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PVT unbalance in diamond league - Page 3

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Deleted User 61629
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
1664 Posts
May 27 2010 15:40 GMT
#41
--- Nuked ---
m3rciless
Profile Joined August 2009
United States1476 Posts
May 27 2010 15:44 GMT
#42
On May 28 2010 00:40 Inori wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 28 2010 00:38 lolreaper wrote:
if u rly think that tvp is so imbalanced go switch race and try it yourself.

Been there done that. I own my main race as a Terran.



Can i look forwards to some #1 finishes, since terran is so ezmode?
White-Ra fighting!
Slunk
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Germany768 Posts
May 27 2010 15:48 GMT
#43
I open 2 gate stargate every game vs. terran and go for phoenixes. As soon as I scout him to have tanks and marines in the early game, I throw down another gateway, get sentries, zealots and a few stalkers, wait until I have four phoenixes and then you have a really nice timing window when your army just crushes his. You can use this to expand safely while leaving him with no army. Just lift the few tanks and make sure to use guardian shield and force fields. Having marines deal 3 damage per shot is really nice as a toss player.
The key is to keep unit numbers low and gain an early economy advantage. As soon as he gets 10 tanks and 50 marines with upgrades there is nothing you can do because against marines you need splash damage in form of templar or colossus and both get eaten alive by tanks.
the only way I found to win vs. this style is getting 6 bases, 30 gateways and recalling the shit out of him. Not cost effective at all, but it works. The keys is obviously to abuse the immobility of tanks. Like recall your army in his main to kill his production buildings and at the same time blink some stalkers into another base of his.
Driveby
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada16 Posts
May 27 2010 15:55 GMT
#44
If you are worried about EMP on your HTs I have found that hotkeying them then keeping them in a shuttle that is also hotkeyed will keep them from getting EMPd quite effectively.
Almtom
Profile Joined May 2009
Sweden132 Posts
May 27 2010 15:56 GMT
#45
Have you ever considered that your rating pre patch was artificially high since your not that good of a player (hence ure bad performance with zerg) and only since P is such an easy race to execute did u get such an high rating. Now that the game is more balanced ure "easy" strategys dont work as well any more and the faul lies with bad fundamentals on ure part such as low APM, bad micro and macro etc?
PrinceXizor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States17713 Posts
May 27 2010 16:00 GMT
#46
I'd like to reccomend DTs, Hallucinations, Zealots and Pheonies. Hallucinated Immortals still use hardened shield, so they can absorb tons of siege tank shots.
MezmerizePLZ
Profile Joined April 2009
United States30 Posts
May 27 2010 16:02 GMT
#47
As a pretty good T/P user (Definitely 2100+ with either race) I think terran is the best race if played well, but really i think it comes down to the map pool, these maps are all really small I think. The biggest problem I have as a protoss user is fighting vs ghost/mech terran armies, there is no way you can really face it in a straight up fight unless you are way ahead anyway. I find you have to play kinda scrappy against good terrans. mid game mass speed void ray switches vs mech heavy is very strong and is almost an instant win if they don't scout it. Warp prisms are pretty much arbiters. scouting is key. specific build orders for specific maps/positions also helps alot. I acutally use alot of phoenix openings, its safe, gives infinite scouting, some harass, some potentially aggressive follow ups, great map control, denies drops, and is useful vs armies w/ tanks. I usually get 4 of them then stop pumping, depending. w/ 4 of them you can 1 hit scvs which is why i get 4.

I'm really curious how things will change when the maps start being created by competitive players for competitive players. blizzard has done great but LOL at some of the maps. I mean, go play on some of the sc1 maps that have been converted, every one of them is bigger than any map in the 1v1 pool

As a terran player i acutally find TvP tougher than TvZ on alot of the maps. P has alot of abusive/annoying/potentially early game win options but as the game progresses any toss ground army just MELTS in any confrontation. Hellion drops are also ridiculously damaging and good. For me the hardest part of TvP is making sure I don't fall behind from anything in the early stages and to keep an eye out for toss tech switches. I don't really use MM much in this matchup, unless my opponent opened with a starport build.

So yea, I do think Terran currently has the advantage on the blizzard map pool in high level games, but I have a lot of Terran friends that would disagree...
HalfAmazing
Profile Joined May 2008
Netherlands402 Posts
May 27 2010 16:04 GMT
#48
So, uhm, peeps are saying t > p now? Just wanted to make that clear.

p.s.

lulz.
You can figure out the other half.
arb
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Noobville17922 Posts
May 27 2010 16:09 GMT
#49
+ Show Spoiler +
On May 27 2010 23:06 gh0st- wrote:
Hello there! I am also a Protoss player and top 5 in the diamond league. I would like to give you some advice versus the match-up against Terran but first let me tell you something. Starcraft 2 boils down to the basics! Its not about unit vs unit while it surely does matter to an extent. Take my friend for example, he plays Starcraft 2 casually and I could sure beat him with only my stalkers versus his immortals. I said no rush 15 minutes let him pump his immortals while my stalkers, who take 50 damage from Immortals, are also being pumped and I beat him. It goes down to the old saying that "Take a rich man and strip all his money, he will eventually get it back. Take a poor man and give him millions, he will eventually lose it all".

To answer your question lets first go back to the basics. At the start of every match I want you to emphasize on your build. Are you doing the same build every game? If you are not, why not? When you build your pylon do you have 40 minerals? Make that pylon so that after you build it, you have 0 minerals. Do you get supply blocked sometimes? Do you build units and harass with your probe? These are just a few questions that you should pay careful attention to. You have to be consistent on your builds because these small things are the things that separate the PROS and the AMATEURS. How do you think top players in the world consistently stay on top? If these guys are PROS, how come copying exactly their strategy doesn't put you in the #1 Diamond League? It boils down to the basics. These small difference turn into something big over time.

Strategy:
IN ALL 1v1 MAPS (only 2 base location spawns), always get a 10-gate.
** I justify this because you want to open up with a fast stalker harass or defense against reaper.

BUILD ORDER
- 9 Pylon (send probe to build pylon at about 70 minerals near your nexus)

** send this pylon probe to scout for enemy. If he has a barracks building, then he is going reapers or fast marauders with concussive shells. If he has a supply depot and building a barracks that means he is NOT going reapers anytime soon. Just check his base if he has any barracks in it or if its building. If there is not, then he is rushing reapers near your base or marauders. Both are deadly as they can kite all your units. Also if he doesn't have any vaspene geysers, that means you can rule out reapers/marauders early-game.

- 1 Probe
- 10 Gateway
- 2 probes (chrono boost)
- 13 Assimilator
- 2 probes (chrono boost; yes do it again)
- Cybernetics whenever Gateway is up
- 1 probe
- 16 Pylon
- 2 probes (chrono boost)

We want to summon our stalker (chrono boost) ASAP along with researching Warp Gates ASAP. Depending on your scouting of your 9 pylon probe, you will do one of the following:
1) Rally your gateway (summoning a stalker) to enemy base. Do this if no early vaspene or early barracks.
2) Rally your gateway to your mineral line. Do this if you suspect reaper harass.

As soon as stalker builds, build another stalker and chrono boost it.

Your stalker will see one of the following. You will either see a Barracks with Tech Lab or a naked Barracks. Sometimes you might even scout a factory or another barracks.

DO THE FOLLOWING:

If you see a barracks that is naked, send another stalker into his base and keep pumping units. Harass his supply depots/marines that come out to defend. Kill the SCVs that repair. Try to bust in his base. In the mean time you will be transitioning to a 4-gate Warp.

Focus your chrono to your Warp Gate research now. When its about 70%, build 3 more Gateways.

** ITS CRUCIAL TO ALWAYS BUILD PROBES AT YOUR NEXUS. AT LEAST (1) PROBE MUST BE BUILDING AT ALL TIMES.

Proxy pylon near his base. Send a volley of stalkers. If there are some marauders, match 1 zealot vs his marauder to tank the damage so your stalkers don't get demolished. Keep pressuring his front. Get a few sentries if you are in excess of gas. Guardian shield up. Forcefield only if you can block his untis from running away.

This will destroy anyone who is teching to tanks.

Now lets rewind back in time to the first stalker. Lets say your first stalker arrives at his base and HE DOES have a marauder or two. This is a signal to send about 2-3 more stalkers and dance around his supply depots. This will force him to go more marauders. Perfect. We transition to a 3-gate and 1-robo build.

Lets say you weren't able to scout his 3-4 barracks with tech labs with mass marauders because you thought he was going tanks and your stalker volley gets demolished. Lets say we already made a 4-gate without a robo. Don't BUILD a robotics. You cannot upkeep 4 gateways pumping constant units, probes in nexus and another robotics bay. Build a Twilight Council instead and research Hallucination at your Cybernetics. This allows you to blink stalkers and use hallucinated phoenix to scout. Also get Charge from zealots.

Basically same build as above except we are not going to be as aggressive. Always keep your resources to 0 minerals and 0 vaspene. Pump up zealots and sentries at the same time. Then stalkers. Then zealots and sentries.

Your first robo should be an observer chrono boosted.

I mean really this is the general idea of the build. Always assume drops with MMM. Always assume banshees. Always assume reapers in your base. Its pretty much common sense as far as the game goes. If you can't penetrate his front, get a gold expansion as "bait" for him to get out. If you lose it then you can hit his base or at least tell him to come out. If by any means he is outproducing you with a "bigger" force then you are doing wrong with your macro.

ive been goign 13 gate and mostly blaming terran imbalance, and i just did this and wow i had enough units to hold off like every push he made thats pretty great
Artillery spawned from the forges of Hell
Wayem
Profile Joined May 2010
France455 Posts
May 27 2010 16:12 GMT
#50
Hello teamliquid,

As I don't want to make another topic about PvT, I just post here so I can get help about it.

I usually go 10 gate robo and I have A LOT of problems against terran since the beginning of the beta.

Here is my last game on battle net. I know i made a blunder at the beggining with the stalker and I should not have push.

My micro is not good and I try hard to split my army against EMP but it is so so hard...

I am in diamond league, currently 7/1 due to this game but I am not very good as you will see.

Tanks for any feedback, I would really appreciate it.

[image loading]


"who needs micro when you can have more stuff ?" -day9
AlliNPreFlop
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
59 Posts
May 27 2010 16:15 GMT
#51
Imo, toss is weakest race atm.
starcraft911
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Korea (South)1263 Posts
May 27 2010 16:18 GMT
#52
if your Id is bowser on north american i've played you 6 or so times and you did the same thing every time. I FE'd every single game and you didn't do anything about it. My econ kicks in and that's game. Need to expo when i expo or do soemthing about it. force me to make extra bunkers or something... do anything to hurt my econ.
Roflhaxx
Profile Joined April 2010
Korea (South)1244 Posts
May 27 2010 16:31 GMT
#53
Seriously if he turtles up real bad, just macro up, get mothership and vortex his tanks...
A game where the first thing you do is scout with a “worker”. Does that make any sense? Who scouts with a “worker”? That’s like sending out the janitor to perform recon, what general would do that? Retarded game.
TLOBrian
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States453 Posts
May 27 2010 16:34 GMT
#54
On May 28 2010 00:22 m3rciless wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 27 2010 23:12 bargaw wrote:
bioball with vikings is pretty much unbeatable for toss. Adding ghost to mix, makes it GG.

ALL toss units are countered by this combo.


A) Then play terran and go pro, you crybaby

B) HT. The vikings are wasted resources if the P doesn't go air, so i would even say chargelot sentry stalker would work, but with HT, its pretty much guaranteed.

C) Oh and yeah, The biggest imbalance since the start of the beta has been P >> T, from the mouth of blizzard's stats. I doubt that reducing stim and shields by 50/50 swung it so far in the other direction.


A)He probably would, you terran noob.

B)High templar are too much of an investment, and fragile, Plus emp takes them out. Marauders stop zealots from being as effective, and their higher HP allows the high DPS of the marines to be more effective, especially against zealots that have 80HP.

C)Protoss versus Terran was slightly imbalanced at the beginning of beta, but by patch 6-7 Protoss was perfectly balanced with Terran.

D)I'm a random player, and you just enjoy the easy wins. Play Warcraft 3 if you want to have unfair advantages.

Steven Bonnell II is the friggin man.
Bibdy
Profile Joined March 2010
United States3481 Posts
May 27 2010 16:36 GMT
#55
I feel like Terrans aren't being aggressive enough, in general. Its not the same army it was in BW. They've got some amazing harassment and mobility options. Their army generally holds all of the cards on the table, until I get to Void Rays, Immortals and/or High Templars. It feels like they could walk over and stomp all over me at any time they wished during the first 10 minutes of the game, particularly now that 1 Thor can negate my ability to Force Field his army in two on my ramp and I need a very particular combination of Gateway units to take on a simple MM blob.

Not sure what my win rate is against Terran, but the aggressive ones always stomp me. The ones that bunker down and camp let me tech to whatever I want, and then it feels like I'm in for a good match.
bargaw
Profile Joined February 2010
Poland36 Posts
May 27 2010 16:37 GMT
#56
GL teching to HT.

Storm have shitty range, he'll just move back and you'll be left with oom Templars.
Lulz
Shizuru~
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
Malaysia1676 Posts
May 27 2010 16:40 GMT
#57
On May 28 2010 00:28 Duelist wrote:
So i took the liberty of picking two great players, and a battle between a protoss and a terran army. And used the SC2 unit tester map to calculate costs of the units involved.

I chose TLO vs NonY of the HDH invitationals, the battle can be seen here. It will skipp right to the middle of the game, so if you didn't see the game don't watch it



TLO's army:

17 marines, 11 Marauders, 3 ghosts

total cost: 2400m / 725 g / 45 supply

NonY's army:

12 Zealots, 3 immortals, 7 stalkers, 3 sentries

total cost: 2975m / 950g / 56 supply

Results?

10 Marines, 6 marauders and 1 ghost left, all but 1 immortal and 2 stalkers almost dead survived.


and your point is?
Bibdy
Profile Joined March 2010
United States3481 Posts
May 27 2010 16:40 GMT
#58
On May 28 2010 01:37 bargaw wrote:
GL teching to HT.

Storm have shitty range, he'll just move back and you'll be left with oom Templars.


Its got a range of 9. How is that shitty?
Lunares
Profile Joined May 2010
United States909 Posts
May 27 2010 17:03 GMT
#59
Tank balls are actually pretty easy to deal with. Tanks + a few ghosts + ravens/vikings/hellions are dealt with by chargelots + blink. Blinking masses of stalkers around my sieged tanks is EXTREMELY annoying as terran as it just destroys my tank push. If I include a small amount of marauders, get more chargelots or some immortals (and yes it does take micro to not get emp'd)

Something I see a lot of toss players do that they shouldn't is have all their immortals next to each other. Yes I will probably have enough ghosts to spam emp over your entire army but still don't make it easy for me.

If I am going extremely heavy on marauder/tank then go void rays. Without marines vikings will melt to void rays if you micro them correctly, i.e. charge them somehow (either off of a tank or rocks or a building or your own unit). Pheonix are also very useful if they don't have a lot of AA to graviton beam tanks and then move more stalkers in.

if they are bio heavy with just a few tanks then you should be going colossi or HT.

Terran armies are definitely defeatable as toss. If they are just turtling and massing then you should have 3-4 bases to their 2. You have warpgates you can just insta spawn an army if you lose your first battle and then his ghosts won't have much energy now. A toss with a macro advantage over a terran shouldn't lose to much besides a timing push.
arb
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Noobville17922 Posts
May 27 2010 17:10 GMT
#60
On May 28 2010 01:40 Shizuru~ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 28 2010 00:28 Duelist wrote:
So i took the liberty of picking two great players, and a battle between a protoss and a terran army. And used the SC2 unit tester map to calculate costs of the units involved.

I chose TLO vs NonY of the HDH invitationals, the battle can be seen here. It will skipp right to the middle of the game, so if you didn't see the game don't watch it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92ooWe3IBaE#t=4m45s

TLO's army:

17 marines, 11 Marauders, 3 ghosts

total cost: 2400m / 725 g / 45 supply

NonY's army:

12 Zealots, 3 immortals, 7 stalkers, 3 sentries

total cost: 2975m / 950g / 56 supply

Results?

10 Marines, 6 marauders and 1 ghost left, all but 1 immortal and 2 stalkers almost dead survived.


and your point is?

The fact that terran shit is so strong that nony lost a much much higher cost army while terran was left with most all of his units still alive?

did you even read the post?
Artillery spawned from the forges of Hell
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