EPTYou all keep saying that the protoss has to outmacro, harass, and be more mobile. destroy the terran army in the 2 seconds it takes him to siege his tanks. It shouldn't be an uphill battle, the playing field needs to be more even. Both protoss and zerg are having major trouble against terran right now, for pretty much the same reason. They have VERY hard counters to anything protoss or zerg can throw at them and they don't have trouble massing those counters. Zerg and protoss do now have those kinds of counters available. counters should be effective, but not unbeatable.
PVT unbalance in diamond league - Page 12
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bowserbowser
13 Posts
You all keep saying that the protoss has to outmacro, harass, and be more mobile. destroy the terran army in the 2 seconds it takes him to siege his tanks. It shouldn't be an uphill battle, the playing field needs to be more even. Both protoss and zerg are having major trouble against terran right now, for pretty much the same reason. They have VERY hard counters to anything protoss or zerg can throw at them and they don't have trouble massing those counters. Zerg and protoss do now have those kinds of counters available. counters should be effective, but not unbeatable. | ||
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lu_cid
United States428 Posts
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FaTLiP
United States57 Posts
On May 30 2010 05:56 lu_cid wrote: I have no idea how this blatant whine thread is still open. SO many terrible posts in here... Because the mod plays P and really fucking hates T right now  | ||
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Aether
Canada123 Posts
Getting fast stalkers and putting on a good amount of early pressure, and expanding if possible during this time. Stalkers are pretty annoying for terran to deal with early game because of their range and mobility. You can open their wall-off from relative safety and dance to kill marauders and marines (if they don't have concussive shells yet). Watching the tanks and trying to intercept them while they're moving with speed zealots. This is a lot harder if you're playing someone decent because they'll be much better at getting rid of observers, which is costly on gas. DTs. This is only really viable in certain situations. If I see a terran without any towers in his base and no expo up yet for extra scan energy I will often get DTs, if you split them up and send them to different parts of his base they're incredibly hard to deal with, they can only throw down so many scans if there aren't any ravens up. DTs are also great at catching armies on the move. If the guy is pumping vikings to protect his tanks he's probably not going to have a raven until pretty late in the game. I usually try to send 1 dt to the mineral line, and a couple of others to attack anything that can possibly provide vision (tech lab on a starport, engineering bay) if these go down he's completely screwed, even if he can scan once or twice. Generally I know what you're saying, once the terran get like 4-5 tanks, a decent MM ball and a few vikings the force is pretty insanely difficult to deal with, but I think there are still potential strategies people haven't really explored yet. Someone mentioned the vortex idea and that sounds like it could be very effective. At the very least you could vortex the MM ball and just take the tanks out, since they can't get into the vortex in time. | ||
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Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
On May 30 2010 05:12 Ryuu314 wrote: PvT is not imbalanced. It has become much harder than it was earlier in beta and is probably a lot harder than it was in BW, as well due to the loss of the arbiter and low viability of carriers. However, it's not imbalanced. Playing smart and economically will win you the matchup. Playing smart and economically is what the terran is also doing. When you say it is hard as a protoss, it sounds as if you mean a person would have more chances of winning, if in a PvT he happened to be the terran, since being on one side - protoss's - is harder than being on the other - terran's? Because if it's hard for one, it should be hard for the other as well, otherwise we can't call it balanced. It also seems that it's up to the terran to decide a strategy and to the protoss to try to counter it with whatever opened windows are left, is it close to the truth? | ||
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Seiniyta
Belgium1815 Posts
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Aether
Canada123 Posts
I think one of the most important things when fighting terran is exploiting the immobility of their mech units. Tanks and Thors are very powerful but also very slow and cumbersome. If you do 2-pronged attacks, drops, DTs, and other things that require a lot of mobility to deal with they will have significantly more trouble dealing with your attacks. -edit- yeah the guy above me beat me to it. Hallucination is another really good idea to draw the units attention or possibly get them out of position for a flank/drop. | ||
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willeesmalls
United States477 Posts
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haps
5 Posts
On May 30 2010 05:43 bowserbowser wrote: What it all comes down to is that if equal skilled players face each other, it is easier for the terran to win. that is an imbalance. You all keep saying that the protoss has to outmacro, harass, and be more mobile. destroy the terran army in the 2 seconds it takes him to siege his tanks. It shouldn't be an uphill battle, the playing field needs to be more even. Both protoss and zerg are having major trouble against terran right now, for pretty much the same reason. They have VERY hard counters to anything protoss or zerg can throw at them and they don't have trouble massing those counters. Zerg and protoss do now have those kinds of counters available. counters should be effective, but not unbeatable. Let me try to get this straight. You want to be able to 1a 2a into the terran's base and just win. That won't seem imbalanced, but what does seem imbalanced is that you have to use drops / blinks to put pressure on the terran? The fact that you have map control over a terran means absolutely nothing in your eyes because you can't get a 10 minute win? It is an uphill battle if you do nothing but 1a 2a b/c you won't get any results. Its been stated so many times that the front is defended well but the back and sides are pretty vulnerable. It is so ludacris to bitch and whine that you can not win in a RTS (the S stands for strategy) by head butting units into the opponent's base. Do you have any idea how hard it is to tech switch mid-late game when you are only mining out of around two bases? Granted some maps are easier to expand in than others, but there is no way for a terran to effectively cover all bases as pure mech. If they sacrifice some mech for mobility then they are that much more vulnerable at their front. A protoss, on the other hand, can keep expanding and just starve the terran. Why must 1a 2a be the be all. end all strat? Put some early pressure with stalkers. Need some examples? Watch TLO vs White-ra in the Altitude 3rd and 4th placement matches. If the terran is favoring marauders then just void ray up on him. The fact of the matter is that when you change your opponent SHOULD change and most good players will change. Then it becomes a battle of the players. Thats what this game means, in my eyes, the players win not the race. You can watch all these big tournies and you'll notice that the finals / semis are pretty diverse. It isn't just all terrans facing off b/c they eliminated the competition. This is a REAL TIME strategy game. That means you have to be some what flexible. You can not just keep doing what you WANT to do and expect the same results every single time. Well... at least when the opponent isn't a programmed computer. You have to change and when you change your opponent will change too... that is what makes it fun. If you really just want to play scripted things then why not try RPGs? You kill Lich King once or 1000 times... you do the same exact thing. | ||
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Tristy
Norway172 Posts
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On May 30 2010 04:41 StriverzG wrote: your forcefields pretty much were terrible. the first wall was for what purpose? it just delayed the fight. the second wall was for what purpose? you put a few behind their army? you're supposed to be splitting his army and destroying them piece by piece judging from the armies you could have won that easily. This was when the server was laggy, so FF was pretty hard to try and use. The first wall was nearly perfect though, I got like 8 free kills and he wasted stim. The second wall I just finished off to cut off reinforcements. If you think my FF was terrible in 1-2 second lag then I expect you to be able to do better 100% of the time though mr. professional. | ||
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Aether
Canada123 Posts
Not sure how this would work with the tank's minimum fire area, but I think when the vortex wears off they would be spread out enough to fire on themselves provided there were 2-3 sieged tanks inside. If it were late enough in the game that you were able to tech that much, you could also have templar storm the vortex as it finishes. Or you could vortex the bio ball, kill the tanks and throw all of your zealots into the vortex so they come out fighting at 0 range. Ghosts are the obvious concern, but it's not impossible. Even if none of these things work I think the point is there are tons of options that people haven't even considered, we can't really call imbalance after like 2 weeks on any given patch. Try new things, think about it, don't just a-move your zealot-sentry-colossus army toward his base. | ||
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FaTLiP
United States57 Posts
Protoss is supposed to be the bad ass exspensive high food count race. Zerg is supposed to be the extreamly fragile, easily massible, and hardcore macro race. Terran is supposed to be a weak unit by unit individual, sturdy, and range based race. That in there lies the second problem. Terran has great power early mid and late game. Doesnt really need any individual tech to counter each race, and is very very very cheap for min/dps for EVERY SINGLE UNIT. In short. Terran hits harder than toss. Terran can keep up with zerg macro (even outprouduce base per base) and has the amazing utility that made Terran what it was in BW. Remeber in BW where you could Marine+bat+medic against a toss, but often loss due to toss micro? well, in sc2 marauder elimates any and all micro from stalkers (laughable dps comapred to goon) and kites zealots to there death. Charge is close to a worthless upgrade mid/late game due to the mass range of terran units. (noobs players. quit recomonding fucking charge on forums! its confusing the new playres!!) Terrans 2 upgrades on the other hand give movement/dps and health/no micro for j00. To all you terran players (who actualy understand that toss going void rays are a free win for you) do you honestly beleive that your race is not OP at this current state? That for toss we must drop(lol toss is so fail at drop) flank from 8 1/2 sides, have 1+ base at all times, Throw away the A-move. Tech to teir 110.5 storm+forcefield+ micro have 3/3/3 upgrades on everything (lol toss's scale'n on ground is just wtf lame) and then go air? oh yeah...thats just to counter the 1.5+tank 1A+left click push? (dont even get me started and ghost+mm rush, or 1-1-1) Get real. Remeber....Toss units are supposed to be the bad asses  Yes i play all races. Yes terran is my least played. (i feel like i cheat when i play terran) yes i cry when im Z and see a terran go mech. Yes i cry when i see non retarded terran player when i play toss. /end rant | ||
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FaTLiP
United States57 Posts
On May 30 2010 08:37 Aether wrote: The more I think about it the more I think that the vortex ability has serious potential to crush this build. If you vortexed an army with sieged tanks in it and threw a few zealots in it could work like a massive zealot bomb, forcing the tanks to do tons of damage to their own bio ball for the cost of a few zealots. Not sure how this would work with the tank's minimum fire area, but I think when the vortex wears off they would be spread out enough to fire on themselves provided there were 2-3 sieged tanks inside. If it were late enough in the game that you were able to tech that much, you could also have templar storm the vortex as it finishes. Or you could vortex the bio ball, kill the tanks and throw all of your zealots into the vortex so they come out fighting at 0 range. Ghosts are the obvious concern, but it's not impossible. Even if none of these things work I think the point is there are tons of options that people haven't even considered, we can't really call imbalance after like 2 weeks on any given patch. Try new things, think about it, don't just a-move your zealot-sentry-colossus army toward his base. sigh. this quote makes me sad. The mamaship is such a fucking fail. if you get it, it gets FF. you left saying (shit....build a colo and 2 sentrys instead) | ||
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pyr0ma5ta
United States458 Posts
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On May 30 2010 05:43 bowserbowser wrote: What it all comes down to is that if equal skilled players face each other, it is easier for the terran to win. that is an imbalance. You all keep saying that the protoss has to outmacro, harass, and be more mobile. destroy the terran army in the 2 seconds it takes him to siege his tanks. It shouldn't be an uphill battle, the playing field needs to be more even. Both protoss and zerg are having major trouble against terran right now, for pretty much the same reason. They have VERY hard counters to anything protoss or zerg can throw at them and they don't have trouble massing those counters. Zerg and protoss do now have those kinds of counters available. counters should be effective, but not unbeatable. How are you supposed to make it even? Trying to do this gets dangerously close to homogenization of the various races. BW had this problem (Terran required significantly more APM, there was a very slight imbalance between the various races) and it still did quite well as a competitive e-sport. | ||
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Aether
Canada123 Posts
On May 30 2010 09:06 FaTLiP wrote: sigh. this quote makes me sad. The mamaship is such a fucking fail. if you get it, it gets FF. you left saying (shit....build a colo and 2 sentrys instead) Go ahead and re-read that last paragraph. Even if none of these things work I think the point is there are tons of options that people haven't even considered, we can't really call imbalance after like 2 weeks on any given patch. Try new things, think about it, don't just a-move your zealot-sentry-colossus army toward his base. All you're doing is crying and coming up with excuses. Try, I don't know... doing something other than just building colossus and crying when you get destroyed lol. | ||
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FaTLiP
United States57 Posts
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FaTLiP
United States57 Posts
All you're doing is crying and coming up with excuses. Try, I don't know... doing something other than just building colossus and crying when you get destroyed lol.Last edit: 2010-05-30 09:23:18 Don't assume you know me, Or know how i play. Colo's must be micro'd. If not they too get face raped costVcost terran 1/1.5. I've tried many many many different builds. I've tried 3/1 robo into expansion. 3/1 robo into colo. 2/1 stargate into exp. 2/1star/1robo into map control. Zerg the terran. Whats sad about terrans is that 2 drop ships can win the game against Toss at any point in the game. We must hold middle. We must spread out. We must do alot of things to compete with terran. 2. Only 2 dropships can win most games. | ||
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Scotchy
France24 Posts
What I do most of the time is the "Ninja build" (see thread) with fast blink stalkers and try to end the game right there trying to sneak in stalkers from the back door or wherever I'm not right in front of their ramp. I don't usually go DTs since every T player I've faced is so bad at macro that they always have like 100 energy sitting on their CCs at all times, so I go HT and get a few canons at my mineral line if I see that the T player gets a tech lab on his starport. If I don't end the game right there, the T will smash my face with 1a 2a with 2 siege mode tanks and a handful of MM. But most of mid-diamond T players are SOOO bad that it will actually end the game right there (hence 50% win). If T players can get into diamond with really poor play, then the race is unbalanced, it's not about win rates, it's just about skill level. If the T player can just sit in their base, no scout, no harrass, safely protect their natural (LT), build up a ~120 food army and then just 1a 2a and crush anything you can throw at them, then it's called imbalance, because the P player has to do LOTS of other things in order to keep up. HT is imba ? Are you serious ? Tanks have a longer range and actually do more damage and you don't need to micro them. Every gateway unit gets smashed by just pure marauders. Colossi gets smashed by marauders + tanks usually get them out before they do any kind of real damage. Immortals just get demolished by EMP which is instant + they have 5 range which means that they will die before barely getting into range by tanks + marauders, and those units who are supposedly hard counters to marauders and tanks, well they cost a lot more and they can't do shit. Phoenix / VRs get demolished by vikings due to their abused range and they make them anyways because it hard counters all but your HT tech. Now what you're saying is that in order to win, P has to outmicro and outmacro (the most funny part is that he's to do both at the same time) the Terran player and be in favorable position and can't let the T go on the offensive. And you call that balanced ? I guess we don't have the same definition of balanced. Don't tell me "yeah you sucked because T got a mixed army and you went one tech (either robo or stargate). It's not like the T can't switch tech like he would switch socks, and you would be WAYYY behind because of how much costly is for P to do a dual tech build. | ||
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