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On June 01 2010 05:18 Dawme wrote:
To be honest, I'm surprised there's so much debate about all this stuff. It seems so obvious to me that terran is very overpowered in the current game version, be it vs protoss or zerg, and if this version is the one that goes live, I'm sure terran will win a large majority of the games a few weeks or months later. Let's face it, most of terrans right now aren't using half of the race features (I can't understand why I see ghosts maybe in 30% of games against protoss, building ghosts is basically halving the protoss army and avoiding all its abilities). When all terrans will learn and use the semi optimal builds, they will roll over everyone, they already do it by a-moving basically...
There are so many things crazy in terran right now, EMP is the most overpowered ability of the game BY FAR and I can't believe it's still in the game in its current form, the combination of a low cost huge armor+hp melee unit with a powerfull snare AND siege tanks is totally overpowered too, and basically an I Win button on some of the current maps right now, their harassing capabilities are simply the best of all races (have fun vs terrans who can multitask helions drone roasting + banshee harass + marau/tank drops ..). Colossus are hard countered very efficiently by vikings, HTs are useless because of EMP (and LOL terran players don't tell us to micro feedback to avoid EMP, feedback and EMP are both insta, same range, but EMP is AoE while feedback is single which means that at equal skills, you CANT avoid EMP as protoss), all gateways are uber crushed by tanks, your only hope is gimmick stuff (like DTs) or huge mistakes by the terran. And on top of all that, they can basically go all tech trees very quickly and switch between all units almost as fast as zergs.
I don't want to whine, I don't care so much because I'm convinced the game will be patched quickly after live but honestly, I don't see how average experienced players can't see how much terran is powerfull in the current build, it seems really so obvious to me..
Why would people complain? Yes tanks will completely annihilate armies that try to go through chokes, but that's how it's always been in both SC1 and 2. And?
You complain about EMP but gloss over feedback. Here's a hint. Feedback is godly. Feedback is ridiculously good. Feedback + storm = amazing.
Here's a simple fact. At HIGH levels of play:
Protoss and Zerg dominate. Just go look at X number of tournaments or high level players.
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all these garbage 1v1 maps do nothing to help balance either. i hate steppes, blistering sands etc because they promote shorter games involving banshees or some other boring shit like that. ive had a couple decent games but theres so many chokes and ramps and all this bullshit on most maps that its just annoying to attack. if they removed that shit from the middle of temple it would be a much better map.
i remember a tvz like 4-5 patches ago when he had 4 bases and i had 4 bases and we had these huge battles in the middle with broodlords and ultras and all that jazz. was a very fun game, reminded me of bw tvz.
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On June 01 2010 07:31 oxxo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 05:18 Dawme wrote:
To be honest, I'm surprised there's so much debate about all this stuff. It seems so obvious to me that terran is very overpowered in the current game version, be it vs protoss or zerg, and if this version is the one that goes live, I'm sure terran will win a large majority of the games a few weeks or months later. Let's face it, most of terrans right now aren't using half of the race features (I can't understand why I see ghosts maybe in 30% of games against protoss, building ghosts is basically halving the protoss army and avoiding all its abilities). When all terrans will learn and use the semi optimal builds, they will roll over everyone, they already do it by a-moving basically...
There are so many things crazy in terran right now, EMP is the most overpowered ability of the game BY FAR and I can't believe it's still in the game in its current form, the combination of a low cost huge armor+hp melee unit with a powerfull snare AND siege tanks is totally overpowered too, and basically an I Win button on some of the current maps right now, their harassing capabilities are simply the best of all races (have fun vs terrans who can multitask helions drone roasting + banshee harass + marau/tank drops ..). Colossus are hard countered very efficiently by vikings, HTs are useless because of EMP (and LOL terran players don't tell us to micro feedback to avoid EMP, feedback and EMP are both insta, same range, but EMP is AoE while feedback is single which means that at equal skills, you CANT avoid EMP as protoss), all gateways are uber crushed by tanks, your only hope is gimmick stuff (like DTs) or huge mistakes by the terran. And on top of all that, they can basically go all tech trees very quickly and switch between all units almost as fast as zergs.
I don't want to whine, I don't care so much because I'm convinced the game will be patched quickly after live but honestly, I don't see how average experienced players can't see how much terran is powerfull in the current build, it seems really so obvious to me.. Why would people complain? Yes tanks will completely annihilate armies that try to go through chokes, but that's how it's always been in both SC1 and 2. And? You complain about EMP but gloss over feedback. Here's a hint. Feedback is godly. Feedback is ridiculously good. Feedback + storm = amazing. Here's a simple fact. At HIGH levels of play: Protoss and Zerg dominate. Just go look at X number of tournaments or high level players.
I suggest you look at the tournaments yourself.
Protoss has never dominated at high levels of play after the warp gate nerfs. Terran players are starting to catch up to Protoss in terms of wins very fast, especially since Terrans have learned that MMM bioball is not the best strat.
Zerg, however, has dominated since day 1 and is continuing to dominate.
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On June 01 2010 07:31 oxxo wrote:You complain about EMP but gloss over feedback. Here's a hint. Feedback is godly. Feedback is ridiculously good. Feedback + storm = amazing. That's ridiculous. Ever tried to feedback anything other than Medivacs or Ravens ? Well, sniping a ghost hidden in an MM ball with Feedback is like trying to find the keys of your car after a good night of drinking. NO f*ckin way.
On June 01 2010 07:31 oxxo wrote:Here's a simple fact. At HIGH levels of play:
Protoss and Zerg dominate. Just go look at X number of tournaments or high level players. Just quit with that shitty fake argument already. What pure Terran player has the background (or even close to) of Tester to beat him ?
It's basically that. There's not yet any top notch Terran players around. People are messing with the races, they're trying to find strategies.
Why must it be that P or Z have to struggle against Terran at equal level of skill, or do a billion multitasking, a billion macro/micro and a zillion units. Protoss is not Z to be able to pump out units like a mad machine.
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Siege tanks are way deadlier and unmanageable in SC2 because of the smart AI and the no overkill stuff. So yeah you can't go through chokes, that means basically on a lot of maps like steppes or lost temple, once the terran has contained you, it's game over, you can't do anything about it. The game between incontrol and painuser is a good illustration of that fact, off course incontrol just 1a and indeed it's normal that he died. But anyways, he could not have broken this containment no matter how much he tried without a HUGE number of void rays. Since tech switch is long and very costly, it was game over as soon as incontrol took this central position.
Like I told, it's fucking ridiculous to compare feedback and EMP. You CANNOT feedback a ghost IF the terran is not sleeping. Both spells are insta, both spells have the same range but EMP is AoE which means it is WAY WAY easier / faster to use. And even if you manage to feedback a ghost before he EMPs, terran armies have like 5 or 6 ghost nowadays. Now if you tell me you are able to feedback 5 or 6 ghosts before one of them use EMP, I must say you're a way better player than me. Nerf the EMP range to 6 or 7 and it's balanced. Right now, it's not, feedback is not a solution to emp if the terran is not asleep. And i don't even mention the fact that the one who casts EMP can be cloaked. As of today, there are NO solutions against EMP for protoss other than taking it on the smallest number of units he can (which is generally 70 80% vs 5+ ghosts) and trying to live through it. Is that fair ?
I don't think tournaments are a good way to judge the overall balance of a game to be honest, but if you want to go this route, what I'm seeing is terrans play rapidly evolving during the last weeks and the ones who are starting to use the full race potential are more and more winning (TLO and Maka during the last tournaments I watched were very good for example). What I would like to see is the TvZ / PvZ winrates in diamond level games that last more than 8 mins (because cheese stuff does not matter, it's a special case). And I would like to see the evolution of this number during the next weeks / months without patches. That would be an interesting statistic but you and I won't see it ever. So we can only judge by our own feelings and mine is that terran has the potential to make one sided games where their opponents can't do anything to win after a certain time on the current version with the current map pool. That's it.
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If the terran entrenches themselves in a key location (ie, by the choke outside your base) then its extraordinarily difficult to break out. That is to say, you've most likely lost the game. In other words, it's like sc1. If you let yourself get contained by a terran and concede the map, then you're as good as dead
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Some serious noob whining in this thread. The moment EMP is nerfed is the moment that Toss will build nothing but immortals and the moment that tanks/thors will no longer be used.
Steppes of war and close spawns on lost temple really favors Terran. Metalopolis really favors Z/P. We all know this already. Blame the maps, not the units.
The game is played extremely similarly to BW. If a Toss or Zerg army attacks a well set-up Terran army, he will get annihilated. Yes, Tanks are better now, but they also cost 25% more gas. Hellions cost 33% more than vultures, are slower, and don't have free mines. Protoss is weaker now in direct confrontations due to stalkers being weaker than goons. However, protoss just got a ton better at harassment due to the warp prism and warp gates (which also acts like awesome anti-harrassment). Protoss got a ton more mobile with teleporting stalkers and reavers replaced by 9range speedy collossi that can abuse cliffs.
Maybe mention those things to sound a bit less biased.
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On June 01 2010 07:29 Salv wrote:
If a Terran is massing tanks, hellions, and vikings, you need to go mass blink stalker, and then get two stargate void ray. If you keep making blink stalkers while taking your third, the Terran cannot do anything. Until they have a critical number of siege tanks (12-15), the Terran cannot just push out and set up in the middle of the map, blinking directly over the tanks and using some immortals will stop that.
The problem is later, once they reach that critical mass of tanks. No ground army can effectively deal with that, unless you get a really, really nice flank off on the Terran, which is very difficult in SC2. However if you have been massing void rays, they will decimate large numbers of vikings as soon as they are charged.
If terran sees blink stalkers, can't it just get a raven and use pdd?
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On June 01 2010 08:42 link0 wrote:
Some serious noob whining in this thread. The moment EMP is nerfed is the moment that Toss will build nothing but immortals and the moment that tanks/thors will no longer be used. did you even know that immortals are MEANT to be hard counters to tanks/thors ?
At its current state, immortals are useless in PvT.
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On June 01 2010 08:42 link0 wrote:
Some serious noob whining in this thread.
Always nice to start a reply with a catch phrase like that, it sure helps to up the discussion level and to make new friends.
The moment EMP is nerfed is the moment that Toss will build nothing but immortals and the moment that tanks/thors will no longer be used.
You know, "nerf" doesn't mean "annihilate". You can slightly adjust things to make better balance. Everyone was whining like crazy about void rays, they received a slight nerf, they're still used and nobody whines anymore. Isn't the game better ? I think so.
You can reduce a bit the range of emp, you can modify it so it removes shield only, or a fixed amount of shield / mana, there are plenty of solutions to keep the spell very powerfull but not so game deciding as it is right now...
Steppes of war and close spawns on lost temple really favors Terran. Metalopolis really favors Z/P. We all know this already. Blame the maps, not the units.
Indeed the map suck (even if I don't see how P is favored on metalopolis while terran can control one of the central gold spot and easily defend it but who cares. Maps are part of the problem, I agree with this and that's why I mentionned the current map pool
The game is played extremely similarly to BW. If a Toss or Zerg army attacks a well set-up Terran army, he will get annihilated. Yes, Tanks are better now, but they also cost 25% more gas. Hellions cost 33% more than vultures, are slower, and don't have free mines. Protoss is weaker now in direct confrontations due to stalkers being weaker than goons. However, protoss just got a ton better at harassment due to the warp prism and warp gates (which also acts like awesome anti-harrassment). Protoss got a ton more mobile with teleporting stalkers and reavers replaced by 9range speedy collossi that can abuse cliffs.
Maybe mention those things to sound a bit less biased.
To be honnest, you lost me there. Who cares about what changed between bw and sc2 ? The whole game changed. It's a new game, get over it and forget about sc1. Judge the balance from the matches you played on sc2. There are so many inside mechanics that are different between both games that comparing them is pointless in my opinion.
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On June 01 2010 08:42 link0 wrote:
Some serious noob whining in this thread. The moment EMP is nerfed is the moment that Toss will build nothing but immortals and the moment that tanks/thors will no longer be used.
Steppes of war and close spawns on lost temple really favors Terran. Metalopolis really favors Z/P. We all know this already. Blame the maps, not the units.
The game is played extremely similarly to BW. If a Toss or Zerg army attacks a well set-up Terran army, he will get annihilated. Yes, Tanks are better now, but they also cost 25% more gas. Hellions cost 33% more than vultures, are slower, and don't have free mines. Protoss is weaker now in direct confrontations due to stalkers being weaker than goons. However, protoss just got a ton better at harassment due to the warp prism and warp gates (which also acts like awesome anti-harrassment). Protoss got a ton more mobile with teleporting stalkers and reavers replaced by 9range speedy collossi that can abuse cliffs.
Maybe mention those things to sound a bit less biased.
So basically you're repeating what everyone already said. Protoss has to outmacro, outmicro the Terran and pray to Allah that the two armies never collide head-on.
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I suggest you look at the tournaments yourself.
Protoss has never dominated at high levels of play after the warp gate nerfs. Terran players are starting to catch up to Protoss in terms of wins very fast, especially since Terrans have learned that MMM bioball is not the best strat.
Zerg, however, has dominated since day 1 and is continuing to dominate.
Protosses Whitera, Nani, Tester?
I think those guys dominated alot of tournaments dont they?
Or is it the TL, HDH, Altitude invatationals and Zotac not high level play?
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On June 01 2010 09:34 Brokengamer wrote:Show nested quote +
I suggest you look at the tournaments yourself.
Protoss has never dominated at high levels of play after the warp gate nerfs. Terran players are starting to catch up to Protoss in terms of wins very fast, especially since Terrans have learned that MMM bioball is not the best strat.
Zerg, however, has dominated since day 1 and is continuing to dominate.
Protosses Whitera, Nani, Tester? I think those guys dominated alot of tournaments dont they?
We don't need examples of Protoss winning tournaments at the pro level.
What we need is anecdotal evidence of Terran dominating with little or nothing that can be done to stop them.
And please... No replays, only theorycrafting and exaggerations.
That way we keep the thread going in a snow ball of denial and excuses.
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On June 01 2010 09:34 Brokengamer wrote:Show nested quote +
I suggest you look at the tournaments yourself.
Protoss has never dominated at high levels of play after the warp gate nerfs. Terran players are starting to catch up to Protoss in terms of wins very fast, especially since Terrans have learned that MMM bioball is not the best strat.
Zerg, however, has dominated since day 1 and is continuing to dominate.
Protosses Whitera, Nani, Tester? I think those guys dominated alot of tournaments dont they? Or is it the TL, HDH, Altitude invatationals and Zotac not high level play?
add todays huk win, totally raping morrow and tlo to the point tlo even decided to switch from terran to zerg
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On June 01 2010 09:42 Opinion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 09:34 Brokengamer wrote:
I suggest you look at the tournaments yourself.
Protoss has never dominated at high levels of play after the warp gate nerfs. Terran players are starting to catch up to Protoss in terms of wins very fast, especially since Terrans have learned that MMM bioball is not the best strat.
Zerg, however, has dominated since day 1 and is continuing to dominate.
Protosses Whitera, Nani, Tester? I think those guys dominated alot of tournaments dont they? We don't need examples of Protoss winning tournaments at the pro level. What we need is anecdotal evidence of Terran dominating with little or nothing that can be done to stop them. And please... No replays, only theorycrafting and exaggerations. That way we keep the thread going in a snow ball of denial and excuses.
Your right, however his post saying that protoss never dominated since the warpgate nerf (that was a billion of patches ago) just baffled me so I was prompted to ask.
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I really think a lot of the problems with Terran being as powerful as they are now is to do with the maps. In theory, flanking and surrounding the Terran sounds good, but its almost impossible to pull off with majority of the current maps. There just isn't enough area space in order make use of effective flanking. I see a lot of terran players saying "just don't attack straight on duh" but seriously, the small maps, the amount of narrow valleys with choke points/ramps in almost every map just forces Protoss to have to go head on more often then they would like. Once a Terran secures a vital area/choke point, its almost GG every single time.
If the map pool doesn't change, the only fair solution I can think of (without nerfing Terran too much) is buffing certain protoss units, I'm thinking particularly the warp prism. The warp prism has got to be one of the most useless units in my personal opinion. The medivac/overlord add so much to each of their respective races - but the 'new' shuttle and their fancy temporary pylon ability rarely (if ever) plays any sort of useful role. And no, its honestly not because players aren't using it enough, its just not feasible most of the time. Its expensive, slow, and incredibly fragile. The fact that you have to research the speed upgrade for it at the robotics bay is just a joke. If Protoss had medivacs, I bet the heal ability would have to be researched lol =p
I don't think Terran players would complain too much if Warp Prisms got a (major) buff - it gives a skilled Protoss a chance to make something happen if they get contained. It needs to be cheaper (either that or can carry more units), faster and a lot more durable. Then tactiful drops against siege tanks at the back might actually be feasible without getting instantly shot down by vikings/marines.
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United States47024 Posts
On June 01 2010 07:56 Scotchy wrote:
That's ridiculous. Ever tried to feedback anything other than Medivacs or Ravens ? Well, sniping a ghost hidden in an MM ball with Feedback is like trying to find the keys of your car after a good night of drinking. NO f*ckin way.
If you're going to make an argument about how the potential of a race isn't being maximized, you can't in the same breath say that a pretty straightforward action for another race is too hard. Because while feedbacking ghosts is indeed difficult, it's entirely reasonable for a mechanically strong Protoss player to do it.
On June 01 2010 07:56 Scotchy wrote:
Why must it be that P or Z have to struggle against Terran at equal level of skill, or do a billion multitasking, a billion macro/micro and a zillion units. Protoss is not Z to be able to pump out units like a mad machine.
You could say the same thing about low-mid level Protoss in Brood War. Up until even B level on ICCup, the reduced mechanical demand for Protoss is very significant. Terran at D level (which is about the skill level of most of Diamond atm) requires far more multitasking and micro to be able to compete with Protoss at that level, which, comparatively, can just "1a2a3a". But at levels beyond that balance seems to play out reasonably.
We're not currently at a level equivalent to ICCup B level in SC2. You can't evaluate eventual balance based on current mechanical difficulty. Because Brood War proves very clearly that one race being more mechanically demanding at mid-levels does not equate to that race being imbalanced at higher levels.
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I really don't know why this thread has gotten as big as it has, but I really dont find a problem at semi-high PvT level (I say semi-high because im high diamond (500ish rating atm with 28-9 stats), but most of the top players rarely play ladder anymore anyway), and we're not yet seeing terrans sweep every major tournament at the highest level.
Whilst there's a lot of theorycraft going on in this thread, until we have statistics that show terran are facesmashing the other races left and right there's no reason to nerf a race that right now the top players are struggling with, if we look in the vacuum as most of these replies have been that simply army vs army terran smashes protoss with Tank+bio balls, you do realize that tank + vulture had the EXACT same dynamic in broodwar, yet that matchup is still considered Protoss favored.
Personally i think the emp vs feedback dynamic is fine, yeah they get aoe, and maybe a small range reduce on the emp cast range and making snipe instant cast with the same range instead would silence some of the whining, the battle will still come down to army positioning, and if u group your templar close enough (and your army for that matter) that 2-3 emps can completely decimate your ability to storm/feedback, then you deserve to lose.
Also, to the people whining about how its impossible to even spot the ghosts in a big mm ball....
Pro tip: Turn on health bars, marines/marauders don't have mana...
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great tip Ftrunkz.
i think mid game is fine with p v t.
late game in diamond league is the problem....
nothing to do that can surprise a terran player to do a tech switch
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EMP is a hard counter to protoss. It's basically an AoE damage and energy drain, instantly. It's like throwing down a psi storm AND several feedback at once. Except you can move out of a psi storm, and you have to micro feedback if you wish to hit more than 1 unit. JUST spend a moment critically thinking about this.
A few other bits:
- Ghost are alot quicker to get than HT, and cheaper to tech to.
- Ghosts come with EMP default. HT needs to spend time and a lot of resources to research psi storm. Basically, the default ghost ability is a lot better means they are useful right away and cheaper in investment.
- Ghosts are quite quick moving and can cloak. So it makes taking them out a lot more difficult compared to taking out HT (why are they so freaken slow??).
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EPT
