EPTPVT unbalance in diamond league - Page 8
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link0
United States1071 Posts
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On May 28 2010 09:44 Duelist wrote: Another example: If you didn't watch the game, don't click because it'll go right in the middle of the game. TLO's army 4 viks 16 marauders 10 marines 1 raven (no energy) 3 helions 2550m / 600g / 51 sp - sorry if i miss anything NonY's army 4 colossus 8 stalkers 5 zealots 4 sentries 2900m / 1600g / 58 sp What could have NonY done differently? not engage with a blatantly inferior army. NonY had too little Zealots to soak up the Marauder fire (and didn't have charge) and didn't target the Vikings with his Stalkers for entirely too long. Overall there was just little micro and not incredibly effective Force Fields on NonY's part. | ||
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Izzachar
Sweden285 Posts
On May 28 2010 09:44 Duelist wrote: Another example: If you didn't watch the game, don't click because it'll go right in the middle of the game. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoNziqiShmE#t=4m15s TLO's army 4 viks 16 marauders 10 marines 1 raven (no energy) 3 helions 2550m / 600g / 51 sp - sorry if i miss anything NonY's army 4 colossus 8 stalkers 5 zealots 4 sentries 2900m / 1600g / 58 sp What could have NonY done differently? Maybe if you watch the game a bit earlier? Nony got greedy on his first push IMO. He should have gotten an observer inside terrans base or outside and just poke in before his attack. If he had he would have seen the starport with reactor and the marauders. 3 stalkers and 5 zealots vs marine marauder just wasn't smart, sure it might have worked if it werent for the vikings. But if he scouted first IMO he should have run home to base again. He walks colossus up cliff without support from his ground so the vikings can almost snipe one colossus completely of before his ground even gets into the terran base, once there marauders own stalkers ofc and nony is lucky getting some kills. That attack nony lost so much. Those 2 extra colossus in that battle you described I think would tip the battle in nonys favor. | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On May 28 2010 05:51 Talia wrote: IMO is Forcefield the real factor in alll this "inbalance" It feels just wrong that this one ability changes the whole fight so freaking hard. I got the feeling that every P fight is just won if there are enough FF's... See the fight mentioned way before in this thread Nony vs. TLO + Show Spoiler + Nony had no Forcefield and lost an pretty even battle It's similar to Psi Storm in BW. Back then, if Protoss didn't have Psi Storm, they would lose. Period. It was the "great equalizer" because without it they'd get completely and utterly rolled. This time around, it seems like FF is that "great equalizer". | ||
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willeesmalls
United States477 Posts
How to play PvT well: 1) be patient, PvT fights are about positioning. 2) you should always have map control after very early game. 3) If you see Terran exp and bunker, take another expo 4) Scout well and deny drops 5) sentry/speedlot beats small (<60food) infantry armies. Forcefield behind his army. 6) Colossus/high templars kills everything else. 7) Don't whine if u grouped your HT's together and had 8 of them emp'd by one ghost. You played poorly. | ||
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potchip
Australia260 Posts
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Salv
Canada3083 Posts
On May 28 2010 09:44 Duelist wrote: Another example: If you didn't watch the game, don't click because it'll go right in the middle of the game. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoNziqiShmE#t=4m15s TLO's army 4 viks 16 marauders 10 marines 1 raven (no energy) 3 helions 2550m / 600g / 51 sp - sorry if i miss anything NonY's army 4 colossus 8 stalkers 5 zealots 4 sentries 2900m / 1600g / 58 sp What could have NonY done differently? How about actually attack with his full army? He moves up with colossi, they move back, and the rest of Nony's army engages. Colossi keep running back and just sit back while the rest of his army is being attacked; still be attacked by vikings. Attacks with his colossi finally, but the rest of his army is pretty much dead so the marauders focus the colossi down easily. | ||
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entrails
United States93 Posts
On May 28 2010 07:14 arb wrote: Gonna assume he's trolling because thats like the definition of imbalance.. if 2 equal players go head to head it shouldnt end aerly just because 1 player is protoss and his race is weaker, thats textbook imbalanced. nah i don't think that's a very accurate definition of balance, at least the way i look at it. balance is when 2 races/classes/characters or whatever are evenly matched when played at the highest level. if the guy was saying that the protoss always has to be at a much higher skill level than his opponent to win, then it's imbalanced, but i think he meant that basic, easy to execute terran strats demand that the protoss be at a high skill level if they want to counter them. that's not imbalanced as long as a highly skilled protoss against a highly skilled terran (doing that little extra) is a fair fight. you can't make a game that's perfectly balanced at every skill level. | ||
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Providence
United States125 Posts
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Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
1) He saw the vikings firing his colossus, so he sent them back so he could do 2) 2) He forcefield the ground troops so he can safely retreat a bit so his stalkers aren't receiving damage from the ground army and can FF the vikings. If you notice as soon as the forcefields went down, the stalkers started doing exactly that. | ||
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
On May 28 2010 03:35 Santriel wrote: You bet your ass they do :D Everyone always assumes otherwise tho ;-) Top terran military analysts all agree that "Knowing is half the battle" and that early warning is one of the keys to victory. The sensor tower is a vital tool for long-range surveillance of enemy movement and the detection of stealthed aggressors. Straight from the official website ^__^ http://eu.starcraft2.com/features/terran/sensortower.xml Edit: As a terran you should ALWAYS have 2 or 3 sensor towers running (and at least one over your base(s) to tell you if a sneaky observer is present) This is from way earlier in the thread, but I just tested this, and Sensor Towers DO NOT pick up cloaked units. ![[image loading]](http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/1919/terrain001.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/2946/sensortoweringame.jpg) Can't see them visibly, can't see them on the map, can't see them as red dots in the FoW. | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
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gedassan
Lithuania83 Posts
On May 27 2010 23:19 Inori wrote: I somewhat agree with topic starter and I also think that these replay requests are useless, because you can always find a flaw in players game and say "see, that's why you lost, terrans are okay!!" unless said player is like top pro level, which he's not. Problem is, terrans also do these mistakes and still come out with easy wins, but everybody will skip that little fact. It's funny how my stats are like 65-70% vs Prot and Zerg and 20% vs Terran. Must be terran skills yo. And yes I've played Terran a lot of times in 2v2 and 1v1 customs (both against diamond level players), I own my main race with said strats even without knowing BOs well. See, when you post a replay, you can notice the mistakes that both Protoss and Terran makes and try to rule which ones were worse. Without the replay, there is only your words. Replay evidence > words. Stating imbalance is serious business. Put some effort into it. | ||
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Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
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HolyOnes
Australia52 Posts
Also could carrying the HT`s in a warp prism protect them from emp? 0_o the possibilites | ||
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
what he should have done? I dont know. but I think he should have let the colossi untouched and just fokus on tlo's ground army with everything. its better to have gatemix vs 2vikings, than 2 colossi vs marauder army... | ||
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ensis
Germany340 Posts
we stated, that a terran army consisting out of marines, ravens, tanks, marauders, ghosts, and perhaps some vikings and medivacs, is pretty unbeatable for toss, while the tanks are in siege. this is where most of the users here agree. but this army lacks the mobility of toss. so the only possible way of defeating a terran army, is to wait for them to come out and catch them off guard with mass zealots and storms, which are the only 2 viable things vs. terran, cause stalkers get raped by everything + pdd. if the terran doesnt attack but tries to secure further expansions, the toss needs to overexpand him and harrass him. dts and prisms to a good job. i wouldnt build stalkers unleess i had to defend vs. air, cause the just suck in every fight. therefore you need to scout constantly and have visions over the whole map, with pylons, observors or haluzinated phoenixes. this is getting pretty hard for those sensor towers are just seeing every incoming threat. but still possible and necessary. so far, if you survive any pushes as toss, youre in pretty good shape. just having 4 expos and 30 gates pretty much kills every terran. the problem i see is, that if you look at the maps, they are just oooh sooo small. take lt for example. if youre spawning close, then the terran can just walk out of his base and siege his tanks up with no hope for the toss. on cross, its just, that those two rock-things at the watchtower basically make it all tight. i think as soon as the terrans just start sieging slowly in direction of your base it´ll get even harder for toss. another problem is this totally awesome airforce of terran. cause pdd + banshee >>>> every ground army toss can build up | ||
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Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
As far as i see, protoss has many harassing options, but so does terran. So you can't tell the protoss he has to harass to win. What if we inverted the roles, and i said the terran had to harass the protoss in order to win. Wouldn't that suddenly feel like i was putting chains in the terran and the protoss coming to the surface to breathe? My conclusion is that no one can say that x race winning is dependent on their harassament, when their harassment tools are no better than the other races, that should infact raise suspcion that something is wrong with matchup balance. If blink was cheaper/faster, same for dark shrine and warp prism, phoenixs produced faster, maybe protoss could really have a good time winning only by harassment and avoiding big fights, since they would lose them, but it doesn't seem protoss's harass is that much better than the terran's, but please do correct me if i'm wrong. | ||
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ensis
Germany340 Posts
whats your point then? are you saying that the match up is imbalanced? well dont get me wrong, i also think, that pvt is pretty hard, but for other reasons. imo a immobile -rather standing- army needs to be stronger then a mobile one. though the difference really seems toooo big. i mean in bw if a toss made a good flank + good storms + perhaps stasis and lotdrops, then he wouldnt win vs. a 200 pop army, but at least kill SOMETHING despite the situation as it is in sc2. your zealots are dead before they even reach the army. another point that differs the old pvt from the new is the pure army composition itself. in good old bw. you built tanks and some vultures. OUT. in sc2 you build a bio ball with a decent mech support. which makes the army as itself way more mobile, but by far not weaker. btw. it was the same in bw. if you could not just attack an expansion of the terran, then you had to "harass" aka recall, reaver/ht drop, carriers. in sc2 its the same. for you cant just attack an expansion or the main with the terran blop standing in front of it sieged up with sensor and missile towers, you just have to warp some units via prism in or blink some stalkers in. | ||
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Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
The protoss army is not that mobile compared to the terran, is it? Stalker and colossus are very mobile, but apart from that is there realy much more mobility from the protoss ground part? It takes 2 seconds ? for a tank to put itself on siege mode. If a terran goes imoble (read siege mode) it's because its convenient. Protoss can take advantage of that if the terran wants and lets them. From what i see, it seems terran is the strongest race atm. I rarely see a terran complaining about OP of the other two races, but the inverse i see a lot. Not saying it proves anything, but it should be worth looking into. | ||
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