EPTThe strategy forum is not a place for balance discussion
PVT unbalance in diamond league - Page 5
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
The strategy forum is not a place for balance discussion | ||
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Mastermind
Canada7096 Posts
On May 28 2010 02:20 JreL209 wrote: LOL all the protoss claiming to lose must be TROLLs, or non-platinum. thats correct, we are not platinum, we are diamond. I find pvt to be the hardest protoss mu by far. | ||
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JiYan
United States3668 Posts
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bobcat
United States488 Posts
On May 28 2010 03:44 Santriel wrote: Zergs and Protoss can basically insta-respawn half their armies when they lose a fight somewhere while the terran has to re-train everything taking about 10x the time and you still have the balls to say we're not punished ? I agree; Terrans need the ability to warp-gate. Then we'll be even. I dont know what gives you the impression that 3 warp gates can "insta respawn an army". Not to mention the fact that gateways can only produce infantry. You can use reactors for helions and viking/medivac. Its easier to macro as protoss, big deal, thats supposed to be one of our armies advantages. | ||
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Kurt_Russell
Canada147 Posts
On May 28 2010 03:44 iEchoic wrote: My lord. Until Terran starts winning tournaments regularly, you can't call them imbalanced. And lol @ the dork who used the starcraft unit counter to see what army costs more. Clearly whoever spends more on their army should always win, right! Even if the other player micros better, uses perfect EMPs and has a perfect composition to beat your army! You should always be able to a-move your army into the opponent's and win! Exactly, in that TLO vs Nony video posted earlier, we see Nony pretty much attack-move and not accomplish much with his void rays during the battle... keeping them way too far away to attack. | ||
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Lithose
United States31 Posts
TLO's army: 17 marines, 11 Marauders, 3 ghosts total cost: 2400m / 725 g / 45 supply NonY's army: 12 Zealots, 3 immortals, 7 stalkers, 3 sentries total cost: 2975m / 950g / 56 supply Results? 10 Marines, 6 marauders and 1 ghost left, all but 1 immortal and 2 stalkers almost dead survived. Pretty sure, right before he engaged, TLO finished upgrades, giving his forces 2/1, while nony didn't upgrade his ground forces at all. Also, the game isn't about cost comparisons. 10 banelings can beat 40 marines, but the marines cost more. 1 Mutalisk can kill 10 marauders...See where I'm going? Mashing up price comparisons isn't a good way to gauge a unit compositions strength, at all. | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
First, there are several posts that are saying, "Well Marine/Marauder/Medivac/Hellion/Tank/Thor/Viking/Ghost/Raven/Banshee/SCV/Battlecruiser/Reaper/OrbitalCommand/Everythingtheycanmake is beating my Sentry/Stalker/Zealot/Colossi mix!" Of course it is! That is a SHITLOAD of units (and a superior army composition). The problem is getting there. How are you letting him get there? If he's just turtling up to that, contain him. There's no way he can make enough of each unit to effectively hold off your push early game if he's making all of that at once. Take map control and just out macro him. To make any kind of decent army like that, he'll need at least two bases, if not more. Second, there's a post claiming NonY's battle in game 7 of the 3rd place HD Invitational match vs. TLO shows imbalance. Not only were the army costs fairly close, this post conveniently leaves out the fact that NonY completely rolls TLO with roughly 8 Void Rays about 5 seconds after that. This leads me to my third, and main point. "His army beat my army in a straight up fight, it's imbalanced!" I can also throw in here, "It shouldn't be easier for the T player than the P player!" Yea, it happens. That's just the nature of the game. Perfect balance where each race had a maxed 200/200 army that could take on each other is impossible while keeping racial identity. Also, keeping each race at the same difficulty level throughout is also impossible for the same reason. Just ask Zerg players. Their late game is atrocious, and they don't have a real army composition that can take on Terran OR Protoss head-on late game. Look at BW - everyone takes this as the pinnacle of balance, but lets take PvT for an example. First, it's pretty well known that it's damn near impossible for P to crack a set up 200/200 mech army. They had to win by doing stuff other than clashing out on an open battlefield - harass, take map control, etc... You don't just let your opponent build up. Second, we all know that there's skill level differences in BW, and it's the most balanced video game in modern times. T requires significantly more APM - this has been a well known fact for a very long time. P can more or less A-move everything (this has been put on T-shirts even) while T has to spend an extreme amount of APM setting up a proper mech army. There are plenty of other examples like this, but it comes to one main point. Suck it up. Yea, in a perfect world, each race would take the same amount of skill to play and every combo would have a different combo that has a perfect chance of beating it, but that's just not the way the world works. | ||
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Nitron
Singapore177 Posts
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Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
On May 28 2010 03:44 iEchoic wrote: My lord. Until Terran starts winning tournaments regularly, you can't call them imbalanced. And lol @ the dork who used the starcraft unit counter to see what army costs more. Clearly whoever spends more on their army should always win, right! Even if the other player micros better, uses perfect EMPs and has a perfect composition to beat your army! You should always be able to a-move your army into the opponent's and win! First of all "dork" not having many terrans winning tournaments is not a proof that the matchup TvP is balanced. Secondly, no, whoever spends more should not always win. Thats a straw man you just made up. NonY had zealots + immortals + sentries which are supposed counters to marines and marauders. Thirdly, NonY did not micro worse than TLO. Watch the video more closely if you somehow doubt it. Finally, another typical straw man. | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On May 28 2010 04:03 Duelist wrote: First of all "dork" not having many terrans winning tournaments is not a proof that the matchup TvP is balanced. Secondly, no, whoever spends more should not always win. Thats a straw man you just made up. NonY had zealots + immortals + sentries which are supposed counters to marines and marauders. Thirdly, NonY did not micro worse than TLO. Watch the video more closely if you somehow doubt it. Finally, another typical straw man. You're still leaving out the part where even though NonY lost (by a very narrow margin), he proceeded to completely roll TLO with something like 8 Void Rays mere seconds later. Yea, his army lost, but he still won. How? He didn't just let TLO build up and then A-move his army into TLO's, he caught him off-guard while also having the economic advantage the entire game. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On May 28 2010 02:10 arb wrote: The fact that terran shit is so strong that nony lost a much much higher cost army while terran was left with most all of his units still alive? did you even read the post? Maybe you cant compare "unit mix a" with "unit mix b" on a cost vs cost basis? 20 Marauders vs 1 Void Ray perhaps? In the example above Nony had quite a few Zealots, but melee units need to reach their targets to deal damage ... until then they are a zero damage unit. Upgrades were NOT counted in the comparison above and StimPack has always been awesome for Terran infantry. | ||
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Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On May 28 2010 04:09 Duelist wrote: I did leave the void rays part out because having doubts whether a 3k ++ minerals and gas protoss army full of counters for the terran incoming 2k ++ army should lose would be ridiculous. You're failing to see that Starcraft isn't a one dimensional game where armies straight up battle each other and whichever one wins decides the victor. There's a lot more depth to it than that. | ||
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SpicyCrab
402 Posts
I have been playing terran since beta launched and the situation today is the same as the situation always was. I find that I can easily beat protoss players who aren't as good as I am and lose very badly to protoss players who are better than I am. If you have a low win rate against terran you might just be bad at the matchup. Please post some replays so some actual constructive criticism can be levied. With all the anti-terran whining going on lately I am sure we can expect a huge terran nerf any way; that seems to be how blizzard operates, so just hold your breath in the mean time. Seriously, if you ACTUALLY want help then post some replays. I don't see top level toss losing handily to top level terran in droves; there is something you can do, would you like to learn it? | ||
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Infiltrator
Montenegro80 Posts
When I see a terran wall-in with rax (no tech lab) and start pumping marines, I am honestly unsure what to do. After he's walled up, the only way for me to know is going robo. But that puts me in a disadvantage if he comes out with marine + tank, tanks are not the primary damage dealers here so immortals aren't that useful. If I don't go robo and expect marine/tank, I get attacked by cloaked banshees. All in all, against a good T I really don't know what to expect, and when I win it's usually because I lucked out on guessing his army composition. | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On May 28 2010 04:11 Infiltrator wrote: I too am somewhat having trouble against PvT lately. When I see a terran wall-in with rax (no tech lab) and start pumping marines, I am honestly unsure what to do. After he's walled up, the only way for me to know is going robo. But that puts me in a disadvantage if he comes out with marine + tank, tanks are not the primary damage dealers here so immortals aren't that useful. If I don't go robo and expect marine/tank, I get attacked by cloaked banshees. All in all, against a good T I really don't know what to expect, and when I win it's usually because I lucked out on guessing his army composition. Zealot/Sentry destroys Marines, so that negates any really early push with those. Next would be a possible Tank/Marine push, but by the time that comes out, you should be able to have 1) an Observer in his base and 2) Immortals (or maybe even a Colossi) on the way to easily hold it back. If he tries a Banshee push, you should still have an Observer in his base very quickly, and that's completely negated. Any kind of early hidden pushes like these can be easily countered and put him WAY behind economically and army-wise. | ||
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Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
On May 28 2010 04:10 Stratos_speAr wrote: You're failing to see that Starcraft isn't a one dimensional game where armies straight up battle each other and whichever one wins decides the victor. There's a lot more depth to it than that. Another straw man lol. I didn't say SC is one dimension, and im glad it isn't but in this specific case that's exactly what happened. lol Armies fought straight up, and the winner of the battle won the game. | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On May 28 2010 04:14 Duelist wrote: Another straw man lol. I didn't say SC is one dimension, and im glad it isn't but in this specific case that's exactly what happened. lol Armies fought straight up, and the winner of the battle won the game. Your point is just straight up wrong. Just because one army can straight up beat the other doesn't mean he'll win the game. --Spoilers, TLO vs. NonY-- + Show Spoiler + Your example is also completely wrong and doesn't support your argument because NonY actually won game 7 and the entire series. | ||
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bobcat
United States488 Posts
On May 28 2010 03:29 Santriel wrote: As a terran player, I find the easiest race to counter is the toss. Basically it's not because terrans are OP, it's because 90%+ of protoss players are total dumbasses. They either: - Try to blind-rush you with 3 or 4 warp gates -> Enjoy the wall. - Speed their way to void rays then cry when their "oh so original" 2-3 void rays attack gets blown to smithereens by 10 marines. - Don't bother attacking ravens (who cares right ? They can 'only' render 9/10th of your army useless). - Leave ghosts completely untouched, even when ghosts have the annoying tendency of walking in the front lines when grouped. - Almost NEVER bother using force fields but instead cast defensive shield 4 times in a row... AT THE SAME TIME. - Scanning towers ? What be this ? Lets just walk 6 DTs in his scanner range. He might have scan but i'm invis right ? I'm sure the giant pinging red dots won't alert him... The fact that protoss is "easy" to steamroll as terran is not due to race advantage, it's due to the accumulation of gross errors by protoss players who just assume "I play the strongest race so whatever I do will guarantee a win". Also, most protoss players have the baaad tendency of trying to play a la total annihilation. "Yeah let's just spam my biggest units and don't give a shit about strategy !" You beat most of the toss you come up against, and your conclusion is that you are just supah smert and they be a dumz. You sir................ are brilliant! It would seem that in your opinion all a protoss player has to do is know the exact composition of your forces, not harrass you with VR's or DT's. Build an army that perfectly counters yours, and then snipe all of your ghost and ravens before you get a chance to use them? And of course we wouldnt be able to win even if we did all of this unless we catch your army moving to our base with its pants down. Yeah man, I cant tell you how many times that situation has come up for me. Oh, and we shouldn't use guardian shield to cover our units from ranged attacks cuz terrans dont have a lot of those. That would be a bad decision. | ||
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Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
On May 28 2010 04:16 Stratos_speAr wrote: Your point is just straight up wrong. Just because one army can straight up beat the other doesn't mean he'll win the game. Also, + Show Spoiler + NonY actually won game 7 and the entire series. Lolz. Read what i wrote. I said in that specific case, that's exactly what happened. + Show Spoiler + I know he won, thanks for the spoiler  By battle i meant including the void rays btw. | ||
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