EPTPVT unbalance in diamond league - Page 13
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SpicyCrab
402 Posts
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hOmEgrOWn
United States4 Posts
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FaTLiP
United States57 Posts
On May 30 2010 11:47 hOmEgrOWn wrote: try micro'ing the phoenix's around the vikings since they can move and shoot at the same time Dude. Vikes have 9 range. Phoenix have 4. All this is going to accomplish is your Phoes are going to look bad as as the die. Miss type on vike range. | ||
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wintergt
Belgium1335 Posts
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FaTLiP
United States57 Posts
On May 30 2010 11:54 wintergt wrote: Just mass a balanced army while using warp prisms to drop into the terran base at weak spots. And here is the key, outexpand him like crazy, I'm talking get 2k+ income. Terran is really screwed with his immobile army vs 10+ warpgates warping in units all over the map backed up by a superior economy. sigh... so just "have tons more stuff all over the map" is really your opinion? | ||
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CruelZeratul
Germany4588 Posts
On May 30 2010 11:51 FaTLiP wrote: Dude. Vikes have 7 range. Phoenix have 4. All this is going to accomplish is your Phoes are going to look bad as as the die. Vikings have range 9. | ||
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Zealot Lord
Hong Kong744 Posts
On May 30 2010 04:07 JreL209 wrote: You need to learn the counters first, then scout, then scout more, and then scout again. That is one of protoss's advantages to terran, their scouting ability and tech options. I can't agree with this - Protoss has better tech options? Unlike Terran, once Protoss commits to a certain tech path, theres no turning back in the mid game against a good opponent. Where as each of Terrans production buildings have much much more versatility (I don't think anyone can deny this). Scouting edge is quite even but I give to Terran also because of the opportunity cost in order for Protoss to scout (after the ramp is walled off). Very rarely will a Terran cost himself the game by scouting - whether you scan or you do the flying building method (TLO style). For instance Toss, if you go for Robo early and get an observer - you likely won't get the council zealot speed upgrade in time if the Terran was planning on a MMM push the whole time (thanks to the speed upgrade being an absurd 200/200). Without chargelots, it becomes much more difficult pushing back a MMM push. But on the other hand, if you don't do a quick scout, it could easily be game over if he went for fast banshees and so on. | ||
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Scotchy
France24 Posts
The key is to keep pressuring and outplaying your opponent before he gets any critical mass of units, at which point you'll be dead meat no matter how many expos you have. Of course, this hardly works at the same skill level, and Terrans' wall is way too much of an advantage. | ||
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SpicyCrab
402 Posts
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On May 30 2010 13:57 SpicyCrab wrote: Why can none of you address the fact that terran doesn't actually dominate protoss? Are you suggesting that Protoss is dominating Terran? There have been no released statistics about the state of PvT for quite a while. The last time we received any statistics about the state of PvT was many many patches ago when immortals had lower build time and was able to crush Terran extremely early. If you want to talk about tournament wins, Terran have been winning their fair share of tourneys, at least not much less than Protoss. Additionally, tournament results are not a fully accurate indicator of how strong Protoss or Terran are against one another because the results are skewed due to the presence of Zerg and other matchups. Please don't use tourneys as a reliable indicator. It is meaningless unless the tourneys your citing contains only Terran/Protoss players. This thread is based entirely off of supposed diamond players' observations about PvT. Personally, I feel that there is no imbalance, but apparently a lot of people do and they are discussing it. | ||
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STS17
United States1817 Posts
This forces the terran player to scout with a flying building or a scan since banshee and viking are too expensive to risk. Constantly having to scan puts us behind economically which really hurts MMM play but doesn't effect mech play nearly as much (hint, lots of scans indicates stronger likelihood for mech play over MMM - there's a tip for ya) since it is so gas heavy we generally have a huge excess of minerals so MULEs aren't as necessary. I think it may come down to how you choose to scout after the wall off that is hurting you. My brother plays Protoss at the platinum level and he strongly prefers hallucinated Phoenix over teching to observers for his scouting, not only are they "free" in the sense that it's simply wasted energy but it doesn't "lock" him into a specific tech path which allows him to respond more easily to the terran's choices. He only really gets Observers when he feels Ghosts/Banshees are a central part of the terran strategy. | ||
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aznhockeyboy16
United States558 Posts
and yes, terran buildings are more versatile, but they also have to be built by workers. Taking scv's off of mining is kind of detrimental to mineral aquisition early game, and although that's not a huge deal later on, is kind of annoying. if you're complaining about not being able to scout you could just get hallucinate, and it would be a much better use of energy than what I saw from that one video the guy showed with the miserably bad ff. personally, I have never played against a toss who scouted with anything before an observer, if they scout me at all. I've played a lot of tosses, who have never gotten anything other than gateways, and the cybernetics core, and complained about me going mass marauder, or that tanks are imbalanced. Back when I had 50 apm as a zerg in BW I was beating people with 140-150 apm. and some people with like 250 apm, but I can only assume they were spamming. apm isn't everything, and even more so in sc2 where unit composition is so freaking important. And to everyone who said that marauders beat every gateway unit, unless the terran can kite all of the zealots, which shouldn't happen because protoss happens to have a unit that can create walls wherever it feels like creating them, they will lose to zealots, and oh man wouldn't it be terrible if you had to get collossi, and ht which both happen to rape terran infantry the same way tanks rip apart infantry. Also, it's completely reasonable that protoss needs to be 1 base up against a terran. This was completely true in BW, and against a turtle terran, you should be at least 1 base up. And yes, the answer to a an army composition that you think is unbeatable is to just have more shit. btw... stupid people telling protoss to go air is ridiculous since vikings completely decimate protoss air. they outrange phoenixes, so telling the phoenixes to kite is ridiculous, and unless the void rays have charge they can't do anything, and can be kited by the viking, and I've never gone against a carrier, but I assume they also get ripped apart by viking fire. I'm not saying the game is completely balanced, blizzard isn't exactly doing their job correctly and are focusing much more on the percentages, rather than the reasons behind the percentages, but most of your complaints are ridiculous. I think the terran upgrades can go back up to 150/150, and charge can be reduced to 150/150, but other than that there's not as glaring an issue as every whiny bitching toss seems to think there is. Just take a note from the top players, there is no such thing as imbalance. And if there is, it will be fixed. As a final note, screw toss. nobody likes them. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On May 30 2010 14:42 STS17 wrote: But how often do you wall off yourselves? It's quite easy to do and if you don't completely wall off, such as by leaving the one zealot opening then you can still get units out of your base. Or if you plan for mostly gateway play then completely walling off with one or two cannons behind the wall is completely viable. This is horrible advice. Personally, I think you should never ever wall off against Terran, especially not to completely wall off with cannons. Here's why: 1. Reapers. Early reaper harass/cheese will completely decimate you if your base is too far spread out. You will likely only have 1 stalker by the time a well-executed reaper harass gets to your base. There is no way your single stalker can cover everything if you spread your base out too far. 2. Chokes are great...until Terran gets tanks. At that point, chokes suck balls. By artificially creating an extremely narrow choke you will be able to hold off early MM aggression easily, but once the Terran gets tanks and you get contained, you will never break out. Especially since the arbiter/carrier of BW (which were key in breaking contains) are no longer present/viable. 3. Cannons are a waste of minerals (usually). They are expensive and Terran can easily destroy them without losing so much as a marine (tank range!). The only time they are really useful is in mid-late game when you have many bases and hellion/reaper/dropship harass is an issue as you can't be everywhere at once. Then, the cannons only act to delay the harass for you to send/warp in reinforcements. On May 30 2010 14:50 aznhockeyboy16 wrote: btw... stupid people telling protoss to go air is ridiculous since vikings completely decimate protoss air. they outrange phoenixes, so telling the phoenixes to kite is ridiculous, and unless the void rays have charge they can't do anything, and can be kited by the viking, and I've never gone against a carrier, but I assume they also get ripped apart by viking fire. Air is not a bad idea. Phoenix do not get raped by vikings. Neither unit gets any sort of bonuses against the other and when mathcrafted, a Phoenix can destroy a Viking 1v1. Click spoiler to see the math. + Show Spoiler + Phoenix: Dmg: 5x2 = 10 damage a hit Cooldown of 1.1 HP: 120 +60 shields Viking: Dmg: 10x2 = 20 damage a hit Cooldown of 2 HP: 125 Now, based on raw damage, it will take a Phoenix 13 hits to destroy a Viking, while a Viking can kill a Phoenix in just 8 hits. However, here, cooldown rates play a key role. Phoenix attack almost twice as fast. In other words, a Phoenix can get in almost 16 hits in the time a Viking gets in the 8 required to kill a Phoenix. At the same time, though, Vikings outrange Phoenix by 5, allowing them to get in one extra hit before the Phoenix can engage. Due to the large range of the Viking, Phoenix micro is negligible, but the Viking cannot micro nearly as well (if at all). Thus, Vikings and Phoenix are pretty even when it comes down to a head-to-head battle. Phoenix win in terms of firing rate and health and movespeed, while Viking wins in terms of raw damage per shot and getting the first hit. Obviously, 1v1 scenarios will (almost) never happen in a real game. It really comes down to positioning and support units that are present along in the battle. The point of this mathcraft is just to show that Viking are not > Phoenix they way aznhockeyboy made it out to be. Additionally, Phoenix have anti-gravity, which is invaluable in countering a meching Terran. Lifting up a seige tank even for just a few seconds allows your ground forces (usually zealots) to close the distance. Void rays are extremely powerful either in large numbers, or when charged, or both. They are not a bad idea provided you have the proper support units for them. Carriers suck. That I agree with (out of experience) due to two thing: the Viking utterly decimates them and also the new AI combined with increased dps is able to destroy interceptors faster than you can rebuild them, effectively neutralizing carriers. EDIT: Fixed viking hp | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
Also I think vikings only have 125 hp, so it takes 13 hits from a phx to kill it. But the fact of the matter is vikings do not own Phxs. I've never tested it but from my experiences Phxs in a head on battle w/ equal numbers will come out ahead, but they do cost slightly more. The real advantage is Phx's speed, which allows you to chase and destroy vikings if they try to run away, where as if you are outnumbered by vikings you can easily scoot along and come back with more of your friends  Also I'm not sure if kiting void rays w/ vikings is possible either. I sure have never seen it. The void ray's attack, once locked, extends an extra 2 range and combined w/ the fact void rays can move while attacking I don't think it's really feasible. Void rays do pretty well vs vikings as well considering vikings are supposed to counter void rays. | ||
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SilverforceX
Australia267 Posts
Zealots are kited easily. Stalkers die to Marauders without stims 1:1 and are more expensive. The first 1 or two Marauders basically kill your early forces, they have reinforcements streaming in. http://www.sc2win.com/starcraft-2-replays/tvp-pvt/morrow-vs-whitera-1/ Kinda like what happened here. I know WhiteRa repelled this attack, but he was so far behind losing all his forces and a lot of probes. The early ghost just nails the coffin.  | ||
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SpicyCrab
402 Posts
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FaTLiP
United States57 Posts
http://www.mediafire.com/?yuinozmgtmg This is a 40 min Diamond lvl pvt match in which the Terran went MMM+thor. The protoss player (me) Did just about everything right, Went Blink stlaks, Charge lots, HT Storm( + feedbacks on all medvacs and thors) Upgrades, IMMO's, Carriers, void rays, sent FF, and block drop, Took map control, Out expanded, Out armied, Out micro'd. Sniped expansions (yes even his NAT!!!) and still JUUUUST managed to eek out a win. All of that...just to compete with a A-move "micro" MMM terran. Watching this replay is obvious by far who the better player is, Yet he almost pulls it off. Watch it Terrans. Tell me Terran is not op. P.s. yes i know i made a few mistakes. And yes my hotkeys arent used much. I have a broken left hand (boxer fracture) and it makes hotkeying very very difficult. so there is the reason behind only 3 hotkeys. | ||
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SilverforceX
Australia267 Posts
That pure skill. Terran stomp with with just early marauders. | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
Protoss can make use of every branch of the tech tree, even carriers/mothership. This is my worst matchup and I've always found TvP difficult, but with the tank fix and immortal build time nerf I think it reached a state of balance. In short: quitcherbitchin. | ||
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FaTLiP
United States57 Posts
On May 30 2010 16:32 Floophead_III wrote: I don't know why this thread is even open... TvP is one of the most balanced matchups right now, and is incredibly exciting, dynamic, and enjoyable to watch and play. Protoss definitely has the macro advantage and very strong units/mobility. Terran has great synergy and defensive power with tanks/EMP/PF. It's not terribly different from BW, but there's more options for playstyle (bio/biomech/ghostmech/skymech). Protoss can make use of every branch of the tech tree, even carriers/mothership. This is my worst matchup and I've always found TvP difficult, but with the tank fix and immortal build time nerf I think it reached a state of balance. In short: quitcherbitchin. did you watch my replay? No? you didnt? watch the fucking replay and tell me its balanced. Its only balanced because either A.) your a terran player. B.) you player lower league games. C.) because you have no idea what your talking about. I think its all 3. | ||
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