EPTPVT unbalance in diamond league - Page 16
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ZombieKitty13
4 Posts
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Scotchy
France24 Posts
On June 01 2010 02:39 ZombieKitty13 wrote: @ofcourse There was no early game VR attacks, which would have been very effective for sniping SCVs at his natural and keeping him building MT. You also got an Observer way late and never really scouted much with it anyways. He made multiple expansions which could easily have been picked off if you had researched Blink and threw in a few more Stalkers. Your attack at 20 min mark would have been better if your Zealots were in front and not being blocked by your other forces though you should have hit him from another angle and forced him into a choke with FF. I think a few DT would also have been really good here and forced him to spend money on Ravens or Scans which would cut back on his Mules. This post made me laugh SOOO HARD ROFL. Yeah, basically you're asking him to get fast VRs + Fast Observer + Blink stalkers + DTs + Gateway units. Yeah, sure. We're not Terran. | ||
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ZombieKitty13
4 Posts
Simple fact is Toss player should have had more Observers (or at least more fully utilized the one he did make) and picked his attacks better. Against an almost pure ground army he had no VR which would have made a world of difference there. He played into Terrans hands almost every attack that replay and let him macro as much as he wanted to. | ||
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Scotchy
France24 Posts
On June 01 2010 03:01 ZombieKitty13 wrote: Fast VR? I never implied fast VR but surely he had plenty of time for a couple. And fast Observer? There was none at all before about 15-20 mins into the replay. I wouldn't call that fast really. As for DT along with Stalkers I don't see why not during that game. He made no Tanks at all. He never made any Ravens for PDD / Detection. After about 15 mins he barely even had any marines and no Vikings / Thors until 20+ mins when he made a couple after scouting Colossi. Simple fact is Toss player should have had more Observers (or at least more fully utilized the one he did make) and picked his attacks better. Against an almost pure ground army he had no VR which would have made a world of difference there. He played into Terrans hands almost every attack that replay and let him macro as much as he wanted to. Did you even ever play Protoss ? You can't follow 3 tech path like that with Protoss unless you got the entire map for youself. And once you choose a path, you are severly commiting yourself into it until you get yourself another expo. | ||
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ensis
Germany340 Posts
there is no prob with a robo for obs or immos and a council for blink or charge. but archives and robo bay is just not possible. | ||
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Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
Fyi, incontrol (P), outexpanded painuser, he tried to harass with dark templars but 1) he couldn't go through the middle because of Painuser's army, 2) he tried with a warp prism drop, but it's impossible, because of painusers anti-air near his command centers So there go many of P's harassment tools. On the other hand, Incontrol harassed without any problems with helions and vikings. So as i said before, when you say "the protoss has to be smart and harass, avoinding the terran's army." Of course, but the terran is not dumb either, and will harass too. And on top of the the terran doesn't have the issue of having to avoid the protoss army. As i said before, if a race to win depends on harassing, then it should have better harassment tools than the other race. So in the case of TvP 1) P has to avoid T's army or happens what the video shows 2) P has no better tools for harassing than T. If painuser happened to have a raven, then incontrol would be in the dark, while painuser would still be able to be prepared for an incoming attack with the sensors towers and have the tanks in siege mode already. What could have he done more? Remember it's not as easy for a protoss to change tech as it is for a terran. | ||
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us.insurgency
United States330 Posts
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ZombieKitty13
4 Posts
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maleorderbride
United States2916 Posts
I am seeing a tendency among the terrans to overcompensate for VRs. I often build a starport and don't get a VR with it. They go pure marine, or marine+turrent, or marine+viking and camp in their base waiting for the attack. I just expo then. Terran has the best scouting the game, but almost no terran uses scans to look for my army. They see the starport and assume I have a VR or two about to attack them. After they eventually venture out, or you harass their front and stop them from expoing, you should notice their unit composition shifting into marauder again (or tank sometimes), then I might get 2 VRs at the 8-9minute mark and start harassing their main in the back with the VRs, and from the front with stalker/sentry. This usually keeps them bottled up long enough to have two bases fully developed and a lot of units warping in. Then tech to storm, or mass warpgates, get a mothership (that worked well 1 game!) or whatever build you prefer. Terrans will eventually stop overreacting so much, but in the meantime it seems like easy street for toss. Terrans seem stuck to a reactionary mode in PvT with much stricter punishments if they do not have enough marines. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On June 01 2010 03:32 Duelist wrote: Another jewel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5W-feC0BEjg#t=8m10s Fyi, incontrol (P), outexpanded painuser, he tried to harass with dark templars but 1) he couldn't go through the middle because of Painuser's army, 2) he tried with a warp prism drop, but it's impossible, because of painusers anti-air near his command centers So there go many of P's harassment tools. On the other hand, Incontrol harassed without any problems with helions and vikings. So as i said before, when you say "the protoss has to be smart and harass, avoinding the terran's army." Of course, but the terran is not dumb either, and will harass too. And on top of the the terran doesn't have the issue of having to avoid the protoss army. As i said before, if a race to win depends on harassing, then it should have better harassment tools than the other race. So in the case of TvP 1) P has to avoid T's army or happens what the video shows 2) P has no better tools for harassing than T. If painuser happened to have a raven, then incontrol would be in the dark, while painuser would still be able to be prepared for an incoming attack with the sensors towers and have the tanks in siege mode already. What could have he done more? Remember it's not as easy for a protoss to change tech as it is for a terran. What could he have done? Well for one thing, in this battle he could've tried flanking? Split your force and go around the completely undefended back with a bunch of charglots to destroy the tanks while pushing in the front with immortals? Just like in BW, if you try to 1a2a3a into a choke point, however large or small, that has been secured by tanks you will always most sure get raped. Flanking and positioning is very key. If you rewatch the battle, you will notice that the Painuser's flank was completely unguarded and his tanks were very vulnerable to charglots. | ||
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ZombieKitty13
4 Posts
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Phael
United States281 Posts
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maleorderbride
United States2916 Posts
On June 01 2010 03:57 Phael wrote: Because Terran have no trouble doing the same thing. Choke? No prob. Ramp? No prob. Set up some tanks, throw down a scan. Now the choke/ramp belongs to the terran. That is how PvT works, and has always worked. P likes wide areas in order to surround a T army. You only position outside of a T choke in order to harass/pick off a few units, then withdraw and set up a flank. Choosing when and where to fight is a major part of SC1 and SC2. If you want to complain about specific maps, then maybe you should create a map imba thread. | ||
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Dawme
France58 Posts
There are so many things crazy in terran right now, EMP is the most overpowered ability of the game BY FAR and I can't believe it's still in the game in its current form, the combination of a low cost huge armor+hp melee unit with a powerfull snare AND siege tanks is totally overpowered too, and basically an I Win button on some of the current maps right now, their harassing capabilities are simply the best of all races (have fun vs terrans who can multitask helions drone roasting + banshee harass + marau/tank drops ..). Colossus are hard countered very efficiently by vikings, HTs are useless because of EMP (and LOL terran players don't tell us to micro feedback to avoid EMP, feedback and EMP are both insta, same range, but EMP is AoE while feedback is single which means that at equal skills, you CANT avoid EMP as protoss), all gateways are uber crushed by tanks, your only hope is gimmick stuff (like DTs) or huge mistakes by the terran. And on top of all that, they can basically go all tech trees very quickly and switch between all units almost as fast as zergs. I don't want to whine, I don't care so much because I'm convinced the game will be patched quickly after live but honestly, I don't see how average experienced players can't see how much terran is powerfull in the current build, it seems really so obvious to me.. | ||
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RAZROK
Latvia49 Posts
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Scotchy
France24 Posts
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Cashout
115 Posts
On June 01 2010 03:32 Duelist wrote: Another jewel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5W-feC0BEjg#t=8m10s Fyi, incontrol (P), outexpanded painuser, he tried to harass with dark templars but 1) he couldn't go through the middle because of Painuser's army, 2) he tried with a warp prism drop, but it's impossible, because of painusers anti-air near his command centers So there go many of P's harassment tools. On the other hand, Incontrol harassed without any problems with helions and vikings. So as i said before, when you say "the protoss has to be smart and harass, avoinding the terran's army." Of course, but the terran is not dumb either, and will harass too. And on top of the the terran doesn't have the issue of having to avoid the protoss army. As i said before, if a race to win depends on harassing, then it should have better harassment tools than the other race. So in the case of TvP 1) P has to avoid T's army or happens what the video shows 2) P has no better tools for harassing than T. If painuser happened to have a raven, then incontrol would be in the dark, while painuser would still be able to be prepared for an incoming attack with the sensors towers and have the tanks in siege mode already. What could have he done more? Remember it's not as easy for a protoss to change tech as it is for a terran. in this particular game inc failed and let 3 ghost crush his whole economy without even noticing it, 2 canons at every exp easily stop this kind of harass (terrans put turrets everywhere from the same reason and trust me they arent free) incontrol won 4:2 including 30 min games where he crushes mech + ghost, toss imba ? [url blocked] watch it maybe u wil learn something this thread reminds me of bnet forums, considering the topic title and insane amount of biased whine im really disappointed on mods they didnt close this thread yet. | ||
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EleanorRIgby
Canada3923 Posts
sent 5 stalkers in first instead of immortal aswell I'm sorry toss you cant 1a and cast a couple spells and win every tvp anymore | ||
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Scotchy
France24 Posts
On June 01 2010 06:07 EleanorRIgby wrote:I'm sorry toss you cant 1a and cast a couple spells and win every tvp anymore While Terran actually can... ?Think a little before speaking. | ||
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Salv
Canada3083 Posts
The problem is later, once they reach that critical mass of tanks. No ground army can effectively deal with that, unless you get a really, really nice flank off on the Terran, which is very difficult in SC2. However if you have been massing void rays, they will decimate large numbers of vikings as soon as they are charged. | ||
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