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KillerPenguin
United States516 Posts
On May 29 2010 11:05 FaTLiP wrote: sorry this is a bit off topic. But is there a way to actualy check your win % other than just estimating? sorry for the off topic noob post... Not that I know of. | ||
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STS17
United States1817 Posts
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
On May 30 2010 17:21 SilverforceX wrote: Actually i JUST tested that on unit tester map. With stalker on top of ramp and getting in 1 shot first. Guess what happened? Stalker kills marauder, but not b4 marauder shoots his shell and both unit KO each other. I did it 5 times, all 5 times, double KO. With no ramp advantage, Marauder wins everytime. If they early rush with 1 marauder, you got 1 stalker out. But their 2nd marauder is on its way quicker than your 2nd stalker finishes and further reinforcement.  What I mean is that as the marauder approaches the ramp you can get a free shot or two cause you're standing to the side of the ramp, ergo he has to pass by you to get up. Also vs early bio pressure there's nothing wrong with pulling 2-3 probes since you're ahead by about that much anyways. It's like stopping a 9 pool in BW TvZ. You pull 3 scv to block your ramp vs lings but that's fine. Obviously you don't want to block the ramp since your probes will just end up dying but if you use them to surround/do extra damage/tank a hit or two you're so far ahead. Also I want to know what timing on rax/gateway you're using as the basis for that last statement. Standard gateway timing is 11 PvT. If you're going 12 or 13 gate you're taking a slight risk vs early pressure like that since your core is significantly later. 9 Rax or earlier is a cheese and you can afford to pull quite a few probes as defense. @ryuu: In ghostmech you don't keep making marines. Hellions are your mineral sink past earlygame. You really want about 4-8 marines initially to not autolose vs voidray rush, early stalker, or immortal rushes. By the time carriers are out (which is going to be like 20 minutes or something at least) you shouldn't see any marines on the field. Vikings are your primary AA in ghostmech, with ghosts doing a little support. Thors are decent vs gateway units but pretty garbage vs robo now that cannons are basically worthless. | ||
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SilverforceX
Australia267 Posts
Marauder builds a lot faster than a stalker which means his 2nd one is at ur base b4 your 2nd stalker finish. This is just standard 11 gate timings. I've seen some diamond replays where the early marauder push failed.. simply because the T for some stupid reason forgot to research conc shell and died to zealots. Conc shell just happens too fast, makes early zealots so obsolete. This is the main problem. Stalkers are armored, marauders are very good at anti-armored (and being cheaper, faster to build). So if u are going to pump stalkers to counter early marauder push, you'll lose. ps. With upgrades for both units, a marauder kills a stalker with 40 hp left. If stalker gets 1st shot in, marauder has 21 hp left. Stalker dps just blows. | ||
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STS17
United States1817 Posts
On May 30 2010 16:15 FaTLiP wrote: TO ALL TERRANS WHO THINK TERRAN IS NOT OP. TO ALL TOSS PLAYERS NEEDING GOOD EVIDENCE!!!! THIS REPLAY IS FOR YOU!!! http://www.mediafire.com/?yuinozmgtmg This is a 40 min Diamond lvl pvt match in which the Terran went MMM+thor. The protoss player (me) Did just about everything right, Went Blink stlaks, Charge lots, HT Storm( + feedbacks on all medvacs and thors) Upgrades, IMMO's, Carriers, void rays, sent FF, and block drop, Took map control, Out expanded, Out armied, Out micro'd. Sniped expansions (yes even his NAT!!!) and still JUUUUST managed to eek out a win. All of that...just to compete with a A-move "micro" MMM terran. Watching this replay is obvious by far who the better player is, Yet he almost pulls it off. Watch it Terrans. Tell me Terran is not op. P.s. yes i know i made a few mistakes. And yes my hotkeys arent used much. I have a broken left hand (boxer fracture) and it makes hotkeying very very difficult. so there is the reason behind only 3 hotkeys. I'm going to say straight off the bat that I have not yet watched your replay, as I simply don't have the time to do it today (plan on it tomorrow, when I have time to sit and watch it throughly) but from your description of the match it seems you have a logic error. You are playing handicapped (quite literally, since you're effectively missing a hand) and therefore it is significantly harder for you to play a game which requires active participation from both hands. Now, it is safe to assume that your opponent had two functional hands and was using them no? So, in your situation, you are suggesting that struggling to beat an opponent who is playing at full capacity while only able to operate around half capacity yourself means the opponent is overpowered? Does that sound right to you, that it will be balanced when you only have to half play to beat someone who is fully playing? Again, this may all be unfounded and I will happily edit/remove this post after watching the replay tomorrow. | ||
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aznhockeyboy16
United States558 Posts
On May 30 2010 16:15 FaTLiP wrote: TO ALL TERRANS WHO THINK TERRAN IS NOT OP. TO ALL TOSS PLAYERS NEEDING GOOD EVIDENCE!!!! THIS REPLAY IS FOR YOU!!! http://www.mediafire.com/?yuinozmgtmg This is a 40 min Diamond lvl pvt match in which the Terran went MMM+thor. The protoss player (me) Did just about everything right, Went Blink stlaks, Charge lots, HT Storm( + feedbacks on all medvacs and thors) Upgrades, IMMO's, Carriers, void rays, sent FF, and block drop, Took map control, Out expanded, Out armied, Out micro'd. Sniped expansions (yes even his NAT!!!) and still JUUUUST managed to eek out a win. All of that...just to compete with a A-move "micro" MMM terran. Watching this replay is obvious by far who the better player is, Yet he almost pulls it off. Watch it Terrans. Tell me Terran is not op. P.s. yes i know i made a few mistakes. And yes my hotkeys arent used much. I have a broken left hand (boxer fracture) and it makes hotkeying very very difficult. so there is the reason behind only 3 hotkeys. so... this convinced me of nothing... you were on equal bases most of the game, you had a third which wasn't used very well since a lot of the probes did absolutely nothing... they were literally just sitting by the nexus... the first fight was ridiculous since you used no forcefields, and no guardian shield so you lost badly against what should have been an even strength army. only watched up to the first 20 minutes, since it was clear that at that point you should have won since the other guy had no army after your second wave was sent in and you had about 8 stalkers and an immortal. why you didn't end it there is beyond me. and I don't even know where your observer was, mostly due to black minimap, but it wasn't looking at his army, and wasn't doing much. you only had 2 ht which was enough to hit about half of his army, which was really good, don't get me wrong, but a couple more would have been nice, as opposed to the sentries you had, which did literally nothing. but, I agree, the terran sucked. just... you did too. | ||
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Providence
United States125 Posts
On May 29 2010 17:32 yarkO wrote: I think Recall should come from Warp Prism with a costly research at the support Bay. You can play coy all you want and talk about dropping a Terran (lol?) but when is a Protoss going to have a fleet of Prisms ready to drop into his base? You think a single Prism with 2-4 units + Warpgate offers a legitimate threat to the turtle-Terran? Mules will recover any economic loss you inflict and you leave yourself open to a counter-attack. Imagine how any SC1 PvT would play out if Protoss never got Recall, because that's how this match-up is shaping up. The key I've found against Terran is to hit their refineries, and not their workers. Terran typically have absurd amounts of minerals anyway, and halting gas mining cuts out LOTS of tank production. | ||
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Antimage
Canada1293 Posts
just switched to terran for ladder, and my win rate is a bit off but I'm still able to get some solid victories off tvp and tvz vs anyone who is rank 1 and doesn't have a big name. =) it's fun being on the other side, give it a try- tell yourself it's only beta, and try something new. | ||
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cskalias.pbe
United States293 Posts
in the end though, i think it comes down to flanking terrans before they can siege. i find myself using an absurd amount of energy just scanning toss armies to make sure my ghost/tanks are in good position. it barely matters what your unit composition is as toss. if terran is already sieged and can anticipate where you will be for EMP, the battle is lost. | ||
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DarkwindHK
Hong Kong343 Posts
Usually when you lose to the terrible terrible damage seiged tank, you feel bad, you feel you have lost a lot. But in fact, if you managed to kill that one tank, that game may already be over, since Terran is usually very weak at least until they have 2 bases. Abuse back doors and abuse the slow movement speed of Terran. Observer is like the most important unit in this match up, once you spot he move out to push, immediately go out and engage in the middle of the map. If you let his tank siege up and contain you, its gg. | ||
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Phael
United States281 Posts
Terran: 37.5% win Zerg: 67% win Protoss: 72% win Of course personal win/loss ratios don't really mean anything, this is just to note my frustration, and illustrate how incredibly lopsided these different matchups are for me, at least. I'm currently a 600 diamond player, and I am still totally confused as to what I should do against terran. Against an equally upgraded cost/food army, unless the Terran makes a massive blunder, protoss ground vs ground is always demolished. I've fought 50 food vs 50 food, 100 vs 100, and 200 vs 200, generally the Terran wins with at least half his forces intact. I used to be able to hold my own using a two void ray timing push (along with about a dozen gateway units) because the voidrays could easily melt the wall in at the ramp/take out bunkers without being shot in return by Marines, but now that extra range is gone it doesn't work. After dozens of games of trial and error, I have just given up trying any cute new strategies and have resorted to a simple 4 gate push hoping I'd catch the Terran teching up and have a 20-30 food unit advantage. Of course, if the Terran has a bio army that is roughly the same cost, they'll wipe the floor with the gateway units at my ramp, at their ramp, or in the open. I think my main issue is with marines. They are very cheap, have a small hit box so can cram more in the same area, are massable, and do insane damage at decent range. One marine has basically the same dps of a sentry or stalker - and costs a third as much. Then they can stim and make it even worse. Well of course, just use aoe right?! Well, the problem is that there are only two real sources of aoe (lolarchons) for Protoss. Colossus is countered by the easily massed marauder, or tanks, and high templar are owned by emp so hard. And it's not as if ghosts are out of the way tech to get against Protoss either. As far as I can tell, Terran have ground superiority, air superiority, can fast expand at will if they wanted pumping nothing but marines and throwing down some bunkers cause there's no tech rush that can beat pure marines (wtf?). | ||
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Zutta
United States102 Posts
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Scotchy
France24 Posts
On May 31 2010 16:20 Phael wrote: + Show Spoiler + Terran is easily my worst matchup. I went through and tallied my latest 100 or so games, and apparently: Terran: 37.5% win Zerg: 67% win Protoss: 72% win Of course personal win/loss ratios don't really mean anything, this is just to note my frustration, and illustrate how incredibly lopsided these different matchups are for me, at least. I'm currently a 600 diamond player, and I am still totally confused as to what I should do against terran. Against an equally upgraded cost/food army, unless the Terran makes a massive blunder, protoss ground vs ground is always demolished. I've fought 50 food vs 50 food, 100 vs 100, and 200 vs 200, generally the Terran wins with at least half his forces intact. I used to be able to hold my own using a two void ray timing push (along with about a dozen gateway units) because the voidrays could easily melt the wall in at the ramp/take out bunkers without being shot in return by Marines, but now that extra range is gone it doesn't work. After dozens of games of trial and error, I have just given up trying any cute new strategies and have resorted to a simple 4 gate push hoping I'd catch the Terran teching up and have a 20-30 food unit advantage. Of course, if the Terran has a bio army that is roughly the same cost, they'll wipe the floor with the gateway units at my ramp, at their ramp, or in the open. I think my main issue is with marines. They are very cheap, have a small hit box so can cram more in the same area, are massable, and do insane damage at decent range. One marine has basically the same dps of a sentry or stalker - and costs a third as much. Then they can stim and make it even worse. Well of course, just use aoe right?! Well, the problem is that there are only two real sources of aoe (lolarchons) for Protoss. Colossus is countered by the easily massed marauder, or tanks, and high templar are owned by emp so hard. And it's not as if ghosts are out of the way tech to get against Protoss either. As far as I can tell, Terran have ground superiority, air superiority, can fast expand at will if they wanted pumping nothing but marines and throwing down some bunkers cause there's no tech rush that can beat pure marines (wtf?). Exactly my thoughts. Terran has the other advantage that it can switch Tech in a matter of seconds (by just lifting and switching addons), whereas Protoss needs a lot more deep restructuration. Usually protoss can only switch if at more than 2 bases. Then again this opens a huge timing where the P will be VERY weak and die to any push. I don't ask for easy roflstompingTerrans, I just don't understand why my bigger army gets demolished by an inforerior army when Protoss units cost SO much more. | ||
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leveller
Sweden1840 Posts
 The problem is just that its impossible to scout before commiting to either robo or stargate. Yes you CAN use hallucinations but before warp gates? If you wait for hallucination scout before teching, its too late to tech. This makes the match up extremely frustrating and unfun. Im not saying its imba, terrans units are too cheap, have to much dps, or whatever. That might be the case but Im not a good enough player to comment on something so delicate. But in my experience as a toss playing terran is just boring and frustrating and an uphill battle from the moment it begins. | ||
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SilverforceX
Australia267 Posts
Any colossus + stalker heavy army will auto lose. The tanks don't even have to be in siege mode. Normal mode they do insane dps vs armored targets and have good range. The only effective way to counter them is a LOT of charge zealots with HT support (hope they don't EMP your HT!). Ofcourse, this leaves you weak to air. But it's not so bad, as banshees while doing great ATG dps, are pretty weak vs a few phoenixes and vulnerable to feedback. Just saw a great replay (painuser vs incontrol), terran went ghostmech with a lot of tanks and hellions with viking support. Protoss kept losing his big ground armies, even with a lot of immortals and HT. Terran was too passive and really gave P a lot of expo and allowed fast tech change, P massed VR and won. If he wasn't so passive, would have steamrolled. Scan and tank/rine drop would have taken care of all the expo before ground forces can arrive. Basically it's all down to tanks and ghosts. Tanks nullify all ground threats. Ghost nullify all counters. Anything else just requires some scouting and you can switch addons for rapid counters. | ||
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De4ngus
United States6533 Posts
On May 31 2010 18:02 SilverforceX wrote: Terran dominate ground with good tank usage. Going ground vs this combo is just auto-lose. Any colossus + stalker heavy army will auto lose. The tanks don't even have to be in siege mode. Normal mode they do insane dps vs armored targets and have good range. The only effective way to counter them is a LOT of charge zealots with HT support (hope they don't EMP your HT!). Ofcourse, this leaves you weak to air. But it's not so bad, as banshees while doing great ATG dps, are pretty weak vs a few phoenixes and vulnerable to feedback. Just saw a great replay (painuser vs incontrol), terran went ghostmech with a lot of tanks and hellions with viking support. Protoss kept losing his big ground armies, even with a lot of immortals and HT. Terran was too passive and really gave P a lot of expo and allowed fast tech change, P massed VR and won. If he wasn't so passive, would have steamrolled. Scan and tank/rine drop would have taken care of all the expo before ground forces can arrive. Basically it's all down to tanks and ghosts. Tanks nullify all ground threats. Ghost nullify all counters. Anything else just requires some scouting and you can switch addons for rapid counters. You don't seem to understand how mech works. "Terran was too passvie or else he would have steamrolled" -_- You can't just run all over the place with a lot of tanks and be super aggressive because they are so immobile. Thats like the easiest way to lose going mech. | ||
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Scotchy
France24 Posts
On May 31 2010 18:11 De4ngus wrote: You don't seem to understand how mech works. "Terran was too passvie or else he would have steamrolled" -_- You can't just run all over the place with a lot of tanks and be super aggressive because they are so immobile. Thats like the easiest way to lose going mech. Oh yeah, and while Terran has the best defenses in the game (read: turrets and planetary fortress), denying HIS expos are a pain in the ass, too. You usually have to commit your army. You can't just go mass air to counter his tanks, as soon as he'll scout your multiple stargates, he'll either go mass vikings or mass marines, and you're screwed since any of those hard counters uncharged VRs, either are which cost way less than VRs. | ||
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SilverforceX
Australia267 Posts
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Cashout
115 Posts
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ofcourse
Poland67 Posts
I thought that I was ahead before the first big battle in the middle. http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/6985 Diamond 1v1 ~550 Protoss vs ~400 Terran | ||
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