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On May 29 2010 03:18 Duelist wrote:
I'm just stating what i see. Zergs complaining about Terran mech, Protoss complaining about Terran MMM + emp. I also see many people saying protoss should "look for favorable positions to engage" and "harass terrans eco", and to "avoid big confrontations vs the terran army", seems like teaching an underdog how to try to cheat his way into a win.
The protoss army is not that mobile compared to the terran, is it? Stalker and colossus are very mobile, but apart from that is there realy much more mobility from the protoss ground part? It takes 2 seconds ? for a tank to put itself on siege mode. If a terran goes imoble (read siege mode) it's because its convenient. Protoss can take advantage of that if the terran wants and lets them.
From what i see, it seems terran is the strongest race atm. I rarely see a terran complaining about OP of the other two races, but the inverse i see a lot. Not saying it proves anything, but it should be worth looking into.
Maybe because most P only know how to do a 4 gate push right into the tank line? Something that helps some of these cries is the way maps are made. Some (if not all) are a little small and the chokes favor a turtle terran.
On the other hand I stand by my first statement, dont 4gate push every game and play dead as soon as it fails. Try new things. And this is not teaching an underdog how to cheat his way into a win, its outsmarting your opponent. If the terran is sieged and standing still in a single place flank or go around and kill his base. The main army cant be everywhere (again this would work better with larger or less choke oriented maps I know). Keep expanding and making units, they go bio take colussus they go mech try using immortals, they are made to counter tanks, use some lots to soak up damage. Im not a P player so Im not that knowledgeable in P tactics but in my opinion the MU its not imbalanced.
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On May 29 2010 00:17 Duelist wrote:
As far as i see, protoss has many harassing options, but so does terran. So you can't tell the protoss he has to harass to win. What if we inverted the roles, and i said the terran had to harass the protoss in order to win. Wouldn't that suddenly feel like i was putting chains in the terran and the protoss coming to the surface to breathe?
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The issue isn't that P harass is better that T, it's that IF YOU ARE PLAYING A TURTLING TERRAN WHO IS MASSING YOU HAVE TO HARASS AND TAKE THE MAP. There is an early game period where maurader/marine with possibly 1 tank is very strong versus P, and after that is the timing where if P didn't tech hard or FE he has a stronger standing army than T, you need to use this timing to either do some damage or expand.
If you don't like how you have to play to beat a certain style you should either come up with a new counter or (more likely) quit playing SC 2... did you complain in BW that on big 4 player maps PvZ that you had to forge fast expand to keep up? Are you equally not OK with having to attack until you're good and ready? Is it too much to ask that when you're playing a race that can't turtle that you have to do some economic damage or macro harder than your opponent??
Did you ever watch any Flash TvPs from a few years back? Sometimes he harasses with vultures, sometimes it's effective, but often he did little to no damage and still steam-rolled his opponents if they didn't manage to do something to slow/prevent his 2/1 timing push. IMBA? No, just P not knowing what to do.
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On May 29 2010 00:17 Duelist wrote:
Harass is something all races can do, and it should be done despite everything else. But a race winning another should not depend only on harass. If it does, maybe the matchup is not fair. Unless they give the race that is dependent on harass some really good, and by good i mean better than the other race, harassment options, since its dependent on that, or then it should also be possible to win 1on1 army vs army.
As far as i see, protoss has many harassing options, but so does terran. So you can't tell the protoss he has to harass to win. What if we inverted the roles, and i said the terran had to harass the protoss in order to win. Wouldn't that suddenly feel like i was putting chains in the terran and the protoss coming to the surface to breathe?
My conclusion is that no one can say that x race winning is dependent on their harassament, when their harassment tools are no better than the other races, that should infact raise suspcion that something is wrong with matchup balance. If blink was cheaper/faster, same for dark shrine and warp prism, phoenixs produced faster, maybe protoss could really have a good time winning only by harassment and avoiding big fights, since they would lose them, but it doesn't seem protoss's harass is that much better than the terran's, but please do correct me if i'm wrong.
if terran isn't turtling, if they try to move out and attack straight on, they will lose if their army isn't much bigger. terran doesn't have the ability to move out and take map control midgame, because until they hit some huge mass, the protoss army is stronger, can split the terran army with forcefields, and is faster than the terran bioball except for the units hit by concussive shells. So don't tell me that the protoss army shouldn't have to harrass, because terran can't even move out onto the map without having a good chance of being decimated. If toss has any kind of scouting they can tell when the terran ball is trying to move out, when they unsiege their tanks, and when to move in. Dark shrine is fine, since it is an instant win if terran doesn't have enough detection, and it's not like dark templar are really weak anyways. have you seen nony's phoenix play? they do not need to be buffed. I've never actually seen a toss player use a warp prism so I can't say how good they are, but since they enable drops and in base production, I can't imagine they are underpowered. blink is a ridiculous spell that can completely change a fight if used properly, and is still being used and used well.
if terran had to harrass in order to win, then I would hope that it's army was at least somewhat more mobile. which it's really not atm.
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Don't forget Terrans complaining about TvT being too static. I think the improved tank AI is causing the balance issues personally, you could make terran positions pretty much unapproachable in BW too but it required a larger critical mass of tanks.
(also, maps like Incineration Zone don't help)
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sorry, but it´s just so lame to say, that protosses are dumb and are only 4 gating.
there are many tosses trying to play a long and worn out macro game but its hard.
and though lacking any arguments Duelist still made a point that it´s being quite strange, that everyones whining bout mech.
i just played a game vs terran on kulas
it´s pretty onesided, but it shows a straight terran 1/1/1 build, that got raped pretty hard.
the game is far from perfect, but i think, it shows how to play as p.
scouting, expanding, massing zeals and templars.
throwing his army to waste just to warp it in the other moment.
btw. fast banshee is no prob, cause it gets scouted by the phoenix and a robo (and a forge) can be set up quite in time
http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/6813
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I havn't looked through all the pages to see if this has been said already but take a look at the army comp for a second.
TLO's army:
17 marines, 11 Marauders, 3 ghosts
NonY's army:
12 Zealots, 3 immortals, 7 stalkers, 3 sentries
First off immortals are only good against marauders while they have their shield. EMP takes it out instantly making them take extra damage from marauders. Marauders will also do extra damage to the stalkers since they are an armored unit. The ghosts do extra damage to light units aka sentries and combine that with the emp removing guardian shield and force field the sentries go down. I don't remember in NonY had charge or not since i didnt even feel like watching the replay again but the ghosts and marines easily take out the zealots. TLO's army was formed specifically to deal with NonY's army. With that being said what could NonY have used instead? Colossi of course! There is no mech in that army at all just infantry units who are just waiting to be abused by that 9 range infantry melting ray. This match up has nothing to do with terran being over powered just extremely good play by TLO.
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On May 28 2010 20:09 Bibdy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 03:35 Santriel wrote:On May 28 2010 03:33 Bibdy wrote:
Erm, why attack the Raven when the instant the battle starts, its already done its job? That's like focus-firing a High Templar after its already blown all its energy on Psi Storms at the start of the fight.
And I'm pretty sure Sensor Towers don't spot cloaked units. You bet your ass they do :D Everyone always assumes otherwise tho ;-) Top terran military analysts all agree that "Knowing is half the battle" and that early warning is one of the keys to victory. The sensor tower is a vital tool for long-range surveillance of enemy movement and the detection of stealthed aggressors. Straight from the official website ^__^ http://eu.starcraft2.com/features/terran/sensortower.xmlEdit: As a terran you should ALWAYS have 2 or 3 sensor towers running (and at least one over your base(s) to tell you if a sneaky observer is present) This is from way earlier in the thread, but I just tested this, and Sensor Towers DO NOT pick up cloaked units. ![[image loading]](http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/1919/terrain001.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/2946/sensortoweringame.jpg) Can't see them visibly, can't see them on the map, can't see them as red dots in the FoW.
Move the units.
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yeah
this is what every toss should do
play viodray/collossi/templar
i havent watched the replay but, assuming he already had a robotics facility
the bay would cost 200/200, the upgrade costs 200/200 and a collossus costs 300/200
thats 700/600 for only 1 fucking collossus
this means cutting for example 5 stalkers and all 3 sentries
again its just for only 1 fucking collussus
and you just cant open with voidray and a collossus tech you brain
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On May 27 2010 22:25 Licmyobelisk wrote:
Can I have a replay of this imbalance PvT.. I really need some good strategies versus protoss right now
me too please. im a diamond terran and i lose more to toss than any other race.
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On May 29 2010 03:46 KobraKay wrote:
Maybe because most P only know how to do a 4 gate push right into the tank line? Something that helps some of these cries is the way maps are made. Some (if not all) are a little small and the choques favor a turtle terran.
On the other hand I stand by my first statement, dont 4gate push every game and play dead as soon as it fails. Try new things. And this is not teaching an underdog how to cheat his way into a win, its outsmarting your opponent. If the terran is sieged and standing still in a single place flank or go around and kill his base. The main army cant be everywhere (again this would work better with larger or less choke oriented maps I know). Keep expanding and making units, they go bio take colussus they go mech try using immortals, they are made to counter tanks, use some lots to soak up damage. Im not a P player so Im not that knowledgeable in P tactics but in my opinion the MU its not imbalanced.
Yeah, some of the maps can make PvT a complete pain in the ass. Steppes of War, for example, basically gives the terran a free third. The map is really small with even smaller chokepoints all over the place, making flanking terran positions impossible at times. Incineration zone, particularly with that narrow avenue through the middle of the map, has the same problems.
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On May 29 2010 03:46 KobraKay wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 03:18 Duelist wrote:
I'm just stating what i see. Zergs complaining about Terran mech, Protoss complaining about Terran MMM + emp. I also see many people saying protoss should "look for favorable positions to engage" and "harass terrans eco", and to "avoid big confrontations vs the terran army", seems like teaching an underdog how to try to cheat his way into a win.
The protoss army is not that mobile compared to the terran, is it? Stalker and colossus are very mobile, but apart from that is there realy much more mobility from the protoss ground part? It takes 2 seconds ? for a tank to put itself on siege mode. If a terran goes imoble (read siege mode) it's because its convenient. Protoss can take advantage of that if the terran wants and lets them.
From what i see, it seems terran is the strongest race atm. I rarely see a terran complaining about OP of the other two races, but the inverse i see a lot. Not saying it proves anything, but it should be worth looking into. Maybe because most P only know how to do a 4 gate push right into the tank line? Something that helps some of these cries is the way maps are made. Some (if not all) are a little small and the chokes favor a turtle terran. On the other hand I stand by my first statement, dont 4gate push every game and play dead as soon as it fails. Try new things. And this is not teaching an underdog how to cheat his way into a win, its outsmarting your opponent. If the terran is sieged and standing still in a single place flank or go around and kill his base. The main army cant be everywhere (again this would work better with larger or less choke oriented maps I know). Keep expanding and making units, they go bio take colussus they go mech try using immortals, they are made to counter tanks, use some lots to soak up damage. Im not a P player so Im not that knowledgeable in P tactics but in my opinion the MU its not imbalanced.
Oh hey, another thinly-veiled "Protoss are clearly just bad players" post.
You think we DON'T go running around with Void Rays to snipe buildings? That we DON'T do Immortal drops while they're sitting siege tanks in front of our base? That we DON'T try teching to different units when we see certain Terran unit compositions? That we DON'T try and outmacro them when they just camp on their asses?
Yeah, we always just rush head-first at a Siege Tank line with Gateway units and then leap on the forums complaining how unbalanced PvT is. Makes total sense...
The quality of posts on this forum is almost as bad as the official ones sometimes.
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Terran players posting that there isn't a balancing issue and saying that all protoss players are bad and dont know how to play should look back a few to when they were complaining about psi storm, and zealot rushes, and void rays, and stalkers actually having a chance against marauders.
Scissors is never going to say they have an unfair advantage against all of the paper "whiners".
It is unfair of you to sit back and turtle every game not having to harrass your opponent at all and then tell them that they shouldn't try to attack you but rather they should try to dominate the enitre map to keep you from winning?
Just fyi, building an acutual unit to scout your opponent and then micro managing that unit for a few seconds and then micro managing a harass and re-scouting to see if it's the proper time for you to expand or build up an army or if you should build a warp prism and try to backdoor them etc.
Doing all of that while macro managing your base to match the production of a terran player who just.
A. queues his units to build.
B. uses OC to scanner sweep your base and see what your unit composition is, whether or not you've expanded and what tech you have.
You're saying that for a toss player to win, they need to out smart you, out micro you, and perform equal macro while you just sit in your base and build up a timed push?
I'm sorry I thought terrans were turtles and toss were boomers.
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On May 29 2010 05:33 Bibdy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 03:46 KobraKay wrote:On May 29 2010 03:18 Duelist wrote:
I'm just stating what i see. Zergs complaining about Terran mech, Protoss complaining about Terran MMM + emp. I also see many people saying protoss should "look for favorable positions to engage" and "harass terrans eco", and to "avoid big confrontations vs the terran army", seems like teaching an underdog how to try to cheat his way into a win.
The protoss army is not that mobile compared to the terran, is it? Stalker and colossus are very mobile, but apart from that is there realy much more mobility from the protoss ground part? It takes 2 seconds ? for a tank to put itself on siege mode. If a terran goes imoble (read siege mode) it's because its convenient. Protoss can take advantage of that if the terran wants and lets them.
From what i see, it seems terran is the strongest race atm. I rarely see a terran complaining about OP of the other two races, but the inverse i see a lot. Not saying it proves anything, but it should be worth looking into. Maybe because most P only know how to do a 4 gate push right into the tank line? Something that helps some of these cries is the way maps are made. Some (if not all) are a little small and the chokes favor a turtle terran. On the other hand I stand by my first statement, dont 4gate push every game and play dead as soon as it fails. Try new things. And this is not teaching an underdog how to cheat his way into a win, its outsmarting your opponent. If the terran is sieged and standing still in a single place flank or go around and kill his base. The main army cant be everywhere (again this would work better with larger or less choke oriented maps I know). Keep expanding and making units, they go bio take colussus they go mech try using immortals, they are made to counter tanks, use some lots to soak up damage. Im not a P player so Im not that knowledgeable in P tactics but in my opinion the MU its not imbalanced. Oh hey, another thinly-veiled "Protoss are clearly just bad players" post. You think we DON'T go running around with Void Rays to snipe buildings? That we DON'T do Immortal drops while they're sitting siege tanks in front of our base? That we DON'T try teching to different units when we see certain Terran unit compositions? That we DON'T try and outmacro them when they just camp on their asses? Yeah, we always just rush head-first at a Siege Tank line with Gateway units and then leap on the forums complaining how unbalanced PvT is. Makes total sense... The quality of posts on this forum is almost as bad as the official ones sometimes.
Let's see a replay of you doing all of these things and still losing, I'm not baiting I'm serious, I'd like to see it.
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update:
just watched the rep and it´s just a typical example of protoss being abel to win, but only with way higher tech and way more minerals and gas invested in army (that still gets blown up) and better play overall.
http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/replays/32517
watch this replay.
it will show
1) tanks blow up everything
2) the terran had enough chances to win, but just sat back in his base waiting for better weather
3) even without ghosts, terran is scary
4) look at the gas; terran can go mmmg+ tank
5) and even if your army is spreaded, you still cant beat a terran of equal food
i´d say the terran played like crap.
no scouting and no ghosts (wtf?)
the scary thing bout these 2 games is, that even with the terran performing like crap, he still is a sirious danger to the toss.
this really leads me to the conclusion, that at equal skill levels, terran wins.
and you really seem to need tons of skill ahead your opponent, to actually win a game.
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On May 29 2010 05:35 bobcat wrote:
You're saying that for a toss player to win, they need to out smart you, out micro you, and perform equal macro while you just sit in your base and build up a timed push?
Sort of. It's not really outsmarting... how complicated it is it to harass while you macro? Or have an obs in front of his base so you can attack from 2 sides when he moves out? If you take a third and don't over-commit, sniping units while losing an equal value of units is to your advantage. If you want to sit on 2 base while T sits on 2 base you will lose. Your advantage is map control mid-game, use it or die.
But yes, the fact of the matter is at lower levels of play, T can sit in his base and hit S S D D G A S S V and win unless the Protoss (GOD FORBID) keeps the pressure on and expands more.
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On May 29 2010 05:59 DanielD wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 05:33 Bibdy wrote:On May 29 2010 03:46 KobraKay wrote:On May 29 2010 03:18 Duelist wrote:
I'm just stating what i see. Zergs complaining about Terran mech, Protoss complaining about Terran MMM + emp. I also see many people saying protoss should "look for favorable positions to engage" and "harass terrans eco", and to "avoid big confrontations vs the terran army", seems like teaching an underdog how to try to cheat his way into a win.
The protoss army is not that mobile compared to the terran, is it? Stalker and colossus are very mobile, but apart from that is there realy much more mobility from the protoss ground part? It takes 2 seconds ? for a tank to put itself on siege mode. If a terran goes imoble (read siege mode) it's because its convenient. Protoss can take advantage of that if the terran wants and lets them.
From what i see, it seems terran is the strongest race atm. I rarely see a terran complaining about OP of the other two races, but the inverse i see a lot. Not saying it proves anything, but it should be worth looking into. Maybe because most P only know how to do a 4 gate push right into the tank line? Something that helps some of these cries is the way maps are made. Some (if not all) are a little small and the chokes favor a turtle terran. On the other hand I stand by my first statement, dont 4gate push every game and play dead as soon as it fails. Try new things. And this is not teaching an underdog how to cheat his way into a win, its outsmarting your opponent. If the terran is sieged and standing still in a single place flank or go around and kill his base. The main army cant be everywhere (again this would work better with larger or less choke oriented maps I know). Keep expanding and making units, they go bio take colussus they go mech try using immortals, they are made to counter tanks, use some lots to soak up damage. Im not a P player so Im not that knowledgeable in P tactics but in my opinion the MU its not imbalanced. Oh hey, another thinly-veiled "Protoss are clearly just bad players" post. You think we DON'T go running around with Void Rays to snipe buildings? That we DON'T do Immortal drops while they're sitting siege tanks in front of our base? That we DON'T try teching to different units when we see certain Terran unit compositions? That we DON'T try and outmacro them when they just camp on their asses? Yeah, we always just rush head-first at a Siege Tank line with Gateway units and then leap on the forums complaining how unbalanced PvT is. Makes total sense... The quality of posts on this forum is almost as bad as the official ones sometimes. Let's see a replay of you doing all of these things and still losing, I'm not baiting I'm serious, I'd like to see it.
Would it be worth it? There's probably a billion things, of varying magnitudes, we could both point out that I did wrong to push the argument away from PvT imbalance. Replay-based arguments are just as permeable as theory-based ones.
I can certainly find replays when I get home where I outplayed the crap out of the Terran, yet barely eeked out a win, though.
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On May 29 2010 06:03 ensis wrote:update: just watched the rep and it´s just a typical example of protoss being abel to win, but only with way higher tech and way more minerals and gas invested in army (that still gets blown up) and better play overall. http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/replays/32517watch this replay. it will show 1) tanks blow up everything 2) the terran had enough chances to win, but just sat back in his base waiting for better weather 3) even without ghosts, terran is scary 4) look at the gas; terran can go mmmg+ tank 5) and even if your army is spreaded, you still cant beat a terran of equal food i´d say the terran played like crap. no scouting and no ghosts (wtf?) the scary thing bout these 2 games is, that even with the terran performing like crap, he still is a sirious danger to the toss. this really leads me to the conclusion, that at equal skill levels, terran wins. and you really seem to need tons of skill ahead your opponent, to actually win a game.
huk played horribly in that game, 2-3 hts would do more dmg than his whole army,
you need ht/colo (i feel colo is worse option in this particular MU) to kill huge ball of bio army (similar to pvz in sc bw) there will be more topics like this till people realize that
ps. from terran perspective i can say that theres nothing more scary than toss with few exps and storm tech.
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nah
already said huk played like a dozen shitloads, but it was just for comparison purpose on armies.
and yes, none doubts that spreaded hts on an open field just rape a bio ball, no matter what.
but the thing´s bout tanks.
tanks cant be stormed and rape the shit out of every incoming unit.
and thats all the rep should prove.
i mean after emp, every unit dies from 2 shots, if not from 1 plus splashdamage.
the only exception is immortals, but they have a range of 5 and tanks of 13.
by the time those overdimensionized dragoons reach your tanks, i could build a 200 sup carrier army plus mothership and 3.3.3 upgrades.
that means, if a bioball just can keep your army busy for lets say 5 seconds, then all your army is blown to dust.
not proving any imbalances itself, but rendering discussing bout engaging a terran head on pretty obsolet.
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well its obvious that chargining into camping terran army isnt good idea (neither allowing terran to sige tanks at your choke, it was basically game over if that happened in sc1), huk had whole map could do whatever he wanted, could take every expo and prevent terran further expoes waiting till he decides to move out (which is best time to attack) he got impatient attacked camping terran and lost most of his army (won game anyway) but it was matter of time till he builds 40 warpgates and just flood terran with mass (ah memorable game nada vs foru XDD)
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On May 29 2010 04:53 Curved wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 20:09 Bibdy wrote:On May 28 2010 03:35 Santriel wrote:On May 28 2010 03:33 Bibdy wrote:
Erm, why attack the Raven when the instant the battle starts, its already done its job? That's like focus-firing a High Templar after its already blown all its energy on Psi Storms at the start of the fight.
And I'm pretty sure Sensor Towers don't spot cloaked units. You bet your ass they do :D Everyone always assumes otherwise tho ;-) Top terran military analysts all agree that "Knowing is half the battle" and that early warning is one of the keys to victory. The sensor tower is a vital tool for long-range surveillance of enemy movement and the detection of stealthed aggressors. Straight from the official website ^__^ http://eu.starcraft2.com/features/terran/sensortower.xmlEdit: As a terran you should ALWAYS have 2 or 3 sensor towers running (and at least one over your base(s) to tell you if a sneaky observer is present) This is from way earlier in the thread, but I just tested this, and Sensor Towers DO NOT pick up cloaked units. Can't see them visibly, can't see them on the map, can't see them as red dots in the FoW. Move the units.
I just remade the map, plopped a Hellion down and ran around getting the DTs to chase after it and even after escaping, and them moving back to their starting positions, inside the FoW and within the bounds of the Sensor Tower, there was still absolutely no indicator from the Sensor Tower, whatsoever, of DTs being there.
It can't help you spot stealthed units.
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EPT
