well i´ve also tried using this strategy effectively, but without storm, a marine heavy build destroys as well zealots as voidrays. the problem i found was the charge of the rays. in a big battle, the ki would just target a singe marine with like 4 rays... they will never get charged. well chargin when you see he´s attacking... i mean c´mon with stim you need 2 secs to actually run over the half map. and charging and then attacking myself also proves very difficult, cause stim and go, he runs just away, waiting for the rays to uncharge and then turn back to hit me hard. some replays would be nice. the only thing i could figure as a solution is adding templar, but templar and void are too much gas i think.
On May 29 2010 18:01 ensis wrote: well i´ve also tried using this strategy effectively, but without storm, a marine heavy build destroys as well zealots as voidrays. the problem i found was the charge of the rays. in a big battle, the ki would just target a singe marine with like 4 rays... they will never get charged. well chargin when you see he´s attacking... i mean c´mon with stim you need 2 secs to actually run over the half map. and charging and then attacking myself also proves very difficult, cause stim and go, he runs just away, waiting for the rays to uncharge and then turn back to hit me hard. some replays would be nice. the only thing i could figure as a solution is adding templar, but templar and void are too much gas i think.
the key is to go into his base from the back and charge up om his buildings. Sensor Towers makes this difficult, but if he has a lot of siegetanks you should still be avle to take Down his marines head om assuming you are outproducing him...
Im on my phone right now but Will try to post replays later..
On May 28 2010 00:28 Duelist wrote: So i took the liberty of picking two great players, and a battle between a protoss and a terran army. And used the SC2 unit tester map to calculate costs of the units involved.
TLO's army:
17 marines, 11 Marauders, 3 ghosts
total cost: 2400m / 725 g / 45 supply
NonY's army:
12 Zealots, 3 immortals, 7 stalkers, 3 sentries
total cost: 2975m / 950g / 56 supply
Results?
10 Marines, 6 marauders and 1 ghost left, all but 1 immortal and 2 stalkers almost dead survived.
It was my understanding that immortals were the worst possible tech path versus ghosts. P should lose in that situation, especially if you nail the EMPs against immortals.
I'm also a diamond player and can offer some minor tips to this matchup.
In general, these complex unit compositions are not supposed to lose to a set strat. In SC2 there are more hard counter units to deal with. What this means is your army needs to be as diverse as theirs in most cases.
That being said, it is still starcraft pvt. You need to have the economic advantage as stated throughout this thread. Too many pvt are attempting equal base fights which is difficult since the Terran have become even more efficient than before.
I'm sure you know the basic counters, but as PvT I have had a lot of luck with adding Pheonixes instead of using Voidray harasses. They temporarily nullify siege tanks which are the most devastating ground unit to worry about, in addition they are about equal with vikings but you have the option to fight or run; whereas vikings don't.
Also HT are great to deal with ghosts and mm balls. Even though you can group all your units together, that doesn't mean it is a good idea to do so. Spread HT's can snipe ghosts pretty well with feedbacks and they can snipe with emp. It boils down to good micro at that point.
Overall, I am not too impressed with Robo pushes against Terran during the midgame. 3 immortals is always a nice addition to an army, but I feel like Terran are starting to understand to banshee them or ghost. I also dislike colossi against Terran if they have viking support because even if you do use pheonix to guard them. You can't cover them fast enough without a group of vikings taking them out, plus the vikings are pretty cost effective even if its a suicide run.
So to recap, stronger econ vs Terran since your army is more mobile to start with and use units to nullify key weapons of the Terran vs Protoss (siege , ghost).
Hi, I am a protoss player and I have 2 replays for you. These are custom games with my friend.
-- this replay I won mainly because I had Xel Naga and I catched his army unsieged at about 9th minute.
--this time fizola delayed starport to get 2 ghosts early to EMP. I think, that all P player has to do is just to run when EMPed and encounter back again when shield are regenerated. Well it's that simple. It takes 50+5 seconds to regenerate all lost shields, and 55 seconds period of time regenerates only 35 mana. My major mistakes I think were that: - I should have owned the Xel Naga - I should have been at his base, to force the emp, keeping my sentries out of range - when I lost my first battle I should have been defending the ramp (I forgot that he has no flying units)
Where is my 100/100 upgrade that gives zealots stalkers and sentries 50% more damage and movement speed ? me wants. -------
Beyond that i think terran is fine. Their units are just great overall there's no jack of all trades type bullshit going on. Marines / vikings dominate air while marauders / tanks are incredible vs ground. Helions and reapers are specifically designed to harras or simply dominate ground light units. Medvacs complement infantry and gives them massive mobility. Thors are prolly the only unit that tries to do too much but even then only 1 or 2 already rapes mutas as long as they get support from other units.
Zealots are ok meat shields and do decent damage but once they die the rest of the protoss army except for the tier 3 units just doesn't do enough damage. Stalkers / Sentry are laughable dps. Immortals spend 1/2 their time shooting marines / lings unless properly microed.
Dts are just a glorified stealth zealot that can't charge and requires the enemy to have A unit with detection in the field or simply scan once a big battle happens.
Phoenix are good vs muta / banshee and thats about it. Vikings / corruptors destroy them
Void rays spend 1/2 their time charging by the time they are fully charged (assuming their targets dint die instantly thus resetting the charge, the few remaining marines stim and focus them down in 5 seconds.
If you have 500 apm during a battle and tell every unit to attack exactly whats good for them then protoss does pretty good but its just pathetic having to deal with that every single battle when the other guy can a click and go back to building stuff in his base until colossus show up and you can sort of do the same till they catch up on air units.
If your opponent is turtling then you have the map control. You don't even have to fight for it... it was handed to you. Expand earlier, expand more. Do something with the advantage. If you are just going to turtle just like the terran then what are you complaining about?.
Putting it like that makes it sound as if turtling was actually good for the protoss, but is it really? If a terran turtles, its because no matter the advantages the protoss may get, in the end, it still is better for the terran, otherwise the terran would go for another strategy, right? And for the terran to gladly handle the protoss map control, which is indeed a great advantge, then imagine the advantage that the terran gains by turtling. It's like they were giving out the small toy because they get to have the bigger one.
Concerning the immortals, i read somewhere that stimmed marauders have higher dps than the mighty - probably not so mighty - immortals vs armmored. Immortals may have more HP, but i question if that increase in price is really worth the extra HP and hardened shields, since they usually get FF for being so few and having to be at the front line with their 5 range.
well immortals are useless, you can build 1 after your obs, in case the terrans pushing ,but against stim+emp, they fall like zealots. well but for the alternatives...stalkers.... well, everythings said bout them
well, it's quite clear that nony was outplayed in that isolated example because his sentry's were in the front and hit by emp, therefore wasn't able to get a single forcefield.
that's like a terran sieging up his tanks right in the front of his army with an impending battle.
PvT I recently played, forced an extra stim that did almost no damage to me and he still rolled me over with a simple army. I still won the game since he hadnt expanded and I had, and I was just starting to pump colossus which does destroy rines... but stim -> amove is pretty ridiculously strong.
On May 30 2010 01:40 TheRabidDeer wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uu6Hrqg-C7E PvT I recently played, forced an extra stim that did almost no damage to me and he still rolled me over with a simple army. I still won the game since he hadnt expanded and I had, and I was just starting to pump colossus which does destroy rines... but stim -> amove is pretty ridiculously strong.
The only reason terran won that battle was because he was macroing more units in the entire time, and also your second wave of forcefields failed to split his army...
On May 30 2010 01:40 TheRabidDeer wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uu6Hrqg-C7E PvT I recently played, forced an extra stim that did almost no damage to me and he still rolled me over with a simple army. I still won the game since he hadnt expanded and I had, and I was just starting to pump colossus which does destroy rines... but stim -> amove is pretty ridiculously strong.
also, you probably don't want your low hp sentries in the front, especially since they have guardian shield which kind of causes a massive decrease in dps from the marines, also stalkers have larger range than marines, so you could probably have sniped the marines on the ridge with the stalkers without taking any damage. also could have held out with ff until collossi came in and ripped apart the terran army. forcefield lets you control when you want to engage against a ground army. and with that many sentries you could have stalled easily until collossi came in, and if you're up a base, you definitely should have stalled it.
also, go watch white-ra vs maka. the game is pretty balanced at the upper levels...
Blizzard says it's imbalanced, and they're the only ones w/ the statistics, so end of the whole balance discussion.
You need to learn the counters first, then scout, then scout more, and then scout again. That is one of protoss's advantages to terran, their scouting ability and tech options.
I think they should simply just remove stim from marauders.
1. It's overpowered in late game.
2. It's overpowered if they do an early game marauder rush. It's not even possible to stop that unless you go 2gate early.
1. If you can't counter marauders in the late game then you obviously have a serious problem. Collossae, storm, immortals....
2. A voidray rush isn't possible to stop, unless you go starport viking or unless you add a quick ghost. Does this mean voidrays should be nerfed more?
On May 30 2010 01:40 TheRabidDeer wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uu6Hrqg-C7E PvT I recently played, forced an extra stim that did almost no damage to me and he still rolled me over with a simple army. I still won the game since he hadnt expanded and I had, and I was just starting to pump colossus which does destroy rines... but stim -> amove is pretty ridiculously strong.
your forcefields pretty much were terrible. the first wall was for what purpose? it just delayed the fight. the second wall was for what purpose? you put a few behind their army?
you're supposed to be splitting his army and destroying them piece by piece
judging from the armies you could have won that easily.
On May 27 2010 22:42 Severedevil wrote: My intuition says your economy is too small - generally if an opponent's composition seems unbeatable it's because your army is too small. You might also consider more use of air and/or upgrades.
This.
Also, I wanna make enphasis on the upgrades. If Protoss doesn't have 2/2/0 or 2/0/2 on mid game, battles get pretty uphill.
If your opponent is turtling then you have the map control. You don't even have to fight for it... it was handed to you. Expand earlier, expand more. Do something with the advantage. If you are just going to turtle just like the terran then what are you complaining about?.
Putting it like that makes it sound as if turtling was actually good for the protoss, but is it really? If a terran turtles, its because no matter the advantages the protoss may get, in the end, it still is better for the terran, otherwise the terran would go for another strategy, right? And for the terran to gladly handle the protoss map control, which is indeed a great advantge, then imagine the advantage that the terran gains by turtling. It's like they were giving out the small toy because they get to have the bigger one.
Concerning the immortals, i read somewhere that stimmed marauders have higher dps than the mighty - probably not so mighty - immortals vs armmored. Immortals may have more HP, but i question if that increase in price is really worth the extra HP and hardened shields, since they usually get FF for being so few and having to be at the front line with their 5 range.
Turtling is awesome. PvT, after all the immortal nerfs and bio buffs, has reverted to BW style PvT. The only reliable way Protoss can really win is by starving and out-producing the Terran. Due to the buffs to Terran early game/nerfs to Protoss early game it is much hard to secure a strong lead in the beginning. Protoss simply must be able to out-expand the Terran. Utilize the immobility of the Terran army in order to out-expand them. If they go pure MMM, which is very mobile, you should have no problems stomping it. It is only when ravens and tanks are added when the game becomes much more difficult. But the Terran also becomes much more immobile. Abuse that.
Also, Immortals are ONLY useful in the early game to ward off the initial marauder/tank harassment or to do an early wall bust. Once the armies get larger, they become more or less useless because of their slow movespeed and short range. Often, they will not be able to get many shots off due to their being blocked off. In addition, once the Terran amasses either ghosts or enough marines with stim (or both) Immortal shields fall almost instantaneously and 50% of their usability disappears.
Upgrades are nice, but I feel that armor/shield upgrades really aren't as important as weapons upgrades. The armor/shield upgrades are negligible once the Terran starts getting tanks. They are only really useful against the marines. It's all about balance. If you see the Terran getting a lot of marines, then perhaps getting more armor/shield is important. However, if you see the Terran with a lot more tanks, then max out weapons asap before armor/shield.
PvT is not imbalanced. It has become much harder than it was earlier in beta and is probably a lot harder than it was in BW, as well due to the loss of the arbiter and low viability of carriers. However, it's not imbalanced. Playing smart and economically will win you the matchup.
EPT
