say 'Wait, how about the fact that the amount of skill sc requires is more than wc3?' That is an utterly and FUNDAMENTALLY wrong. How do I know? Well, apart from being semi-professional wc3 player, I also had keen interest in other esports. I had played bw, but not nearly as competitively or in depth as Wc3. 6 years ago I moved to the Netherlands and one night I decided to check on youtube if there are any tournaments in sc:bw which are as big as the ones I see in wc3 (God bless my ignorance). This resulted in one sleepless night in which I watched half a season of Shinhan Proleague. I was telling myself: 'Well, that is easy, even their progamers lose units to missclicks' (God bless my ignorance).

Next night, however, I watched some more BroodWar and all I saw again was units running around everywhere and dying in pixelized explosions. To me, in this unordered chaos there could be no skill, no idea, no nothing compared to the careful and meticulous movement of units in wc3, the INSANE apm it takes to control 5 units where each unit has 1+ skill and 3 heroes where the heroes have 3+ skills. I was more in-depth with the warcraft notion of expertise than I was with the notion of expertise in Broodwar. To me, broodwar was simply about pumping units and sending them on a-move while pumping new units. I was quite bored with broodwar but in spite of that I decided to take another shot (night watching Proleague) at it. Now that I had spent two nights watching stuff run chaotically around and explode, I began to recognize some interesting things, like the fact that a terran (Flash, bless my Ignorance at the time) was actually moving a pack of units (vultures) at TWO places at what seemed to be THE SAME TIME.

That was the breaking moment for me. I said to myself, wait, wait, BroodWar might actually require some skill other than pumping units and sending them on attack-move. I dug deeper into forums and watched more Proleague and began to recognize the fact that the small and seemingly insignificant details of the players' games were actually very intentional and did require a lot of skill to execute. From then on I continued to actively follow the proscene in BroodWar and BE AMAZED at the new things I discovered about the game and its AWESOME players.

However, I also actively followed the Warcraft scene not only as a spectator but as an actual player. Don't listen to Naniwa's claims, I did not even know if Naniwa said that wc3 requires less skill, but if he did, I understand why I have never heard of him until he started playing sc2. Warcraft DOES require a lot of skills but those skills are totally different to the ones required in broodwar. Warcraft is about a constant fight, and by fight, I mean actual units hitting each other from beginning to the very end. To a starcraft player a warcraft game might look like a small group of units hitting each other and nothing dying, but a warcraft player will recognize the skill inside it, like where even unit animations matter and you can avoid projectiles and spells by manually triggering skills, where you can prevent enemy units escaping while surrounding them, where last hitting a unit is the only difference between win and loss.

What I am getting at with this rant is that in the beginning to me broodwar was a game that required ABSOLUTELY no skill rather than not forgetting to pump units out of your production facilities. When I got more into the game, and I got deep, I began to recognize the notion of skill and that it requires a lot of practice and talent to be the best. Warcraft is the same in that regard. To most of TLr's it just looks like a game where no skill is required but it is not fair. Most of the TLrs never actually look any time to research what the game was all about or take a look at the proscene and the huge tournaments that were taking place. So, in response to the massive bias and maybe outright passive hate towards wc3 players I see in this very forum in this very thread (I'm not going to point fingers unless necessary) I can respond only like this:

Unless you have actively followed the wc3 proscene, you don't have the right to voice your opinion. Take your time and research a bit more about a game instead of showing how ignorant the average fanboy can be.


Sc2 is also awesome and does require a lot of skill btw.

On October 25 2011 20:48 DrGreen wrote:
Maybe because "WC3 requires half or less skill which is required to play SC2" - Naniwa.

On October 25 2011 23:36 shell wrote:


Nice argument.. what about nestea that was a scrub player in BW left the game years ago and is now the 2nd best sc2 player in the world?

so your argument proves what? that mvp is the best because he practices more and better then the others probably.. Team with better players produces even better players right?

On October 26 2011 03:09 WickedSkies wrote:
I was going to be silent about this, but then when I saw Kevin reply, I will also voice my opinion.

First of all, some background to my view:
I have spent 7 years of my life playing Wc3 more or less competitively (regional tournaments, national tournaments, international tournaments, ladder, etc. ) so I have some insight in the warcraft scene, while not as much as Rotterdam. Warcraft proscene
was HUGE, GIGANTIC, compared to ANY other proscene in Europe.

So, to the uneducated sc fanboys, yes, warcraft had BIG tournaments, big events, big players, big scene, big community.
Hell, in Europe there was no bigger Esport (other than CS, maybe). There were community sites, forums, replay sites, apm meters, and tons of other content available. There were big tournaments, biggest one being WCG, Zotac, Go4Wc3, KOTH, StarWars etc etc.

Some will say
'Wait, how about the fact that the amount of skill sc requires is more than wc3?'
That is an utterly and FUNDAMENTALLY wrong. How do I know? Well, apart from being semi-professional wc3 player, I also had keen interest in other esports. I had played bw, but not nearly as competitively or in depth as Wc3. 6 years ago I moved to the Netherlands and one night I decided to check on youtube if there are any tournaments in sc:bw which are as big as the ones I see in wc3 (God bless my ignorance). This resulted in one sleepless night in which I watched half a season of Shinhan Proleague. I was telling myself: 'Well, that is easy, even their progamers lose units to missclicks' (God bless my ignorance)

Next night, however, I watched some more BroodWar and all I saw again was units running around everywhere and dying in pixelized explosions. To me, in this unordered chaos there could be no skill, no idea, no nothing compared to the careful and meticulous movement of units in wc3, the INSANE apm it takes to control 5 units where each unit has 1+ skill and 3 heroes where the heroes have 3+ skills. I was more in-depth with the warcraft notion of expertise than I was with the notion of expertise in Broodwar. To me, broodwar was simply about pumping units and sending them on a-move while pumping new units. I was quite bored with broodwar but in spite of that I decided to take another shot (night watching Proleague) at it. Now that I had spent two nights watching stuff run chaotically around and explode, I began to recognize some interesting things, like the fact that a terran (Flash, bless my Ignorance at the time) was
actually moving a pack of units (vultures) at TWO places at what seemed to be THE SAME TIME.

That was the breaking moment for me. I said to myself, wait, wait, BroodWar might actually require some skill other than pumping units and sending them on attack-move. I dug deeper into forums and watched more Proleague and began to recognize the fact that the small and seemingly insignificant details of the players' games were actually very intentional and did require a lot of skill to execute. From then on I continued to actively follow the proscene in BroodWar and BE AMAZED at the new things I discovered about the game and its AWESOME players.

However, I also actively followed the Warcraft scene not only as a spectator but as an actual player. Don't listen to Naniwa's claims, I did not even know if Naniwa said that wc3 requires less skill, but if he did, I understand why I have never heard of him until he started playing sc2. Warcraft DOES require a lot of skills but those skills are totally different to the ones required in broodwar. Warcraft is about a constant fight, and by fight, I mean actual units hitting each other from beginning to the very end. To a starcraft player a warcraft game might look like a small group of units hitting each other and nothing dying, but a warcraft player will recognize the skill inside it, like where even unit animations matter and you can avoid projectiles and spells by manually triggering skills, where you can prevent enemy units escaping while surrounding them, where last hitting a unit is the only difference between win and loss.

What I am getting at with this rant is that in the beginning to me broodwar was a game that required ABSOLUTELY no skill rather than not forgetting to pump units out of your production facilities. When I got more into the game, and I got deep, I began to recognize the notion of skill and that it requires a lot of practice and talent to be the best. Warcraft is the same in that regard.

To most of TLr's it just looks like a game where no skill is required but it is not fair. Most of the TLrs never actually look any time to research what the game was all about or take a look at the proscene and the huge tournaments that were taking place. So, in response to the massive bias and maybe outright passive hate towards wc3 players I see in this very forum in this very thread (I'm not going to point fingers unless necessary) I can respond only like this:

Unless you have actively followed the wc3 proscene, you don't have the right to voice your opinion. Take your time and research a bit more about a game instead of showing how ignorant the average fanboy can be.

Sc2 is also awesome and does require a lot of skill btw.

On October 26 2011 02:56 Jibba wrote:

First, perhaps you should retake statistics. Second, let's look at TLPD. Removing the Koreans from page 1:
+ Show Spoiler +

Basically, this is a really stupid argument. There's a lot of top foreigners from both games. The region at the very top, Korea, is mostly dominated by ex-BW players but it's because BW is also still the biggest ESPORT in Korea, whereas Korean WC3 died right after the MBC map scandal. BW skills may lend themselves slightly better to SC2 than WC3 skills, but that's unprovable, and a SC2 seems to have found a large middle ground between BW and WC3 mechanics. People can poke and prod and talk about watchability, but there shouldn't be any hate between the two communities. SC2 is maybe like 2/3 BW, 1/3 WC3.

Now what I don't agree with is Beyonder saying all games are equal, especially when money is involved. For competition, chess is better than checkers. It's fine if you're just playing with your grandma, but checkers has literally been solved. If you're playing for money, there is an actual #1 sequence of moves that a computer has solved. Most multiplayer games haven't, but I still think it's silly to say all games are equal, especially when there is a limit to the size of the pie. Aside from SC2 attracting Halo fans at MLG, I can't think of an example where cross promotion of game types actually worked and made everyone happy. It usually has no effect at all.

'Wait, how about the fact that the amount of skill sc requires is more than wc3?'
That is an utterly and FUNDAMENTALLY wrong. How do I know? Well, apart from being semi-professional wc3 player, I also had keen interest in other esports. I had played bw, but not nearly as competitively or in depth as Wc3. 6 years ago I moved to the Netherlands and one night I decided to check on youtube if there are any tournaments in sc:bw which are as big as the ones I see in wc3 (God bless my ignorance).

On October 26 2011 05:15 Vul wrote:


What? So because you played WC3 at an amateur level and watched BW you know that BW requires equal skill? You have a very high esteem for your own opinions, but I'm not sure that that's warranted.

The only way that you could actually know what you claim is if you played both WC3 and BW at the highest level. By that I mean if you had both Grubby's career and Jaedong's career, for example. Watching BW and playing WC3 at an amateur level doesn't cut it, and frankly puts you on about equal footing with me and most of the other people in this thread.

edit: Personally I find it hard to believe that what Grubby achieved compares to what Jaedong achieved, etc. But it's ridiculous to claim that somehow anyone posting here has special knowledge about this that would outweigh everyone else's opinion.

On October 26 2011 05:15 Vul wrote:


What? So because you played WC3 at an amateur level and watched BW you know that BW requires equal skill? You have a very high esteem for your own opinions, but I'm not sure that that's warranted.

The only way that you could actually know what you claim is if you played both WC3 and BW at the highest level. By that I mean if you had both Grubby's career and Jaedong's career, for example. Watching BW and playing WC3 at an amateur level doesn't cut it, and frankly puts you on about equal footing with me and most of the other people in this thread.

edit: Personally I find it hard to believe that what Grubby achieved compares to what Jaedong achieved, etc. But it's ridiculous to claim that somehow anyone posting here has special knowledge about this that would outweigh everyone else's opinion.

On October 26 2011 05:22 Holcan wrote:

Grubby wasnt a particularly high achiever, he was just a brilliant macro artist, and a player from Europe with strong results, someone like Creolophus would be much better lined up with a bonjwa, as he only played for a small period of time, but had great results.