This is just based on my experience, and i am sure many of you have had completely different experiences. Also I do not have a replay handy since I am posting this from work.
I am fairly knowledgable about the game. The highest rating I have gotten to before the recent patch was about 2100. These days I play mostly toss. I am good with zerg, but not as good. And I am not great with terran.
I am writing this post because I want to get your opinions and your suggestions about how to deal with PVT. I have been having problems with Terrans in 1v1 who turtle, get tanks, marines, marauders, and vikings. I havn't found any protoss unit combo that will work decently against it. It's driving me nuts, because many times I have played way better than my opponent, but they just sit in their bases and build up these huge armies of bio and tanks and vikings and then roll out and steam roll me. Even with me being able to get expands I just can't beat the unit combo.
My general strat is to hit them fast and hard with 3 or 4 gate pumping stalkers, mabey with blink, build a pylon outside their base so that I can keep warping in as I am attacking. I also like chargelots and sometimes voidray if they are marauder heavy. Immortals seem decent, but only if u have a lot of them. They get taken down by marauders and marines pretty quickly. Collossus are great units, but pretty much useless these days. 3-6 vikings just demolish them. Vikings are driving me nuts with their range and speed.
The general consensus seems to suggest chargelots and high templar, but 1 well placed emp can shut down your HT. and psi storm never seems to do enough damage, they stim and run away and let their tanks blast u.
Please let me know if u think i am crazy or just bad or w/e. But from what I can see there isn't really much Toss can do against this strat. I think the reason that terran is a bit unbalanced right now is that they are harder to play than zerg or toss. This means that lower league people generally steer away from terran and bitch cause they arnt very good with terran. So terran gets buffed in order to get lower league people to play it more often, this unbalances it for the pros though. In my recent 1v1s probably half of the games I play are against terrans. Its driving me nuts to know that I can play better and still lose because their unit composition is a counter to anything that toss can throw at them. Feel free to dis me for whining or not posting replay or w/e. Mabey ill post one later.
I concur with your opinion--for toss to win a fight, it's generally necessary that they contain the enemy forces somehow, be it with FF or some alternative method. The issue with fighting terran mech (tanks/MMM/viking) is that once terran gets a critical number of tanks (5 or 6) it's near impossible to engage them due to the threat of an EMP melt-fest. Because of this issue, toss's only option is to run away and hope that they can wreck the T while they're out of position. For this reason, I believe that the most optimal way to beat T right now as P is to simply play as if it's SC1--attempt to surround them while their army is moving...take advantage of warpgates and FF to overwhelm them. The only other way I've been beating terran consistently is by going either VR + stalker rush when they go mass marauder or simply a 4gate when they go 111.
For ghosts v templar, try an obs with you and feedback the ghosts--it's micro intensive and just intense but it can work.
Two sort of general things. One, I don't know if you consider pheonixes, but they can protect your collosi from vikings and they can also lift tanks/harass. Second, I'm not sure 4 gate is the best build vT if they don't one rax expand--isn't it more a vZ or vP build? I would check the reps b/c you might be getting behind at the 4 gate push, especially if it's not working out and you're still warping in stuff. It could be a tipping point in the econ game.
Now that that's out of the way - from the terran PoV, you can't get m/m ball AND siege'd tanks AND ghosts AND Vikings/Ravens, until your nat is up and running. Secondly, be sure to position you're HTs smartly, and make sure you can warp new ones (with the +25 energy upgrade) in a safe spot. No matter how I sneak my ghosts around, I can never ever dispose of every HT, and it always comes down to who played the better overall game. Hope it helps.
My intuition says your economy is too small - generally if an opponent's composition seems unbeatable it's because your army is too small. You might also consider more use of air and/or upgrades.
in my experience you have to end the game before they get a significant number of tanks and ghosts. once they have 3 ghosts and more than 4 tanks or so, any ground army gets demolished and they won't lose a single unit. try to watch their tanks with an observer and the second they unsiege and start to move out, hit them fast and hopefully they will be out of position allowing blink stalkers to clean them up. if they're smart they will have a viking nearby to scout any observers tho.
i keep theorycrafting in my head that an air army of phoenix and carrier would beat this but i havent tried it cuz protoss air is... yea. but if they turtle its easy to expand and get the resources to build enough carriers so it could work, its just all protoss are too scared to try an air army.
Do you know what I find most helpful when someone start calling the imbalance? Suggest him to roll the other side and start owning his main race with this so called buletproof strategy. You'll soon discover new ways to play your main when more capable players show you the way.
As a Terran it seems to me like Protoss plays too little standard 1 one-base play. It's always a rush to tech or something and then I can just walk right in their front door while they are yelling "AMMAGAD MAMARUDERS IMBA". I lost 2 games in diamond leagues, both to Protoss. The first one was against a dude who went mass DT's and there was no way I could scan them all. We ended up wiping eachothers main (plus I got his nat) but he just continued to send out DT's all around and snipe my ravens and then I was boned when I ran out of scans.
The second dude rushed to chargelots. This seemed like a good tactic though I know I could have won, because I was in his base destroying his gateways when I thought I saw DT's and ran like a bitch. There were no DT's only more Zealots. DAMN GRAPHICS CARD!
If you see the Terran massing up a army of one base I really think you should prepare for an attack.
against the turtle terran its normaly ok to get "some" colossus because they have to decide, vikings or ghost? or tanks or vikings? they cant build "everything"
yeah and dont forget fast DT sometimes good.. but scout first for ebay. than run into his base, wait for the mule. than attack.
i always lose to terrans that proxy thier first rax and overrun me with marauder... its so much easier to micro 2 marauder, than to micro 1 zealot and 3- 5 probs, until your stalker is out, than micro the lot that hopefully is not dead until that point + stalker + probes against 3marauder with slow rdy...
most of the time my zealot is dead, the stalker cant win allone, and i lose too many probs to come back.... gg can someone give me some replays with rly good terrans that lose with proxy fast marauder?
Besides the missing replay (lol) I can understand bowserbowser's point. Once there's a certain amount of tanks and anti-air (Marines, Vikings) there's literally nothing P can do than catching T off-guard or out of position. FF does shit against sieged tanks which just annihilate any ground force P can offer. VRs melt under Viking/Marine fire, Immortals < Marines.
Well, I rather think me, bowserbowser (and Protoss in general) are doing something wrong than the MU being imbalanced/broken.
Hello there! I am also a Protoss player and top 5 in the diamond league. I would like to give you some advice versus the match-up against Terran but first let me tell you something. Starcraft 2 boils down to the basics! Its not about unit vs unit while it surely does matter to an extent. Take my friend for example, he plays Starcraft 2 casually and I could sure beat him with only my stalkers versus his immortals. I said no rush 15 minutes let him pump his immortals while my stalkers, who take 50 damage from Immortals, are also being pumped and I beat him. It goes down to the old saying that "Take a rich man and strip all his money, he will eventually get it back. Take a poor man and give him millions, he will eventually lose it all".
To answer your question lets first go back to the basics. At the start of every match I want you to emphasize on your build. Are you doing the same build every game? If you are not, why not? When you build your pylon do you have 40 minerals? Make that pylon so that after you build it, you have 0 minerals. Do you get supply blocked sometimes? Do you build units and harass with your probe? These are just a few questions that you should pay careful attention to. You have to be consistent on your builds because these small things are the things that separate the PROS and the AMATEURS. How do you think top players in the world consistently stay on top? If these guys are PROS, how come copying exactly their strategy doesn't put you in the #1 Diamond League? It boils down to the basics. These small difference turn into something big over time.
Strategy: IN ALL 1v1 MAPS (only 2 base location spawns), always get a 10-gate. ** I justify this because you want to open up with a fast stalker harass or defense against reaper.
BUILD ORDER - 9 Pylon (send probe to build pylon at about 70 minerals near your nexus)
** send this pylon probe to scout for enemy. If he has a barracks building, then he is going reapers or fast marauders with concussive shells. If he has a supply depot and building a barracks that means he is NOT going reapers anytime soon. Just check his base if he has any barracks in it or if its building. If there is not, then he is rushing reapers near your base or marauders. Both are deadly as they can kite all your units. Also if he doesn't have any vaspene geysers, that means you can rule out reapers/marauders early-game.
- 1 Probe - 10 Gateway - 2 probes (chrono boost) - 13 Assimilator - 2 probes (chrono boost; yes do it again) - Cybernetics whenever Gateway is up - 1 probe - 16 Pylon - 2 probes (chrono boost)
We want to summon our stalker (chrono boost) ASAP along with researching Warp Gates ASAP. Depending on your scouting of your 9 pylon probe, you will do one of the following: 1) Rally your gateway (summoning a stalker) to enemy base. Do this if no early vaspene or early barracks. 2) Rally your gateway to your mineral line. Do this if you suspect reaper harass.
As soon as stalker builds, build another stalker and chrono boost it.
Your stalker will see one of the following. You will either see a Barracks with Tech Lab or a naked Barracks. Sometimes you might even scout a factory or another barracks.
DO THE FOLLOWING:
If you see a barracks that is naked, send another stalker into his base and keep pumping units. Harass his supply depots/marines that come out to defend. Kill the SCVs that repair. Try to bust in his base. In the mean time you will be transitioning to a 4-gate Warp.
Focus your chrono to your Warp Gate research now. When its about 70%, build 3 more Gateways.
** ITS CRUCIAL TO ALWAYS BUILD PROBES AT YOUR NEXUS. AT LEAST (1) PROBE MUST BE BUILDING AT ALL TIMES.
Proxy pylon near his base. Send a volley of stalkers. If there are some marauders, match 1 zealot vs his marauder to tank the damage so your stalkers don't get demolished. Keep pressuring his front. Get a few sentries if you are in excess of gas. Guardian shield up. Forcefield only if you can block his untis from running away.
This will destroy anyone who is teching to tanks.
Now lets rewind back in time to the first stalker. Lets say your first stalker arrives at his base and HE DOES have a marauder or two. This is a signal to send about 2-3 more stalkers and dance around his supply depots. This will force him to go more marauders. Perfect. We transition to a 3-gate and 1-robo build.
Lets say you weren't able to scout his 3-4 barracks with tech labs with mass marauders because you thought he was going tanks and your stalker volley gets demolished. Lets say we already made a 4-gate without a robo. Don't BUILD a robotics. You cannot upkeep 4 gateways pumping constant units, probes in nexus and another robotics bay. Build a Twilight Council instead and research Hallucination at your Cybernetics. This allows you to blink stalkers and use hallucinated phoenix to scout. Also get Charge from zealots.
Basically same build as above except we are not going to be as aggressive. Always keep your resources to 0 minerals and 0 vaspene. Pump up zealots and sentries at the same time. Then stalkers. Then zealots and sentries.
Your first robo should be an observer chrono boosted.
I mean really this is the general idea of the build. Always assume drops with MMM. Always assume banshees. Always assume reapers in your base. Its pretty much common sense as far as the game goes. If you can't penetrate his front, get a gold expansion as "bait" for him to get out. If you lose it then you can hit his base or at least tell him to come out. If by any means he is outproducing you with a "bigger" force then you are doing wrong with your macro.
On May 27 2010 23:01 Garalor wrote: against the turtle terran its normaly ok to get "some" colossus because they have to decide, vikings or ghost? or tanks or vikings? they cant build "everything"
yeah and dont forget fast DT sometimes good.. but scout first for ebay. than run into his base, wait for the mule. than attack.
i always lose to terrans that proxy thier first rax and overrun me with marauder... its so much easier to micro 2 marauder, than to micro 1 zealot and 3- 5 probs, until your stalker is out, than micro the lot that hopefully is not dead until that point + stalker + probes against 3marauder with slow rdy...
most of the time my zealot is dead, the stalker cant win allone, and i lose too many probs to come back.... gg can someone give me some replays with rly good terrans that lose with proxy fast marauder?
Day9 cast some games between Nazgul and Stelok that have the proxy marauder opening in a few of them. You could look at those to see how Nazgul dealt with it.
On May 27 2010 23:12 bargaw wrote: bioball with vikings is pretty much unbeatable for toss. Adding ghost to mix, makes it GG.
ALL toss units are countered by this combo.
Storm. Spread your HT's pls. Terran can't have vikings, ghost, marauders on 2 bases. If terran can get that composition then you are outplayed, that's not imbalance.
Same thread can be made about zerg vs. terran mech.. Terran just seems to have better hard counters atm. I guess thats why those pro Koreans say terran is the best race
yeah im still trying to figure out how to counter this in diamond league...i can win all the early game fights and get in a good position using phenoix which is kinda fun, ive had games where ive been maxed out 200/200 with more expos than terran, upgrades/mothership/void rays/chargelots/storm/everything
but once they just turtle up and come out with the ball and nothing i throw at them can take out their army. Storm helps but its pretty much a coin flip ethier im going to get off my storms or im going to get emp'd. My other units pretty much all die w/out doing any damage at all.
then he jus goes "gg man i thought u had me" and im like yeah...
Instead of calling out imba tho, I was wondering if anyone can recommend some high level reps with late game pvt action, i don't need to know how to end games early vs t, rather im trying to practice long macro games against t.
i thought this would be aboout how terran arent good versus toss. I think... Solely based on the complaining by both sides i think that tvp might be fairly balanced. I have trouble with mass ff and colossi and other players have trouble with marauder and tank. Formatting for this might be weird. On my phone but ill post more whem i get home
On May 27 2010 23:38 Pengu1n wrote: yeah im still trying to figure out how to counter this in diamond league...i can win all the early game fights and get in a good position using phenoix which is kinda fun, ive had games where ive been maxed out 200/200 with more expos than terran, upgrades/mothership/void rays/chargelots/storm/everything
but once they just turtle up and come out with the ball and nothing i throw at them can take out their army. Storm helps but its pretty much a coin flip ethier im going to get off my storms or im going to get emp'd. My other units pretty much all die w/out doing any damage at all.
then he jus goes "gg man i thought u had me" and im like yeah...
Instead of calling out imba tho, I was wondering if anyone can recommend some high level reps with late game pvt action, i don't need to know how to end games early vs t, rather im trying to practice long macro games against t.
I am 100000% sure that you don't have a replay of that. Why is there not 1 single replay in this thread?
Exactly Inori. Before protoss got nerfed to the ground, zergs and terrans were still able to win vs them. The question here is not whether the protoss made mistakes in a specific game and could have won if he did x or y. The question is if it's a matchup equally hard for both. Before colossus got nerfed, people would still kill them and say it's possible to counter them. Of course it was. But now they got nerfed, and it's better, more balanced (at least vs zerg). Same applies to terran. Just because it's possible to beat terran by pulling jedi mind tricks and playing perfectly, doesn't mean it's balanced. Two players of the same skill one playing terran and the other protoss, should have a hard time finishing each other, but to me, it just seems the terran has a easier time as it is now, which means for a protoss to win a terran, the protoss must be of a considerable higher skill than the terran. Could be wrong though, but thats what i feel.
On May 27 2010 22:46 araged wrote: Do you know what I find most helpful when someone start calling the imbalance? Suggest him to roll the other side and start owning his main race with this so called buletproof strategy. You'll soon discover new ways to play your main when more capable players show you the way.
This actually, the grass is allways greener. I dont play toss (didnt even finish my last 2 placement matches after crashing 7 games i won and 1 lost vs a 7 pool). But learning the other race makes you learn yourself easily
this is just another theorycraft based complaint thread. Any large mixed unit composition is imba vs any other army if the micro, position and timings aren't right. They get sneakier everyday....
If the tech is coming out too fast then your just not doing a proper timing push back.
If your letting ghosts roam the map and emp ur ht then your not scouting or protected them. Remember how hard it was to protect ht vs muta snipes and vulture raids? yeah, not anymore, should be able to protect them.
Even if storm aren't as effective, they still rape infantry.
I think forcefield is imba in a large war considering you can basically cut an army in half making it a 100PSI count vs a 50 psi count battle. O wait, you forget to mention p had thats spell....
I'm perfectly happy to see more players give up on toss because I hate PvPs.
I'm not sure that there are any gross imbalances between protoss and terran, but I do agree that it seems that the protoss player has a much smaller margin for error than the terran. As a toss, if you miss one ghost, you're probably screwed.
That said, now that the void ray range has been nerfed, I think that vikings are a little too effective against void rays on a cost basis.
i am a diamond terran player ( not very good thouh) and my hardest mu is by far vs protoss and i was thinking the exact same thing as the OP but the other way round after reading this whole thread i think this matchup seems pretty much balanced if both sides feel the same way so mb i just have to practice a littelmore =), i recommend to u to do the same ,whining wont get u anywhere
Colossi, chargelots and some stalker/sentry do fine against MMM. Against MMM with tanks you can add in some phoenix for harass and lifting tanks during battle's. Because vikings are good vs colossi doesnt mean you shouldnt make them, colossi still rape marines and if you trade your colossi for his marines you get ahead as his vikings are pretty bad on ground.
On May 27 2010 23:12 bargaw wrote: bioball with vikings is pretty much unbeatable for toss. Adding ghost to mix, makes it GG.
ALL toss units are countered by this combo.
A) Then play terran and go pro, you crybaby
B) HT. The vikings are wasted resources if the P doesn't go air, so i would even say chargelot sentry stalker would work, but with HT, its pretty much guaranteed.
C) Oh and yeah, The biggest imbalance since the start of the beta has been P >> T, from the mouth of blizzard's stats. I doubt that reducing stim and shields by 50/50 swung it so far in the other direction.
So i took the liberty of picking two great players, and a battle between a protoss and a terran army. And used the SC2 unit tester map to calculate costs of the units involved.
I chose TLO vs NonY of the HDH invitationals, the battle can be seen here. It will skipp right to the middle of the game, so if you didn't see the game don't watch it
TLO's army:
17 marines, 11 Marauders, 3 ghosts
total cost: 2400m / 725 g / 45 supply
NonY's army:
12 Zealots, 3 immortals, 7 stalkers, 3 sentries
total cost: 2975m / 950g / 56 supply
Results?
10 Marines, 6 marauders and 1 ghost left, all but 1 immortal and 2 stalkers almost dead survived.
I think protoss should use it's mobility in sneaking up against the terran... most of the time when I lose to zerg is when they go for a nydus worm (that's why I always patrol marines in my base)
Anyway there's always the unstoppable VR's when you a mass them
I think this thread isn't about imbalance in PvT it's about imba Tanks in siege mode. Tanks are the main problem, if u find the way to deal with tanks than u'l win terrans ground army.
At least it helped me as zerg to find way to win 10 siege tanks + 3 thors + 10 hellions. If u drop ultrals +blings on them u'l win, and ur army will cost less recources And it's rather real way, ofcorse it doesn't mean that u should start making blings and ultra from the very beginnig till the end. There are lots of transactions like speedlings against early harass, roaches against few tanks+hellions, some muta haras, all this will buy u time to get ultras. And it's rather easy to make mass drop on thors because overlords isn't so easy to kill.
But it's strategy for zerg, as for protoss i suggest u find unit composition which will beat terrans tank+whatever he got, and then think how u can live till u build that counter for terrans army.
I think that some phoenix+some colossus + lots of chargelots+some senry, some rays may be try make some warp prisms and warp zalots on tanks or something. Well u should really find the way to kill that terrans unit combination first in unit tester map, than develop your tactic and bo for the game.
Also tanks aren't mobile so mass drops are rather effective, like drops 10ling on each terran base, i think protos also can do this U also have dtemplars, and it's a myth that terran has no limit on scans, and there won't be too many ravens u can focus them.
On May 28 2010 00:22 m3rciless wrote: C) Oh and yeah, The biggest imbalance since the start of the beta has been P >> T, from the mouth of blizzard's stats. I doubt that reducing stim and shields by 50/50 swung it so far in the other direction.
Blizzard are known to know nothing about current race standings. Several patch changes, especially to Zerg proved it time and time again. Also what you're saying is that you know the game better than korean top pro gamers?
What do you mean 'known'? All im saying is that 1 or 2 patches ago, things were 56% to 44% or something in favor of P. Obviously this includes bad players, so interpret that as you like, but the principle stands. Protoss was clearly stronger than terran. Then there were more terran buffs and some minor protoss nerfs, and things are probably pretty close to even now.
Stop misrepresenting that quote, as if there's some consensus among higher level players that T is the strongest race. One player said that, and didn't even mean that right now its too difficult to beat terrans, but instead that the terran race has the most potential. So even if we believe that guy, that certainly has no bearing on your mid level games.
But who knows, maybe you're right that T is favored, and i just suck versus protoss. If that's true it will come out in Blizzard's stats, and they will patch it.
On May 28 2010 00:15 lolreaper wrote: bunch of bad protoss players crying in this topic
You're an obvious troll, but I'll still reply: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=124696 this must be another bad protoss crying, right? Also note that it was done at patch 11. After patch 11 Protoss was nerfed 2 times, Terran buffed 2 times.
toss player OPINION based on theorycrafting, "maybe" on pro level if flash started playing sc2 we would see terran dominating who knows but as for now its just fairy tale since theres no such terran and all T's struggle with tvp, havent you seen demuslim or lucifron owning each other in pvt? if u rly think that tvp is so imbalanced go switch race and try it yourself.
On May 28 2010 00:17 willeesmalls wrote: The only real problem I see in PvT is good dropship play. Two dropships full of marauders can stim and snipe a nexus in like 15 seconds.
yet its fair when terran has to put turrets around his base to protect himself from dts, tell me why protoss users arent making storm drops anymore, terrans resort to all kind of harass tactics but lazy ass toss players expect to just exp mass army and 1a-tttt for the win (cant balame them, it works) ....
I open 2 gate stargate every game vs. terran and go for phoenixes. As soon as I scout him to have tanks and marines in the early game, I throw down another gateway, get sentries, zealots and a few stalkers, wait until I have four phoenixes and then you have a really nice timing window when your army just crushes his. You can use this to expand safely while leaving him with no army. Just lift the few tanks and make sure to use guardian shield and force fields. Having marines deal 3 damage per shot is really nice as a toss player. The key is to keep unit numbers low and gain an early economy advantage. As soon as he gets 10 tanks and 50 marines with upgrades there is nothing you can do because against marines you need splash damage in form of templar or colossus and both get eaten alive by tanks. the only way I found to win vs. this style is getting 6 bases, 30 gateways and recalling the shit out of him. Not cost effective at all, but it works. The keys is obviously to abuse the immobility of tanks. Like recall your army in his main to kill his production buildings and at the same time blink some stalkers into another base of his.
If you are worried about EMP on your HTs I have found that hotkeying them then keeping them in a shuttle that is also hotkeyed will keep them from getting EMPd quite effectively.
Have you ever considered that your rating pre patch was artificially high since your not that good of a player (hence ure bad performance with zerg) and only since P is such an easy race to execute did u get such an high rating. Now that the game is more balanced ure "easy" strategys dont work as well any more and the faul lies with bad fundamentals on ure part such as low APM, bad micro and macro etc?
I'd like to reccomend DTs, Hallucinations, Zealots and Pheonies. Hallucinated Immortals still use hardened shield, so they can absorb tons of siege tank shots.
As a pretty good T/P user (Definitely 2100+ with either race) I think terran is the best race if played well, but really i think it comes down to the map pool, these maps are all really small I think. The biggest problem I have as a protoss user is fighting vs ghost/mech terran armies, there is no way you can really face it in a straight up fight unless you are way ahead anyway. I find you have to play kinda scrappy against good terrans. mid game mass speed void ray switches vs mech heavy is very strong and is almost an instant win if they don't scout it. Warp prisms are pretty much arbiters. scouting is key. specific build orders for specific maps/positions also helps alot. I acutally use alot of phoenix openings, its safe, gives infinite scouting, some harass, some potentially aggressive follow ups, great map control, denies drops, and is useful vs armies w/ tanks. I usually get 4 of them then stop pumping, depending. w/ 4 of them you can 1 hit scvs which is why i get 4.
I'm really curious how things will change when the maps start being created by competitive players for competitive players. blizzard has done great but LOL at some of the maps. I mean, go play on some of the sc1 maps that have been converted, every one of them is bigger than any map in the 1v1 pool
As a terran player i acutally find TvP tougher than TvZ on alot of the maps. P has alot of abusive/annoying/potentially early game win options but as the game progresses any toss ground army just MELTS in any confrontation. Hellion drops are also ridiculously damaging and good. For me the hardest part of TvP is making sure I don't fall behind from anything in the early stages and to keep an eye out for toss tech switches. I don't really use MM much in this matchup, unless my opponent opened with a starport build.
So yea, I do think Terran currently has the advantage on the blizzard map pool in high level games, but I have a lot of Terran friends that would disagree...
On May 27 2010 23:06 gh0st- wrote: Hello there! I am also a Protoss player and top 5 in the diamond league. I would like to give you some advice versus the match-up against Terran but first let me tell you something. Starcraft 2 boils down to the basics! Its not about unit vs unit while it surely does matter to an extent. Take my friend for example, he plays Starcraft 2 casually and I could sure beat him with only my stalkers versus his immortals. I said no rush 15 minutes let him pump his immortals while my stalkers, who take 50 damage from Immortals, are also being pumped and I beat him. It goes down to the old saying that "Take a rich man and strip all his money, he will eventually get it back. Take a poor man and give him millions, he will eventually lose it all".
To answer your question lets first go back to the basics. At the start of every match I want you to emphasize on your build. Are you doing the same build every game? If you are not, why not? When you build your pylon do you have 40 minerals? Make that pylon so that after you build it, you have 0 minerals. Do you get supply blocked sometimes? Do you build units and harass with your probe? These are just a few questions that you should pay careful attention to. You have to be consistent on your builds because these small things are the things that separate the PROS and the AMATEURS. How do you think top players in the world consistently stay on top? If these guys are PROS, how come copying exactly their strategy doesn't put you in the #1 Diamond League? It boils down to the basics. These small difference turn into something big over time.
Strategy: IN ALL 1v1 MAPS (only 2 base location spawns), always get a 10-gate. ** I justify this because you want to open up with a fast stalker harass or defense against reaper.
BUILD ORDER - 9 Pylon (send probe to build pylon at about 70 minerals near your nexus)
** send this pylon probe to scout for enemy. If he has a barracks building, then he is going reapers or fast marauders with concussive shells. If he has a supply depot and building a barracks that means he is NOT going reapers anytime soon. Just check his base if he has any barracks in it or if its building. If there is not, then he is rushing reapers near your base or marauders. Both are deadly as they can kite all your units. Also if he doesn't have any vaspene geysers, that means you can rule out reapers/marauders early-game.
- 1 Probe - 10 Gateway - 2 probes (chrono boost) - 13 Assimilator - 2 probes (chrono boost; yes do it again) - Cybernetics whenever Gateway is up - 1 probe - 16 Pylon - 2 probes (chrono boost)
We want to summon our stalker (chrono boost) ASAP along with researching Warp Gates ASAP. Depending on your scouting of your 9 pylon probe, you will do one of the following: 1) Rally your gateway (summoning a stalker) to enemy base. Do this if no early vaspene or early barracks. 2) Rally your gateway to your mineral line. Do this if you suspect reaper harass.
As soon as stalker builds, build another stalker and chrono boost it.
Your stalker will see one of the following. You will either see a Barracks with Tech Lab or a naked Barracks. Sometimes you might even scout a factory or another barracks.
DO THE FOLLOWING:
If you see a barracks that is naked, send another stalker into his base and keep pumping units. Harass his supply depots/marines that come out to defend. Kill the SCVs that repair. Try to bust in his base. In the mean time you will be transitioning to a 4-gate Warp.
Focus your chrono to your Warp Gate research now. When its about 70%, build 3 more Gateways.
** ITS CRUCIAL TO ALWAYS BUILD PROBES AT YOUR NEXUS. AT LEAST (1) PROBE MUST BE BUILDING AT ALL TIMES.
Proxy pylon near his base. Send a volley of stalkers. If there are some marauders, match 1 zealot vs his marauder to tank the damage so your stalkers don't get demolished. Keep pressuring his front. Get a few sentries if you are in excess of gas. Guardian shield up. Forcefield only if you can block his untis from running away.
This will destroy anyone who is teching to tanks.
Now lets rewind back in time to the first stalker. Lets say your first stalker arrives at his base and HE DOES have a marauder or two. This is a signal to send about 2-3 more stalkers and dance around his supply depots. This will force him to go more marauders. Perfect. We transition to a 3-gate and 1-robo build.
Lets say you weren't able to scout his 3-4 barracks with tech labs with mass marauders because you thought he was going tanks and your stalker volley gets demolished. Lets say we already made a 4-gate without a robo. Don't BUILD a robotics. You cannot upkeep 4 gateways pumping constant units, probes in nexus and another robotics bay. Build a Twilight Council instead and research Hallucination at your Cybernetics. This allows you to blink stalkers and use hallucinated phoenix to scout. Also get Charge from zealots.
Basically same build as above except we are not going to be as aggressive. Always keep your resources to 0 minerals and 0 vaspene. Pump up zealots and sentries at the same time. Then stalkers. Then zealots and sentries.
Your first robo should be an observer chrono boosted.
I mean really this is the general idea of the build. Always assume drops with MMM. Always assume banshees. Always assume reapers in your base. Its pretty much common sense as far as the game goes. If you can't penetrate his front, get a gold expansion as "bait" for him to get out. If you lose it then you can hit his base or at least tell him to come out. If by any means he is outproducing you with a "bigger" force then you are doing wrong with your macro.
ive been goign 13 gate and mostly blaming terran imbalance, and i just did this and wow i had enough units to hold off like every push he made thats pretty great
if your Id is bowser on north american i've played you 6 or so times and you did the same thing every time. I FE'd every single game and you didn't do anything about it. My econ kicks in and that's game. Need to expo when i expo or do soemthing about it. force me to make extra bunkers or something... do anything to hurt my econ.
On May 27 2010 23:12 bargaw wrote: bioball with vikings is pretty much unbeatable for toss. Adding ghost to mix, makes it GG.
ALL toss units are countered by this combo.
A) Then play terran and go pro, you crybaby
B) HT. The vikings are wasted resources if the P doesn't go air, so i would even say chargelot sentry stalker would work, but with HT, its pretty much guaranteed.
C) Oh and yeah, The biggest imbalance since the start of the beta has been P >> T, from the mouth of blizzard's stats. I doubt that reducing stim and shields by 50/50 swung it so far in the other direction.
A)He probably would, you terran noob.
B)High templar are too much of an investment, and fragile, Plus emp takes them out. Marauders stop zealots from being as effective, and their higher HP allows the high DPS of the marines to be more effective, especially against zealots that have 80HP.
C)Protoss versus Terran was slightly imbalanced at the beginning of beta, but by patch 6-7 Protoss was perfectly balanced with Terran.
D)I'm a random player, and you just enjoy the easy wins. Play Warcraft 3 if you want to have unfair advantages.
I feel like Terrans aren't being aggressive enough, in general. Its not the same army it was in BW. They've got some amazing harassment and mobility options. Their army generally holds all of the cards on the table, until I get to Void Rays, Immortals and/or High Templars. It feels like they could walk over and stomp all over me at any time they wished during the first 10 minutes of the game, particularly now that 1 Thor can negate my ability to Force Field his army in two on my ramp and I need a very particular combination of Gateway units to take on a simple MM blob.
Not sure what my win rate is against Terran, but the aggressive ones always stomp me. The ones that bunker down and camp let me tech to whatever I want, and then it feels like I'm in for a good match.
On May 28 2010 00:28 Duelist wrote: So i took the liberty of picking two great players, and a battle between a protoss and a terran army. And used the SC2 unit tester map to calculate costs of the units involved.
I chose TLO vs NonY of the HDH invitationals, the battle can be seen here. It will skipp right to the middle of the game, so if you didn't see the game don't watch it
Tank balls are actually pretty easy to deal with. Tanks + a few ghosts + ravens/vikings/hellions are dealt with by chargelots + blink. Blinking masses of stalkers around my sieged tanks is EXTREMELY annoying as terran as it just destroys my tank push. If I include a small amount of marauders, get more chargelots or some immortals (and yes it does take micro to not get emp'd)
Something I see a lot of toss players do that they shouldn't is have all their immortals next to each other. Yes I will probably have enough ghosts to spam emp over your entire army but still don't make it easy for me.
If I am going extremely heavy on marauder/tank then go void rays. Without marines vikings will melt to void rays if you micro them correctly, i.e. charge them somehow (either off of a tank or rocks or a building or your own unit). Pheonix are also very useful if they don't have a lot of AA to graviton beam tanks and then move more stalkers in.
if they are bio heavy with just a few tanks then you should be going colossi or HT.
Terran armies are definitely defeatable as toss. If they are just turtling and massing then you should have 3-4 bases to their 2. You have warpgates you can just insta spawn an army if you lose your first battle and then his ghosts won't have much energy now. A toss with a macro advantage over a terran shouldn't lose to much besides a timing push.
On May 28 2010 00:28 Duelist wrote: So i took the liberty of picking two great players, and a battle between a protoss and a terran army. And used the SC2 unit tester map to calculate costs of the units involved.
I chose TLO vs NonY of the HDH invitationals, the battle can be seen here. It will skipp right to the middle of the game, so if you didn't see the game don't watch it
On May 28 2010 00:28 Duelist wrote: So i took the liberty of picking two great players, and a battle between a protoss and a terran army. And used the SC2 unit tester map to calculate costs of the units involved.
I chose TLO vs NonY of the HDH invitationals, the battle can be seen here. It will skipp right to the middle of the game, so if you didn't see the game don't watch it
TLO had 3 fricking Ghosts. Nony didn't have anything to counter them, nor any spell usage to swing the fight in his own favour besides two Guardian Shields.
There's much more to the game than resource and supply costs.
Had Nony had a slightly different composition with HTs (instagib Feedback all 3 Ghosts dead), the fight would have turned out very differently.
Nony decided on Void Rays as his tech path of choice. This leaves his ground army VERY vulnerable to Ghosts, and TLO capitalized on it, but still lost when the VRs arrived...so, what are you complaining about?
I honestly think the key to protoss is just not making any stalkers unless you know what you are doing or vs air. Statistically they fail at everything and are only good for harass purposes. Early on they are effectively but later on they put a damper on your army strength. They are weak to marines, marauders, ghosts [due to emp] tanks, heck even banshees are pretty good against them. I favour lot/sentry/immortal-->charge zealots-->storm templar and really when i get this combo good terrans only win by mass dropping me and basically outplaying me.
Obviously PvZ stalker/colossus is good because stalkers are walking forcefields and take down muta or corruptors, and do well vs roaches which colossus can struggle with.
On May 28 2010 02:52 link0 wrote: I think T > P in the lower skill brackets, but it's even in the high skill brackets.
Yeah. Whenever I lose to a terran, I always know what I did wrong and what I needed to do better. I've never come away from a PvT thinking, "Okay, wtf. That's unstoppable!" That said, I still think that PvT can be fairly unforgiving if the protoss isn't paying attention to what he's doing.
I feel you dude, before patch 13, we could still attack in the timing window when the terran turtles up. But now its impossible to push out, and instead we are getting timing pushed by the terran 4 rax stim+marine shield upgrade. I can still survive that attack and i start getting colossi to fight the mmm ball. Soon after a few tanks with siege upgrade and 1 or 2 ghost, and my whole army gets decimated by the siege tank.
Another thing to note that in BW, we counter siege tanks by surrounding the enemy with our zealots/dragoons, but sc2 maps are so freaking small, it is too difficult to try and flank the opponent.
I think what everyone wants to know, is the unit combinations to defeat MMM ball backed up by siege tanks and 1 ghost. Hopefully we can find the answer
Everything ghost said is 100% correct. I understand how you feel about PvT and I will admit that terran players have a much easier time beating a toss that out macros them then a toss has of beating a terran that does the same.
However, despite minor unit advantages etc. terrans really dont have the better army. The problem that most toss players run into with terran is that they play very differently than proto/zerg.
Against both zerg and toss, you are able to easily put pressure on early game, where against terran, you harrass with a single stalker at his wall without the intent of actually entering his base and winning right off the bat. Because all of terrans early game units are ranged, it is difficult and impossible against a good player, to put any early game zealot pressure on them, but if you could, it wouldnt be very fair for terran.
Because the terran playstyle supports being able to hide behind a choke with ranged units, you have to adapt your play style to scouting and out macroing / expanding your opponent.
It is hard to play against a terran because it forces you to play on terrans terms, not because of unbeatable unit combos or ghost tank or etc. It is because (without a high level of harrassment ability), the terran pushes when they are ready to push and you cant push them before unless you do something creative like blink stalkers or phoenix harrass.
The best thing you can do is find a terran practice partner so you can try to see things from their point of view. Hope this helps.
As a terran player, I find the easiest race to counter is the toss.
Basically it's not because terrans are OP, it's because 90%+ of protoss players are total dumbasses.
They either:
- Try to blind-rush you with 3 or 4 warp gates -> Enjoy the wall.
- Speed their way to void rays then cry when their "oh so original" 2-3 void rays attack gets blown to smithereens by 10 marines.
- Don't bother attacking ravens (who cares right ? They can 'only' render 9/10th of your army useless).
- Leave ghosts completely untouched, even when ghosts have the annoying tendency of walking in the front lines when grouped.
- Almost NEVER bother using force fields but instead cast defensive shield 4 times in a row... AT THE SAME TIME.
- Scanning towers ? What be this ? Lets just walk 6 DTs in his scanner range. He might have scan but i'm invis right ? I'm sure the giant pinging red dots won't alert him...
The fact that protoss is "easy" to steamroll as terran is not due to race advantage, it's due to the accumulation of gross errors by protoss players who just assume "I play the strongest race so whatever I do will guarantee a win".
Also, most protoss players have the baaad tendency of trying to play a la total annihilation. "Yeah let's just spam my biggest units and don't give a shit about strategy !"
Erm, why attack the Raven when the instant the battle starts, its already done its job? That's like focus-firing a High Templar after its already blown all its energy on Psi Storms at the start of the fight.
Its not like focus-firing a Mothership down before it gets its horrendously short-range Vortex off. PDDs get dropped instantly.
And I'm pretty sure Sensor Towers don't spot cloaked units.
On May 28 2010 03:33 Bibdy wrote: Erm, why attack the Raven when the instant the battle starts, its already done its job? That's like focus-firing a High Templar after its already blown all its energy on Psi Storms at the start of the fight.
And I'm pretty sure Sensor Towers don't spot cloaked units.
You bet your ass they do :D
Everyone always assumes otherwise tho ;-)
Top terran military analysts all agree that "Knowing is half the battle" and that early warning is one of the keys to victory. The sensor tower is a vital tool for long-range surveillance of enemy movement and the detection of stealthed aggressors.
this thread is retarded. User complains about imbalance and says he does 4gate pushes (he thinks the game would be balanced if he won every game with 4gate). soo funny. Blizzard even posted saying that they feel protoss is too strong against terran atm.
On May 28 2010 03:37 Clonze wrote: this thread is retarded. User complains about imbalance and says he does 4gate pushes (he thinks the game would be balanced if he won every game with 4gate). soo funny. Blizzard even posted saying that they feel protoss is too strong against terran atm.
Source?
And if you link that dev chat from a month ago, I'm going to slap you.
@bobcat Gee, 90% of protoss players are dumbasses? lol
Let me reply by saying this:
Imagine we are 10 patches ago.
I can come with a big list of things that terrans and zergs didn't do, that could make PvX harder for P. Yet, it doesn't make any point in regarding the issue of P being imbalanced.
If protoss make mistakes, so do terrans. Yet, it seems protoss are much more punished for them than terrans.
Until Terran starts winning tournaments regularly, you can't call them imbalanced.
And lol @ the dork who used the starcraft unit counter to see what army costs more. Clearly whoever spends more on their army should always win, right! Even if the other player micros better, uses perfect EMPs and has a perfect composition to beat your army! You should always be able to a-move your army into the opponent's and win!
On May 27 2010 22:46 araged wrote: Do you know what I find most helpful when someone start calling the imbalance? Suggest him to roll the other side and start owning his main race with this so called buletproof strategy. You'll soon discover new ways to play your main when more capable players show you the way.
this
go play 10 tvps and make that same unit composition that you are having trouble vs, you will learn its weaknesses and waht you can do to abuse it ;D
Zergs and Protoss can basically insta-respawn half their armies when they lose a fight somewhere while the terran has to re-train everything taking about 10x the time and you still have the balls to say we're not punished ?
I agree; Terrans need the ability to warp-gate. Then we'll be even.
On May 28 2010 03:33 Bibdy wrote: Erm, why attack the Raven when the instant the battle starts, its already done its job? That's like focus-firing a High Templar after its already blown all its energy on Psi Storms at the start of the fight.
And I'm pretty sure Sensor Towers don't spot cloaked units.
You bet your ass they do :D
Everyone always assumes otherwise tho ;-)
Top terran military analysts all agree that "Knowing is half the battle" and that early warning is one of the keys to victory. The sensor tower is a vital tool for long-range surveillance of enemy movement and the detection of stealthed aggressors.
On May 28 2010 03:44 Santriel wrote: Zergs and Protoss can basically insta-respawn half their armies when they lose a fight somewhere while the terran has to re-train everything taking about 10x the time and you still have the balls to say we're not punished ?
I agree; Terrans need the ability to warp-gate. Then we'll be even.
I dont know what gives you the impression that 3 warp gates can "insta respawn an army".
Not to mention the fact that gateways can only produce infantry. You can use reactors for helions and viking/medivac.
Its easier to macro as protoss, big deal, thats supposed to be one of our armies advantages.
Until Terran starts winning tournaments regularly, you can't call them imbalanced.
And lol @ the dork who used the starcraft unit counter to see what army costs more. Clearly whoever spends more on their army should always win, right! Even if the other player micros better, uses perfect EMPs and has a perfect composition to beat your army! You should always be able to a-move your army into the opponent's and win!
Exactly, in that TLO vs Nony video posted earlier, we see Nony pretty much attack-move and not accomplish much with his void rays during the battle... keeping them way too far away to attack.
10 Marines, 6 marauders and 1 ghost left, all but 1 immortal and 2 stalkers almost dead survived.
Pretty sure, right before he engaged, TLO finished upgrades, giving his forces 2/1, while nony didn't upgrade his ground forces at all.
Also, the game isn't about cost comparisons. 10 banelings can beat 40 marines, but the marines cost more. 1 Mutalisk can kill 10 marauders...See where I'm going?
Mashing up price comparisons isn't a good way to gauge a unit compositions strength, at all.
First, there are several posts that are saying, "Well Marine/Marauder/Medivac/Hellion/Tank/Thor/Viking/Ghost/Raven/Banshee/SCV/Battlecruiser/Reaper/OrbitalCommand/Everythingtheycanmake is beating my Sentry/Stalker/Zealot/Colossi mix!"
Of course it is! That is a SHITLOAD of units (and a superior army composition). The problem is getting there. How are you letting him get there? If he's just turtling up to that, contain him. There's no way he can make enough of each unit to effectively hold off your push early game if he's making all of that at once. Take map control and just out macro him. To make any kind of decent army like that, he'll need at least two bases, if not more.
Second, there's a post claiming NonY's battle in game 7 of the 3rd place HD Invitational match vs. TLO shows imbalance. Not only were the army costs fairly close, this post conveniently leaves out the fact that NonY completely rolls TLO with roughly 8 Void Rays about 5 seconds after that.
This leads me to my third, and main point. "His army beat my army in a straight up fight, it's imbalanced!" I can also throw in here, "It shouldn't be easier for the T player than the P player!"
Yea, it happens. That's just the nature of the game. Perfect balance where each race had a maxed 200/200 army that could take on each other is impossible while keeping racial identity. Also, keeping each race at the same difficulty level throughout is also impossible for the same reason. Just ask Zerg players. Their late game is atrocious, and they don't have a real army composition that can take on Terran OR Protoss head-on late game. Look at BW - everyone takes this as the pinnacle of balance, but lets take PvT for an example. First, it's pretty well known that it's damn near impossible for P to crack a set up 200/200 mech army. They had to win by doing stuff other than clashing out on an open battlefield - harass, take map control, etc... You don't just let your opponent build up. Second, we all know that there's skill level differences in BW, and it's the most balanced video game in modern times. T requires significantly more APM - this has been a well known fact for a very long time. P can more or less A-move everything (this has been put on T-shirts even) while T has to spend an extreme amount of APM setting up a proper mech army. There are plenty of other examples like this, but it comes to one main point.
Suck it up.
Yea, in a perfect world, each race would take the same amount of skill to play and every combo would have a different combo that has a perfect chance of beating it, but that's just not the way the world works.
Yes i am also a protoss player, i am not here to whine about OP or imbalance, I want those who have answers to help us figure out the strategy to counter Terran's mixture. What i do not like is that they can just build 1 ghost, 3 - 4 siege tanks, then just pass MnM and it helps out the terran in a battle so much, protoss needs critical numbers to fight, protoss doesnt have that kind of units, unless u talk about the mothership.
Until Terran starts winning tournaments regularly, you can't call them imbalanced.
And lol @ the dork who used the starcraft unit counter to see what army costs more. Clearly whoever spends more on their army should always win, right! Even if the other player micros better, uses perfect EMPs and has a perfect composition to beat your army! You should always be able to a-move your army into the opponent's and win!
First of all "dork" not having many terrans winning tournaments is not a proof that the matchup TvP is balanced.
Secondly, no, whoever spends more should not always win. Thats a straw man you just made up. NonY had zealots + immortals + sentries which are supposed counters to marines and marauders.
Thirdly, NonY did not micro worse than TLO. Watch the video more closely if you somehow doubt it.
Until Terran starts winning tournaments regularly, you can't call them imbalanced.
And lol @ the dork who used the starcraft unit counter to see what army costs more. Clearly whoever spends more on their army should always win, right! Even if the other player micros better, uses perfect EMPs and has a perfect composition to beat your army! You should always be able to a-move your army into the opponent's and win!
First of all "dork" not having many terrans winning tournaments is not a proof that the matchup TvP is balanced.
Secondly, no, whoever spends more should not always win. Thats a straw man you just made up. NonY had zealots + immortals + sentries which are supposed counters to marines and marauders.
Thirdly, NonY did not micro worse than TLO. Watch the video more closely if you somehow doubt it.
Finally, another typical straw man.
You're still leaving out the part where even though NonY lost (by a very narrow margin), he proceeded to completely roll TLO with something like 8 Void Rays mere seconds later.
Yea, his army lost, but he still won. How? He didn't just let TLO build up and then A-move his army into TLO's, he caught him off-guard while also having the economic advantage the entire game.
On May 28 2010 00:28 Duelist wrote: So i took the liberty of picking two great players, and a battle between a protoss and a terran army. And used the SC2 unit tester map to calculate costs of the units involved.
I chose TLO vs NonY of the HDH invitationals, the battle can be seen here. It will skipp right to the middle of the game, so if you didn't see the game don't watch it
10 Marines, 6 marauders and 1 ghost left, all but 1 immortal and 2 stalkers almost dead survived.
and your point is?
The fact that terran shit is so strong that nony lost a much much higher cost army while terran was left with most all of his units still alive?
did you even read the post?
Maybe you cant compare "unit mix a" with "unit mix b" on a cost vs cost basis? 20 Marauders vs 1 Void Ray perhaps? In the example above Nony had quite a few Zealots, but melee units need to reach their targets to deal damage ... until then they are a zero damage unit. Upgrades were NOT counted in the comparison above and StimPack has always been awesome for Terran infantry.
I did leave the void rays part out because having doubts whether a 3k ++ minerals and gas protoss army full of counters for the terran incoming 2k ++ army should lose would be ridiculous.
On May 28 2010 04:09 Duelist wrote: I did leave the void rays part out because having doubts whether a 3k ++ minerals and gas protoss army full of counters for the terran incoming 2k ++ army should lose would be ridiculous.
You're failing to see that Starcraft isn't a one dimensional game where armies straight up battle each other and whichever one wins decides the victor. There's a lot more depth to it than that.
Wow, these whine threads are getting more and more creative each time.
I have been playing terran since beta launched and the situation today is the same as the situation always was. I find that I can easily beat protoss players who aren't as good as I am and lose very badly to protoss players who are better than I am.
If you have a low win rate against terran you might just be bad at the matchup. Please post some replays so some actual constructive criticism can be levied. With all the anti-terran whining going on lately I am sure we can expect a huge terran nerf any way; that seems to be how blizzard operates, so just hold your breath in the mean time.
Seriously, if you ACTUALLY want help then post some replays. I don't see top level toss losing handily to top level terran in droves; there is something you can do, would you like to learn it?
I too am somewhat having trouble against PvT lately.
When I see a terran wall-in with rax (no tech lab) and start pumping marines, I am honestly unsure what to do.
After he's walled up, the only way for me to know is going robo. But that puts me in a disadvantage if he comes out with marine + tank, tanks are not the primary damage dealers here so immortals aren't that useful.
If I don't go robo and expect marine/tank, I get attacked by cloaked banshees.
All in all, against a good T I really don't know what to expect, and when I win it's usually because I lucked out on guessing his army composition.
On May 28 2010 04:11 Infiltrator wrote: I too am somewhat having trouble against PvT lately.
When I see a terran wall-in with rax (no tech lab) and start pumping marines, I am honestly unsure what to do.
After he's walled up, the only way for me to know is going robo. But that puts me in a disadvantage if he comes out with marine + tank, tanks are not the primary damage dealers here so immortals aren't that useful.
If I don't go robo and expect marine/tank, I get attacked by cloaked banshees.
All in all, against a good T I really don't know what to expect, and when I win it's usually because I lucked out on guessing his army composition.
Zealot/Sentry destroys Marines, so that negates any really early push with those. Next would be a possible Tank/Marine push, but by the time that comes out, you should be able to have 1) an Observer in his base and 2) Immortals (or maybe even a Colossi) on the way to easily hold it back. If he tries a Banshee push, you should still have an Observer in his base very quickly, and that's completely negated. Any kind of early hidden pushes like these can be easily countered and put him WAY behind economically and army-wise.
On May 28 2010 04:09 Duelist wrote: I did leave the void rays part out because having doubts whether a 3k ++ minerals and gas protoss army full of counters for the terran incoming 2k ++ army should lose would be ridiculous.
You're failing to see that Starcraft isn't a one dimensional game where armies straight up battle each other and whichever one wins decides the victor. There's a lot more depth to it than that.
Another straw man lol. I didn't say SC is one dimension, and im glad it isn't but in this specific case that's exactly what happened. lol Armies fought straight up, and the winner of the battle won the game.
On May 28 2010 04:09 Duelist wrote: I did leave the void rays part out because having doubts whether a 3k ++ minerals and gas protoss army full of counters for the terran incoming 2k ++ army should lose would be ridiculous.
You're failing to see that Starcraft isn't a one dimensional game where armies straight up battle each other and whichever one wins decides the victor. There's a lot more depth to it than that.
Another straw man lol. I didn't say SC is one dimension, and im glad it isn't but in this specific case that's exactly what happened. lol Armies fought straight up, and the winner of the battle won the game.
Your point is just straight up wrong. Just because one army can straight up beat the other doesn't mean he'll win the game.
On May 28 2010 03:29 Santriel wrote: As a terran player, I find the easiest race to counter is the toss.
Basically it's not because terrans are OP, it's because 90%+ of protoss players are total dumbasses.
They either:
- Try to blind-rush you with 3 or 4 warp gates -> Enjoy the wall.
- Speed their way to void rays then cry when their "oh so original" 2-3 void rays attack gets blown to smithereens by 10 marines.
- Don't bother attacking ravens (who cares right ? They can 'only' render 9/10th of your army useless).
- Leave ghosts completely untouched, even when ghosts have the annoying tendency of walking in the front lines when grouped.
- Almost NEVER bother using force fields but instead cast defensive shield 4 times in a row... AT THE SAME TIME.
- Scanning towers ? What be this ? Lets just walk 6 DTs in his scanner range. He might have scan but i'm invis right ? I'm sure the giant pinging red dots won't alert him...
The fact that protoss is "easy" to steamroll as terran is not due to race advantage, it's due to the accumulation of gross errors by protoss players who just assume "I play the strongest race so whatever I do will guarantee a win".
Also, most protoss players have the baaad tendency of trying to play a la total annihilation. "Yeah let's just spam my biggest units and don't give a shit about strategy !"
You beat most of the toss you come up against, and your conclusion is that you are just supah smert and they be a dumz.
You sir................ are brilliant!
It would seem that in your opinion all a protoss player has to do is know the exact composition of your forces, not harrass you with VR's or DT's. Build an army that perfectly counters yours, and then snipe all of your ghost and ravens before you get a chance to use them?
And of course we wouldnt be able to win even if we did all of this unless we catch your army moving to our base with its pants down. Yeah man, I cant tell you how many times that situation has come up for me.
Oh, and we shouldn't use guardian shield to cover our units from ranged attacks cuz terrans dont have a lot of those. That would be a bad decision.
On May 28 2010 04:09 Duelist wrote: I did leave the void rays part out because having doubts whether a 3k ++ minerals and gas protoss army full of counters for the terran incoming 2k ++ army should lose would be ridiculous.
You're failing to see that Starcraft isn't a one dimensional game where armies straight up battle each other and whichever one wins decides the victor. There's a lot more depth to it than that.
Another straw man lol. I didn't say SC is one dimension, and im glad it isn't but in this specific case that's exactly what happened. lol Armies fought straight up, and the winner of the battle won the game.
Your point is just straight up wrong. Just because one army can straight up beat the other doesn't mean he'll win the game. Also,
On May 28 2010 04:09 Duelist wrote: I did leave the void rays part out because having doubts whether a 3k ++ minerals and gas protoss army full of counters for the terran incoming 2k ++ army should lose would be ridiculous.
You're failing to see that Starcraft isn't a one dimensional game where armies straight up battle each other and whichever one wins decides the victor. There's a lot more depth to it than that.
Another straw man lol. I didn't say SC is one dimension, and im glad it isn't but in this specific case that's exactly what happened. lol Armies fought straight up, and the winner of the battle won the game.
Your point is just straight up wrong. Just because one army can straight up beat the other doesn't mean he'll win the game. Also,
chargelots +hts just tear apart bio army if you lose to pure bio ball you've got outmacroed or outmicroed badly
on a side note everytime i lose a game i rewatch replay and can easily list dozen of things i could do better, seriously whats wrong with people who flood forums everytime they get owned in game and create topics about imbalances, OP should post a replay then we could work something out till then this topic should be closed.
on a side note everytime i lose a game i rewatch replay and can easily list dozen of things i could do better, seriously whats wrong with people who run on forums and create topics about imbalances everytime they get owned in game.
That could be said for patches 1-13. We can generally pick out things we could have done better, but it doesn't prove anything about game balance. The inverse is true though losing a game doesn't mean the matchup it's imba too. But many people are complaining about the same things, that should say something perhaps.
When the imbalance starts getting smaller, people have to pay attention to these details. It won't be like when protoss was OP, as it was obvious, but now isn't anymore.
On May 28 2010 04:16 bobcat wrote: You sir................ are brilliant!
Thank you :-)
Actually, I like playing protoss too. Do you feel targeted ?
My point is that I know how terran operates (or needs to) and that many critical points are all too often overlooked by protoss players.
The most ridiculous example would be them NEVER bother to take down my sensor towers then wondering why they get insta-gibbed when they arrive... Probably they don't realize terrans are seeing them coming from the other side of the map...
A few of them outright call you a cheater for... "knowing my observer was there and how u know my warp prism was there omg maphax"...
Oh and... I do lose to some protoss players. Only the majority of them just A-clicks whatever army they have then ragequit when they get stomped...
I think ways to win v Terran is map specific. I have a diamond league Terran friend (I'm a high level platinum Protoss player) who helps me train to break a turtled terran position. Best ways to do this is to abuse backdoors early on maps which have them, before the terran can get too many tanks to defend all positions. Also drops work really well in addition to this, as you can really catch terran out of position with an immortal drop + warping stalkers from the warp prism. These harassment strategies don't win the game if the T player is good, but it allows you to harass important buildings by destroying a few production buildings, supply depots, possibly a command center if things are right. Usually I'll snipe the refineries with a fast 2 immortal drop to severely set back his tank production, and eventually just overwhelming him. Most turtle terran don't have a healthy mix of marines for whatever reason, so immortal drop are very effective. And even if they do, or eventually switch to them, you just have to be more selective about what you hit (turrets/refineries/add-ons tend to be high priority for me). Another technique I sometimes emply against super super turtles, is that I'll create a forward position aroudn the entrance of his main with lots of photon cannons.
on a side note everytime i lose a game i rewatch replay and can easily list dozen of things i could do better, seriously whats wrong with people who run on forums and create topics about imbalances everytime they get owned in game.
That could be said for patches 1-13. We can generally pick out things we could have done better, but it doesn't prove anything about game balance. The inverse is true though losing a game doesn't mean the matchup it's imba too. But many people are complaining about the same things, that should say something perhaps.
When the imbalance starts getting smaller, people have to pay attention to these details. It won't be like when protoss was OP, as it was obvious, but now isn't anymore.
Imbalance isn't just there it is created by those whiny kiddies. Nobody knows if patch 1 SC2 was less balanced that patch 13 SC2 and it propably wasn't given the circles the patching guys are walking in. Either way, if you lose you should first look at all the little details and try to find a way to improve and forget that imbalance even exists. Anyone who opens a thread having imbalance in it's title is an idiot until proven otherwise.
Is it not that Terran has the early/mid game advantage greatly, but then protoss DOMINATES late game? cause of storm / collosus? Just hold out until lategame best you can, dont bee too aggresive, but still try and apply pressure while you go for collo / High templar.
It's like zerg kinda. Zerg FE's, so P and T apply really early pressure (or deny expo completely) to slow Z down while they tech and/or build an army to push.
I'm embarrassed that I've never noticed this since I actually use sensor towers a lot. But, do sensor towers show you where DTs, Obs, or other cloaked units are? Does it show them only in the Fog of War but not once they are within sight distances?
I don't remember ever finding someone's observers with my sensor towers.
On May 28 2010 04:58 link0 wrote: Does it show them only in the Fog of War but not once they are within sight distances?
Both. IIRC invisible units will ping your minimap but won't show up off-fog (that might be a glitch/bug tho because sometimes they do for some unknown reason).
For instance if a zerg burrows his units, most of the time the tower will ping them even off-fog but will sometimes simply refuse to while observers ping a hellish red dot off and on fog...
Argue with the guy who coded the behavior of the tower o_O
On May 28 2010 04:16 bobcat wrote: You sir................ are brilliant!
Thank you :-)
Actually, I like playing protoss too. Do you feel targeted ?
My point is that I know how terran operates (or needs to) and that many critical points are all too often overlooked by protoss players.
The most ridiculous example would be them NEVER bother to take down my sensor towers then wondering why they get insta-gibbed when they arrive... Probably they don't realize terrans are seeing them coming from the other side of the map...
A few of them outright call you a cheater for... "knowing my observer was there and how u know my warp prism was there omg maphax"...
Oh and... I do lose to some protoss players. Only the majority of them just A-clicks whatever army they have then ragequit when they get stomped...
Fair enough.
I didnt feel targeted, I was simply pointing out that a protoss player shouldn't have to do everything right to beat a terran player with relatively similar micro/macro. However, based on what you just said, you are playing against gutter trash toss who dont know how a sensor tower works.
A-move is simple, but a fair amount of playing as toss is positioning your units correctly pre combat, being ready to use FF/GS appropriately and knowing how to stagger your army to still do decent damage while not being clustered for an emp.
I have seen people who do nothing but A-move and beat a terran army of comparable size, cost tech, upgrades, etc. I have also seen toss who place FF's correctly, compose their army correctly, scout their enemy, and choose when to engage and still get bent over the railing by a quick EMP and a stim pack from a terran who never scanner swept them or knew they were coming.
The frustration for a toss player is knowing early game that even if you have a bigger better army than the terran you still cant put pressure on them.
However, I suppose one of the early game frustrations for terran must be that they have to keep their force in their base or it will get zealsharked. So I guess a lot of toss are whining about not being able to put heavy pressure, while a lot of terrans have to deal with having no early game mobility.
I don't know about lack of mobility. The moment you get Conc Shells you can go wherever you want. Did we forget about the Marauder fests from yestermonth, already?
Im a nub, but is there not a possibility of P dominating T early game, and T dominating late game? Would explain why everyone is complaining, but about slightly different things.
On May 28 2010 05:19 Bibdy wrote: I don't know about lack of mobility. The moment you get Conc Shells you can go wherever you want. Did we forget about the Marauder fests from yestermonth, already?
Marauders aren't a problem. Pure marauders will get wrecked by just about any protoss player. The lack of mobility becomes important when the terran starts using tanks.
On May 28 2010 05:19 Bibdy wrote: I don't know about lack of mobility. The moment you get Conc Shells you can go wherever you want. Did we forget about the Marauder fests from yestermonth, already?
Marauders aren't a problem. Pure marauders will get wrecked by just about any protoss player. The lack of mobility becomes important when the terran starts using tanks.
toss needs to be more mobile... I just kind of sit there with seige tanks and toss keep walking into tank fire, and then zealots go in, rush into hellion fire, and even still, if they have enough stuff, they still take out a ton of my stuff.
besides, if you listen to day9 you can hear his strategy against a terran. get more stuff.
it's not all that imbalanced, it's just that if you keep letting terran get an army composition that can counter everything you're in a lot of trouble.
On May 28 2010 05:19 Bibdy wrote: I don't know about lack of mobility. The moment you get Conc Shells you can go wherever you want. Did we forget about the Marauder fests from yestermonth, already?
Marauders aren't a problem. Pure marauders will get wrecked by just about any protoss player. The lack of mobility becomes important when the terran starts using tanks.
Did I say pure Marauders?
Many top Terrans have already learned that there is little reason to build ANY marauders against Toss anymore. Marauders in a mixed army /w tanks aren't good at all because they can't kite and have crappy dps vs chargelots and sentries. Unless I scout a blink stalker strategy, I will skip marauders entirely in favor of marines, ghosts, tanks, and thors.
IMO is Forcefield the real factor in alll this "inbalance" It feels just wrong that this one ability changes the whole fight so freaking hard. I got the feeling that every P fight is just won if there are enough FF's...
See the fight mentioned way before in this thread Nony vs. TLO
On May 28 2010 05:19 Bibdy wrote: I don't know about lack of mobility. The moment you get Conc Shells you can go wherever you want. Did we forget about the Marauder fests from yestermonth, already?
Marauders aren't a problem. Pure marauders will get wrecked by just about any protoss player. The lack of mobility becomes important when the terran starts using tanks.
Did I say pure Marauders?
Many top Terrans have already learned that there is little reason to build ANY marauders against Toss anymore. Marauders in a mixed army /w tanks aren't good at all because they can't kite and have crappy dps vs chargelots and sentries. Unless I scout a blink stalker strategy, I will skip marauders entirely in favor of marines, ghosts, tanks, and thors.
On May 28 2010 04:37 Slunk wrote:Imbalance isn't just there it is created by those whiny kiddies.
No, balance and imbalance can be there. If no one ever complained and blizzard payed no attention to whinies, stats and replays since beta was released without patches, 90% of the players would be now protoss, and this game would be much less enjoyable. Even if now it was only 50.1%, we can still call it imbalance, though to some closed minds it might past unnoticed and call them idiots for that.
Either way, if you lose you should first look at all the little details and try to find a way to improve...
PvT is very hard as Terran players are getting smarter and have broken out of the mindset of "omg TvP imba ima lose."
However, I disagree with the OP about PvT being imbalanced. Protoss has to work much much harder than the Terran in order to win the game, but it's not imbalanced. You must have at least 1 base up on the Terran or be somehow ahead economically. Abuse the fact that Terran is immobile by out-expanding the Terran.
This matchup is turning very much into BW PvT where the Protoss simply cannot directly engage the Terran mid-late game army. Instead, you have to choke and starve out the Terran or to create engagements that are in your favor. For example, catching the Terran when his tanks are unseiged, etc...
It is much harder than BW PvT in that arbiters and carriers are no longer truly viable, and they played a very key role. However, good usage of phoenix in lifting the tanks, using obs to not just scout but to spot ghosts so you can feedback them, and careful positioning and flanking can still win you the game.
On May 28 2010 06:42 Ryuu314 wrote: However, I disagree with the OP about PvT being imbalanced. Protoss has to work much much harder than the Terran in order to win the game, but it's not imbalanced.
I could say the same for terrans and zergs when protoss was clearly OP. Working much harder to win a game, should rise suspiscion about how balanced the matchup is.
This matchup is turning very much into BW PvT where the Protoss simply cannot directly engage the Terran mid-late game army. Instead, you have to choke and starve out the Terran or to create engagements that are in your favor. For example, catching the Terran when his tanks are unseiged, etc...
[...]
and careful positioning and flanking can still win you the game.
Again I could quote this and tell terrans and zergs, to try to catch the colossus with their mighty 23 attack pre patch unprotected. Or to just run and not engage in battle when the protosses mothership uses planet cracker / time bomb - read, when the tanks are in siege mode -, or to try bait the protoss to falsely use their prepatch 2 radius psioni storm on one or two marines, so the rest of the army can safely know the HT are out of energy. "To create engagements in your favor" because 1on1 the protoss army would be better.
See, how i could say to be careful to the early beta protoss? It would be easily mistaken by a race harder to beat, and people would say for you to improve, shut up and don't whine, because you got "owned" by a better player when it was nothing but imbalanced, just like terran might be right now.
In PvT, i never allow the terran to simply macro up a critical mass of bioball +vikings + tanks. Depending on which strategy you choose:
Blink stalkers in back door before he can defend all positions with tanks.
Immortal drop, snipe depots and refineries. Whatever you do, do not let him get into the flow of macroing because if you let him, he'll get his "OP unbeatable OMG Hax combo of units".
Be creative when u play. I like to drop 2 immortals right next to a tank, his tank fires, and my immortals finish the tank with only their shields half broken. Chip away at his tanks while you build up a force depending on what you see in his base.
Doing these little annoying drops and harassments will set him off of his routine macro. Take advantage of being that annoying player that you've encountered before.
Terran balls with tanks are pretty hard to kill, and collosi go down fast to vikings or stimmed focus fire marauder. Protoss have either storm or collosi when they go up against terran endgame, both are pretty gas guzzling and can be hard countered easily with less resources from the terran.
On May 28 2010 06:42 Ryuu314 wrote: PvT is very hard as Terran players are getting smarter and have broken out of the mindset of "omg TvP imba ima lose."
However, I disagree with the OP about PvT being imbalanced. Protoss has to work much much harder than the Terran in order to win the game, but it's not imbalanced. You must have at least 1 base up on the Terran or be somehow ahead economically. Abuse the fact that Terran is immobile by out-expanding the Terran.
This matchup is turning very much into BW PvT where the Protoss simply cannot directly engage the Terran mid-late game army. Instead, you have to choke and starve out the Terran or to create engagements that are in your favor. For example, catching the Terran when his tanks are unseiged, etc...
It is much harder than BW PvT in that arbiters and carriers are no longer truly viable, and they played a very key role. However, good usage of phoenix in lifting the tanks, using obs to not just scout but to spot ghosts so you can feedback them, and careful positioning and flanking can still win you the game.
easier said than done because these maps are so cramped and small that a terran barely has to move an inch and he's knocking on your front door
I will have to agree with some others who have posted. You simply can't try to engage the T army head on because you will get demolished. You're going to have to do things like counter attacking, harassing, just being aggressive in general. You can't just expo+macro up like in BW and try to crush a timing push. However, I think with good storms and flanking you MIGHT be able to hold off an attack straight on
A solid terran army consists of: marine with possible marauders, tanks, possible hellions with upgrade to melt zealots, vikings, raven. Any observer and warp prism that comes near the army will evaporate from the vikings. Phoenix are rendered useless because they die instantly to marines/vikings (phoenix along with zealot/sentry are good for defending against an early 1/1/1 push but they're worse later in the game. Defending against this early push usually means you're ahead and should win the game, but this is a different scenario from what this topic is about). Do I think it's imbalanced? Slightly. I still feel siege tanks do way too much DPS (ever notice how insanely fast they shoot when not in siege mode?)
Replay PLZ! as a 1650 terran i have the exact opposite problem. If we go into late game i get owned. CauthonLuck talked about this as well and hes fucken good. replays please
I've not played enough PvT to comment meaningfully on the balance (I made first in my division in diamond, and did reasonably well in PvT with 1-2 gate stalker openings, but that doesn't really say anything) but I would suggest if there's a problem with pro-Terran imbalance, it's largely due to the small maps, and the potential threat of reaper or marauder play early which makes economic Protoss play risky.
On May 28 2010 06:42 Ryuu314 wrote: However, I disagree with the OP about PvT being imbalanced. Protoss has to work much much harder than the Terran in order to win the game, but it's not imbalanced.
I honestly don't get this statement - if protoss has to work much much harder than terran in order to win the game (which I also feel is the case), doesn't that mean terrans have a significant advantage in this matchup? As the protoss player has to give more effort and be more skilled than the terran opponent to win. A balanced game should mean evenly skilled players have close to 50/50 chances of winning. But if one side has to play a lot harder in order to win, that means its not properly balanced.
This is probably not a very feasible idea, but regardless, I would be incredibly interested in seeing high level pure random players setup matches in which they choose races and all take turns swapping races against each other - of course each random player has a stronger/weaker race, but if the sample is big enough, the results should be relatively fair i would think. In which I would be willing to put money that Terran will have the highest win rate % (imo of course! ^^)
Get a better unit composition? Besides who do you think won the series...
Mid-game, like in that game chargelots + HTs is stronger vs MMM IMO. I think where colossi/stalker shines is late gate when you can support them with mass sentry and abuse FF. But both unit comps have their pros and cons.
If that's the battle at 4:10, looks like protoss pulled the colossi back a bit too far resulting in them not shooting for a few crucial seconds in the middle of the fight.
- Nony's colossus didnt fight for half the fight (trying to kite vinkings ? you can't) - His colossus were front and took free hits from the vikings - Late guardian shield - FF didnt help there
And even if he would have lost it doesnt mean that the whole TvP is unbalanced. This battle may (since this looks easier for TLO) but it proves not much as a whole and Nony could have done better this battle.
P.S : TL.net strategy forum should not be about trolling and whining about imbalance but about finding strategies to go around what is trouble for a certain match-up. The whining forums can be found on blizzard's.
yet its fair when terran has to put turrets around his base to protect himself from dts, tell me why protoss users arent making storm drops anymore, terrans resort to all kind of harass tactics but lazy ass toss players expect to just exp mass army and 1a-tttt for the win (cant balame them, it works) ....
Well first off, look at the two different units. Protoss warp prism costs 200 minerals and 100 gas. Not to shabby, it has the ability to warp in gateway units and is slow as hell. Now the med vac costs 100 mins, 100 gas, and directly improves your teir 1/1.5 by at least 50%. Medvac wins.
Now second of all, look at the tech tree's. Terran has a a direct uninterupted tech scale. The protoss must go deep into one tech, research storm, build warp prisim, then drop. this is asking you to get your ass absolutly handed to you for the first 15 mins of the game. lets do a comp between the two. Both unit and tech total cost.
Medvac + rine stimmed = 1100, 425. 3 total buidling build times. (4 if tech included, was included in price.)
2 temp storm drop = 1300, 800. 5 total building build times. + research of storm time.
its extreamly simple. Not only will stim rines absolutly rape the min line (as well as storm will) but the gain the advantage of owning an expo out right.
And lastly. The part about protoss players mass army and 1a to victory is exactly where you go wrong. Terran at this stage of the game are the 1a end all race at the moment, And extreamly scary in a good players hand. With a linear tech line you can throw everything you want at the toss while he has to commit to one. (until expansions are saturated of course.) And another, pound for pound terran does win the Amove war. Its proven. You know it, we know it, SC2 beta KNOWS it. The tactics and micro invovled in a PvT matchup is heavly onesided to Amoving terrans (and stim button) and micro intensive spell blasting OMFGin protoss. Remeber you also have a unit(marauder) that directly counters ALL ground micro. That in there lies the problem. It is okay if one race is stronger at Amove than another. But taking away the lesser race's ability to micro those ground units(especialy at earlier stage) is ground breaking and devistating. A bad placed FF can hurt the toss just as much as the terran. Conc does not.
So good sir, please dont post rubbish in this forum misleading the newer players (i have a feeling you too are new as well) about IMBA's and the quality/attitude of the protoss community. Its bad enough we have all these lower lvl's QQing about race imbalance.
Nony got out-microed SO HARD in that first huge battle. He was just taking pot shots with his collssi while dealing ZERO damage back. If instead he just engaged fully with all his forces together, the battle could have gone much more differently.
NonY had too little Zealots to soak up the Marauder fire (and didn't have charge) and didn't target the Vikings with his Stalkers for entirely too long. Overall there was just little micro and not incredibly effective Force Fields on NonY's part.
Maybe if you watch the game a bit earlier? Nony got greedy on his first push IMO. He should have gotten an observer inside terrans base or outside and just poke in before his attack. If he had he would have seen the starport with reactor and the marauders. 3 stalkers and 5 zealots vs marine marauder just wasn't smart, sure it might have worked if it werent for the vikings. But if he scouted first IMO he should have run home to base again. He walks colossus up cliff without support from his ground so the vikings can almost snipe one colossus completely of before his ground even gets into the terran base, once there marauders own stalkers ofc and nony is lucky getting some kills. That attack nony lost so much. Those 2 extra colossus in that battle you described I think would tip the battle in nonys favor.
On May 28 2010 05:51 Talia wrote: IMO is Forcefield the real factor in alll this "inbalance" It feels just wrong that this one ability changes the whole fight so freaking hard. I got the feeling that every P fight is just won if there are enough FF's...
See the fight mentioned way before in this thread Nony vs. TLO
Nony had no Forcefield and lost an pretty even battle
It's similar to Psi Storm in BW. Back then, if Protoss didn't have Psi Storm, they would lose. Period. It was the "great equalizer" because without it they'd get completely and utterly rolled.
This time around, it seems like FF is that "great equalizer".
How to play PvT well: 1) be patient, PvT fights are about positioning. 2) you should always have map control after very early game. 3) If you see Terran exp and bunker, take another expo 4) Scout well and deny drops 5) sentry/speedlot beats small (<60food) infantry armies. Forcefield behind his army. 6) Colossus/high templars kills everything else. 7) Don't whine if u grouped your HT's together and had 8 of them emp'd by one ghost. You played poorly.
The above is wise! As a T player just beginning to understand TVP, the most difficulty I have is a P that uses 2 and 5 to their advantage in particular. As T I would try pressure P with some form of proxy or maurader heavy rush but the aim was never to kill P as I know I cannot. If T presses too hard, a good P can quickly turn the tide, and once it's zeals + stalkers vs mauraders, my mauraders will simply die (zeals absorbing hits whilst stalkers getting free hits) So the early pressure, like tvz is to force zerglings instead of drones, and in tvP it is to snipe the first couple zeals/stalkers so that P reaches critical mass later. Why? because P will always reach critical mass before T, but to delay P's critical mass timing T is able to expand and hold with fresh reinforcements or tech rather than being run over by a perfect composition mid-game toss push (zeal/sentry/immortal/stalker).
How about actually attack with his full army? He moves up with colossi, they move back, and the rest of Nony's army engages. Colossi keep running back and just sit back while the rest of his army is being attacked; still be attacked by vikings. Attacks with his colossi finally, but the rest of his army is pretty much dead so the marauders focus the colossi down easily.
On May 28 2010 06:42 Ryuu314 wrote: Protoss has to work much much harder than the Terran in order to win the game, but it's not imbalanced.
If one race has to work much harder or be a better player than it is indeed imbalanced.
Gonna assume he's trolling because thats like the definition of imbalance..
if 2 equal players go head to head it shouldnt end aerly just because 1 player is protoss and his race is weaker, thats textbook imbalanced.
nah i don't think that's a very accurate definition of balance, at least the way i look at it. balance is when 2 races/classes/characters or whatever are evenly matched when played at the highest level.
if the guy was saying that the protoss always has to be at a much higher skill level than his opponent to win, then it's imbalanced, but i think he meant that basic, easy to execute terran strats demand that the protoss be at a high skill level if they want to counter them. that's not imbalanced as long as a highly skilled protoss against a highly skilled terran (doing that little extra) is a fair fight.
you can't make a game that's perfectly balanced at every skill level.
There was a featured article about Brood War, although I don't remember its exact location (I apologize as I am new to the TL community). It basically argued that Brood War's seeming "balance" was not that that the races were perfectly balanced in every match up and every map, but rather that each race had strategies that were so robust as to completely change the game the the matter of a few seconds. A single wellplaced psi storm can take out a few hotkeys of mutas in 3 seconds, or a group of banelings can be half a second too early or too late to completely decimate an army, or seige tanks can be caught in perfect placement or bad positioning against incoming collosi. I once misclicked 3 pages of mutalisks on the ground instead of a thor, and they all converged into one point, and got owned by 3 thors when all 3 pages tried to stack and got obliterated by the Thor's splash damage. My point on the balance issue is not that every strategy is balanced. If anything, it's the opposite of balanced in that stategies such as terran turtling are so so good at one function, and so so bad at every other function that it (and almost every other strategy) tends to either succeed convincingly, or fail miserably). Sometimes it takes us as players out of our comfort zone to explore strategies which are effective against a play style (Even WhiteRa admitted to not really liking collossi, but was forced to use them vs. IdrA in order to win the HDH), and while there's nothing wrong with wondering if there may be some balance issues, it's totally the wrong focus. There are a few posts that do explore ways to beat a certain terran strategy, perhaps the focus should be the strengths and weaknesses of the strategies as opposed to pointing out few instances where that split second factor the article spoke about can swing a battle one way or the other based on the timing of just a few seconds.
I'll explain what NonY did, because many seem not to understand.
1) He saw the vikings firing his colossus, so he sent them back so he could do 2) 2) He forcefield the ground troops so he can safely retreat a bit so his stalkers aren't receiving damage from the ground army and can FF the vikings. If you notice as soon as the forcefields went down, the stalkers started doing exactly that.
On May 28 2010 03:33 Bibdy wrote: Erm, why attack the Raven when the instant the battle starts, its already done its job? That's like focus-firing a High Templar after its already blown all its energy on Psi Storms at the start of the fight.
And I'm pretty sure Sensor Towers don't spot cloaked units.
You bet your ass they do :D
Everyone always assumes otherwise tho ;-)
Top terran military analysts all agree that "Knowing is half the battle" and that early warning is one of the keys to victory. The sensor tower is a vital tool for long-range surveillance of enemy movement and the detection of stealthed aggressors.
When a 2100 plat player asks for help and gets so much poor advice I really wish there was a rule in strategy section to include your highest ELO and the league one plays in the post.
On May 27 2010 23:19 Inori wrote: I somewhat agree with topic starter and I also think that these replay requests are useless, because you can always find a flaw in players game and say "see, that's why you lost, terrans are okay!!" unless said player is like top pro level, which he's not. Problem is, terrans also do these mistakes and still come out with easy wins, but everybody will skip that little fact.
It's funny how my stats are like 65-70% vs Prot and Zerg and 20% vs Terran. Must be terran skills yo.
And yes I've played Terran a lot of times in 2v2 and 1v1 customs (both against diamond level players), I own my main race with said strats even without knowing BOs well.
See, when you post a replay, you can notice the mistakes that both Protoss and Terran makes and try to rule which ones were worse. Without the replay, there is only your words. Replay evidence > words. Stating imbalance is serious business. Put some effort into it.
Try playing T more and see if its really as imba as you think, psi storm is my worst nightmare, and mass void rays can be a head ache too. The pay off for some well placed storms plus you can make a archon seems fair exchange some well placed emps. They are also fairly even on tec. If you think about the battles maybe the t is better at micro then the P? maybe the P is just A + clicking? emp is sent off before storm, has his tanks sieged and in position before stalkers blinked to there? vikings are sent to snipe colosi. Like could a phoenix pick up some tanks. Bah you could think forever on how the battle could play out, and how the P or T could of used a spell before the other to turn the battle.
Also could carrying the HT`s in a warp prism protect them from emp? 0_o the possibilites
in the nony vs tlo video you can clearly see that nony did a major mistake: overmicro. he felt that he had bad positioning to deal with the vikings. so he blocked off the ground units and pulled the vikings into his stalkers. that was theorethically very intelligent and the execution was fast. but with this maneuver, he lost all the burst damage from the colossi so his gatemix died.
what he should have done? I dont know. but I think he should have let the colossi untouched and just fokus on tlo's ground army with everything. its better to have gatemix vs 2vikings, than 2 colossi vs marauder army...
we stated, that a terran army consisting out of marines, ravens, tanks, marauders, ghosts, and perhaps some vikings and medivacs, is pretty unbeatable for toss, while the tanks are in siege. this is where most of the users here agree. but this army lacks the mobility of toss.
so the only possible way of defeating a terran army, is to wait for them to come out and catch them off guard with mass zealots and storms, which are the only 2 viable things vs. terran, cause stalkers get raped by everything + pdd. if the terran doesnt attack but tries to secure further expansions, the toss needs to overexpand him and harrass him. dts and prisms to a good job. i wouldnt build stalkers unleess i had to defend vs. air, cause the just suck in every fight. therefore you need to scout constantly and have visions over the whole map, with pylons, observors or haluzinated phoenixes. this is getting pretty hard for those sensor towers are just seeing every incoming threat. but still possible and necessary. so far, if you survive any pushes as toss, youre in pretty good shape. just having 4 expos and 30 gates pretty much kills every terran. the problem i see is, that if you look at the maps, they are just oooh sooo small. take lt for example. if youre spawning close, then the terran can just walk out of his base and siege his tanks up with no hope for the toss. on cross, its just, that those two rock-things at the watchtower basically make it all tight. i think as soon as the terrans just start sieging slowly in direction of your base it´ll get even harder for toss.
another problem is this totally awesome airforce of terran. cause pdd + banshee >>>> every ground army toss can build up
Harass is something all races can do, and it should be done despite everything else. But a race winning another should not depend only on harass. If it does, maybe the matchup is not fair. Unless they give the race that is dependent on harass some really good, and by good i mean better than the other race, harassment options, since its dependent on that, or then it should also be possible to win 1on1 army vs army.
As far as i see, protoss has many harassing options, but so does terran. So you can't tell the protoss he has to harass to win. What if we inverted the roles, and i said the terran had to harass the protoss in order to win. Wouldn't that suddenly feel like i was putting chains in the terran and the protoss coming to the surface to breathe?
My conclusion is that no one can say that x race winning is dependent on their harassament, when their harassment tools are no better than the other races, that should infact raise suspcion that something is wrong with matchup balance. If blink was cheaper/faster, same for dark shrine and warp prism, phoenixs produced faster, maybe protoss could really have a good time winning only by harassment and avoiding big fights, since they would lose them, but it doesn't seem protoss's harass is that much better than the terran's, but please do correct me if i'm wrong.
@Duelist whats your point then? are you saying that the match up is imbalanced? well dont get me wrong, i also think, that pvt is pretty hard, but for other reasons. imo a immobile -rather standing- army needs to be stronger then a mobile one. though the difference really seems toooo big. i mean in bw if a toss made a good flank + good storms + perhaps stasis and lotdrops, then he wouldnt win vs. a 200 pop army, but at least kill SOMETHING despite the situation as it is in sc2. your zealots are dead before they even reach the army. another point that differs the old pvt from the new is the pure army composition itself. in good old bw. you built tanks and some vultures. OUT. in sc2 you build a bio ball with a decent mech support. which makes the army as itself way more mobile, but by far not weaker.
btw. it was the same in bw. if you could not just attack an expansion of the terran, then you had to "harass" aka recall, reaver/ht drop, carriers. in sc2 its the same. for you cant just attack an expansion or the main with the terran blop standing in front of it sieged up with sensor and missile towers, you just have to warp some units via prism in or blink some stalkers in.
I'm just stating what i see. Zergs complaining about Terran mech, Protoss complaining about Terran MMM + emp. I also see many people saying protoss should "look for favorable positions to engage" and "harass terrans eco", and to "avoid big confrontations vs the terran army", seems like teaching an underdog how to try to cheat his way into a win.
The protoss army is not that mobile compared to the terran, is it? Stalker and colossus are very mobile, but apart from that is there realy much more mobility from the protoss ground part? It takes 2 seconds ? for a tank to put itself on siege mode. If a terran goes imoble (read siege mode) it's because its convenient. Protoss can take advantage of that if the terran wants and lets them.
From what i see, it seems terran is the strongest race atm. I rarely see a terran complaining about OP of the other two races, but the inverse i see a lot. Not saying it proves anything, but it should be worth looking into.
On May 29 2010 03:18 Duelist wrote: I'm just stating what i see. Zergs complaining about Terran mech, Protoss complaining about Terran MMM + emp. I also see many people saying protoss should "look for favorable positions to engage" and "harass terrans eco", and to "avoid big confrontations vs the terran army", seems like teaching an underdog how to try to cheat his way into a win.
The protoss army is not that mobile compared to the terran, is it? Stalker and colossus are very mobile, but apart from that is there realy much more mobility from the protoss ground part? It takes 2 seconds ? for a tank to put itself on siege mode. If a terran goes imoble (read siege mode) it's because its convenient. Protoss can take advantage of that if the terran wants and lets them.
From what i see, it seems terran is the strongest race atm. I rarely see a terran complaining about OP of the other two races, but the inverse i see a lot. Not saying it proves anything, but it should be worth looking into.
Maybe because most P only know how to do a 4 gate push right into the tank line? Something that helps some of these cries is the way maps are made. Some (if not all) are a little small and the chokes favor a turtle terran.
On the other hand I stand by my first statement, dont 4gate push every game and play dead as soon as it fails. Try new things. And this is not teaching an underdog how to cheat his way into a win, its outsmarting your opponent. If the terran is sieged and standing still in a single place flank or go around and kill his base. The main army cant be everywhere (again this would work better with larger or less choke oriented maps I know). Keep expanding and making units, they go bio take colussus they go mech try using immortals, they are made to counter tanks, use some lots to soak up damage. Im not a P player so Im not that knowledgeable in P tactics but in my opinion the MU its not imbalanced.
As far as i see, protoss has many harassing options, but so does terran. So you can't tell the protoss he has to harass to win. What if we inverted the roles, and i said the terran had to harass the protoss in order to win. Wouldn't that suddenly feel like i was putting chains in the terran and the protoss coming to the surface to breathe?
.
The issue isn't that P harass is better that T, it's that IF YOU ARE PLAYING A TURTLING TERRAN WHO IS MASSING YOU HAVE TO HARASS AND TAKE THE MAP. There is an early game period where maurader/marine with possibly 1 tank is very strong versus P, and after that is the timing where if P didn't tech hard or FE he has a stronger standing army than T, you need to use this timing to either do some damage or expand.
If you don't like how you have to play to beat a certain style you should either come up with a new counter or (more likely) quit playing SC 2... did you complain in BW that on big 4 player maps PvZ that you had to forge fast expand to keep up? Are you equally not OK with having to attack until you're good and ready? Is it too much to ask that when you're playing a race that can't turtle that you have to do some economic damage or macro harder than your opponent??
Did you ever watch any Flash TvPs from a few years back? Sometimes he harasses with vultures, sometimes it's effective, but often he did little to no damage and still steam-rolled his opponents if they didn't manage to do something to slow/prevent his 2/1 timing push. IMBA? No, just P not knowing what to do.
On May 29 2010 00:17 Duelist wrote: Harass is something all races can do, and it should be done despite everything else. But a race winning another should not depend only on harass. If it does, maybe the matchup is not fair. Unless they give the race that is dependent on harass some really good, and by good i mean better than the other race, harassment options, since its dependent on that, or then it should also be possible to win 1on1 army vs army.
As far as i see, protoss has many harassing options, but so does terran. So you can't tell the protoss he has to harass to win. What if we inverted the roles, and i said the terran had to harass the protoss in order to win. Wouldn't that suddenly feel like i was putting chains in the terran and the protoss coming to the surface to breathe?
My conclusion is that no one can say that x race winning is dependent on their harassament, when their harassment tools are no better than the other races, that should infact raise suspcion that something is wrong with matchup balance. If blink was cheaper/faster, same for dark shrine and warp prism, phoenixs produced faster, maybe protoss could really have a good time winning only by harassment and avoiding big fights, since they would lose them, but it doesn't seem protoss's harass is that much better than the terran's, but please do correct me if i'm wrong.
if terran isn't turtling, if they try to move out and attack straight on, they will lose if their army isn't much bigger. terran doesn't have the ability to move out and take map control midgame, because until they hit some huge mass, the protoss army is stronger, can split the terran army with forcefields, and is faster than the terran bioball except for the units hit by concussive shells. So don't tell me that the protoss army shouldn't have to harrass, because terran can't even move out onto the map without having a good chance of being decimated. If toss has any kind of scouting they can tell when the terran ball is trying to move out, when they unsiege their tanks, and when to move in. Dark shrine is fine, since it is an instant win if terran doesn't have enough detection, and it's not like dark templar are really weak anyways. have you seen nony's phoenix play? they do not need to be buffed. I've never actually seen a toss player use a warp prism so I can't say how good they are, but since they enable drops and in base production, I can't imagine they are underpowered. blink is a ridiculous spell that can completely change a fight if used properly, and is still being used and used well.
if terran had to harrass in order to win, then I would hope that it's army was at least somewhat more mobile. which it's really not atm.
Don't forget Terrans complaining about TvT being too static. I think the improved tank AI is causing the balance issues personally, you could make terran positions pretty much unapproachable in BW too but it required a larger critical mass of tanks.
sorry, but it´s just so lame to say, that protosses are dumb and are only 4 gating. there are many tosses trying to play a long and worn out macro game but its hard.
and though lacking any arguments Duelist still made a point that it´s being quite strange, that everyones whining bout mech.
i just played a game vs terran on kulas
it´s pretty onesided, but it shows a straight terran 1/1/1 build, that got raped pretty hard.
the game is far from perfect, but i think, it shows how to play as p. scouting, expanding, massing zeals and templars. throwing his army to waste just to warp it in the other moment.
btw. fast banshee is no prob, cause it gets scouted by the phoenix and a robo (and a forge) can be set up quite in time
First off immortals are only good against marauders while they have their shield. EMP takes it out instantly making them take extra damage from marauders. Marauders will also do extra damage to the stalkers since they are an armored unit. The ghosts do extra damage to light units aka sentries and combine that with the emp removing guardian shield and force field the sentries go down. I don't remember in NonY had charge or not since i didnt even feel like watching the replay again but the ghosts and marines easily take out the zealots. TLO's army was formed specifically to deal with NonY's army. With that being said what could NonY have used instead? Colossi of course! There is no mech in that army at all just infantry units who are just waiting to be abused by that 9 range infantry melting ray. This match up has nothing to do with terran being over powered just extremely good play by TLO.
On May 28 2010 03:33 Bibdy wrote: Erm, why attack the Raven when the instant the battle starts, its already done its job? That's like focus-firing a High Templar after its already blown all its energy on Psi Storms at the start of the fight.
And I'm pretty sure Sensor Towers don't spot cloaked units.
You bet your ass they do :D
Everyone always assumes otherwise tho ;-)
Top terran military analysts all agree that "Knowing is half the battle" and that early warning is one of the keys to victory. The sensor tower is a vital tool for long-range surveillance of enemy movement and the detection of stealthed aggressors.
yeah this is what every toss should do play viodray/collossi/templar i havent watched the replay but, assuming he already had a robotics facility the bay would cost 200/200, the upgrade costs 200/200 and a collossus costs 300/200 thats 700/600 for only 1 fucking collossus this means cutting for example 5 stalkers and all 3 sentries again its just for only 1 fucking collussus
and you just cant open with voidray and a collossus tech you brain
Maybe because most P only know how to do a 4 gate push right into the tank line? Something that helps some of these cries is the way maps are made. Some (if not all) are a little small and the choques favor a turtle terran.
On the other hand I stand by my first statement, dont 4gate push every game and play dead as soon as it fails. Try new things. And this is not teaching an underdog how to cheat his way into a win, its outsmarting your opponent. If the terran is sieged and standing still in a single place flank or go around and kill his base. The main army cant be everywhere (again this would work better with larger or less choke oriented maps I know). Keep expanding and making units, they go bio take colussus they go mech try using immortals, they are made to counter tanks, use some lots to soak up damage. Im not a P player so Im not that knowledgeable in P tactics but in my opinion the MU its not imbalanced.
Yeah, some of the maps can make PvT a complete pain in the ass. Steppes of War, for example, basically gives the terran a free third. The map is really small with even smaller chokepoints all over the place, making flanking terran positions impossible at times. Incineration zone, particularly with that narrow avenue through the middle of the map, has the same problems.
On May 29 2010 03:18 Duelist wrote: I'm just stating what i see. Zergs complaining about Terran mech, Protoss complaining about Terran MMM + emp. I also see many people saying protoss should "look for favorable positions to engage" and "harass terrans eco", and to "avoid big confrontations vs the terran army", seems like teaching an underdog how to try to cheat his way into a win.
The protoss army is not that mobile compared to the terran, is it? Stalker and colossus are very mobile, but apart from that is there realy much more mobility from the protoss ground part? It takes 2 seconds ? for a tank to put itself on siege mode. If a terran goes imoble (read siege mode) it's because its convenient. Protoss can take advantage of that if the terran wants and lets them.
From what i see, it seems terran is the strongest race atm. I rarely see a terran complaining about OP of the other two races, but the inverse i see a lot. Not saying it proves anything, but it should be worth looking into.
Maybe because most P only know how to do a 4 gate push right into the tank line? Something that helps some of these cries is the way maps are made. Some (if not all) are a little small and the chokes favor a turtle terran.
On the other hand I stand by my first statement, dont 4gate push every game and play dead as soon as it fails. Try new things. And this is not teaching an underdog how to cheat his way into a win, its outsmarting your opponent. If the terran is sieged and standing still in a single place flank or go around and kill his base. The main army cant be everywhere (again this would work better with larger or less choke oriented maps I know). Keep expanding and making units, they go bio take colussus they go mech try using immortals, they are made to counter tanks, use some lots to soak up damage. Im not a P player so Im not that knowledgeable in P tactics but in my opinion the MU its not imbalanced.
Oh hey, another thinly-veiled "Protoss are clearly just bad players" post.
You think we DON'T go running around with Void Rays to snipe buildings? That we DON'T do Immortal drops while they're sitting siege tanks in front of our base? That we DON'T try teching to different units when we see certain Terran unit compositions? That we DON'T try and outmacro them when they just camp on their asses?
Yeah, we always just rush head-first at a Siege Tank line with Gateway units and then leap on the forums complaining how unbalanced PvT is. Makes total sense...
The quality of posts on this forum is almost as bad as the official ones sometimes.
Terran players posting that there isn't a balancing issue and saying that all protoss players are bad and dont know how to play should look back a few to when they were complaining about psi storm, and zealot rushes, and void rays, and stalkers actually having a chance against marauders.
Scissors is never going to say they have an unfair advantage against all of the paper "whiners".
It is unfair of you to sit back and turtle every game not having to harrass your opponent at all and then tell them that they shouldn't try to attack you but rather they should try to dominate the enitre map to keep you from winning?
Just fyi, building an acutual unit to scout your opponent and then micro managing that unit for a few seconds and then micro managing a harass and re-scouting to see if it's the proper time for you to expand or build up an army or if you should build a warp prism and try to backdoor them etc.
Doing all of that while macro managing your base to match the production of a terran player who just.
A. queues his units to build.
B. uses OC to scanner sweep your base and see what your unit composition is, whether or not you've expanded and what tech you have.
You're saying that for a toss player to win, they need to out smart you, out micro you, and perform equal macro while you just sit in your base and build up a timed push?
I'm sorry I thought terrans were turtles and toss were boomers.
On May 29 2010 03:18 Duelist wrote: I'm just stating what i see. Zergs complaining about Terran mech, Protoss complaining about Terran MMM + emp. I also see many people saying protoss should "look for favorable positions to engage" and "harass terrans eco", and to "avoid big confrontations vs the terran army", seems like teaching an underdog how to try to cheat his way into a win.
The protoss army is not that mobile compared to the terran, is it? Stalker and colossus are very mobile, but apart from that is there realy much more mobility from the protoss ground part? It takes 2 seconds ? for a tank to put itself on siege mode. If a terran goes imoble (read siege mode) it's because its convenient. Protoss can take advantage of that if the terran wants and lets them.
From what i see, it seems terran is the strongest race atm. I rarely see a terran complaining about OP of the other two races, but the inverse i see a lot. Not saying it proves anything, but it should be worth looking into.
Maybe because most P only know how to do a 4 gate push right into the tank line? Something that helps some of these cries is the way maps are made. Some (if not all) are a little small and the chokes favor a turtle terran.
On the other hand I stand by my first statement, dont 4gate push every game and play dead as soon as it fails. Try new things. And this is not teaching an underdog how to cheat his way into a win, its outsmarting your opponent. If the terran is sieged and standing still in a single place flank or go around and kill his base. The main army cant be everywhere (again this would work better with larger or less choke oriented maps I know). Keep expanding and making units, they go bio take colussus they go mech try using immortals, they are made to counter tanks, use some lots to soak up damage. Im not a P player so Im not that knowledgeable in P tactics but in my opinion the MU its not imbalanced.
Oh hey, another thinly-veiled "Protoss are clearly just bad players" post.
You think we DON'T go running around with Void Rays to snipe buildings? That we DON'T do Immortal drops while they're sitting siege tanks in front of our base? That we DON'T try teching to different units when we see certain Terran unit compositions? That we DON'T try and outmacro them when they just camp on their asses?
Yeah, we always just rush head-first at a Siege Tank line with Gateway units and then leap on the forums complaining how unbalanced PvT is. Makes total sense...
The quality of posts on this forum is almost as bad as the official ones sometimes.
Let's see a replay of you doing all of these things and still losing, I'm not baiting I'm serious, I'd like to see it.
update: just watched the rep and it´s just a typical example of protoss being abel to win, but only with way higher tech and way more minerals and gas invested in army (that still gets blown up) and better play overall.
watch this replay. it will show 1) tanks blow up everything 2) the terran had enough chances to win, but just sat back in his base waiting for better weather 3) even without ghosts, terran is scary 4) look at the gas; terran can go mmmg+ tank 5) and even if your army is spreaded, you still cant beat a terran of equal food i´d say the terran played like crap. no scouting and no ghosts (wtf?)
the scary thing bout these 2 games is, that even with the terran performing like crap, he still is a sirious danger to the toss. this really leads me to the conclusion, that at equal skill levels, terran wins. and you really seem to need tons of skill ahead your opponent, to actually win a game.
You're saying that for a toss player to win, they need to out smart you, out micro you, and perform equal macro while you just sit in your base and build up a timed push?
Sort of. It's not really outsmarting... how complicated it is it to harass while you macro? Or have an obs in front of his base so you can attack from 2 sides when he moves out? If you take a third and don't over-commit, sniping units while losing an equal value of units is to your advantage. If you want to sit on 2 base while T sits on 2 base you will lose. Your advantage is map control mid-game, use it or die.
But yes, the fact of the matter is at lower levels of play, T can sit in his base and hit S S D D G A S S V and win unless the Protoss (GOD FORBID) keeps the pressure on and expands more.
On May 29 2010 03:18 Duelist wrote: I'm just stating what i see. Zergs complaining about Terran mech, Protoss complaining about Terran MMM + emp. I also see many people saying protoss should "look for favorable positions to engage" and "harass terrans eco", and to "avoid big confrontations vs the terran army", seems like teaching an underdog how to try to cheat his way into a win.
The protoss army is not that mobile compared to the terran, is it? Stalker and colossus are very mobile, but apart from that is there realy much more mobility from the protoss ground part? It takes 2 seconds ? for a tank to put itself on siege mode. If a terran goes imoble (read siege mode) it's because its convenient. Protoss can take advantage of that if the terran wants and lets them.
From what i see, it seems terran is the strongest race atm. I rarely see a terran complaining about OP of the other two races, but the inverse i see a lot. Not saying it proves anything, but it should be worth looking into.
Maybe because most P only know how to do a 4 gate push right into the tank line? Something that helps some of these cries is the way maps are made. Some (if not all) are a little small and the chokes favor a turtle terran.
On the other hand I stand by my first statement, dont 4gate push every game and play dead as soon as it fails. Try new things. And this is not teaching an underdog how to cheat his way into a win, its outsmarting your opponent. If the terran is sieged and standing still in a single place flank or go around and kill his base. The main army cant be everywhere (again this would work better with larger or less choke oriented maps I know). Keep expanding and making units, they go bio take colussus they go mech try using immortals, they are made to counter tanks, use some lots to soak up damage. Im not a P player so Im not that knowledgeable in P tactics but in my opinion the MU its not imbalanced.
Oh hey, another thinly-veiled "Protoss are clearly just bad players" post.
You think we DON'T go running around with Void Rays to snipe buildings? That we DON'T do Immortal drops while they're sitting siege tanks in front of our base? That we DON'T try teching to different units when we see certain Terran unit compositions? That we DON'T try and outmacro them when they just camp on their asses?
Yeah, we always just rush head-first at a Siege Tank line with Gateway units and then leap on the forums complaining how unbalanced PvT is. Makes total sense...
The quality of posts on this forum is almost as bad as the official ones sometimes.
Let's see a replay of you doing all of these things and still losing, I'm not baiting I'm serious, I'd like to see it.
Would it be worth it? There's probably a billion things, of varying magnitudes, we could both point out that I did wrong to push the argument away from PvT imbalance. Replay-based arguments are just as permeable as theory-based ones.
I can certainly find replays when I get home where I outplayed the crap out of the Terran, yet barely eeked out a win, though.
On May 29 2010 06:03 ensis wrote: update: just watched the rep and it´s just a typical example of protoss being abel to win, but only with way higher tech and way more minerals and gas invested in army (that still gets blown up) and better play overall.
watch this replay. it will show 1) tanks blow up everything 2) the terran had enough chances to win, but just sat back in his base waiting for better weather 3) even without ghosts, terran is scary 4) look at the gas; terran can go mmmg+ tank 5) and even if your army is spreaded, you still cant beat a terran of equal food i´d say the terran played like crap. no scouting and no ghosts (wtf?)
the scary thing bout these 2 games is, that even with the terran performing like crap, he still is a sirious danger to the toss. this really leads me to the conclusion, that at equal skill levels, terran wins. and you really seem to need tons of skill ahead your opponent, to actually win a game.
huk played horribly in that game, 2-3 hts would do more dmg than his whole army, you need ht/colo (i feel colo is worse option in this particular MU) to kill huge ball of bio army (similar to pvz in sc bw) there will be more topics like this till people realize that
ps. from terran perspective i can say that theres nothing more scary than toss with few exps and storm tech.
nah already said huk played like a dozen shitloads, but it was just for comparison purpose on armies. and yes, none doubts that spreaded hts on an open field just rape a bio ball, no matter what. but the thing´s bout tanks. tanks cant be stormed and rape the shit out of every incoming unit.
and thats all the rep should prove.
i mean after emp, every unit dies from 2 shots, if not from 1 plus splashdamage. the only exception is immortals, but they have a range of 5 and tanks of 13. by the time those overdimensionized dragoons reach your tanks, i could build a 200 sup carrier army plus mothership and 3.3.3 upgrades. that means, if a bioball just can keep your army busy for lets say 5 seconds, then all your army is blown to dust. not proving any imbalances itself, but rendering discussing bout engaging a terran head on pretty obsolet.
well its obvious that chargining into camping terran army isnt good idea (neither allowing terran to sige tanks at your choke, it was basically game over if that happened in sc1), huk had whole map could do whatever he wanted, could take every expo and prevent terran further expoes waiting till he decides to move out (which is best time to attack) he got impatient attacked camping terran and lost most of his army (won game anyway) but it was matter of time till he builds 40 warpgates and just flood terran with mass (ah memorable game nada vs foru XDD)
On May 28 2010 03:33 Bibdy wrote: Erm, why attack the Raven when the instant the battle starts, its already done its job? That's like focus-firing a High Templar after its already blown all its energy on Psi Storms at the start of the fight.
And I'm pretty sure Sensor Towers don't spot cloaked units.
You bet your ass they do :D
Everyone always assumes otherwise tho ;-)
Top terran military analysts all agree that "Knowing is half the battle" and that early warning is one of the keys to victory. The sensor tower is a vital tool for long-range surveillance of enemy movement and the detection of stealthed aggressors.
Edit: As a terran you should ALWAYS have 2 or 3 sensor towers running (and at least one over your base(s) to tell you if a sneaky observer is present)
This is from way earlier in the thread, but I just tested this, and Sensor Towers DO NOT pick up cloaked units.
Can't see them visibly, can't see them on the map, can't see them as red dots in the FoW.
Move the units.
I just remade the map, plopped a Hellion down and ran around getting the DTs to chase after it and even after escaping, and them moving back to their starting positions, inside the FoW and within the bounds of the Sensor Tower, there was still absolutely no indicator from the Sensor Tower, whatsoever, of DTs being there.
On May 29 2010 03:18 Duelist wrote: I'm just stating what i see. Zergs complaining about Terran mech, Protoss complaining about Terran MMM + emp. I also see many people saying protoss should "look for favorable positions to engage" and "harass terrans eco", and to "avoid big confrontations vs the terran army", seems like teaching an underdog how to try to cheat his way into a win.
The protoss army is not that mobile compared to the terran, is it? Stalker and colossus are very mobile, but apart from that is there realy much more mobility from the protoss ground part? It takes 2 seconds ? for a tank to put itself on siege mode. If a terran goes imoble (read siege mode) it's because its convenient. Protoss can take advantage of that if the terran wants and lets them.
From what i see, it seems terran is the strongest race atm. I rarely see a terran complaining about OP of the other two races, but the inverse i see a lot. Not saying it proves anything, but it should be worth looking into.
Maybe because most P only know how to do a 4 gate push right into the tank line? Something that helps some of these cries is the way maps are made. Some (if not all) are a little small and the chokes favor a turtle terran.
On the other hand I stand by my first statement, dont 4gate push every game and play dead as soon as it fails. Try new things. And this is not teaching an underdog how to cheat his way into a win, its outsmarting your opponent. If the terran is sieged and standing still in a single place flank or go around and kill his base. The main army cant be everywhere (again this would work better with larger or less choke oriented maps I know). Keep expanding and making units, they go bio take colussus they go mech try using immortals, they are made to counter tanks, use some lots to soak up damage. Im not a P player so Im not that knowledgeable in P tactics but in my opinion the MU its not imbalanced.
Oh hey, another thinly-veiled "Protoss are clearly just bad players" post.
You think we DON'T go running around with Void Rays to snipe buildings? That we DON'T do Immortal drops while they're sitting siege tanks in front of our base? That we DON'T try teching to different units when we see certain Terran unit compositions? That we DON'T try and outmacro them when they just camp on their asses?
Yeah, we always just rush head-first at a Siege Tank line with Gateway units and then leap on the forums complaining how unbalanced PvT is. Makes total sense...
The quality of posts on this forum is almost as bad as the official ones sometimes.
Let's see a replay of you doing all of these things and still losing, I'm not baiting I'm serious, I'd like to see it.
Would it be worth it? There's probably a billion things, of varying magnitudes, we could both point out that I did wrong to push the argument away from PvT imbalance. Replay-based arguments are just as permeable as theory-based ones.
I can certainly find replays when I get home where I outplayed the crap out of the Terran, yet barely eeked out a win, though.
I would disagree - theory-crafting is basically meaningless UNLESS it's based on actual play -- which you can see in replays. Replay-based arguments might be permeable when the people playing are playing sub 80 apm, yes.
So, if you aren't playing at a fairly high level -- actually if BOTH sides aren't, then no, there's no point. But see, that's exactly it: there aren't enough high-level players yet, and the community has barely scratched the surface of strategic possibilities... and when you look at the win rates and the high-level tournament games I just don't see the problems that people are pointing out. If I see a game where the P plays right and loses to a T that plays significantly worse, that's another story, but I'm still waiting for one of those.
Rarely do i hear complaints about protoss winning a terran with a-move, but the inverse is much more common - just this thread is full of them - , why is that?
On May 29 2010 08:45 Duelist wrote: Rarely do i hear complaints about protoss winning a terran with a-move, but the inverse is much more common - just this thread is full of them - , why is that?
On May 28 2010 11:13 willeesmalls wrote: People need to stop whining.
How to play PvT well: 1) be patient, PvT fights are about positioning. 2) you should always have map control after very early game. 3) If you see Terran exp and bunker, take another expo 4) Scout well and deny drops 5) sentry/speedlot beats small (<60food) infantry armies. Forcefield behind his army. 6) Colossus/high templars kills everything else. 7) Don't whine if u grouped your HT's together and had 8 of them emp'd by one ghost. You played poorly.
1800 plat and I can't even tech high enough to get 8 HTs in a standard PvT nowadays.
On May 29 2010 03:18 Duelist wrote: I'm just stating what i see. Zergs complaining about Terran mech, Protoss complaining about Terran MMM + emp. I also see many people saying protoss should "look for favorable positions to engage" and "harass terrans eco", and to "avoid big confrontations vs the terran army", seems like teaching an underdog how to try to cheat his way into a win.
The protoss army is not that mobile compared to the terran, is it? Stalker and colossus are very mobile, but apart from that is there realy much more mobility from the protoss ground part? It takes 2 seconds ? for a tank to put itself on siege mode. If a terran goes imoble (read siege mode) it's because its convenient. Protoss can take advantage of that if the terran wants and lets them.
From what i see, it seems terran is the strongest race atm. I rarely see a terran complaining about OP of the other two races, but the inverse i see a lot. Not saying it proves anything, but it should be worth looking into.
Maybe because most P only know how to do a 4 gate push right into the tank line? Something that helps some of these cries is the way maps are made. Some (if not all) are a little small and the chokes favor a turtle terran.
On the other hand I stand by my first statement, dont 4gate push every game and play dead as soon as it fails. Try new things. And this is not teaching an underdog how to cheat his way into a win, its outsmarting your opponent. If the terran is sieged and standing still in a single place flank or go around and kill his base. The main army cant be everywhere (again this would work better with larger or less choke oriented maps I know). Keep expanding and making units, they go bio take colussus they go mech try using immortals, they are made to counter tanks, use some lots to soak up damage. Im not a P player so Im not that knowledgeable in P tactics but in my opinion the MU its not imbalanced.
Oh hey, another thinly-veiled "Protoss are clearly just bad players" post.
You think we DON'T go running around with Void Rays to snipe buildings? That we DON'T do Immortal drops while they're sitting siege tanks in front of our base? That we DON'T try teching to different units when we see certain Terran unit compositions? That we DON'T try and outmacro them when they just camp on their asses?
Yeah, we always just rush head-first at a Siege Tank line with Gateway units and then leap on the forums complaining how unbalanced PvT is. Makes total sense...
The quality of posts on this forum is almost as bad as the official ones sometimes.
First dont state "we" because to the best of my knowledge your are only speaking for yourself. My post was directed to those who do such things (more than you think I guess). Second I didnt say all Ps are bad. Third...my god if you do all that and you cant win show me who those terrans are, they sure are good! Do you really think the people that are complaining here do all those stuff you say you try? And dont win 50% of their games against T?
Oh and before you say that WE dont do something (run into sieged tanks) take some time to read this thread. You will understand why I say that. The fact that you try all those things, to me, shows that you understand the game and have the knowledge to find counters and that is great. I just find odd that doing those things well done on a regular basis will lead to defeat.
Again the maps. With this one I can agree with most of you. There are some maps now that make turtle terrans happy.
On May 28 2010 11:13 willeesmalls wrote: People need to stop whining.
How to play PvT well: 1) be patient, PvT fights are about positioning. 2) you should always have map control after very early game. 3) If you see Terran exp and bunker, take another expo 4) Scout well and deny drops 5) sentry/speedlot beats small (<60food) infantry armies. Forcefield behind his army. 6) Colossus/high templars kills everything else. 7) Don't whine if u grouped your HT's together and had 8 of them emp'd by one ghost. You played poorly.
1800 plat and I can't even tech high enough to get 8 HTs in a standard PvT nowadays.
do you talk about marauder pushes? mmm? 1/1/1? ghostmech?
1750 plat protoss and i was 55% to win against p, 60% against z, and only 45% against t. Perhaps more importantly in 200 games I never had a match against toss where I felt like there was nothing I could have done differently to win, only had 1 match against a zerg where I felt like that, but I have had about 5 matches against terran where after watching the replay and thinking about it for a while I still felt like there was nothing I could have done to win. So I'm not sure if 2k+ players have the same difficulty against each other or what but I see Huk do fine and I'm left baffled when I hear 1800 terran players complain tvp is unbalanced.
You cannot beat an equal food/resource Terran army in a straight up fight unless you are significantly better than the other player at microing. It's the price Zerg and Protoss pay for the extra mobility and faster reinforcing that they enjoy.
On May 29 2010 10:25 KillerPenguin wrote: 1750 plat protoss and i was 55% to win against p, 60% against z, and only 45% against t. Perhaps more importantly in 200 games I never had a match against toss where I felt like there was nothing I could have done differently to win, only had 1 match against a zerg where I felt like that, but I have had about 5 matches against terran where after watching the replay and thinking about it for a while I still felt like there was nothing I could have done to win. So I'm not sure if 2k+ players have the same difficulty against each other or what but I see Huk do fine and I'm left baffled when I hear 1800 terran players complain tvp is unbalanced.
sorry this is a bit off topic. But is there a way to actualy check your win % other than just estimating? sorry for the off topic noob post...
On May 29 2010 12:24 DarkwindHK wrote: I tried to switch to Terran and use this on Diamond Protoss, and yes it does work and Protoss need a lot of work to win this.
Due to my noobish experience with Terran, I forget to build gohst and banshee, but I can still win by using a super turtle style of strategy.
Just finished watching gummybear v you. He breaks into your base b/c you pushed blindly and he got lucky. For a high level game, both of you love to play in the dark. Then instead of expanding he feels that the same push will start to produce results when you obviously will have the turtle advantage. He just kept throwing his units away, it was sad to watch. Instead he could've just used his mobility and map control to take earlier expansions. Instead he waited for his main to get COMPLETELY mined out b4 making his 2nd expansion. I mean seriously... his 2nd expansion was so late it was mind boggling.
Then he finally decides on a tech to high temps... good! Wait... he walked all his high temps INTO your tanks. Didn't bother to look at their mana or anything... a1 a2 right into your tanks. Then he starts crying about how OP terran is? Horrible. "Hey let me FINALLY try to use blink." Oh 4 stalkers weren't able to really do any damage, of course that strat is out of the window. Btw we are just about to head into his 2nd expansion, and hes currently at 0/0 upgrades (just thought I'd point that out).
Honestly if he just frustrated the crap out of you by attacking at the front and sides he would've taken that game easily. He could've easily just starved you, instead he felt the need to gather a couple of units w/o any real upgrades and just head butt you to death and use the apm to whine instead of using a little micro... even a little like focusing those ravens which were obviously wrecking his stalkers... no lets just stick with a move. "Lets kill that PDD which is just out in the open during the down time... nah I'll let it just stay up there not like it really does anything.... DERFA DERFA."
Did he use his map control to the least? NO. Jesus... leave one zealot at the expansions on your opponent's side for god's sake... nah I'll just play blind... its obviously working for the turtling terran. Would've been so easy to notice that you were taking your army everywhere when you expanded.. could've done SOME damage, but no... "terran is just too OP".
I wish there was a unit which had a range of 9 and could cliff walk and pretty much go anywhere on the map pretty quickly.... wouldn't that be wonderful? HEY I GOT AN IDEA... I'LL CLIFF WALK AND TAKE OUT SOME TURRETS :o. Way too micro intensive I guess. I'll agree that blistering isn't the best cliff walking map, but seriously... this guy has the choice of going pretty much ANY tech he wanted to and it would've taken you by complete surprise and he had the map control and the resources to do it, too. He chooses to walk his high temps into your base and then just spend minutes upon minutes typing.
Lets play the what if game. What if he realized his map control and took advantage of it? You would've been playing out of one base at the 40 minute mark, guaranteed. Heck if this guy just make pylons at every expansion and just flanked your army he would've won.
What if he actually used high temps instead of a1 a2ing them. He found a1 a2ing into your tanks more productive than using feedback. As soon as his probe died it was obvious that his army was going to get rocked if he pushed, but he still pushed.
He could've added a couple of void rays or something. At least look like he was trying. Zealot charge maybe? Nah.. I'll just let my zealots get rocked and not get that charge BS. I won't even get armor so they have some chance of surviving.
I'm just a little ticked off at every single toss and zerg I beat complaining about how amazing terran is and how easy it is to just turtle and win. I mean seriously just take ONE minute of your lives and just think about what the term turtle implies and what it means to win. If your opponent is turtling then you have the map control. You don't even have to fight for it... it was handed to you. Expand earlier, expand more. Do something with the advantage. If you are just going to turtle just like the terran then what are you complaining about? I BARELY have a win ratio of 60%. Pretty low level platinum (~400). Even at my level it is obvious that a lot of these strats are in their prelim stages. As new strats come out they seem IMBA for a while then as players figure out how to beat them, they become less and less "IMBA". For example this Terran is IMBA crap... you get map control and s/he gets a fairly safe FRONT. No one is saying that you can't do drops or blink in from the sides to keep the terran contained in his natural. How do you beat that? You make turrets every where, but really think about the implications of having say 5 turrets up in your main.. just your main. That is 750 minerals, which is 15 marines, 15 SCVs etc etc etc. There is no arguing that it puts the terran back quite a bit.
If you really feel that I'm just talking out of my ass... thats fine because I might be (w/o knowing it), but take a couple of minutes to watch your damn losses and just try to envision how you could've won instead of doing the same old crap repeatedly and expecting it to work.
I think PvT has always revolved around one central timing push which allows protoss to expand safely or simply win the game outright. With the tank buff and terrans going a more tech oriented build this one timing push is being swiftly defended against and a counter-attack ensues. Protoss have had great success with playing highly aggressive play, however at this point these timing pushes are becoming less effective and I think that is why many protoss are having problems right now.
On May 29 2010 15:47 Diaspora wrote: I think PvT has always revolved around one central timing push which allows protoss to expand safely or simply win the game outright. With the tank buff and terrans going a more tech oriented build this one timing push is being swiftly defended against and a counter-attack ensues. Protoss have had great success with playing highly aggressive play, however at this point these timing pushes are becoming less effective and I think that is why many protoss are having problems right now.
I feel that early timing pushes would never really work unless the terran decides to not wall off. The mid game timing pushes are warded off by tanks, but really why would you try to beat the person turtling by attacking at the front? Why not do a drop which won't cost you much, but it'll give you insight into the guys base. Don't attack b4 an obs perhaps? As I stated earlier, playing in the dark is just dumb. You have tons of ways to figure out what your opponent is doing, why not use them and try to devise a strat? I.e. when you are about to do a tech, it just makes more sense (to me at least) to know what the terran's army comp is. That way I can make the right upgrade and get some form of an upper hand.
Also, as I stated earlier, terrans have a safe front. You can do drops pretty sucessfully, w/o any real danger to your units. Not only does it do damage to terran economy, it also puts that psychological pressure on the player. Just the threat of drops keeps people in their base for longer than they need to be. I've had players just drop in, destroy my ref... didn't bother with anything else and just backed out. I stayed in the base much longer than needed while s/he just expanded happily. I've done it to others and it works fairly well. Maybe its just a lower level gaming tactic, but it seems to work fairly well.
On May 29 2010 16:29 BigDates wrote: i think TvZ is more of an imbalance with the ongoing mech pushes TBH
Same principles apply. It is a bit easier to win against zerg, unless they realize the same thing... it is the front that is super duper defended and not the back. A drop with tons of ovies is scary as can be.
On May 29 2010 15:47 Diaspora wrote: I think PvT has always revolved around one central timing push which allows protoss to expand safely or simply win the game outright. With the tank buff and terrans going a more tech oriented build this one timing push is being swiftly defended against and a counter-attack ensues. Protoss have had great success with playing highly aggressive play, however at this point these timing pushes are becoming less effective and I think that is why many protoss are having problems right now.
I feel that early timing pushes would never really work unless the terran decides to not wall off. The mid game timing pushes are warded off by tanks, but really why would you try to beat the person turtling by attacking at the front? Why not do a drop which won't cost you much, but it'll give you insight into the guys base. Don't attack b4 an obs perhaps? As I stated earlier, playing in the dark is just dumb. You have tons of ways to figure out what your opponent is doing, why not use them and try to devise a strat? I.e. when you are about to do a tech, it just makes more sense (to me at least) to know what the terran's army comp is. That way I can make the right upgrade and get some form of an upper hand.
Also, as I stated earlier, terrans have a safe front. You can do drops pretty sucessfully, w/o any real danger to your units. Not only does it do damage to terran economy, it also puts that psychological pressure on the player. Just the threat of drops keeps people in their base for longer than they need to be. I've had players just drop in, destroy my ref... didn't bother with anything else and just backed out. I stayed in the base much longer than needed while s/he just expanded happily. I've done it to others and it works fairly well. Maybe its just a lower level gaming tactic, but it seems to work fairly well.
It depends. Right now I see most T's going 1/1/1, getting tanks, grabbing an expo and turtling up until they can their mass MMM + tanks + viking + raven + thor army of death, with maybe a mid game push here or there with marauders or perhaps some banshee play.
But on a lot of maps with backdoors like Blistering or Kulas you can really punish his heavy tech'ing with early pushes like a 4-gate or 3 gate + robo or blink stalkers b/c most T are too overconfident in their wall-ins.
And early pushes are also great on maps w/ hard to defend naturals like Blistering and Oasis b/c preventing that mid-game expo is huge for P in this matchup, forcing T to come out into the open to fight.
It's maps like Lost Temple which I personally find is tough as their natural is so easily defendable, combined with the size of the map makes it hard to crack T's defense.
Regarding drop ships, you have to remember that Terran players would make multiple dropships even if they weren't a transport as they are also your medics, but Protoss players don't make shuttles unless you actually are going to use them as a dropship and they have no in-combat effect really (you can use it to warp in units, but you wouldn't need more than 1 really). So basically this maps drops a very easy an cost-effective for T but not at all for Protoss, which is another huge boon for T on maps like LT.
I think storm needs a revamp. It needs to be a lot more like the old storm, covers a larger area and does 3 waves of damage and not 1 initial damage output.
I think Recall should come from Warp Prism with a costly research at the support Bay.
You can play coy all you want and talk about dropping a Terran (lol?) but when is a Protoss going to have a fleet of Prisms ready to drop into his base? You think a single Prism with 2-4 units + Warpgate offers a legitimate threat to the turtle-Terran? Mules will recover any economic loss you inflict and you leave yourself open to a counter-attack.
Imagine how any SC1 PvT would play out if Protoss never got Recall, because that's how this match-up is shaping up.
The only strategy i have found viable against a turtle terran with ST's is map control outexspanding him (or her - haha - as if) and massing up voidrays and of course making chargelot with the rest og the Minerals. The Air upgrades are crucial cause they make the vr's soo much better! This build is only viable if you know he is in fact turtling with tanks...
I usually go gate. Gas, cyber, gas, hidden stargate, 2 more Gates and of course warp tech (as Soon as cyber is done. If he is being aggressive i Will only make a few voids and use Them for harash, but if he is going mech i Will expand and make additional stargates... Let mé know what you Think... It seems to work in top 10 diamond, but to be honest tvp is still the hardest matchup for me, but that is usually because of very early terran pushes - especially proxy with mauraders...
well i´ve also tried using this strategy effectively, but without storm, a marine heavy build destroys as well zealots as voidrays. the problem i found was the charge of the rays. in a big battle, the ki would just target a singe marine with like 4 rays... they will never get charged. well chargin when you see he´s attacking... i mean c´mon with stim you need 2 secs to actually run over the half map. and charging and then attacking myself also proves very difficult, cause stim and go, he runs just away, waiting for the rays to uncharge and then turn back to hit me hard. some replays would be nice. the only thing i could figure as a solution is adding templar, but templar and void are too much gas i think.
On May 29 2010 18:01 ensis wrote: well i´ve also tried using this strategy effectively, but without storm, a marine heavy build destroys as well zealots as voidrays. the problem i found was the charge of the rays. in a big battle, the ki would just target a singe marine with like 4 rays... they will never get charged. well chargin when you see he´s attacking... i mean c´mon with stim you need 2 secs to actually run over the half map. and charging and then attacking myself also proves very difficult, cause stim and go, he runs just away, waiting for the rays to uncharge and then turn back to hit me hard. some replays would be nice. the only thing i could figure as a solution is adding templar, but templar and void are too much gas i think.
the key is to go into his base from the back and charge up om his buildings. Sensor Towers makes this difficult, but if he has a lot of siegetanks you should still be avle to take Down his marines head om assuming you are outproducing him...
Im on my phone right now but Will try to post replays later..
On May 28 2010 00:28 Duelist wrote: So i took the liberty of picking two great players, and a battle between a protoss and a terran army. And used the SC2 unit tester map to calculate costs of the units involved.
TLO's army:
17 marines, 11 Marauders, 3 ghosts
total cost: 2400m / 725 g / 45 supply
NonY's army:
12 Zealots, 3 immortals, 7 stalkers, 3 sentries
total cost: 2975m / 950g / 56 supply
Results?
10 Marines, 6 marauders and 1 ghost left, all but 1 immortal and 2 stalkers almost dead survived.
It was my understanding that immortals were the worst possible tech path versus ghosts. P should lose in that situation, especially if you nail the EMPs against immortals.
I'm also a diamond player and can offer some minor tips to this matchup.
In general, these complex unit compositions are not supposed to lose to a set strat. In SC2 there are more hard counter units to deal with. What this means is your army needs to be as diverse as theirs in most cases.
That being said, it is still starcraft pvt. You need to have the economic advantage as stated throughout this thread. Too many pvt are attempting equal base fights which is difficult since the Terran have become even more efficient than before.
I'm sure you know the basic counters, but as PvT I have had a lot of luck with adding Pheonixes instead of using Voidray harasses. They temporarily nullify siege tanks which are the most devastating ground unit to worry about, in addition they are about equal with vikings but you have the option to fight or run; whereas vikings don't.
Also HT are great to deal with ghosts and mm balls. Even though you can group all your units together, that doesn't mean it is a good idea to do so. Spread HT's can snipe ghosts pretty well with feedbacks and they can snipe with emp. It boils down to good micro at that point.
Overall, I am not too impressed with Robo pushes against Terran during the midgame. 3 immortals is always a nice addition to an army, but I feel like Terran are starting to understand to banshee them or ghost. I also dislike colossi against Terran if they have viking support because even if you do use pheonix to guard them. You can't cover them fast enough without a group of vikings taking them out, plus the vikings are pretty cost effective even if its a suicide run.
So to recap, stronger econ vs Terran since your army is more mobile to start with and use units to nullify key weapons of the Terran vs Protoss (siege , ghost).
Hi, I am a protoss player and I have 2 replays for you. These are custom games with my friend.
-- this replay I won mainly because I had Xel Naga and I catched his army unsieged at about 9th minute.
--this time fizola delayed starport to get 2 ghosts early to EMP. I think, that all P player has to do is just to run when EMPed and encounter back again when shield are regenerated. Well it's that simple. It takes 50+5 seconds to regenerate all lost shields, and 55 seconds period of time regenerates only 35 mana. My major mistakes I think were that: - I should have owned the Xel Naga - I should have been at his base, to force the emp, keeping my sentries out of range - when I lost my first battle I should have been defending the ramp (I forgot that he has no flying units)
Where is my 100/100 upgrade that gives zealots stalkers and sentries 50% more damage and movement speed ? me wants. -------
Beyond that i think terran is fine. Their units are just great overall there's no jack of all trades type bullshit going on. Marines / vikings dominate air while marauders / tanks are incredible vs ground. Helions and reapers are specifically designed to harras or simply dominate ground light units. Medvacs complement infantry and gives them massive mobility. Thors are prolly the only unit that tries to do too much but even then only 1 or 2 already rapes mutas as long as they get support from other units.
Zealots are ok meat shields and do decent damage but once they die the rest of the protoss army except for the tier 3 units just doesn't do enough damage. Stalkers / Sentry are laughable dps. Immortals spend 1/2 their time shooting marines / lings unless properly microed.
Dts are just a glorified stealth zealot that can't charge and requires the enemy to have A unit with detection in the field or simply scan once a big battle happens.
Phoenix are good vs muta / banshee and thats about it. Vikings / corruptors destroy them
Void rays spend 1/2 their time charging by the time they are fully charged (assuming their targets dint die instantly thus resetting the charge, the few remaining marines stim and focus them down in 5 seconds.
If you have 500 apm during a battle and tell every unit to attack exactly whats good for them then protoss does pretty good but its just pathetic having to deal with that every single battle when the other guy can a click and go back to building stuff in his base until colossus show up and you can sort of do the same till they catch up on air units.
If your opponent is turtling then you have the map control. You don't even have to fight for it... it was handed to you. Expand earlier, expand more. Do something with the advantage. If you are just going to turtle just like the terran then what are you complaining about?.
Putting it like that makes it sound as if turtling was actually good for the protoss, but is it really? If a terran turtles, its because no matter the advantages the protoss may get, in the end, it still is better for the terran, otherwise the terran would go for another strategy, right? And for the terran to gladly handle the protoss map control, which is indeed a great advantge, then imagine the advantage that the terran gains by turtling. It's like they were giving out the small toy because they get to have the bigger one.
Concerning the immortals, i read somewhere that stimmed marauders have higher dps than the mighty - probably not so mighty - immortals vs armmored. Immortals may have more HP, but i question if that increase in price is really worth the extra HP and hardened shields, since they usually get FF for being so few and having to be at the front line with their 5 range.
well immortals are useless, you can build 1 after your obs, in case the terrans pushing ,but against stim+emp, they fall like zealots. well but for the alternatives...stalkers.... well, everythings said bout them
well, it's quite clear that nony was outplayed in that isolated example because his sentry's were in the front and hit by emp, therefore wasn't able to get a single forcefield.
that's like a terran sieging up his tanks right in the front of his army with an impending battle.
PvT I recently played, forced an extra stim that did almost no damage to me and he still rolled me over with a simple army. I still won the game since he hadnt expanded and I had, and I was just starting to pump colossus which does destroy rines... but stim -> amove is pretty ridiculously strong.
On May 30 2010 01:40 TheRabidDeer wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uu6Hrqg-C7E PvT I recently played, forced an extra stim that did almost no damage to me and he still rolled me over with a simple army. I still won the game since he hadnt expanded and I had, and I was just starting to pump colossus which does destroy rines... but stim -> amove is pretty ridiculously strong.
The only reason terran won that battle was because he was macroing more units in the entire time, and also your second wave of forcefields failed to split his army...
On May 30 2010 01:40 TheRabidDeer wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uu6Hrqg-C7E PvT I recently played, forced an extra stim that did almost no damage to me and he still rolled me over with a simple army. I still won the game since he hadnt expanded and I had, and I was just starting to pump colossus which does destroy rines... but stim -> amove is pretty ridiculously strong.
also, you probably don't want your low hp sentries in the front, especially since they have guardian shield which kind of causes a massive decrease in dps from the marines, also stalkers have larger range than marines, so you could probably have sniped the marines on the ridge with the stalkers without taking any damage. also could have held out with ff until collossi came in and ripped apart the terran army. forcefield lets you control when you want to engage against a ground army. and with that many sentries you could have stalled easily until collossi came in, and if you're up a base, you definitely should have stalled it.
also, go watch white-ra vs maka. the game is pretty balanced at the upper levels...
Blizzard says it's imbalanced, and they're the only ones w/ the statistics, so end of the whole balance discussion.
You need to learn the counters first, then scout, then scout more, and then scout again. That is one of protoss's advantages to terran, their scouting ability and tech options.
I think they should simply just remove stim from marauders.
1. It's overpowered in late game.
2. It's overpowered if they do an early game marauder rush. It's not even possible to stop that unless you go 2gate early.
1. If you can't counter marauders in the late game then you obviously have a serious problem. Collossae, storm, immortals....
2. A voidray rush isn't possible to stop, unless you go starport viking or unless you add a quick ghost. Does this mean voidrays should be nerfed more?
On May 30 2010 01:40 TheRabidDeer wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uu6Hrqg-C7E PvT I recently played, forced an extra stim that did almost no damage to me and he still rolled me over with a simple army. I still won the game since he hadnt expanded and I had, and I was just starting to pump colossus which does destroy rines... but stim -> amove is pretty ridiculously strong.
your forcefields pretty much were terrible. the first wall was for what purpose? it just delayed the fight. the second wall was for what purpose? you put a few behind their army?
you're supposed to be splitting his army and destroying them piece by piece
judging from the armies you could have won that easily.
On May 27 2010 22:42 Severedevil wrote: My intuition says your economy is too small - generally if an opponent's composition seems unbeatable it's because your army is too small. You might also consider more use of air and/or upgrades.
This.
Also, I wanna make enphasis on the upgrades. If Protoss doesn't have 2/2/0 or 2/0/2 on mid game, battles get pretty uphill.
If your opponent is turtling then you have the map control. You don't even have to fight for it... it was handed to you. Expand earlier, expand more. Do something with the advantage. If you are just going to turtle just like the terran then what are you complaining about?.
Putting it like that makes it sound as if turtling was actually good for the protoss, but is it really? If a terran turtles, its because no matter the advantages the protoss may get, in the end, it still is better for the terran, otherwise the terran would go for another strategy, right? And for the terran to gladly handle the protoss map control, which is indeed a great advantge, then imagine the advantage that the terran gains by turtling. It's like they were giving out the small toy because they get to have the bigger one.
Concerning the immortals, i read somewhere that stimmed marauders have higher dps than the mighty - probably not so mighty - immortals vs armmored. Immortals may have more HP, but i question if that increase in price is really worth the extra HP and hardened shields, since they usually get FF for being so few and having to be at the front line with their 5 range.
Turtling is awesome. PvT, after all the immortal nerfs and bio buffs, has reverted to BW style PvT. The only reliable way Protoss can really win is by starving and out-producing the Terran. Due to the buffs to Terran early game/nerfs to Protoss early game it is much hard to secure a strong lead in the beginning. Protoss simply must be able to out-expand the Terran. Utilize the immobility of the Terran army in order to out-expand them. If they go pure MMM, which is very mobile, you should have no problems stomping it. It is only when ravens and tanks are added when the game becomes much more difficult. But the Terran also becomes much more immobile. Abuse that.
Also, Immortals are ONLY useful in the early game to ward off the initial marauder/tank harassment or to do an early wall bust. Once the armies get larger, they become more or less useless because of their slow movespeed and short range. Often, they will not be able to get many shots off due to their being blocked off. In addition, once the Terran amasses either ghosts or enough marines with stim (or both) Immortal shields fall almost instantaneously and 50% of their usability disappears.
Upgrades are nice, but I feel that armor/shield upgrades really aren't as important as weapons upgrades. The armor/shield upgrades are negligible once the Terran starts getting tanks. They are only really useful against the marines. It's all about balance. If you see the Terran getting a lot of marines, then perhaps getting more armor/shield is important. However, if you see the Terran with a lot more tanks, then max out weapons asap before armor/shield.
PvT is not imbalanced. It has become much harder than it was earlier in beta and is probably a lot harder than it was in BW, as well due to the loss of the arbiter and low viability of carriers. However, it's not imbalanced. Playing smart and economically will win you the matchup.
What it all comes down to is that if equal skilled players face each other, it is easier for the terran to win. that is an imbalance.
You all keep saying that the protoss has to outmacro, harass, and be more mobile. destroy the terran army in the 2 seconds it takes him to siege his tanks. It shouldn't be an uphill battle, the playing field needs to be more even. Both protoss and zerg are having major trouble against terran right now, for pretty much the same reason. They have VERY hard counters to anything protoss or zerg can throw at them and they don't have trouble massing those counters. Zerg and protoss do now have those kinds of counters available. counters should be effective, but not unbeatable.
I don't know if the game has been played long enough for anyone to authoritatively claim imbalance just yet, but I definitely have the most difficulty with the strat you're outlining against terran, I'm also in diamond for what it's worth. A few things I've tried that can work (really depends on what you scout in the terran base):
Getting fast stalkers and putting on a good amount of early pressure, and expanding if possible during this time. Stalkers are pretty annoying for terran to deal with early game because of their range and mobility. You can open their wall-off from relative safety and dance to kill marauders and marines (if they don't have concussive shells yet).
Watching the tanks and trying to intercept them while they're moving with speed zealots. This is a lot harder if you're playing someone decent because they'll be much better at getting rid of observers, which is costly on gas.
DTs. This is only really viable in certain situations. If I see a terran without any towers in his base and no expo up yet for extra scan energy I will often get DTs, if you split them up and send them to different parts of his base they're incredibly hard to deal with, they can only throw down so many scans if there aren't any ravens up. DTs are also great at catching armies on the move. If the guy is pumping vikings to protect his tanks he's probably not going to have a raven until pretty late in the game. I usually try to send 1 dt to the mineral line, and a couple of others to attack anything that can possibly provide vision (tech lab on a starport, engineering bay) if these go down he's completely screwed, even if he can scan once or twice.
Generally I know what you're saying, once the terran get like 4-5 tanks, a decent MM ball and a few vikings the force is pretty insanely difficult to deal with, but I think there are still potential strategies people haven't really explored yet. Someone mentioned the vortex idea and that sounds like it could be very effective. At the very least you could vortex the MM ball and just take the tanks out, since they can't get into the vortex in time.
On May 30 2010 05:12 Ryuu314 wrote: PvT is not imbalanced. It has become much harder than it was earlier in beta and is probably a lot harder than it was in BW, as well due to the loss of the arbiter and low viability of carriers. However, it's not imbalanced. Playing smart and economically will win you the matchup.
Playing smart and economically is what the terran is also doing.
When you say it is hard as a protoss, it sounds as if you mean a person would have more chances of winning, if in a PvT he happened to be the terran, since being on one side - protoss's - is harder than being on the other - terran's? Because if it's hard for one, it should be hard for the other as well, otherwise we can't call it balanced.
It also seems that it's up to the terran to decide a strategy and to the protoss to try to counter it with whatever opened windows are left, is it close to the truth?
It might be hard as Protoss, but it's a hell of satisfying when a Terran moves in to my hallucinated army my warp prism on the back in phase mode (with no missle turrets around) warps in a bunch of units destroy the economy line, the army pulling back (I keep warping in units) and wiht my other army go A-attack the front, chasing the other army.
Sneaking in a well-timed drop can be completely devastating for this build also. This build will almost always have a near-impenetrable front entrance and really weak flanks. If you get 1-2 warp prisms of units into the base, set them to phase mode and warp in another half dozen units and go straight for the jugular. This build is not cheap, so any economic damage you can do will be huge, and since a good portion of their army will be in the form of tanks sieged at their front entrance, you pretty much have free reign on the mineral line until they can get their army back where it needs to be.
I think one of the most important things when fighting terran is exploiting the immobility of their mech units. Tanks and Thors are very powerful but also very slow and cumbersome. If you do 2-pronged attacks, drops, DTs, and other things that require a lot of mobility to deal with they will have significantly more trouble dealing with your attacks.
-edit- yeah the guy above me beat me to it. Hallucination is another really good idea to draw the units attention or possibly get them out of position for a flank/drop.
On May 30 2010 05:43 bowserbowser wrote: What it all comes down to is that if equal skilled players face each other, it is easier for the terran to win. that is an imbalance.
You all keep saying that the protoss has to outmacro, harass, and be more mobile. destroy the terran army in the 2 seconds it takes him to siege his tanks. It shouldn't be an uphill battle, the playing field needs to be more even. Both protoss and zerg are having major trouble against terran right now, for pretty much the same reason. They have VERY hard counters to anything protoss or zerg can throw at them and they don't have trouble massing those counters. Zerg and protoss do now have those kinds of counters available. counters should be effective, but not unbeatable.
Let me try to get this straight. You want to be able to 1a 2a into the terran's base and just win. That won't seem imbalanced, but what does seem imbalanced is that you have to use drops / blinks to put pressure on the terran? The fact that you have map control over a terran means absolutely nothing in your eyes because you can't get a 10 minute win?
It is an uphill battle if you do nothing but 1a 2a b/c you won't get any results. Its been stated so many times that the front is defended well but the back and sides are pretty vulnerable. It is so ludacris to bitch and whine that you can not win in a RTS (the S stands for strategy) by head butting units into the opponent's base.
Do you have any idea how hard it is to tech switch mid-late game when you are only mining out of around two bases? Granted some maps are easier to expand in than others, but there is no way for a terran to effectively cover all bases as pure mech. If they sacrifice some mech for mobility then they are that much more vulnerable at their front. A protoss, on the other hand, can keep expanding and just starve the terran.
Why must 1a 2a be the be all. end all strat? Put some early pressure with stalkers. Need some examples? Watch TLO vs White-ra in the Altitude 3rd and 4th placement matches. If the terran is favoring marauders then just void ray up on him. The fact of the matter is that when you change your opponent SHOULD change and most good players will change. Then it becomes a battle of the players. Thats what this game means, in my eyes, the players win not the race. You can watch all these big tournies and you'll notice that the finals / semis are pretty diverse. It isn't just all terrans facing off b/c they eliminated the competition.
This is a REAL TIME strategy game. That means you have to be some what flexible. You can not just keep doing what you WANT to do and expect the same results every single time. Well... at least when the opponent isn't a programmed computer. You have to change and when you change your opponent will change too... that is what makes it fun. If you really just want to play scripted things then why not try RPGs? You kill Lich King once or 1000 times... you do the same exact thing.
In general, void rays rape all terran mech builds pretty much, and with high templars to take on the rines/rauders, with backup of chargelots, I dont see the problem tbh.
On May 30 2010 01:40 TheRabidDeer wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uu6Hrqg-C7E PvT I recently played, forced an extra stim that did almost no damage to me and he still rolled me over with a simple army. I still won the game since he hadnt expanded and I had, and I was just starting to pump colossus which does destroy rines... but stim -> amove is pretty ridiculously strong.
your forcefields pretty much were terrible. the first wall was for what purpose? it just delayed the fight. the second wall was for what purpose? you put a few behind their army?
you're supposed to be splitting his army and destroying them piece by piece
judging from the armies you could have won that easily.
This was when the server was laggy, so FF was pretty hard to try and use. The first wall was nearly perfect though, I got like 8 free kills and he wasted stim. The second wall I just finished off to cut off reinforcements. If you think my FF was terrible in 1-2 second lag then I expect you to be able to do better 100% of the time though mr. professional.
The more I think about it the more I think that the vortex ability has serious potential to crush this build. If you vortexed an army with sieged tanks in it and threw a few zealots in it could work like a massive zealot bomb, forcing the tanks to do tons of damage to their own bio ball for the cost of a few zealots.
Not sure how this would work with the tank's minimum fire area, but I think when the vortex wears off they would be spread out enough to fire on themselves provided there were 2-3 sieged tanks inside. If it were late enough in the game that you were able to tech that much, you could also have templar storm the vortex as it finishes. Or you could vortex the bio ball, kill the tanks and throw all of your zealots into the vortex so they come out fighting at 0 range. Ghosts are the obvious concern, but it's not impossible.
Even if none of these things work I think the point is there are tons of options that people haven't even considered, we can't really call imbalance after like 2 weeks on any given patch. Try new things, think about it, don't just a-move your zealot-sentry-colossus army toward his base.
The problem with terran at current state is terran controls each and every game. Protoss have to scout scout scout scout scout and build soft counters to whatever the terran is doing. While terran just turtles masses and thinks "i dont give a fuck, i know you know what im making, and im probably still going to win" You guys are overlooking the very basic fact that due to terrans range zealots become totaly obsolete midgame. Terrans very basic unit is extreamly cheap. packs a punch the entire game, has great utility, and is very easily massible. Terrans t 1-1.5 counters all toss ground.
Protoss is supposed to be the bad ass exspensive high food count race. Zerg is supposed to be the extreamly fragile, easily massible, and hardcore macro race. Terran is supposed to be a weak unit by unit individual, sturdy, and range based race.
That in there lies the second problem. Terran has great power early mid and late game. Doesnt really need any individual tech to counter each race, and is very very very cheap for min/dps for EVERY SINGLE UNIT. In short. Terran hits harder than toss. Terran can keep up with zerg macro (even outprouduce base per base) and has the amazing utility that made Terran what it was in BW.
Remeber in BW where you could Marine+bat+medic against a toss, but often loss due to toss micro? well, in sc2 marauder elimates any and all micro from stalkers (laughable dps comapred to goon) and kites zealots to there death. Charge is close to a worthless upgrade mid/late game due to the mass range of terran units. (noobs players. quit recomonding fucking charge on forums! its confusing the new playres!!) Terrans 2 upgrades on the other hand give movement/dps and health/no micro for j00.
To all you terran players (who actualy understand that toss going void rays are a free win for you) do you honestly beleive that your race is not OP at this current state? That for toss we must drop(lol toss is so fail at drop) flank from 8 1/2 sides, have 1+ base at all times, Throw away the A-move. Tech to teir 110.5 storm+forcefield+ micro have 3/3/3 upgrades on everything (lol toss's scale'n on ground is just wtf lame) and then go air? oh yeah...thats just to counter the 1.5+tank 1A+left click push? (dont even get me started and ghost+mm rush, or 1-1-1) Get real. Remeber....Toss units are supposed to be the bad asses
Yes i play all races. Yes terran is my least played. (i feel like i cheat when i play terran) yes i cry when im Z and see a terran go mech. Yes i cry when i see non retarded terran player when i play toss.
On May 30 2010 08:37 Aether wrote: The more I think about it the more I think that the vortex ability has serious potential to crush this build. If you vortexed an army with sieged tanks in it and threw a few zealots in it could work like a massive zealot bomb, forcing the tanks to do tons of damage to their own bio ball for the cost of a few zealots.
Not sure how this would work with the tank's minimum fire area, but I think when the vortex wears off they would be spread out enough to fire on themselves provided there were 2-3 sieged tanks inside. If it were late enough in the game that you were able to tech that much, you could also have templar storm the vortex as it finishes. Or you could vortex the bio ball, kill the tanks and throw all of your zealots into the vortex so they come out fighting at 0 range. Ghosts are the obvious concern, but it's not impossible.
Even if none of these things work I think the point is there are tons of options that people haven't even considered, we can't really call imbalance after like 2 weeks on any given patch. Try new things, think about it, don't just a-move your zealot-sentry-colossus army toward his base.
sigh. this quote makes me sad. The mamaship is such a fucking fail. if you get it, it gets FF. you left saying (shit....build a colo and 2 sentrys instead)
On May 30 2010 05:43 bowserbowser wrote: What it all comes down to is that if equal skilled players face each other, it is easier for the terran to win. that is an imbalance.
You all keep saying that the protoss has to outmacro, harass, and be more mobile. destroy the terran army in the 2 seconds it takes him to siege his tanks. It shouldn't be an uphill battle, the playing field needs to be more even. Both protoss and zerg are having major trouble against terran right now, for pretty much the same reason. They have VERY hard counters to anything protoss or zerg can throw at them and they don't have trouble massing those counters. Zerg and protoss do now have those kinds of counters available. counters should be effective, but not unbeatable.
How are you supposed to make it even? Trying to do this gets dangerously close to homogenization of the various races. BW had this problem (Terran required significantly more APM, there was a very slight imbalance between the various races) and it still did quite well as a competitive e-sport.
On May 30 2010 08:37 Aether wrote: The more I think about it the more I think that the vortex ability has serious potential to crush this build. If you vortexed an army with sieged tanks in it and threw a few zealots in it could work like a massive zealot bomb, forcing the tanks to do tons of damage to their own bio ball for the cost of a few zealots.
Not sure how this would work with the tank's minimum fire area, but I think when the vortex wears off they would be spread out enough to fire on themselves provided there were 2-3 sieged tanks inside. If it were late enough in the game that you were able to tech that much, you could also have templar storm the vortex as it finishes. Or you could vortex the bio ball, kill the tanks and throw all of your zealots into the vortex so they come out fighting at 0 range. Ghosts are the obvious concern, but it's not impossible.
Even if none of these things work I think the point is there are tons of options that people haven't even considered, we can't really call imbalance after like 2 weeks on any given patch. Try new things, think about it, don't just a-move your zealot-sentry-colossus army toward his base.
sigh. this quote makes me sad. The mamaship is such a fucking fail. if you get it, it gets FF. you left saying (shit....build a colo and 2 sentrys instead)
Go ahead and re-read that last paragraph.
Even if none of these things work I think the point is there are tons of options that people haven't even considered, we can't really call imbalance after like 2 weeks on any given patch. Try new things, think about it, don't just a-move your zealot-sentry-colossus army toward his base.
All you're doing is crying and coming up with excuses. Try, I don't know... doing something other than just building colossus and crying when you get destroyed lol.
@ stratos. you could have 1000apm and still be owned by a 50 apm turtle terran. APM only accounts for so much. And yes. you can over micro/APM. i've had a few misclicks cost me games.
All you're doing is crying and coming up with excuses. Try, I don't know... doing something other than just building colossus and crying when you get destroyed lol.Last edit: 2010-05-30 09:23:18
Don't assume you know me, Or know how i play. Colo's must be micro'd. If not they too get face raped costVcost terran 1/1.5. I've tried many many many different builds. I've tried 3/1 robo into expansion. 3/1 robo into colo. 2/1 stargate into exp. 2/1star/1robo into map control. Zerg the terran. Whats sad about terrans is that 2 drop ships can win the game against Toss at any point in the game. We must hold middle. We must spread out. We must do alot of things to compete with terran. 2. Only 2 dropships can win most games.
I'm a mid-diamond P player and even I win 50% of my PvT, it's so hard. I'm sitting at ~100apm and I'm having a hard time beating ~50apm Terran players which have horrible macro, bad econ, just queuing up out of every building they have and have 1000 in bank.
What I do most of the time is the "Ninja build" (see thread) with fast blink stalkers and try to end the game right there trying to sneak in stalkers from the back door or wherever I'm not right in front of their ramp. I don't usually go DTs since every T player I've faced is so bad at macro that they always have like 100 energy sitting on their CCs at all times, so I go HT and get a few canons at my mineral line if I see that the T player gets a tech lab on his starport.
If I don't end the game right there, the T will smash my face with 1a 2a with 2 siege mode tanks and a handful of MM. But most of mid-diamond T players are SOOO bad that it will actually end the game right there (hence 50% win).
If T players can get into diamond with really poor play, then the race is unbalanced, it's not about win rates, it's just about skill level. If the T player can just sit in their base, no scout, no harrass, safely protect their natural (LT), build up a ~120 food army and then just 1a 2a and crush anything you can throw at them, then it's called imbalance, because the P player has to do LOTS of other things in order to keep up.
HT is imba ? Are you serious ? Tanks have a longer range and actually do more damage and you don't need to micro them. Every gateway unit gets smashed by just pure marauders. Colossi gets smashed by marauders + tanks usually get them out before they do any kind of real damage. Immortals just get demolished by EMP which is instant + they have 5 range which means that they will die before barely getting into range by tanks + marauders, and those units who are supposedly hard counters to marauders and tanks, well they cost a lot more and they can't do shit. Phoenix / VRs get demolished by vikings due to their abused range and they make them anyways because it hard counters all but your HT tech.
Now what you're saying is that in order to win, P has to outmicro and outmacro (the most funny part is that he's to do both at the same time) the Terran player and be in favorable position and can't let the T go on the offensive.
And you call that balanced ?
I guess we don't have the same definition of balanced.
Don't tell me "yeah you sucked because T got a mixed army and you went one tech (either robo or stargate). It's not like the T can't switch tech like he would switch socks, and you would be WAYYY behind because of how much costly is for P to do a dual tech build.
Just mass a balanced army while using warp prisms to drop into the terran base at weak spots. And here is the key, outexpand him like crazy, I'm talking get 2k+ income. Terran is really screwed with his immobile army vs 10+ warpgates warping in units all over the map backed up by a superior economy.
On May 30 2010 11:54 wintergt wrote: Just mass a balanced army while using warp prisms to drop into the terran base at weak spots. And here is the key, outexpand him like crazy, I'm talking get 2k+ income. Terran is really screwed with his immobile army vs 10+ warpgates warping in units all over the map backed up by a superior economy.
sigh... so just "have tons more stuff all over the map" is really your opinion?
On May 30 2010 04:07 JreL209 wrote: You need to learn the counters first, then scout, then scout more, and then scout again. That is one of protoss's advantages to terran, their scouting ability and tech options.
I can't agree with this - Protoss has better tech options? Unlike Terran, once Protoss commits to a certain tech path, theres no turning back in the mid game against a good opponent. Where as each of Terrans production buildings have much much more versatility (I don't think anyone can deny this).
Scouting edge is quite even but I give to Terran also because of the opportunity cost in order for Protoss to scout (after the ramp is walled off). Very rarely will a Terran cost himself the game by scouting - whether you scan or you do the flying building method (TLO style). For instance Toss, if you go for Robo early and get an observer - you likely won't get the council zealot speed upgrade in time if the Terran was planning on a MMM push the whole time (thanks to the speed upgrade being an absurd 200/200). Without chargelots, it becomes much more difficult pushing back a MMM push. But on the other hand, if you don't do a quick scout, it could easily be game over if he went for fast banshees and so on.
The only "safe" scouting option I have experienced is the fast hallucinated phoenix (right after warpgate research) with 4 warpgates. This way you can skip robotics early on and get a hallucinated phoenix and be able to chose a path thereafter, either stargate for phoenixes in case of fast banshees with a forge (for canons) or robotics for an observer, either HT if you scout multiple rax, robotics if there are several rax no factory/starport, and HT if there are reactor on starport, tech lab on factory and mixed tech lab/reactor on raxes.
The key is to keep pressuring and outplaying your opponent before he gets any critical mass of units, at which point you'll be dead meat no matter how many expos you have. Of course, this hardly works at the same skill level, and Terrans' wall is way too much of an advantage.
On May 30 2010 13:57 SpicyCrab wrote: Why can none of you address the fact that terran doesn't actually dominate protoss?
Are you suggesting that Protoss is dominating Terran?
There have been no released statistics about the state of PvT for quite a while. The last time we received any statistics about the state of PvT was many many patches ago when immortals had lower build time and was able to crush Terran extremely early.
If you want to talk about tournament wins, Terran have been winning their fair share of tourneys, at least not much less than Protoss. Additionally, tournament results are not a fully accurate indicator of how strong Protoss or Terran are against one another because the results are skewed due to the presence of Zerg and other matchups. Please don't use tourneys as a reliable indicator. It is meaningless unless the tourneys your citing contains only Terran/Protoss players.
This thread is based entirely off of supposed diamond players' observations about PvT. Personally, I feel that there is no imbalance, but apparently a lot of people do and they are discussing it.
I'm a Terran player and TvP is my worst matchup. Now I am only High Gold/Low Plat so I can generally find glaring mistakes in my play which account for my losses or I was simply outplayed by a superior opponent. But how often do you wall off yourselves? It's quite easy to do and if you don't completely wall off, such as by leaving the one zealot opening then you can still get units out of your base. Or if you plan for mostly gateway play then completely walling off with one or two cannons behind the wall is completely viable.
This forces the terran player to scout with a flying building or a scan since banshee and viking are too expensive to risk. Constantly having to scan puts us behind economically which really hurts MMM play but doesn't effect mech play nearly as much (hint, lots of scans indicates stronger likelihood for mech play over MMM - there's a tip for ya) since it is so gas heavy we generally have a huge excess of minerals so MULEs aren't as necessary.
I think it may come down to how you choose to scout after the wall off that is hurting you. My brother plays Protoss at the platinum level and he strongly prefers hallucinated Phoenix over teching to observers for his scouting, not only are they "free" in the sense that it's simply wasted energy but it doesn't "lock" him into a specific tech path which allows him to respond more easily to the terran's choices. He only really gets Observers when he feels Ghosts/Banshees are a central part of the terran strategy.
Well... all the toss are under the impression that they are just simply much better than every terran they play, but are losing because of imbalance. To which I must say, complete bullshit. There are not that many really great protoss players, but everyone who is a terran is completely and utterly horrible.
and yes, terran buildings are more versatile, but they also have to be built by workers. Taking scv's off of mining is kind of detrimental to mineral aquisition early game, and although that's not a huge deal later on, is kind of annoying.
if you're complaining about not being able to scout you could just get hallucinate, and it would be a much better use of energy than what I saw from that one video the guy showed with the miserably bad ff. personally, I have never played against a toss who scouted with anything before an observer, if they scout me at all. I've played a lot of tosses, who have never gotten anything other than gateways, and the cybernetics core, and complained about me going mass marauder, or that tanks are imbalanced. Back when I had 50 apm as a zerg in BW I was beating people with 140-150 apm. and some people with like 250 apm, but I can only assume they were spamming. apm isn't everything, and even more so in sc2 where unit composition is so freaking important.
And to everyone who said that marauders beat every gateway unit, unless the terran can kite all of the zealots, which shouldn't happen because protoss happens to have a unit that can create walls wherever it feels like creating them, they will lose to zealots, and oh man wouldn't it be terrible if you had to get collossi, and ht which both happen to rape terran infantry the same way tanks rip apart infantry.
Also, it's completely reasonable that protoss needs to be 1 base up against a terran. This was completely true in BW, and against a turtle terran, you should be at least 1 base up. And yes, the answer to a an army composition that you think is unbeatable is to just have more shit.
btw... stupid people telling protoss to go air is ridiculous since vikings completely decimate protoss air. they outrange phoenixes, so telling the phoenixes to kite is ridiculous, and unless the void rays have charge they can't do anything, and can be kited by the viking, and I've never gone against a carrier, but I assume they also get ripped apart by viking fire.
I'm not saying the game is completely balanced, blizzard isn't exactly doing their job correctly and are focusing much more on the percentages, rather than the reasons behind the percentages, but most of your complaints are ridiculous. I think the terran upgrades can go back up to 150/150, and charge can be reduced to 150/150, but other than that there's not as glaring an issue as every whiny bitching toss seems to think there is.
Just take a note from the top players, there is no such thing as imbalance. And if there is, it will be fixed.
On May 30 2010 14:42 STS17 wrote: But how often do you wall off yourselves? It's quite easy to do and if you don't completely wall off, such as by leaving the one zealot opening then you can still get units out of your base. Or if you plan for mostly gateway play then completely walling off with one or two cannons behind the wall is completely viable.
This is horrible advice. Personally, I think you should never ever wall off against Terran, especially not to completely wall off with cannons. Here's why: 1. Reapers. Early reaper harass/cheese will completely decimate you if your base is too far spread out. You will likely only have 1 stalker by the time a well-executed reaper harass gets to your base. There is no way your single stalker can cover everything if you spread your base out too far. 2. Chokes are great...until Terran gets tanks. At that point, chokes suck balls. By artificially creating an extremely narrow choke you will be able to hold off early MM aggression easily, but once the Terran gets tanks and you get contained, you will never break out. Especially since the arbiter/carrier of BW (which were key in breaking contains) are no longer present/viable. 3. Cannons are a waste of minerals (usually). They are expensive and Terran can easily destroy them without losing so much as a marine (tank range!). The only time they are really useful is in mid-late game when you have many bases and hellion/reaper/dropship harass is an issue as you can't be everywhere at once. Then, the cannons only act to delay the harass for you to send/warp in reinforcements.
On May 30 2010 14:50 aznhockeyboy16 wrote: btw... stupid people telling protoss to go air is ridiculous since vikings completely decimate protoss air. they outrange phoenixes, so telling the phoenixes to kite is ridiculous, and unless the void rays have charge they can't do anything, and can be kited by the viking, and I've never gone against a carrier, but I assume they also get ripped apart by viking fire.
Air is not a bad idea. Phoenix do not get raped by vikings. Neither unit gets any sort of bonuses against the other and when mathcrafted, a Phoenix can destroy a Viking 1v1. Click spoiler to see the math. + Show Spoiler +
Phoenix: Dmg: 5x2 = 10 damage a hit Cooldown of 1.1 HP: 120 +60 shields
Viking: Dmg: 10x2 = 20 damage a hit Cooldown of 2 HP: 125
Now, based on raw damage, it will take a Phoenix 13 hits to destroy a Viking, while a Viking can kill a Phoenix in just 8 hits. However, here, cooldown rates play a key role. Phoenix attack almost twice as fast. In other words, a Phoenix can get in almost 16 hits in the time a Viking gets in the 8 required to kill a Phoenix. At the same time, though, Vikings outrange Phoenix by 5, allowing them to get in one extra hit before the Phoenix can engage. Due to the large range of the Viking, Phoenix micro is negligible, but the Viking cannot micro nearly as well (if at all). Thus, Vikings and Phoenix are pretty even when it comes down to a head-to-head battle. Phoenix win in terms of firing rate and health and movespeed, while Viking wins in terms of raw damage per shot and getting the first hit. Obviously, 1v1 scenarios will (almost) never happen in a real game. It really comes down to positioning and support units that are present along in the battle. The point of this mathcraft is just to show that Viking are not > Phoenix they way aznhockeyboy made it out to be.
Additionally, Phoenix have anti-gravity, which is invaluable in countering a meching Terran. Lifting up a seige tank even for just a few seconds allows your ground forces (usually zealots) to close the distance. Void rays are extremely powerful either in large numbers, or when charged, or both. They are not a bad idea provided you have the proper support units for them. Carriers suck. That I agree with (out of experience) due to two thing: the Viking utterly decimates them and also the new AI combined with increased dps is able to destroy interceptors faster than you can rebuild them, effectively neutralizing carriers.
Yeah the main purpose of walling off is to cram meele units into chokes to defend easier, but T don't have any meele units so no point in that matchup.
Also I think vikings only have 125 hp, so it takes 13 hits from a phx to kill it. But the fact of the matter is vikings do not own Phxs. I've never tested it but from my experiences Phxs in a head on battle w/ equal numbers will come out ahead, but they do cost slightly more. The real advantage is Phx's speed, which allows you to chase and destroy vikings if they try to run away, where as if you are outnumbered by vikings you can easily scoot along and come back with more of your friends
Also I'm not sure if kiting void rays w/ vikings is possible either. I sure have never seen it. The void ray's attack, once locked, extends an extra 2 range and combined w/ the fact void rays can move while attacking I don't think it's really feasible. Void rays do pretty well vs vikings as well considering vikings are supposed to counter void rays.
I apologize if its been covered already, but as a P, how do you counter or survive against an early T marauder w/ conc shell push?
Zealots are kited easily. Stalkers die to Marauders without stims 1:1 and are more expensive. The first 1 or two Marauders basically kill your early forces, they have reinforcements streaming in.
This is a 40 min Diamond lvl pvt match in which the Terran went MMM+thor. The protoss player (me) Did just about everything right, Went Blink stlaks, Charge lots, HT Storm( + feedbacks on all medvacs and thors) Upgrades, IMMO's, Carriers, void rays, sent FF, and block drop, Took map control, Out expanded, Out armied, Out micro'd. Sniped expansions (yes even his NAT!!!) and still JUUUUST managed to eek out a win. All of that...just to compete with a A-move "micro" MMM terran. Watching this replay is obvious by far who the better player is, Yet he almost pulls it off.
Watch it Terrans. Tell me Terran is not op.
P.s. yes i know i made a few mistakes. And yes my hotkeys arent used much. I have a broken left hand (boxer fracture) and it makes hotkeying very very difficult. so there is the reason behind only 3 hotkeys.
I don't know why this thread is even open... TvP is one of the most balanced matchups right now, and is incredibly exciting, dynamic, and enjoyable to watch and play. Protoss definitely has the macro advantage and very strong units/mobility. Terran has great synergy and defensive power with tanks/EMP/PF. It's not terribly different from BW, but there's more options for playstyle (bio/biomech/ghostmech/skymech).
Protoss can make use of every branch of the tech tree, even carriers/mothership. This is my worst matchup and I've always found TvP difficult, but with the tank fix and immortal build time nerf I think it reached a state of balance.
On May 30 2010 16:32 Floophead_III wrote: I don't know why this thread is even open... TvP is one of the most balanced matchups right now, and is incredibly exciting, dynamic, and enjoyable to watch and play. Protoss definitely has the macro advantage and very strong units/mobility. Terran has great synergy and defensive power with tanks/EMP/PF. It's not terribly different from BW, but there's more options for playstyle (bio/biomech/ghostmech/skymech).
Protoss can make use of every branch of the tech tree, even carriers/mothership. This is my worst matchup and I've always found TvP difficult, but with the tank fix and immortal build time nerf I think it reached a state of balance.
In short: quitcherbitchin.
did you watch my replay? No? you didnt? watch the fucking replay and tell me its balanced. Its only balanced because either A.) your a terran player. B.) you player lower league games. C.) because you have no idea what your talking about. I think its all 3.
On May 30 2010 16:32 Floophead_III wrote: I don't know why this thread is even open... TvP is one of the most balanced matchups right now, and is incredibly exciting, dynamic, and enjoyable to watch and play. Protoss definitely has the macro advantage and very strong units/mobility. Terran has great synergy and defensive power with tanks/EMP/PF. It's not terribly different from BW, but there's more options for playstyle (bio/biomech/ghostmech/skymech).
Protoss can make use of every branch of the tech tree, even carriers/mothership. This is my worst matchup and I've always found TvP difficult, but with the tank fix and immortal build time nerf I think it reached a state of balance.
In short: quitcherbitchin.
I agree with you saying it's balanced. I personally think everyone whining is doing just that. whining.
However, I cannot agree with you saying every branch can be used. Carriers and mothership just suck way too much to be usable. They are both ridiculously expensive. The mothership is a slow, fat arbiter that simply just sucks because it is too vulnerable to EMP and vikings and is pretty much a giant waste of resources.
I've used carriers like...once in an actual 1v1 ladder game. It was void ray into carrier and it was pretty decent awesome. However, it only worked because the Terran was going very marauder heavy and skimped on the marines and didn't start pumping vikings until it was too late. Carriers simply get neutralized way too easily. If Vikings don't kill them fast enough, stimmed marines can easily destroy your interceptors faster than you can rebuild them. It's a shown fact that dps is increased in SC2. AI has also improved. Marines can effectively almost focus fire individual interceptors by default due to the AI and wipe out your interceptors ridiculously fast. Carriers are not very viable unless you get lucky.
@Silverforce: To counter a very early marauder push you have to scout it and pump enough immortals or have good force field micro. Without that you will die.
@Fatlip: I watched the replay and I play Protoss and was consistently at the highest ladder level (plat pre-patch 13 and diamond now). PvT is harder for P. Almost no doubt about it. But that does not mean imbalance. Look at BW. In the D-C (iccup) range of BW PvT, that matchup was significantly harder for T than it was for P. Yet there was no real imba issues with it (although there is a lot of whining about it). D-C range of iccup is easily top tier diamond level play (just fyi if you never played iccup). The fact of the matter is, below the progamer level, certain matchups will always be harder for particular races due to the amount of micro/macro/mechanics required to play that matchup. This does not, however, suggest imbalance in any way shape or form.
I agree with you saying it's balanced. I personally think everyone whining is doing just that. whining.
However, I cannot agree with you saying every branch can be used. Carriers and mothership just suck way too much to be usable. They are both ridiculously expensive. The mothership is a slow, fat arbiter that simply just sucks because it is too vulnerable to EMP and vikings and is pretty much a giant waste of resources.
@Fatlip: I watched the replay and I play Protoss and was consistently at the highest ladder level (plat pre-patch 13 and diamond now). PvT is harder for P. Almost no doubt about it. But that does not mean imbalance. Look at BW. In the D-C (iccup) range of BW PvT, that matchup was significantly harder for T than it was for P. Yet there was no real imba issues with it (although there is a lot of whining about it). D-C range of iccup is easily top tier diamond level play (just fyi if you never played iccup). The fact of the matter is, below the progamer level, certain matchups will always be harder for particular races due to the amount of micro/macro/mechanics required to play that matchup. This does not, however, suggest imbalance in any way shape or form
This is true, but your leaving out the huge factor between BW and sc2. Protoss air. High end PvT's (at least when i played competitivly) Was usualy Goon/reaver drop P, Turtle slowpush/expand T. P had to hold his own, limit the expansions from T (Mech didnt have a mineral dump other than vultures, because goons straight owned rines). sc2=marine mineral dump) The P HAD to get the resources and limit T's gas, so he could arb recall/statis Or go carriers for the win. Sc2, there is no arb.(mothership is so bad) and carriers arnt nearly as viable, even moreso with the marines being the new mineral dump. That truley does say "hey, its PvT from BW...now your Goons suck, and his teir 1.5 will rape close to all ground...oh yeah your Air sucks too. LoL.) I know im nerd raging, at 3 in the morn. But i truely beleive its justified.
On May 30 2010 16:32 Floophead_III wrote: I don't know why this thread is even open... TvP is one of the most balanced matchups right now, and is incredibly exciting, dynamic, and enjoyable to watch and play. Protoss definitely has the macro advantage and very strong units/mobility. Terran has great synergy and defensive power with tanks/EMP/PF. It's not terribly different from BW, but there's more options for playstyle (bio/biomech/ghostmech/skymech).
Protoss can make use of every branch of the tech tree, even carriers/mothership. This is my worst matchup and I've always found TvP difficult, but with the tank fix and immortal build time nerf I think it reached a state of balance.
In short: quitcherbitchin.
I agree with you saying it's balanced. I personally think everyone whining is doing just that. whining.
However, I cannot agree with you saying every branch can be used. Carriers and mothership just suck way too much to be usable. They are both ridiculously expensive. The mothership is a slow, fat arbiter that simply just sucks because it is too vulnerable to EMP and vikings and is pretty much a giant waste of resources.
Carriers are a good unit to make when fighting ghostmech. I have not seen them used vs bio armies, but if it's like BW then interceptors will die to marines quickly. Motherships have their uses. People don't play lategame very often on US server but motherships do serve a great defensive role (recall army back after attacking to deal with a counterattack), or as a means to split up an army in an engagement (also pretty much required vs ghostmech since 200/200 ghostmech is unbeatable on the ground). We'll see motherships used a lot in the future, trust me on it.
If a PvT MU is harder for the P, doesn't that mean there's an inherent imbalance?
Similar to statements like, "P can win, but only if they play much better". If one player has to be a lot better than the other to win, it clearly shows an imbalance with the MU.
As for early Marauder push, you scout T, he has a barrack with tech lab going down and a refinery. You kinda assume a reaper rush so u get a stalker. After this early period, there's no more scouting option for awhile as the T is walled off. Plus, that first 2 marauders gets to your base b4 the robo is even finished building. You either a stalker out, and was getting your cybernetics or a stalker and a zealot. 1 stalker die horribly to 1 marauder. The zealot has no chance with conc shell research while the marau was heading to your base. It's just so tough, as it happens when as P, you kinda have your pants down not knowing what to expect since u can't scout it and happens too early for any counter options. I like the sentry FF ramp idea to hold them off tho.
On May 30 2010 17:11 SilverforceX wrote: If a PvT MU is harder for the P, doesn't that mean there's an inherent imbalance?
Similar to statements like, "P can win, but only if they play much better". If one player has to be a lot better than the other to win, it clearly shows an imbalance with the MU.
As for early Marauder push, you scout T, he has a barrack with tech lab going down and a refinery. You kinda assume a reaper rush so u get a stalker. After this early period, there's no more scouting option for awhile as the T is walled off. Plus, that first 2 marauders gets to your base b4 the robo is even finished building. You either a stalker out, and was getting your cybernetics or a stalker and a zealot. 1 stalker die horribly to 1 marauder. The zealot has no chance with conc shell research while the marau was heading to your base. It's just so tough, as it happens when as P, you kinda have your pants down not knowing what to expect since u can't scout it and happens too early for any counter options. I like the sentry FF ramp idea to hold them off tho.
You're an idiot. 1 stalker will beat 1 marauder since you have ramp advantage and can get at least 1 free hit.
Actually i JUST tested that on unit tester map. With stalker on top of ramp and getting in 1 shot first.
Guess what happened? Stalker kills marauder, but not b4 marauder shoots his shell and both unit KO each other. I did it 5 times, all 5 times, double KO.
With no ramp advantage, Marauder wins everytime.
If they early rush with 1 marauder, you got 1 stalker out. But their 2nd marauder is on its way quicker than your 2nd stalker finishes and further reinforcement.
On May 30 2010 17:11 SilverforceX wrote: If a PvT MU is harder for the P, doesn't that mean there's an inherent imbalance?
Similar to statements like, "P can win, but only if they play much better". If one player has to be a lot better than the other to win, it clearly shows an imbalance with the MU.
As for early Marauder push, you scout T, he has a barrack with tech lab going down and a refinery. You kinda assume a reaper rush so u get a stalker. After this early period, there's no more scouting option for awhile as the T is walled off. Plus, that first 2 marauders gets to your base b4 the robo is even finished building. You either a stalker out, and was getting your cybernetics or a stalker and a zealot. 1 stalker die horribly to 1 marauder. The zealot has no chance with conc shell research while the marau was heading to your base. It's just so tough, as it happens when as P, you kinda have your pants down not knowing what to expect since u can't scout it and happens too early for any counter options. I like the sentry FF ramp idea to hold them off tho.
You're an idiot. 1 stalker will beat 1 marauder since you have ramp advantage and can get at least 1 free hit.
Silverforce is right unfortunately, 1 stalker v. 1 marauder will result in either both units dying (or so close to death one more shot will finish them) or marauder will win. Concussive shells are really strong and I still think they should revert to the first nerf...but that's besides the point of this thread.
Doesn't ghostmech include a lot of marines as your mineral dump though? I can't think of any current Terran build besides some sort of marauder early game all-in that doesn't include a large enough number of marines to destroy interceptors. I know there are variants where hellions with pre-igniter is used as the mineral dump instead, but I find that heavy marine variants are more common. Against those, carriers are pretty useless.Also, because of the MULE, Terran will have so many minerals it's not ridiculous to say that Terran can produce both hellions and marines as their mineral dump. Regarding the mothership, I still think it sucks because as a defensive unit it's just ridiculously expensive. I would rather just build another expo and have spare 400 gas. Admittedly I have not used/seen mothership play much (if at all) so I'll give it a (very very very small) benefit of doubt.
@Fatlip: I agree that Protoss air, which played a HUGE role in BW PvT has been enormously gimped. However, goons were never that strong against marines in BW, it was the fact that storm and reavers raped marines almost instantaneously, coupled with the fact that vultures were amazingly strong against zealots and had 3 mini-nukes resulted in vultures being the mineral sink. Marines are much more powerful now with the extra default 5 hp and the extra 10 on top of that with the upgrade. However, storm is also much easier to use and colossi shred marines pretty well also. It's a tough matchup, that's to be sure, but I would not go so far to say it's imba.
On May 27 2010 23:19 Inori wrote: I somewhat agree with topic starter and I also think that these replay requests are useless, because you can always find a flaw in players game and say "see, that's why you lost, terrans are okay!!" unless said player is like top pro level, which he's not. Problem is, terrans also do these mistakes and still come out with easy wins, but everybody will skip that little fact.
It's funny how my stats are like 65-70% vs Prot and Zerg and 20% vs Terran. Must be terran skills yo.
And yes I've played Terran a lot of times in 2v2 and 1v1 customs (both against diamond level players), I own my main race with said strats even without knowing BOs well.
uh hurrr durrr ok.
i have the exact opposite stats, doesn't mean shit.
It seems to me that it's very possible for protoss to beat terran at higher levels, but protoss has to outplay terran by a much higher margin than terran has to outplay protoss - there is much less room for error.
well something i find pretty annoying is the terran trying to argue that the game is balanced by just saying that there are no terrans winning major tournaments. for the fact i´d like to recommend an interview with idra which could provide a fairly simple answer to that topic. just google, i think it was on fraggster. to put it short, he just said, that there just aren´t any good terran players, just like in bw. where terran was just not popular outside of korea. the players kept their respective races, protoss and zerg, throughout the change from bw to sc2. thus only a few good terran players are playing sc2.
and btw. bratok owned hasu fairly easy. and tlo´s terran vs nony was just beyond good.
i dont take any responsibility for this statement cause it´s not my opinion for I´m not a scene-junkie like most of you might be. but it´s still to consider.
another fact is, that most high-level terrans won´t play neither 1/1/1 nor tanks.
and the problem right now really is that the protoss can win, but only with the terran just playing total one-dimensional.
if terrans start using their medivacs. no protoss nexus will be safe anymore cause you need 10times more defense than vs. the goodold vulture drop.
i mean just a raven can stop photon canons and stalkers from shooting, thus defending your nexus will be a huge task itself.
On May 30 2010 19:19 gdroxor wrote: It seems to me that it's very possible for protoss to beat terran at higher levels, but protoss has to outplay terran by a much higher margin than terran has to outplay protoss - there is much less room for error.
If the terran goes mech, and the protoss catches him unsieged, then the game will be over. One little error and terran is dead.
Is bio really that strong people? I switched to mech because bio was so weak in my opinion.. Storms, collossae and mass forcefields just destroy bio. If terran goes bio and the protoss does a nice voidray rush, then he will be dead if he doesn't go gretorps' ghostbuild. A medivac drop can be prevented if you use observers.
Depends if P army was full of stalkers or not. If its stalker heavy, siege tanks non siege does stupid high dps and will easily clean house vs stalkers.
Note: this is not a personal attack, just something i noticed, which is that even terrans which start by stating that the matchup is balanced, end up saying something that implies that it is infact imbalanced.
On May 30 2010 14:33 Ryuu314 wrote: Personally, I feel that there is no imbalance, but apparently a lot of people do and they are discussing it.
On May 30 2010 16:37 Ryuu314 wrote: PvT is harder for P. Almost no doubt about it. But that does not mean imbalance.
(Wasn't it also harder for zerg and terran before the patches?)
On May 30 2010 14:50 aznhockeyboy16 wrote: I'm not saying the game is completely balanced,
[...]
Just take a note from the top players, there is no such thing as imbalance. And if there is, it will be fixed.
And regarding how blizzard balances, because someone was saying blizz only looked to statistics, there was a blizzard worker that posted on battle.net saying that it's not true they only look at statistics, and that all the developers play, some on semi-pro levels, that they're in contact with many pro players and read forums and fansites. So it's not only statistics, which is good, because they have limited use.
On May 30 2010 17:11 SilverforceX wrote: If a PvT MU is harder for the P, doesn't that mean there's an inherent imbalance?
Similar to statements like, "P can win, but only if they play much better". If one player has to be a lot better than the other to win, it clearly shows an imbalance with the MU.
As for early Marauder push, you scout T, he has a barrack with tech lab going down and a refinery. You kinda assume a reaper rush so u get a stalker. After this early period, there's no more scouting option for awhile as the T is walled off. Plus, that first 2 marauders gets to your base b4 the robo is even finished building. You either a stalker out, and was getting your cybernetics or a stalker and a zealot. 1 stalker die horribly to 1 marauder. The zealot has no chance with conc shell research while the marau was heading to your base. It's just so tough, as it happens when as P, you kinda have your pants down not knowing what to expect since u can't scout it and happens too early for any counter options. I like the sentry FF ramp idea to hold them off tho.
You're an idiot. 1 stalker will beat 1 marauder since you have ramp advantage and can get at least 1 free hit.
don't call people idiots for being wrong about something like that, particularly when you're inclined to be just as wrong. it makes you seem like, well.... an idiot
On May 30 2010 21:32 ensis wrote: wow i never heard such a ridiculous statement. as if blizzard would favor a race on purpose -.-
What statement?
Personally, I think that marauder rushing is the scariest thing a terran can do to me. Having concussive shells almost by default with those close to non existant research time and costs, it makes the defense really really tough. The problem is that you dont really have a good answer to it as protoss. Zealots do not work at all obviously, sentries aren't useful either because they don't get time to charge energy. Therefore, even if you have two gateways up, the most powerful defense is ... probes. Other than that I've been pretty successful with NonY's 2gate 1 stargate build. It gives you an early scout to be prepared and containes your opponent long enough for you to get your natural going. From this point on you can react to every army composition and just outproduce your enemy. Also I think that robo tech is really not woth it in PvT. The colossus is easily countered with vikings or tanks and the immortal is a bad unit all together. So, the best army composition for the protoss is a big army of gateway units supported by air and templar later on.
And if the terran decides to turtle hardcore, then you have to crap on efficiency and just get a lot of stuff.
almost every terran go marauders early with at least 2 rax. Protoss unit of choice in this situation -> probes, zealot, and sentry.
Stalkers are so bad vs. marauders, so they aren't used. Zealots can take a beating from those marauders, it takes a lot of micro and luck but if you can use force field to get a couple of hits off you can survive.
But this leaves me with a dilemma.. I want to know whether to zealot/sentry or get a stalker first to kill scout (also in case of reapers)
Any thoughts? Thanks all. I am platinum so i need all the advice i can get.
On May 31 2010 00:36 wxwx wrote: From the most recent PvT pro level replays:
almost every terran go marauders early with at least 2 rax. Protoss unit of choice in this situation -> probes, zealot, and sentry.
Stalkers are so bad vs. marauders, so they aren't used. Zealots can take a beating from those marauders, it takes a lot of micro and luck but if you can use force field to get a couple of hits off you can survive.
But this leaves me with a dilemma.. I want to know whether to zealot/sentry or get a stalker first to kill scout (also in case of reapers)
Any thoughts? Thanks all. I am platinum so i need all the advice i can get.
On May 30 2010 17:11 SilverforceX wrote: If a PvT MU is harder for the P, doesn't that mean there's an inherent imbalance?
Similar to statements like, "P can win, but only if they play much better". If one player has to be a lot better than the other to win, it clearly shows an imbalance with the MU.
As for early Marauder push, you scout T, he has a barrack with tech lab going down and a refinery. You kinda assume a reaper rush so u get a stalker. After this early period, there's no more scouting option for awhile as the T is walled off. Plus, that first 2 marauders gets to your base b4 the robo is even finished building. You either a stalker out, and was getting your cybernetics or a stalker and a zealot. 1 stalker die horribly to 1 marauder. The zealot has no chance with conc shell research while the marau was heading to your base. It's just so tough, as it happens when as P, you kinda have your pants down not knowing what to expect since u can't scout it and happens too early for any counter options. I like the sentry FF ramp idea to hold them off tho.
For the love of God people, these imbalances WILL EXIST.
SUCK IT UP.
They were even present in BW and the game did perfectly fine. Try to eliminate this imbalance and you're crossing the line of homogenization of the races.
On May 29 2010 10:25 KillerPenguin wrote: 1750 plat protoss and i was 55% to win against p, 60% against z, and only 45% against t. Perhaps more importantly in 200 games I never had a match against toss where I felt like there was nothing I could have done differently to win, only had 1 match against a zerg where I felt like that, but I have had about 5 matches against terran where after watching the replay and thinking about it for a while I still felt like there was nothing I could have done to win. So I'm not sure if 2k+ players have the same difficulty against each other or what but I see Huk do fine and I'm left baffled when I hear 1800 terran players complain tvp is unbalanced.
sorry this is a bit off topic. But is there a way to actualy check your win % other than just estimating? sorry for the off topic noob post...
FatLiP it's not very hard, you can go to match history, and just add up the wins/losses and do some basic division. If you don't care about specific MUs then the game tells you how many games you have played and how many you have won so it's just basic division from there
On May 30 2010 17:21 SilverforceX wrote: Actually i JUST tested that on unit tester map. With stalker on top of ramp and getting in 1 shot first.
Guess what happened? Stalker kills marauder, but not b4 marauder shoots his shell and both unit KO each other. I did it 5 times, all 5 times, double KO.
With no ramp advantage, Marauder wins everytime.
If they early rush with 1 marauder, you got 1 stalker out. But their 2nd marauder is on its way quicker than your 2nd stalker finishes and further reinforcement.
What I mean is that as the marauder approaches the ramp you can get a free shot or two cause you're standing to the side of the ramp, ergo he has to pass by you to get up. Also vs early bio pressure there's nothing wrong with pulling 2-3 probes since you're ahead by about that much anyways. It's like stopping a 9 pool in BW TvZ. You pull 3 scv to block your ramp vs lings but that's fine. Obviously you don't want to block the ramp since your probes will just end up dying but if you use them to surround/do extra damage/tank a hit or two you're so far ahead.
Also I want to know what timing on rax/gateway you're using as the basis for that last statement. Standard gateway timing is 11 PvT. If you're going 12 or 13 gate you're taking a slight risk vs early pressure like that since your core is significantly later. 9 Rax or earlier is a cheese and you can afford to pull quite a few probes as defense.
@ryuu: In ghostmech you don't keep making marines. Hellions are your mineral sink past earlygame. You really want about 4-8 marines initially to not autolose vs voidray rush, early stalker, or immortal rushes. By the time carriers are out (which is going to be like 20 minutes or something at least) you shouldn't see any marines on the field. Vikings are your primary AA in ghostmech, with ghosts doing a little support. Thors are decent vs gateway units but pretty garbage vs robo now that cannons are basically worthless.
Yep, stalker on top of ramp or side, gets in 1 free shot. Both units double KO each other.
Marauder builds a lot faster than a stalker which means his 2nd one is at ur base b4 your 2nd stalker finish. This is just standard 11 gate timings.
I've seen some diamond replays where the early marauder push failed.. simply because the T for some stupid reason forgot to research conc shell and died to zealots. Conc shell just happens too fast, makes early zealots so obsolete. This is the main problem. Stalkers are armored, marauders are very good at anti-armored (and being cheaper, faster to build). So if u are going to pump stalkers to counter early marauder push, you'll lose.
ps. With upgrades for both units, a marauder kills a stalker with 40 hp left. If stalker gets 1st shot in, marauder has 21 hp left. Stalker dps just blows.
This is a 40 min Diamond lvl pvt match in which the Terran went MMM+thor. The protoss player (me) Did just about everything right, Went Blink stlaks, Charge lots, HT Storm( + feedbacks on all medvacs and thors) Upgrades, IMMO's, Carriers, void rays, sent FF, and block drop, Took map control, Out expanded, Out armied, Out micro'd. Sniped expansions (yes even his NAT!!!) and still JUUUUST managed to eek out a win. All of that...just to compete with a A-move "micro" MMM terran. Watching this replay is obvious by far who the better player is, Yet he almost pulls it off.
Watch it Terrans. Tell me Terran is not op.
P.s. yes i know i made a few mistakes. And yes my hotkeys arent used much. I have a broken left hand (boxer fracture) and it makes hotkeying very very difficult. so there is the reason behind only 3 hotkeys.
I'm going to say straight off the bat that I have not yet watched your replay, as I simply don't have the time to do it today (plan on it tomorrow, when I have time to sit and watch it throughly) but from your description of the match it seems you have a logic error.
You are playing handicapped (quite literally, since you're effectively missing a hand) and therefore it is significantly harder for you to play a game which requires active participation from both hands. Now, it is safe to assume that your opponent had two functional hands and was using them no? So, in your situation, you are suggesting that struggling to beat an opponent who is playing at full capacity while only able to operate around half capacity yourself means the opponent is overpowered?
Does that sound right to you, that it will be balanced when you only have to half play to beat someone who is fully playing?
Again, this may all be unfounded and I will happily edit/remove this post after watching the replay tomorrow.
This is a 40 min Diamond lvl pvt match in which the Terran went MMM+thor. The protoss player (me) Did just about everything right, Went Blink stlaks, Charge lots, HT Storm( + feedbacks on all medvacs and thors) Upgrades, IMMO's, Carriers, void rays, sent FF, and block drop, Took map control, Out expanded, Out armied, Out micro'd. Sniped expansions (yes even his NAT!!!) and still JUUUUST managed to eek out a win. All of that...just to compete with a A-move "micro" MMM terran. Watching this replay is obvious by far who the better player is, Yet he almost pulls it off.
Watch it Terrans. Tell me Terran is not op.
P.s. yes i know i made a few mistakes. And yes my hotkeys arent used much. I have a broken left hand (boxer fracture) and it makes hotkeying very very difficult. so there is the reason behind only 3 hotkeys.
so... this convinced me of nothing... you were on equal bases most of the game, you had a third which wasn't used very well since a lot of the probes did absolutely nothing... they were literally just sitting by the nexus... the first fight was ridiculous since you used no forcefields, and no guardian shield so you lost badly against what should have been an even strength army. only watched up to the first 20 minutes, since it was clear that at that point you should have won since the other guy had no army after your second wave was sent in and you had about 8 stalkers and an immortal. why you didn't end it there is beyond me. and I don't even know where your observer was, mostly due to black minimap, but it wasn't looking at his army, and wasn't doing much. you only had 2 ht which was enough to hit about half of his army, which was really good, don't get me wrong, but a couple more would have been nice, as opposed to the sentries you had, which did literally nothing.
but, I agree, the terran sucked. just... you did too.
On May 29 2010 17:32 yarkO wrote: I think Recall should come from Warp Prism with a costly research at the support Bay.
You can play coy all you want and talk about dropping a Terran (lol?) but when is a Protoss going to have a fleet of Prisms ready to drop into his base? You think a single Prism with 2-4 units + Warpgate offers a legitimate threat to the turtle-Terran? Mules will recover any economic loss you inflict and you leave yourself open to a counter-attack.
Imagine how any SC1 PvT would play out if Protoss never got Recall, because that's how this match-up is shaping up.
The key I've found against Terran is to hit their refineries, and not their workers. Terran typically have absurd amounts of minerals anyway, and halting gas mining cuts out LOTS of tank production.
I have a temporary solution that's working pretty well
just switched to terran for ladder, and my win rate is a bit off but I'm still able to get some solid victories off tvp and tvz vs anyone who is rank 1 and doesn't have a big name.
=) it's fun being on the other side, give it a try- tell yourself it's only beta, and try something new.
i play terran and find tvp pretty exciting nowadays. map control can swing so frequently in the early game and there are many feasible timing pushes. i like to 3 rax stim marauder push and i oftentimes have a hard time with zealot immortal, or toss players using high ground to defend and fast expanding (map dependent obviously), or void ray.
in the end though, i think it comes down to flanking terrans before they can siege. i find myself using an absurd amount of energy just scanning toss armies to make sure my ghost/tanks are in good position. it barely matters what your unit composition is as toss. if terran is already sieged and can anticipate where you will be for EMP, the battle is lost.
Actually after I try it on the other side (using Terran), I improve as Protoss in PvT. Now I have a much better understanding of the Terran defense.
Usually when you lose to the terrible terrible damage seiged tank, you feel bad, you feel you have lost a lot. But in fact, if you managed to kill that one tank, that game may already be over, since Terran is usually very weak at least until they have 2 bases.
Abuse back doors and abuse the slow movement speed of Terran. Observer is like the most important unit in this match up, once you spot he move out to push, immediately go out and engage in the middle of the map. If you let his tank siege up and contain you, its gg.
Terran is easily my worst matchup. I went through and tallied my latest 100 or so games, and apparently:
Terran: 37.5% win Zerg: 67% win Protoss: 72% win
Of course personal win/loss ratios don't really mean anything, this is just to note my frustration, and illustrate how incredibly lopsided these different matchups are for me, at least.
I'm currently a 600 diamond player, and I am still totally confused as to what I should do against terran. Against an equally upgraded cost/food army, unless the Terran makes a massive blunder, protoss ground vs ground is always demolished. I've fought 50 food vs 50 food, 100 vs 100, and 200 vs 200, generally the Terran wins with at least half his forces intact.
I used to be able to hold my own using a two void ray timing push (along with about a dozen gateway units) because the voidrays could easily melt the wall in at the ramp/take out bunkers without being shot in return by Marines, but now that extra range is gone it doesn't work. After dozens of games of trial and error, I have just given up trying any cute new strategies and have resorted to a simple 4 gate push hoping I'd catch the Terran teching up and have a 20-30 food unit advantage. Of course, if the Terran has a bio army that is roughly the same cost, they'll wipe the floor with the gateway units at my ramp, at their ramp, or in the open.
I think my main issue is with marines. They are very cheap, have a small hit box so can cram more in the same area, are massable, and do insane damage at decent range. One marine has basically the same dps of a sentry or stalker - and costs a third as much. Then they can stim and make it even worse.
Well of course, just use aoe right?! Well, the problem is that there are only two real sources of aoe (lolarchons) for Protoss. Colossus is countered by the easily massed marauder, or tanks, and high templar are owned by emp so hard. And it's not as if ghosts are out of the way tech to get against Protoss either.
As far as I can tell, Terran have ground superiority, air superiority, can fast expand at will if they wanted pumping nothing but marines and throwing down some bunkers cause there's no tech rush that can beat pure marines (wtf?).
Terran is easily my worst matchup. I went through and tallied my latest 100 or so games, and apparently:
Terran: 37.5% win Zerg: 67% win Protoss: 72% win
Of course personal win/loss ratios don't really mean anything, this is just to note my frustration, and illustrate how incredibly lopsided these different matchups are for me, at least.
I'm currently a 600 diamond player, and I am still totally confused as to what I should do against terran. Against an equally upgraded cost/food army, unless the Terran makes a massive blunder, protoss ground vs ground is always demolished. I've fought 50 food vs 50 food, 100 vs 100, and 200 vs 200, generally the Terran wins with at least half his forces intact.
I used to be able to hold my own using a two void ray timing push (along with about a dozen gateway units) because the voidrays could easily melt the wall in at the ramp/take out bunkers without being shot in return by Marines, but now that extra range is gone it doesn't work. After dozens of games of trial and error, I have just given up trying any cute new strategies and have resorted to a simple 4 gate push hoping I'd catch the Terran teching up and have a 20-30 food unit advantage. Of course, if the Terran has a bio army that is roughly the same cost, they'll wipe the floor with the gateway units at my ramp, at their ramp, or in the open.
I think my main issue is with marines. They are very cheap, have a small hit box so can cram more in the same area, are massable, and do insane damage at decent range. One marine has basically the same dps of a sentry or stalker - and costs a third as much. Then they can stim and make it even worse.
Well of course, just use aoe right?! Well, the problem is that there are only two real sources of aoe (lolarchons) for Protoss. Colossus is countered by the easily massed marauder, or tanks, and high templar are owned by emp so hard. And it's not as if ghosts are out of the way tech to get against Protoss either.
As far as I can tell, Terran have ground superiority, air superiority, can fast expand at will if they wanted pumping nothing but marines and throwing down some bunkers cause there's no tech rush that can beat pure marines (wtf?).
Exactly my thoughts.
Terran has the other advantage that it can switch Tech in a matter of seconds (by just lifting and switching addons), whereas Protoss needs a lot more deep restructuration. Usually protoss can only switch if at more than 2 bases. Then again this opens a huge timing where the P will be VERY weak and die to any push.
I don't ask for easy roflstompingTerrans, I just don't understand why my bigger army gets demolished by an inforerior army when Protoss units cost SO much more.
well just to add my voice to this, terran as P is my hardest match up BY far, when I see zerg I think free win, when I see terran I think ggnore... yes diamond. Ok its hyperbole but you get the picture The problem is just that its impossible to scout before commiting to either robo or stargate. Yes you CAN use hallucinations but before warp gates? If you wait for hallucination scout before teching, its too late to tech.
This makes the match up extremely frustrating and unfun. Im not saying its imba, terrans units are too cheap, have to much dps, or whatever. That might be the case but Im not a good enough player to comment on something so delicate.
But in my experience as a toss playing terran is just boring and frustrating and an uphill battle from the moment it begins.
Terran dominate ground with good tank usage. Going ground vs this combo is just auto-lose. Any colossus + stalker heavy army will auto lose. The tanks don't even have to be in siege mode. Normal mode they do insane dps vs armored targets and have good range. The only effective way to counter them is a LOT of charge zealots with HT support (hope they don't EMP your HT!). Ofcourse, this leaves you weak to air. But it's not so bad, as banshees while doing great ATG dps, are pretty weak vs a few phoenixes and vulnerable to feedback.
Just saw a great replay (painuser vs incontrol), terran went ghostmech with a lot of tanks and hellions with viking support. Protoss kept losing his big ground armies, even with a lot of immortals and HT. Terran was too passive and really gave P a lot of expo and allowed fast tech change, P massed VR and won. If he wasn't so passive, would have steamrolled. Scan and tank/rine drop would have taken care of all the expo before ground forces can arrive.
Basically it's all down to tanks and ghosts. Tanks nullify all ground threats. Ghost nullify all counters. Anything else just requires some scouting and you can switch addons for rapid counters.
On May 31 2010 18:02 SilverforceX wrote: Terran dominate ground with good tank usage. Going ground vs this combo is just auto-lose. Any colossus + stalker heavy army will auto lose. The tanks don't even have to be in siege mode. Normal mode they do insane dps vs armored targets and have good range. The only effective way to counter them is a LOT of charge zealots with HT support (hope they don't EMP your HT!). Ofcourse, this leaves you weak to air. But it's not so bad, as banshees while doing great ATG dps, are pretty weak vs a few phoenixes and vulnerable to feedback.
Just saw a great replay (painuser vs incontrol), terran went ghostmech with a lot of tanks and hellions with viking support. Protoss kept losing his big ground armies, even with a lot of immortals and HT. Terran was too passive and really gave P a lot of expo and allowed fast tech change, P massed VR and won. If he wasn't so passive, would have steamrolled. Scan and tank/rine drop would have taken care of all the expo before ground forces can arrive.
Basically it's all down to tanks and ghosts. Tanks nullify all ground threats. Ghost nullify all counters. Anything else just requires some scouting and you can switch addons for rapid counters.
You don't seem to understand how mech works. "Terran was too passvie or else he would have steamrolled" -_-
You can't just run all over the place with a lot of tanks and be super aggressive because they are so immobile. Thats like the easiest way to lose going mech.
On May 31 2010 18:11 De4ngus wrote: You don't seem to understand how mech works. "Terran was too passvie or else he would have steamrolled" -_-
You can't just run all over the place with a lot of tanks and be super aggressive because they are so immobile. Thats like the easiest way to lose going mech.
Oh yeah, and while Terran has the best defenses in the game (read: turrets and planetary fortress), denying HIS expos are a pain in the ass, too.
You usually have to commit your army.
You can't just go mass air to counter his tanks, as soon as he'll scout your multiple stargates, he'll either go mass vikings or mass marines, and you're screwed since any of those hard counters uncharged VRs, either are which cost way less than VRs.
In that game, most of the P expo wasn't even defended. Terran could have done a tank/rine drop and demolished it then scoot. Immobile? Don't be silly. Medivacs are cheap and fast. The T player basically had all his expo securely defended, anytime P pushed, the ground forces were demolished.
there might be some hard timing windows for protoss (terran doesnt have it easy either, look on maka getting vr rushesd 2 times in row) but after techs to charge storm/colo i would say P has advantage, bio is practically useless (or atleast very uneffective) and by going mech u give toss total map control and free hand to do w/e he wants (aka mass exp and void rays) sure people say vikings " counter" them but do u rly think that terran will have enough gas from only natural to have good ground army, ghosts and mass vikings to fight VRs ?
Please, could someone explain me where my major mistakes were ? I got demolished in every single battle. It wasn't even close and I tried my very best in this one. I really dont know what to do. Went HTs and got some nice storms off, switched to colossi but they were just useless. I thought that I was ahead before the first big battle in the middle.
@ofcourse There was no early game VR attacks, which would have been very effective for sniping SCVs at his natural and keeping him building MT. You also got an Observer way late and never really scouted much with it anyways. He made multiple expansions which could easily have been picked off if you had researched Blink and threw in a few more Stalkers. Your attack at 20 min mark would have been better if your Zealots were in front and not being blocked by your other forces though you should have hit him from another angle and forced him into a choke with FF. I think a few DT would also have been really good here and forced him to spend money on Ravens or Scans which would cut back on his Mules.
On June 01 2010 02:39 ZombieKitty13 wrote: @ofcourse There was no early game VR attacks, which would have been very effective for sniping SCVs at his natural and keeping him building MT. You also got an Observer way late and never really scouted much with it anyways. He made multiple expansions which could easily have been picked off if you had researched Blink and threw in a few more Stalkers. Your attack at 20 min mark would have been better if your Zealots were in front and not being blocked by your other forces though you should have hit him from another angle and forced him into a choke with FF. I think a few DT would also have been really good here and forced him to spend money on Ravens or Scans which would cut back on his Mules.
This post made me laugh SOOO HARD ROFL.
Yeah, basically you're asking him to get fast VRs + Fast Observer + Blink stalkers + DTs + Gateway units.
Fast VR? I never implied fast VR but surely he had plenty of time for a couple. And fast Observer? There was none at all before about 15-20 mins into the replay. I wouldn't call that fast really. As for DT along with Stalkers I don't see why not during that game. He made no Tanks at all. He never made any Ravens for PDD / Detection. After about 15 mins he barely even had any marines and no Vikings / Thors until 20+ mins when he made a couple after scouting Colossi.
Simple fact is Toss player should have had more Observers (or at least more fully utilized the one he did make) and picked his attacks better. Against an almost pure ground army he had no VR which would have made a world of difference there. He played into Terrans hands almost every attack that replay and let him macro as much as he wanted to.
On June 01 2010 03:01 ZombieKitty13 wrote: Fast VR? I never implied fast VR but surely he had plenty of time for a couple. And fast Observer? There was none at all before about 15-20 mins into the replay. I wouldn't call that fast really. As for DT along with Stalkers I don't see why not during that game. He made no Tanks at all. He never made any Ravens for PDD / Detection. After about 15 mins he barely even had any marines and no Vikings / Thors until 20+ mins when he made a couple after scouting Colossi.
Simple fact is Toss player should have had more Observers (or at least more fully utilized the one he did make) and picked his attacks better. Against an almost pure ground army he had no VR which would have made a world of difference there. He played into Terrans hands almost every attack that replay and let him macro as much as he wanted to.
Did you even ever play Protoss ?
You can't follow 3 tech path like that with Protoss unless you got the entire map for youself.
And once you choose a path, you are severly commiting yourself into it until you get yourself another expo.
Fyi, incontrol (P), outexpanded painuser, he tried to harass with dark templars but
1) he couldn't go through the middle because of Painuser's army, 2) he tried with a warp prism drop, but it's impossible, because of painusers anti-air near his command centers
So there go many of P's harassment tools.
On the other hand, Incontrol harassed without any problems with helions and vikings.
So as i said before, when you say "the protoss has to be smart and harass, avoinding the terran's army." Of course, but the terran is not dumb either, and will harass too. And on top of the the terran doesn't have the issue of having to avoid the protoss army.
As i said before, if a race to win depends on harassing, then it should have better harassment tools than the other race. So in the case of TvP 1) P has to avoid T's army or happens what the video shows 2) P has no better tools for harassing than T.
If painuser happened to have a raven, then incontrol would be in the dark, while painuser would still be able to be prepared for an incoming attack with the sensors towers and have the tanks in siege mode already.
What could have he done more? Remember it's not as easy for a protoss to change tech as it is for a terran.
I saw that incontrol game and theres no way to kill terran. you could win in bw because of recall. now you cant recall or do aynthing to siege tanks,. Ghosts counter every protoss combo. Its I think feedback needs to have a radius so you can snipe ghosts like they can snipe hts, and toss needs arbiters back. Then it would be fair.
@Scotchy Terran player wasn't even pushing. Toss player had an expansion going and was free to pretty much do whatever he wanted. I'm not saying he should mass a ton of VRs or DT but really would he have been hard pressed to make a couple of either and do some drops on the SCV line while making more Zealots and Colossi? Some simple harass would have gone a long way I think.
VRs are still incredibly incredibly good. I get them (or fake getting them) every single game. I am about 10-2 PvT in Diamond League.
I am seeing a tendency among the terrans to overcompensate for VRs. I often build a starport and don't get a VR with it. They go pure marine, or marine+turrent, or marine+viking and camp in their base waiting for the attack. I just expo then.
Terran has the best scouting the game, but almost no terran uses scans to look for my army. They see the starport and assume I have a VR or two about to attack them.
After they eventually venture out, or you harass their front and stop them from expoing, you should notice their unit composition shifting into marauder again (or tank sometimes), then I might get 2 VRs at the 8-9minute mark and start harassing their main in the back with the VRs, and from the front with stalker/sentry. This usually keeps them bottled up long enough to have two bases fully developed and a lot of units warping in.
Then tech to storm, or mass warpgates, get a mothership (that worked well 1 game!) or whatever build you prefer.
Terrans will eventually stop overreacting so much, but in the meantime it seems like easy street for toss. Terrans seem stuck to a reactionary mode in PvT with much stricter punishments if they do not have enough marines.
Fyi, incontrol (P), outexpanded painuser, he tried to harass with dark templars but
1) he couldn't go through the middle because of Painuser's army, 2) he tried with a warp prism drop, but it's impossible, because of painusers anti-air near his command centers
So there go many of P's harassment tools.
On the other hand, Incontrol harassed without any problems with helions and vikings.
So as i said before, when you say "the protoss has to be smart and harass, avoinding the terran's army." Of course, but the terran is not dumb either, and will harass too. And on top of the the terran doesn't have the issue of having to avoid the protoss army.
As i said before, if a race to win depends on harassing, then it should have better harassment tools than the other race. So in the case of TvP 1) P has to avoid T's army or happens what the video shows 2) P has no better tools for harassing than T.
If painuser happened to have a raven, then incontrol would be in the dark, while painuser would still be able to be prepared for an incoming attack with the sensors towers and have the tanks in siege mode already.
What could have he done more? Remember it's not as easy for a protoss to change tech as it is for a terran.
What could he have done? Well for one thing, in this battle he could've tried flanking? Split your force and go around the completely undefended back with a bunch of charglots to destroy the tanks while pushing in the front with immortals?
Just like in BW, if you try to 1a2a3a into a choke point, however large or small, that has been secured by tanks you will always most sure get raped. Flanking and positioning is very key. If you rewatch the battle, you will notice that the Painuser's flank was completely unguarded and his tanks were very vulnerable to charglots.
Because Terran have no trouble doing the same thing. Choke? No prob. Ramp? No prob. Set up some tanks, throw down a scan. Now the choke/ramp belongs to the terran.
On June 01 2010 03:57 Phael wrote: Because Terran have no trouble doing the same thing. Choke? No prob. Ramp? No prob. Set up some tanks, throw down a scan. Now the choke/ramp belongs to the terran.
That is how PvT works, and has always worked.
P likes wide areas in order to surround a T army. You only position outside of a T choke in order to harass/pick off a few units, then withdraw and set up a flank.
Choosing when and where to fight is a major part of SC1 and SC2. If you want to complain about specific maps, then maybe you should create a map imba thread.
To be honest, I'm surprised there's so much debate about all this stuff. It seems so obvious to me that terran is very overpowered in the current game version, be it vs protoss or zerg, and if this version is the one that goes live, I'm sure terran will win a large majority of the games a few weeks or months later. Let's face it, most of terrans right now aren't using half of the race features (I can't understand why I see ghosts maybe in 30% of games against protoss, building ghosts is basically halving the protoss army and avoiding all its abilities). When all terrans will learn and use the semi optimal builds, they will roll over everyone, they already do it by a-moving basically...
There are so many things crazy in terran right now, EMP is the most overpowered ability of the game BY FAR and I can't believe it's still in the game in its current form, the combination of a low cost huge armor+hp melee unit with a powerfull snare AND siege tanks is totally overpowered too, and basically an I Win button on some of the current maps right now, their harassing capabilities are simply the best of all races (have fun vs terrans who can multitask helions drone roasting + banshee harass + marau/tank drops ..). Colossus are hard countered very efficiently by vikings, HTs are useless because of EMP (and LOL terran players don't tell us to micro feedback to avoid EMP, feedback and EMP are both insta, same range, but EMP is AoE while feedback is single which means that at equal skills, you CANT avoid EMP as protoss), all gateways are uber crushed by tanks, your only hope is gimmick stuff (like DTs) or huge mistakes by the terran. And on top of all that, they can basically go all tech trees very quickly and switch between all units almost as fast as zergs.
I don't want to whine, I don't care so much because I'm convinced the game will be patched quickly after live but honestly, I don't see how average experienced players can't see how much terran is powerfull in the current build, it seems really so obvious to me..
Its all because blizzard just check stats. Not many terran's + high ranked ones - BUFF T until there are. Same thing is happening with protoss - a lot of winning protoss - nerf p. They never actually look deeper into it all imo.
Fyi, incontrol (P), outexpanded painuser, he tried to harass with dark templars but
1) he couldn't go through the middle because of Painuser's army, 2) he tried with a warp prism drop, but it's impossible, because of painusers anti-air near his command centers
So there go many of P's harassment tools.
On the other hand, Incontrol harassed without any problems with helions and vikings.
So as i said before, when you say "the protoss has to be smart and harass, avoinding the terran's army." Of course, but the terran is not dumb either, and will harass too. And on top of the the terran doesn't have the issue of having to avoid the protoss army.
As i said before, if a race to win depends on harassing, then it should have better harassment tools than the other race. So in the case of TvP 1) P has to avoid T's army or happens what the video shows 2) P has no better tools for harassing than T.
If painuser happened to have a raven, then incontrol would be in the dark, while painuser would still be able to be prepared for an incoming attack with the sensors towers and have the tanks in siege mode already. What could have he done more? Remember it's not as easy for a protoss to change tech as it is for a terran.
in this particular game inc failed and let 3 ghost crush his whole economy without even noticing it, 2 canons at every exp easily stop this kind of harass (terrans put turrets everywhere from the same reason and trust me they arent free)
incontrol won 4:2 including 30 min games where he crushes mech + ghost, toss imba ?
[url blocked] watch it maybe u wil learn something
this thread reminds me of bnet forums, considering the topic title and insane amount of biased whine im really disappointed on mods they didnt close this thread yet.
If a Terran is massing tanks, hellions, and vikings, you need to go mass blink stalker, and then get two stargate void ray. If you keep making blink stalkers while taking your third, the Terran cannot do anything. Until they have a critical number of siege tanks (12-15), the Terran cannot just push out and set up in the middle of the map, blinking directly over the tanks and using some immortals will stop that.
The problem is later, once they reach that critical mass of tanks. No ground army can effectively deal with that, unless you get a really, really nice flank off on the Terran, which is very difficult in SC2. However if you have been massing void rays, they will decimate large numbers of vikings as soon as they are charged.
On June 01 2010 05:18 Dawme wrote: To be honest, I'm surprised there's so much debate about all this stuff. It seems so obvious to me that terran is very overpowered in the current game version, be it vs protoss or zerg, and if this version is the one that goes live, I'm sure terran will win a large majority of the games a few weeks or months later. Let's face it, most of terrans right now aren't using half of the race features (I can't understand why I see ghosts maybe in 30% of games against protoss, building ghosts is basically halving the protoss army and avoiding all its abilities). When all terrans will learn and use the semi optimal builds, they will roll over everyone, they already do it by a-moving basically...
There are so many things crazy in terran right now, EMP is the most overpowered ability of the game BY FAR and I can't believe it's still in the game in its current form, the combination of a low cost huge armor+hp melee unit with a powerfull snare AND siege tanks is totally overpowered too, and basically an I Win button on some of the current maps right now, their harassing capabilities are simply the best of all races (have fun vs terrans who can multitask helions drone roasting + banshee harass + marau/tank drops ..). Colossus are hard countered very efficiently by vikings, HTs are useless because of EMP (and LOL terran players don't tell us to micro feedback to avoid EMP, feedback and EMP are both insta, same range, but EMP is AoE while feedback is single which means that at equal skills, you CANT avoid EMP as protoss), all gateways are uber crushed by tanks, your only hope is gimmick stuff (like DTs) or huge mistakes by the terran. And on top of all that, they can basically go all tech trees very quickly and switch between all units almost as fast as zergs.
I don't want to whine, I don't care so much because I'm convinced the game will be patched quickly after live but honestly, I don't see how average experienced players can't see how much terran is powerfull in the current build, it seems really so obvious to me..
Why would people complain? Yes tanks will completely annihilate armies that try to go through chokes, but that's how it's always been in both SC1 and 2. And?
You complain about EMP but gloss over feedback. Here's a hint. Feedback is godly. Feedback is ridiculously good. Feedback + storm = amazing.
Here's a simple fact. At HIGH levels of play: Protoss and Zerg dominate. Just go look at X number of tournaments or high level players.
all these garbage 1v1 maps do nothing to help balance either. i hate steppes, blistering sands etc because they promote shorter games involving banshees or some other boring shit like that. ive had a couple decent games but theres so many chokes and ramps and all this bullshit on most maps that its just annoying to attack. if they removed that shit from the middle of temple it would be a much better map.
i remember a tvz like 4-5 patches ago when he had 4 bases and i had 4 bases and we had these huge battles in the middle with broodlords and ultras and all that jazz. was a very fun game, reminded me of bw tvz.
On June 01 2010 05:18 Dawme wrote: To be honest, I'm surprised there's so much debate about all this stuff. It seems so obvious to me that terran is very overpowered in the current game version, be it vs protoss or zerg, and if this version is the one that goes live, I'm sure terran will win a large majority of the games a few weeks or months later. Let's face it, most of terrans right now aren't using half of the race features (I can't understand why I see ghosts maybe in 30% of games against protoss, building ghosts is basically halving the protoss army and avoiding all its abilities). When all terrans will learn and use the semi optimal builds, they will roll over everyone, they already do it by a-moving basically...
There are so many things crazy in terran right now, EMP is the most overpowered ability of the game BY FAR and I can't believe it's still in the game in its current form, the combination of a low cost huge armor+hp melee unit with a powerfull snare AND siege tanks is totally overpowered too, and basically an I Win button on some of the current maps right now, their harassing capabilities are simply the best of all races (have fun vs terrans who can multitask helions drone roasting + banshee harass + marau/tank drops ..). Colossus are hard countered very efficiently by vikings, HTs are useless because of EMP (and LOL terran players don't tell us to micro feedback to avoid EMP, feedback and EMP are both insta, same range, but EMP is AoE while feedback is single which means that at equal skills, you CANT avoid EMP as protoss), all gateways are uber crushed by tanks, your only hope is gimmick stuff (like DTs) or huge mistakes by the terran. And on top of all that, they can basically go all tech trees very quickly and switch between all units almost as fast as zergs.
I don't want to whine, I don't care so much because I'm convinced the game will be patched quickly after live but honestly, I don't see how average experienced players can't see how much terran is powerfull in the current build, it seems really so obvious to me..
Why would people complain? Yes tanks will completely annihilate armies that try to go through chokes, but that's how it's always been in both SC1 and 2. And?
You complain about EMP but gloss over feedback. Here's a hint. Feedback is godly. Feedback is ridiculously good. Feedback + storm = amazing.
Here's a simple fact. At HIGH levels of play: Protoss and Zerg dominate. Just go look at X number of tournaments or high level players.
I suggest you look at the tournaments yourself.
Protoss has never dominated at high levels of play after the warp gate nerfs. Terran players are starting to catch up to Protoss in terms of wins very fast, especially since Terrans have learned that MMM bioball is not the best strat.
Zerg, however, has dominated since day 1 and is continuing to dominate.
On June 01 2010 07:31 oxxo wrote:You complain about EMP but gloss over feedback. Here's a hint. Feedback is godly. Feedback is ridiculously good. Feedback + storm = amazing.
That's ridiculous. Ever tried to feedback anything other than Medivacs or Ravens ? Well, sniping a ghost hidden in an MM ball with Feedback is like trying to find the keys of your car after a good night of drinking. NO f*ckin way.
On June 01 2010 07:31 oxxo wrote:Here's a simple fact. At HIGH levels of play: Protoss and Zerg dominate. Just go look at X number of tournaments or high level players.
Just quit with that shitty fake argument already. What pure Terran player has the background (or even close to) of Tester to beat him ?
It's basically that. There's not yet any top notch Terran players around. People are messing with the races, they're trying to find strategies.
Why must it be that P or Z have to struggle against Terran at equal level of skill, or do a billion multitasking, a billion macro/micro and a zillion units. Protoss is not Z to be able to pump out units like a mad machine.
Siege tanks are way deadlier and unmanageable in SC2 because of the smart AI and the no overkill stuff. So yeah you can't go through chokes, that means basically on a lot of maps like steppes or lost temple, once the terran has contained you, it's game over, you can't do anything about it. The game between incontrol and painuser is a good illustration of that fact, off course incontrol just 1a and indeed it's normal that he died. But anyways, he could not have broken this containment no matter how much he tried without a HUGE number of void rays. Since tech switch is long and very costly, it was game over as soon as incontrol took this central position.
Like I told, it's fucking ridiculous to compare feedback and EMP. You CANNOT feedback a ghost IF the terran is not sleeping. Both spells are insta, both spells have the same range but EMP is AoE which means it is WAY WAY easier / faster to use. And even if you manage to feedback a ghost before he EMPs, terran armies have like 5 or 6 ghost nowadays. Now if you tell me you are able to feedback 5 or 6 ghosts before one of them use EMP, I must say you're a way better player than me. Nerf the EMP range to 6 or 7 and it's balanced. Right now, it's not, feedback is not a solution to emp if the terran is not asleep. And i don't even mention the fact that the one who casts EMP can be cloaked. As of today, there are NO solutions against EMP for protoss other than taking it on the smallest number of units he can (which is generally 70 80% vs 5+ ghosts) and trying to live through it. Is that fair ?
I don't think tournaments are a good way to judge the overall balance of a game to be honest, but if you want to go this route, what I'm seeing is terrans play rapidly evolving during the last weeks and the ones who are starting to use the full race potential are more and more winning (TLO and Maka during the last tournaments I watched were very good for example). What I would like to see is the TvZ / PvZ winrates in diamond level games that last more than 8 mins (because cheese stuff does not matter, it's a special case). And I would like to see the evolution of this number during the next weeks / months without patches. That would be an interesting statistic but you and I won't see it ever. So we can only judge by our own feelings and mine is that terran has the potential to make one sided games where their opponents can't do anything to win after a certain time on the current version with the current map pool. That's it.
If the terran entrenches themselves in a key location (ie, by the choke outside your base) then its extraordinarily difficult to break out. That is to say, you've most likely lost the game. In other words, it's like sc1. If you let yourself get contained by a terran and concede the map, then you're as good as dead
Some serious noob whining in this thread. The moment EMP is nerfed is the moment that Toss will build nothing but immortals and the moment that tanks/thors will no longer be used.
Steppes of war and close spawns on lost temple really favors Terran. Metalopolis really favors Z/P. We all know this already. Blame the maps, not the units.
The game is played extremely similarly to BW. If a Toss or Zerg army attacks a well set-up Terran army, he will get annihilated. Yes, Tanks are better now, but they also cost 25% more gas. Hellions cost 33% more than vultures, are slower, and don't have free mines. Protoss is weaker now in direct confrontations due to stalkers being weaker than goons. However, protoss just got a ton better at harassment due to the warp prism and warp gates (which also acts like awesome anti-harrassment). Protoss got a ton more mobile with teleporting stalkers and reavers replaced by 9range speedy collossi that can abuse cliffs.
Maybe mention those things to sound a bit less biased.
On June 01 2010 07:29 Salv wrote: If a Terran is massing tanks, hellions, and vikings, you need to go mass blink stalker, and then get two stargate void ray. If you keep making blink stalkers while taking your third, the Terran cannot do anything. Until they have a critical number of siege tanks (12-15), the Terran cannot just push out and set up in the middle of the map, blinking directly over the tanks and using some immortals will stop that.
The problem is later, once they reach that critical mass of tanks. No ground army can effectively deal with that, unless you get a really, really nice flank off on the Terran, which is very difficult in SC2. However if you have been massing void rays, they will decimate large numbers of vikings as soon as they are charged.
If terran sees blink stalkers, can't it just get a raven and use pdd?
On June 01 2010 08:42 link0 wrote: Some serious noob whining in this thread. The moment EMP is nerfed is the moment that Toss will build nothing but immortals and the moment that tanks/thors will no longer be used.
did you even know that immortals are MEANT to be hard counters to tanks/thors ?
At its current state, immortals are useless in PvT.
On June 01 2010 08:42 link0 wrote: Some serious noob whining in this thread.
Always nice to start a reply with a catch phrase like that, it sure helps to up the discussion level and to make new friends.
The moment EMP is nerfed is the moment that Toss will build nothing but immortals and the moment that tanks/thors will no longer be used.
You know, "nerf" doesn't mean "annihilate". You can slightly adjust things to make better balance. Everyone was whining like crazy about void rays, they received a slight nerf, they're still used and nobody whines anymore. Isn't the game better ? I think so. You can reduce a bit the range of emp, you can modify it so it removes shield only, or a fixed amount of shield / mana, there are plenty of solutions to keep the spell very powerfull but not so game deciding as it is right now...
Steppes of war and close spawns on lost temple really favors Terran. Metalopolis really favors Z/P. We all know this already. Blame the maps, not the units.
Indeed the map suck (even if I don't see how P is favored on metalopolis while terran can control one of the central gold spot and easily defend it but who cares. Maps are part of the problem, I agree with this and that's why I mentionned the current map pool
The game is played extremely similarly to BW. If a Toss or Zerg army attacks a well set-up Terran army, he will get annihilated. Yes, Tanks are better now, but they also cost 25% more gas. Hellions cost 33% more than vultures, are slower, and don't have free mines. Protoss is weaker now in direct confrontations due to stalkers being weaker than goons. However, protoss just got a ton better at harassment due to the warp prism and warp gates (which also acts like awesome anti-harrassment). Protoss got a ton more mobile with teleporting stalkers and reavers replaced by 9range speedy collossi that can abuse cliffs.
Maybe mention those things to sound a bit less biased.
To be honnest, you lost me there. Who cares about what changed between bw and sc2 ? The whole game changed. It's a new game, get over it and forget about sc1. Judge the balance from the matches you played on sc2. There are so many inside mechanics that are different between both games that comparing them is pointless in my opinion.
On June 01 2010 08:42 link0 wrote: Some serious noob whining in this thread. The moment EMP is nerfed is the moment that Toss will build nothing but immortals and the moment that tanks/thors will no longer be used.
Steppes of war and close spawns on lost temple really favors Terran. Metalopolis really favors Z/P. We all know this already. Blame the maps, not the units.
The game is played extremely similarly to BW. If a Toss or Zerg army attacks a well set-up Terran army, he will get annihilated. Yes, Tanks are better now, but they also cost 25% more gas. Hellions cost 33% more than vultures, are slower, and don't have free mines. Protoss is weaker now in direct confrontations due to stalkers being weaker than goons. However, protoss just got a ton better at harassment due to the warp prism and warp gates (which also acts like awesome anti-harrassment). Protoss got a ton more mobile with teleporting stalkers and reavers replaced by 9range speedy collossi that can abuse cliffs.
Maybe mention those things to sound a bit less biased.
So basically you're repeating what everyone already said. Protoss has to outmacro, outmicro the Terran and pray to Allah that the two armies never collide head-on.
Protoss has never dominated at high levels of play after the warp gate nerfs. Terran players are starting to catch up to Protoss in terms of wins very fast, especially since Terrans have learned that MMM bioball is not the best strat.
Zerg, however, has dominated since day 1 and is continuing to dominate.
Protosses Whitera, Nani, Tester?
I think those guys dominated alot of tournaments dont they? Or is it the TL, HDH, Altitude invatationals and Zotac not high level play?
Protoss has never dominated at high levels of play after the warp gate nerfs. Terran players are starting to catch up to Protoss in terms of wins very fast, especially since Terrans have learned that MMM bioball is not the best strat.
Zerg, however, has dominated since day 1 and is continuing to dominate.
Protosses Whitera, Nani, Tester?
I think those guys dominated alot of tournaments dont they?
We don't need examples of Protoss winning tournaments at the pro level.
What we need is anecdotal evidence of Terran dominating with little or nothing that can be done to stop them.
And please... No replays, only theorycrafting and exaggerations.
That way we keep the thread going in a snow ball of denial and excuses.
Protoss has never dominated at high levels of play after the warp gate nerfs. Terran players are starting to catch up to Protoss in terms of wins very fast, especially since Terrans have learned that MMM bioball is not the best strat.
Zerg, however, has dominated since day 1 and is continuing to dominate.
Protosses Whitera, Nani, Tester?
I think those guys dominated alot of tournaments dont they? Or is it the TL, HDH, Altitude invatationals and Zotac not high level play?
add todays huk win, totally raping morrow and tlo to the point tlo even decided to switch from terran to zerg
Protoss has never dominated at high levels of play after the warp gate nerfs. Terran players are starting to catch up to Protoss in terms of wins very fast, especially since Terrans have learned that MMM bioball is not the best strat.
Zerg, however, has dominated since day 1 and is continuing to dominate.
Protosses Whitera, Nani, Tester?
I think those guys dominated alot of tournaments dont they?
We don't need examples of Protoss winning tournaments at the pro level.
What we need is anecdotal evidence of Terran dominating with little or nothing that can be done to stop them.
And please... No replays, only theorycrafting and exaggerations.
That way we keep the thread going in a snow ball of denial and excuses.
Your right, however his post saying that protoss never dominated since the warpgate nerf (that was a billion of patches ago) just baffled me so I was prompted to ask.
I really think a lot of the problems with Terran being as powerful as they are now is to do with the maps. In theory, flanking and surrounding the Terran sounds good, but its almost impossible to pull off with majority of the current maps. There just isn't enough area space in order make use of effective flanking. I see a lot of terran players saying "just don't attack straight on duh" but seriously, the small maps, the amount of narrow valleys with choke points/ramps in almost every map just forces Protoss to have to go head on more often then they would like. Once a Terran secures a vital area/choke point, its almost GG every single time.
If the map pool doesn't change, the only fair solution I can think of (without nerfing Terran too much) is buffing certain protoss units, I'm thinking particularly the warp prism. The warp prism has got to be one of the most useless units in my personal opinion. The medivac/overlord add so much to each of their respective races - but the 'new' shuttle and their fancy temporary pylon ability rarely (if ever) plays any sort of useful role. And no, its honestly not because players aren't using it enough, its just not feasible most of the time. Its expensive, slow, and incredibly fragile. The fact that you have to research the speed upgrade for it at the robotics bay is just a joke. If Protoss had medivacs, I bet the heal ability would have to be researched lol =p
I don't think Terran players would complain too much if Warp Prisms got a (major) buff - it gives a skilled Protoss a chance to make something happen if they get contained. It needs to be cheaper (either that or can carry more units), faster and a lot more durable. Then tactiful drops against siege tanks at the back might actually be feasible without getting instantly shot down by vikings/marines.
On June 01 2010 07:56 Scotchy wrote: That's ridiculous. Ever tried to feedback anything other than Medivacs or Ravens ? Well, sniping a ghost hidden in an MM ball with Feedback is like trying to find the keys of your car after a good night of drinking. NO f*ckin way.
If you're going to make an argument about how the potential of a race isn't being maximized, you can't in the same breath say that a pretty straightforward action for another race is too hard. Because while feedbacking ghosts is indeed difficult, it's entirely reasonable for a mechanically strong Protoss player to do it.
On June 01 2010 07:56 Scotchy wrote: Why must it be that P or Z have to struggle against Terran at equal level of skill, or do a billion multitasking, a billion macro/micro and a zillion units. Protoss is not Z to be able to pump out units like a mad machine.
You could say the same thing about low-mid level Protoss in Brood War. Up until even B level on ICCup, the reduced mechanical demand for Protoss is very significant. Terran at D level (which is about the skill level of most of Diamond atm) requires far more multitasking and micro to be able to compete with Protoss at that level, which, comparatively, can just "1a2a3a". But at levels beyond that balance seems to play out reasonably.
We're not currently at a level equivalent to ICCup B level in SC2. You can't evaluate eventual balance based on current mechanical difficulty. Because Brood War proves very clearly that one race being more mechanically demanding at mid-levels does not equate to that race being imbalanced at higher levels.
I really don't know why this thread has gotten as big as it has, but I really dont find a problem at semi-high PvT level (I say semi-high because im high diamond (500ish rating atm with 28-9 stats), but most of the top players rarely play ladder anymore anyway), and we're not yet seeing terrans sweep every major tournament at the highest level.
Whilst there's a lot of theorycraft going on in this thread, until we have statistics that show terran are facesmashing the other races left and right there's no reason to nerf a race that right now the top players are struggling with, if we look in the vacuum as most of these replies have been that simply army vs army terran smashes protoss with Tank+bio balls, you do realize that tank + vulture had the EXACT same dynamic in broodwar, yet that matchup is still considered Protoss favored.
Personally i think the emp vs feedback dynamic is fine, yeah they get aoe, and maybe a small range reduce on the emp cast range and making snipe instant cast with the same range instead would silence some of the whining, the battle will still come down to army positioning, and if u group your templar close enough (and your army for that matter) that 2-3 emps can completely decimate your ability to storm/feedback, then you deserve to lose.
Also, to the people whining about how its impossible to even spot the ghosts in a big mm ball.... Pro tip: Turn on health bars, marines/marauders don't have mana...
i think mid game is fine with p v t. late game in diamond league is the problem.... nothing to do that can surprise a terran player to do a tech switch
EMP is a hard counter to protoss. It's basically an AoE damage and energy drain, instantly. It's like throwing down a psi storm AND several feedback at once. Except you can move out of a psi storm, and you have to micro feedback if you wish to hit more than 1 unit. JUST spend a moment critically thinking about this.
A few other bits:
- Ghost are alot quicker to get than HT, and cheaper to tech to. - Ghosts come with EMP default. HT needs to spend time and a lot of resources to research psi storm. Basically, the default ghost ability is a lot better means they are useful right away and cheaper in investment. - Ghosts are quite quick moving and can cloak. So it makes taking them out a lot more difficult compared to taking out HT (why are they so freaken slow??).
Protoss has never dominated at high levels of play after the warp gate nerfs. Terran players are starting to catch up to Protoss in terms of wins very fast, especially since Terrans have learned that MMM bioball is not the best strat.
Zerg, however, has dominated since day 1 and is continuing to dominate.
Protosses Whitera, Nani, Tester?
I think those guys dominated alot of tournaments dont they?
We don't need examples of Protoss winning tournaments at the pro level.
What we need is anecdotal evidence of Terran dominating with little or nothing that can be done to stop them.
And please... No replays, only theorycrafting and exaggerations.
That way we keep the thread going in a snow ball of denial and excuses.
Best post in tl history.
We get it, you guys are having trouble with the matchup. Get over it. Where are the high level Protoss players to back you up? Oh right, they are too busy winning tournaments against Terran to post in this ridiculous thread.
On June 01 2010 09:42 Opinion wrote: What we need is anecdotal evidence of Terran dominating with little or nothing that can be done to stop them.
You set a request that is so far fetched that of course it will probably never be satisfied. If the game was such in a way imbalanced that "terran dominated with little to nothing to stop them", then these 13 patches would be fruitless and made by incompetents don't you agree? That's the same as asking for us to find you a reply where terran is invincible. No one is saying Terran is invincible, just harder to beat than the other races, which makes it imbalanced. No race should be harder or easier, and require more or less skill than the others to beat. If the game was balanced, which is the point, then winning a game would only depend on the diffrence of the player's skill and perhaps luck.
The Problem is that most players are going for big clashes atm, and that's a win for a terran with tanks / ghost + anything. Stop doing that and try to out multi task him, play more sc1 style
i just wanted to chime in that DT or HT are my biggest headaches when I play TvP. Rushing DT is pretty much a surefire way to secure an expansion while denying your opponents.
On June 01 2010 09:42 Opinion wrote: What we need is anecdotal evidence of Terran dominating with little or nothing that can be done to stop them.
You set a request that is so far fetched that of course it will probably never be satisfied. If the game was such in a way imbalanced that "terran dominated with little to nothing to stop them", then these 13 patches would be fruitless and made by incompetents don't you agree? That's the same as asking for us to find you a reply where terran is invincible. No one is saying Terran is invincible, just harder to beat than the other races, which makes it imbalanced. No race should be harder or easier, and require more or less skill than the others to beat. If the game was balanced, which is the point, then winning a game would only depend on the diffrence of the player's skill and perhaps luck.
you are just pulliing facts out of your ass, its hard to play tvp for terran as well, there are many possible cheeses, vrs are always a nigtmare, toss has map control, storm anal rapes bio, P can see your army comming due the obs, reposition and easily be praperad for push, terran needs to pay attention on every step 1 emp too late and you whole army dies under few storms. Sitting at natural and turtling is no way overpowered toss easily can take whole map and tech to whatever he wants then flood you with waves of limits, who cares it dies if you can build next army asap. Its the way it looked in sc bw and nobody cried but now wave of newcomers from other games who have no idea how to play rts complain and make ridiculous topics even thought everything proves otherwise(look on tournament results or tvp win rotio).
On June 01 2010 09:42 Opinion wrote: We don't need examples of Protoss winning tournaments at the pro level.
What we need is anecdotal evidence of Terran dominating with little or nothing that can be done to stop them.
And please... No replays, only theorycrafting and exaggerations.
That way we keep the thread going in a snow ball of denial and excuses.
You set a request that is so far fetched that of course it will probably never be satisfied. If the game was such in a way imbalanced that "terran dominated with little to nothing to stop them", then these 13 patches would be fruitless and made by incompetents don't you agree? That's the same as asking for us to find you a reply where terran is invincible. No one is saying Terran is invincible, just harder to beat than the other races, which makes it imbalanced. No race should be harder or easier, and require more or less skill than the others to beat. If the game was balanced, which is the point, then winning a game would only depend on the diffrence of the player's skill and perhaps luck.
Lol!!! Did you notice the sarcasm in Opinion's post?
Worst SC2 PvT thread ever. Mods please save us or this thread will forever get bumped! Great post btw Opinion.
On June 01 2010 21:17 Cashout wrote:you are just pulliing facts out of your ass, its hard to play tvp for terran as well, there are many possible cheeses,
Yeah because fast marauder is not cheese, fast reaper is no cheese they're imba deep strats yo.
On June 01 2010 21:17 Cashout wrote: vrs are always a nigtmare,
VRs are kicked by Vikings, and a handful of marines destroy uncharged VRs as well. Plus VRs are T2 units whereas marines are T1 and you can get twice as fast vikings due to reactor mechanism.
On June 01 2010 21:17 Cashout wrote: toss has map control,
Where the fuck do you take that from ? Map control is very game specific. There's no such thing as "Z/P/T has map control every game over Z/P/T". T has the best defences in game, actually. If anyone can have map control, it's T since it can siege anywhere and no one can do shit about it.
On June 01 2010 21:17 Cashout wrote: storm anal rapes bio,
From which you can go away in a matter of second with stim. EMP is instant and actually does MORE damage PLUS renders sentries, HTs and Phoenixes completely useless.
On June 01 2010 21:17 Cashout wrote: P can see your army comming due the obs,
What a fucking joke, ever heard of sensor towers ? You can't do shit about them and T can see you coming from like a freaking billion miles away. Once he sees his map pinging he's just gotta throw a scan to see exactly what you have and what your goal is. Oh wait, that's too much attention needed. Right, Terran just has to siege up put turrets, queue everything, afk, come back, and steamroll.
You're just telling dumbshit.
You people are taking Terrans as dumb computer AI. Terran players have a brain, too. The thing is only that Protoss has NO REAL COUNTER to anything Terran can throw at you, whereas EVERY freaking Protoss unit is hard countered by virtually ANY terran unit.
Simple maths, Terran ground > Protoss ground by a huge margin. Terran air > Protoss air by a huge margin. Terran > Protoss.
EPT
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can someone give me some replays with rly good terrans that lose with proxy fast marauder?
By battle i meant including the void rays btw.![[image loading]](http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/1919/terrain001.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/2946/sensortoweringame.jpg)
