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On May 29 2010 06:22 Bibdy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 05:59 DanielD wrote:On May 29 2010 05:33 Bibdy wrote:On May 29 2010 03:46 KobraKay wrote:On May 29 2010 03:18 Duelist wrote:
I'm just stating what i see. Zergs complaining about Terran mech, Protoss complaining about Terran MMM + emp. I also see many people saying protoss should "look for favorable positions to engage" and "harass terrans eco", and to "avoid big confrontations vs the terran army", seems like teaching an underdog how to try to cheat his way into a win.
The protoss army is not that mobile compared to the terran, is it? Stalker and colossus are very mobile, but apart from that is there realy much more mobility from the protoss ground part? It takes 2 seconds ? for a tank to put itself on siege mode. If a terran goes imoble (read siege mode) it's because its convenient. Protoss can take advantage of that if the terran wants and lets them.
From what i see, it seems terran is the strongest race atm. I rarely see a terran complaining about OP of the other two races, but the inverse i see a lot. Not saying it proves anything, but it should be worth looking into. Maybe because most P only know how to do a 4 gate push right into the tank line? Something that helps some of these cries is the way maps are made. Some (if not all) are a little small and the chokes favor a turtle terran. On the other hand I stand by my first statement, dont 4gate push every game and play dead as soon as it fails. Try new things. And this is not teaching an underdog how to cheat his way into a win, its outsmarting your opponent. If the terran is sieged and standing still in a single place flank or go around and kill his base. The main army cant be everywhere (again this would work better with larger or less choke oriented maps I know). Keep expanding and making units, they go bio take colussus they go mech try using immortals, they are made to counter tanks, use some lots to soak up damage. Im not a P player so Im not that knowledgeable in P tactics but in my opinion the MU its not imbalanced. Oh hey, another thinly-veiled "Protoss are clearly just bad players" post. You think we DON'T go running around with Void Rays to snipe buildings? That we DON'T do Immortal drops while they're sitting siege tanks in front of our base? That we DON'T try teching to different units when we see certain Terran unit compositions? That we DON'T try and outmacro them when they just camp on their asses? Yeah, we always just rush head-first at a Siege Tank line with Gateway units and then leap on the forums complaining how unbalanced PvT is. Makes total sense... The quality of posts on this forum is almost as bad as the official ones sometimes. Let's see a replay of you doing all of these things and still losing, I'm not baiting I'm serious, I'd like to see it. Would it be worth it? There's probably a billion things, of varying magnitudes, we could both point out that I did wrong to push the argument away from PvT imbalance. Replay-based arguments are just as permeable as theory-based ones. I can certainly find replays when I get home where I outplayed the crap out of the Terran, yet barely eeked out a win, though.
I would disagree - theory-crafting is basically meaningless UNLESS it's based on actual play -- which you can see in replays. Replay-based arguments might be permeable when the people playing are playing sub 80 apm, yes.
So, if you aren't playing at a fairly high level -- actually if BOTH sides aren't, then no, there's no point. But see, that's exactly it: there aren't enough high-level players yet, and the community has barely scratched the surface of strategic possibilities... and when you look at the win rates and the high-level tournament games I just don't see the problems that people are pointing out. If I see a game where the P plays right and loses to a T that plays significantly worse, that's another story, but I'm still waiting for one of those.
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Rarely do i hear complaints about protoss winning a terran with a-move, but the inverse is much more common - just this thread is full of them - , why is that?
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On May 29 2010 08:45 Duelist wrote:
Rarely do i hear complaints about protoss winning a terran with a-move, but the inverse is much more common - just this thread is full of them - , why is that?
only in copper league
*edit oh sorry its bronze now
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On May 28 2010 11:13 willeesmalls wrote:
People need to stop whining.
How to play PvT well:
1) be patient, PvT fights are about positioning.
2) you should always have map control after very early game.
3) If you see Terran exp and bunker, take another expo
4) Scout well and deny drops
5) sentry/speedlot beats small (<60food) infantry armies. Forcefield behind his army.
6) Colossus/high templars kills everything else.
7) Don't whine if u grouped your HT's together and had 8 of them emp'd by one ghost. You played poorly.
1800 plat and I can't even tech high enough to get 8 HTs in a standard PvT nowadays.
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On May 29 2010 05:33 Bibdy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 03:46 KobraKay wrote:On May 29 2010 03:18 Duelist wrote:
I'm just stating what i see. Zergs complaining about Terran mech, Protoss complaining about Terran MMM + emp. I also see many people saying protoss should "look for favorable positions to engage" and "harass terrans eco", and to "avoid big confrontations vs the terran army", seems like teaching an underdog how to try to cheat his way into a win.
The protoss army is not that mobile compared to the terran, is it? Stalker and colossus are very mobile, but apart from that is there realy much more mobility from the protoss ground part? It takes 2 seconds ? for a tank to put itself on siege mode. If a terran goes imoble (read siege mode) it's because its convenient. Protoss can take advantage of that if the terran wants and lets them.
From what i see, it seems terran is the strongest race atm. I rarely see a terran complaining about OP of the other two races, but the inverse i see a lot. Not saying it proves anything, but it should be worth looking into. Maybe because most P only know how to do a 4 gate push right into the tank line? Something that helps some of these cries is the way maps are made. Some (if not all) are a little small and the chokes favor a turtle terran. On the other hand I stand by my first statement, dont 4gate push every game and play dead as soon as it fails. Try new things. And this is not teaching an underdog how to cheat his way into a win, its outsmarting your opponent. If the terran is sieged and standing still in a single place flank or go around and kill his base. The main army cant be everywhere (again this would work better with larger or less choke oriented maps I know). Keep expanding and making units, they go bio take colussus they go mech try using immortals, they are made to counter tanks, use some lots to soak up damage. Im not a P player so Im not that knowledgeable in P tactics but in my opinion the MU its not imbalanced. Oh hey, another thinly-veiled "Protoss are clearly just bad players" post. You think we DON'T go running around with Void Rays to snipe buildings? That we DON'T do Immortal drops while they're sitting siege tanks in front of our base? That we DON'T try teching to different units when we see certain Terran unit compositions? That we DON'T try and outmacro them when they just camp on their asses? Yeah, we always just rush head-first at a Siege Tank line with Gateway units and then leap on the forums complaining how unbalanced PvT is. Makes total sense... The quality of posts on this forum is almost as bad as the official ones sometimes.
First dont state "we" because to the best of my knowledge your are only speaking for yourself. My post was directed to those who do such things (more than you think I guess). Second I didnt say all Ps are bad. Third...my god if you do all that and you cant win show me who those terrans are, they sure are good! Do you really think the people that are complaining here do all those stuff you say you try? And dont win 50% of their games against T?
Oh and before you say that WE dont do something (run into sieged tanks) take some time to read this thread. You will understand why I say that. The fact that you try all those things, to me, shows that you understand the game and have the knowledge to find counters and that is great. I just find odd that doing those things well done on a regular basis will lead to defeat.
Again the maps. With this one I can agree with most of you. There are some maps now that make turtle terrans happy.
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On May 29 2010 09:46 iCCup.Nove wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 11:13 willeesmalls wrote:
People need to stop whining.
How to play PvT well:
1) be patient, PvT fights are about positioning.
2) you should always have map control after very early game.
3) If you see Terran exp and bunker, take another expo
4) Scout well and deny drops
5) sentry/speedlot beats small (<60food) infantry armies. Forcefield behind his army.
6) Colossus/high templars kills everything else.
7) Don't whine if u grouped your HT's together and had 8 of them emp'd by one ghost. You played poorly.
1800 plat and I can't even tech high enough to get 8 HTs in a standard PvT nowadays.
do you talk about marauder pushes? mmm? 1/1/1? ghostmech?
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1750 plat protoss and i was 55% to win against p, 60% against z, and only 45% against t. Perhaps more importantly in 200 games I never had a match against toss where I felt like there was nothing I could have done differently to win, only had 1 match against a zerg where I felt like that, but I have had about 5 matches against terran where after watching the replay and thinking about it for a while I still felt like there was nothing I could have done to win. So I'm not sure if 2k+ players have the same difficulty against each other or what but I see Huk do fine and I'm left baffled when I hear 1800 terran players complain tvp is unbalanced.
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You cannot beat an equal food/resource Terran army in a straight up fight unless you are significantly better than the other player at microing. It's the price Zerg and Protoss pay for the extra mobility and faster reinforcing that they enjoy.
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On May 29 2010 10:25 KillerPenguin wrote:
1750 plat protoss and i was 55% to win against p, 60% against z, and only 45% against t. Perhaps more importantly in 200 games I never had a match against toss where I felt like there was nothing I could have done differently to win, only had 1 match against a zerg where I felt like that, but I have had about 5 matches against terran where after watching the replay and thinking about it for a while I still felt like there was nothing I could have done to win. So I'm not sure if 2k+ players have the same difficulty against each other or what but I see Huk do fine and I'm left baffled when I hear 1800 terran players complain tvp is unbalanced.
sorry this is a bit off topic. But is there a way to actualy check your win % other than just estimating? sorry for the off topic noob post...
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I tried to switch to Terran and use this on Diamond Protoss, and yes it does work and Protoss need a lot of work to win this.
Due to my noobish experience with Terran, I forget to build gohst and banshee, but I can still win by using a super turtle style of strategy.
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On May 29 2010 12:24 DarkwindHK wrote:I tried to switch to Terran and use this on Diamond Protoss, and yes it does work and Protoss need a lot of work to win this. Due to my noobish experience with Terran, I forget to build gohst and banshee, but I can still win by using a super turtle style of strategy.
Just finished watching gummybear v you. He breaks into your base b/c you pushed blindly and he got lucky. For a high level game, both of you love to play in the dark. Then instead of expanding he feels that the same push will start to produce results when you obviously will have the turtle advantage. He just kept throwing his units away, it was sad to watch. Instead he could've just used his mobility and map control to take earlier expansions. Instead he waited for his main to get COMPLETELY mined out b4 making his 2nd expansion. I mean seriously... his 2nd expansion was so late it was mind boggling.
Then he finally decides on a tech to high temps... good! Wait... he walked all his high temps INTO your tanks. Didn't bother to look at their mana or anything... a1 a2 right into your tanks. Then he starts crying about how OP terran is? Horrible. "Hey let me FINALLY try to use blink." Oh 4 stalkers weren't able to really do any damage, of course that strat is out of the window. Btw we are just about to head into his 2nd expansion, and hes currently at 0/0 upgrades (just thought I'd point that out).
Honestly if he just frustrated the crap out of you by attacking at the front and sides he would've taken that game easily. He could've easily just starved you, instead he felt the need to gather a couple of units w/o any real upgrades and just head butt you to death and use the apm to whine instead of using a little micro... even a little like focusing those ravens which were obviously wrecking his stalkers... no lets just stick with a move. "Lets kill that PDD which is just out in the open during the down time... nah I'll let it just stay up there not like it really does anything.... DERFA DERFA."
Did he use his map control to the least? NO. Jesus... leave one zealot at the expansions on your opponent's side for god's sake... nah I'll just play blind... its obviously working for the turtling terran. Would've been so easy to notice that you were taking your army everywhere when you expanded.. could've done SOME damage, but no... "terran is just too OP".
I wish there was a unit which had a range of 9 and could cliff walk and pretty much go anywhere on the map pretty quickly.... wouldn't that be wonderful? HEY I GOT AN IDEA... I'LL CLIFF WALK AND TAKE OUT SOME TURRETS :o. Way too micro intensive I guess. I'll agree that blistering isn't the best cliff walking map, but seriously... this guy has the choice of going pretty much ANY tech he wanted to and it would've taken you by complete surprise and he had the map control and the resources to do it, too. He chooses to walk his high temps into your base and then just spend minutes upon minutes typing.
Lets play the what if game. What if he realized his map control and took advantage of it? You would've been playing out of one base at the 40 minute mark, guaranteed. Heck if this guy just make pylons at every expansion and just flanked your army he would've won.
What if he actually used high temps instead of a1 a2ing them. He found a1 a2ing into your tanks more productive than using feedback. As soon as his probe died it was obvious that his army was going to get rocked if he pushed, but he still pushed.
He could've added a couple of void rays or something. At least look like he was trying. Zealot charge maybe? Nah.. I'll just let my zealots get rocked and not get that charge BS. I won't even get armor so they have some chance of surviving.
I'm just a little ticked off at every single toss and zerg I beat complaining about how amazing terran is and how easy it is to just turtle and win. I mean seriously just take ONE minute of your lives and just think about what the term turtle implies and what it means to win. If your opponent is turtling then you have the map control. You don't even have to fight for it... it was handed to you. Expand earlier, expand more. Do something with the advantage. If you are just going to turtle just like the terran then what are you complaining about? I BARELY have a win ratio of 60%. Pretty low level platinum (~400). Even at my level it is obvious that a lot of these strats are in their prelim stages. As new strats come out they seem IMBA for a while then as players figure out how to beat them, they become less and less "IMBA". For example this Terran is IMBA crap... you get map control and s/he gets a fairly safe FRONT. No one is saying that you can't do drops or blink in from the sides to keep the terran contained in his natural. How do you beat that? You make turrets every where, but really think about the implications of having say 5 turrets up in your main.. just your main. That is 750 minerals, which is 15 marines, 15 SCVs etc etc etc. There is no arguing that it puts the terran back quite a bit.
If you really feel that I'm just talking out of my ass... thats fine because I might be (w/o knowing it), but take a couple of minutes to watch your damn losses and just try to envision how you could've won instead of doing the same old crap repeatedly and expecting it to work.
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I think PvT has always revolved around one central timing push which allows protoss to expand safely or simply win the game outright. With the tank buff and terrans going a more tech oriented build this one timing push is being swiftly defended against and a counter-attack ensues. Protoss have had great success with playing highly aggressive play, however at this point these timing pushes are becoming less effective and I think that is why many protoss are having problems right now.
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On May 29 2010 15:47 Diaspora wrote:
I think PvT has always revolved around one central timing push which allows protoss to expand safely or simply win the game outright. With the tank buff and terrans going a more tech oriented build this one timing push is being swiftly defended against and a counter-attack ensues. Protoss have had great success with playing highly aggressive play, however at this point these timing pushes are becoming less effective and I think that is why many protoss are having problems right now.
I feel that early timing pushes would never really work unless the terran decides to not wall off. The mid game timing pushes are warded off by tanks, but really why would you try to beat the person turtling by attacking at the front? Why not do a drop which won't cost you much, but it'll give you insight into the guys base. Don't attack b4 an obs perhaps? As I stated earlier, playing in the dark is just dumb. You have tons of ways to figure out what your opponent is doing, why not use them and try to devise a strat? I.e. when you are about to do a tech, it just makes more sense (to me at least) to know what the terran's army comp is. That way I can make the right upgrade and get some form of an upper hand.
Also, as I stated earlier, terrans have a safe front. You can do drops pretty sucessfully, w/o any real danger to your units. Not only does it do damage to terran economy, it also puts that psychological pressure on the player. Just the threat of drops keeps people in their base for longer than they need to be. I've had players just drop in, destroy my ref... didn't bother with anything else and just backed out. I stayed in the base much longer than needed while s/he just expanded happily. I've done it to others and it works fairly well. Maybe its just a lower level gaming tactic, but it seems to work fairly well.
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i think TvZ is more of an imbalance with the ongoing mech pushes TBH
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On May 29 2010 16:29 BigDates wrote:
i think TvZ is more of an imbalance with the ongoing mech pushes TBH
Same principles apply. It is a bit easier to win against zerg, unless they realize the same thing... it is the front that is super duper defended and not the back. A drop with tons of ovies is scary as can be.
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On May 29 2010 15:56 haps wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 15:47 Diaspora wrote:
I think PvT has always revolved around one central timing push which allows protoss to expand safely or simply win the game outright. With the tank buff and terrans going a more tech oriented build this one timing push is being swiftly defended against and a counter-attack ensues. Protoss have had great success with playing highly aggressive play, however at this point these timing pushes are becoming less effective and I think that is why many protoss are having problems right now. I feel that early timing pushes would never really work unless the terran decides to not wall off. The mid game timing pushes are warded off by tanks, but really why would you try to beat the person turtling by attacking at the front? Why not do a drop which won't cost you much, but it'll give you insight into the guys base. Don't attack b4 an obs perhaps? As I stated earlier, playing in the dark is just dumb. You have tons of ways to figure out what your opponent is doing, why not use them and try to devise a strat? I.e. when you are about to do a tech, it just makes more sense (to me at least) to know what the terran's army comp is. That way I can make the right upgrade and get some form of an upper hand. Also, as I stated earlier, terrans have a safe front. You can do drops pretty sucessfully, w/o any real danger to your units. Not only does it do damage to terran economy, it also puts that psychological pressure on the player. Just the threat of drops keeps people in their base for longer than they need to be. I've had players just drop in, destroy my ref... didn't bother with anything else and just backed out. I stayed in the base much longer than needed while s/he just expanded happily. I've done it to others and it works fairly well. Maybe its just a lower level gaming tactic, but it seems to work fairly well.
It depends. Right now I see most T's going 1/1/1, getting tanks, grabbing an expo and turtling up until they can their mass MMM + tanks + viking + raven + thor army of death, with maybe a mid game push here or there with marauders or perhaps some banshee play.
But on a lot of maps with backdoors like Blistering or Kulas you can really punish his heavy tech'ing with early pushes like a 4-gate or 3 gate + robo or blink stalkers b/c most T are too overconfident in their wall-ins.
And early pushes are also great on maps w/ hard to defend naturals like Blistering and Oasis b/c preventing that mid-game expo is huge for P in this matchup, forcing T to come out into the open to fight.
It's maps like Lost Temple which I personally find is tough as their natural is so easily defendable, combined with the size of the map makes it hard to crack T's defense.
Regarding drop ships, you have to remember that Terran players would make multiple dropships even if they weren't a transport as they are also your medics, but Protoss players don't make shuttles unless you actually are going to use them as a dropship and they have no in-combat effect really (you can use it to warp in units, but you wouldn't need more than 1 really). So basically this maps drops a very easy an cost-effective for T but not at all for Protoss, which is another huge boon for T on maps like LT.
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I think storm needs a revamp. It needs to be a lot more like the old storm, covers a larger area and does 3 waves of damage and not 1 initial damage output.
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I think Recall should come from Warp Prism with a costly research at the support Bay.
You can play coy all you want and talk about dropping a Terran (lol?) but when is a Protoss going to have a fleet of Prisms ready to drop into his base? You think a single Prism with 2-4 units + Warpgate offers a legitimate threat to the turtle-Terran? Mules will recover any economic loss you inflict and you leave yourself open to a counter-attack.
Imagine how any SC1 PvT would play out if Protoss never got Recall, because that's how this match-up is shaping up.
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The only strategy i have found viable against a turtle terran with ST's is map control outexspanding him (or her - haha - as if ) and massing up voidrays and of course making chargelot with the rest og the Minerals. The Air upgrades are crucial cause they make the vr's soo much better! This build is only viable if you know he is in fact turtling with tanks...
I usually go gate. Gas, cyber, gas, hidden stargate, 2 more Gates and of course warp tech (as Soon as cyber is done. If he is being aggressive i Will only make a few voids and use Them for harash, but if he is going mech i Will expand and make additional stargates...
Let mé know what you Think... It seems to work in top 10 diamond, but to be honest tvp is still the hardest matchup for me, but that is usually because of very early terran pushes - especially proxy with mauraders...
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lol just stop playing with one control group -.-
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EPT
