On May 28 2010 05:19 Bibdy wrote: I don't know about lack of mobility. The moment you get Conc Shells you can go wherever you want. Did we forget about the Marauder fests from yestermonth, already?
Marauders aren't a problem. Pure marauders will get wrecked by just about any protoss player. The lack of mobility becomes important when the terran starts using tanks.
Did I say pure Marauders?
Many top Terrans have already learned that there is little reason to build ANY marauders against Toss anymore. Marauders in a mixed army /w tanks aren't good at all because they can't kite and have crappy dps vs chargelots and sentries. Unless I scout a blink stalker strategy, I will skip marauders entirely in favor of marines, ghosts, tanks, and thors.
On May 28 2010 04:37 Slunk wrote:Imbalance isn't just there it is created by those whiny kiddies.
No, balance and imbalance can be there. If no one ever complained and blizzard payed no attention to whinies, stats and replays since beta was released without patches, 90% of the players would be now protoss, and this game would be much less enjoyable. Even if now it was only 50.1%, we can still call it imbalance, though to some closed minds it might past unnoticed and call them idiots for that.
Either way, if you lose you should first look at all the little details and try to find a way to improve...
PvT is very hard as Terran players are getting smarter and have broken out of the mindset of "omg TvP imba ima lose."
However, I disagree with the OP about PvT being imbalanced. Protoss has to work much much harder than the Terran in order to win the game, but it's not imbalanced. You must have at least 1 base up on the Terran or be somehow ahead economically. Abuse the fact that Terran is immobile by out-expanding the Terran.
This matchup is turning very much into BW PvT where the Protoss simply cannot directly engage the Terran mid-late game army. Instead, you have to choke and starve out the Terran or to create engagements that are in your favor. For example, catching the Terran when his tanks are unseiged, etc...
It is much harder than BW PvT in that arbiters and carriers are no longer truly viable, and they played a very key role. However, good usage of phoenix in lifting the tanks, using obs to not just scout but to spot ghosts so you can feedback them, and careful positioning and flanking can still win you the game.
On May 28 2010 06:42 Ryuu314 wrote: However, I disagree with the OP about PvT being imbalanced. Protoss has to work much much harder than the Terran in order to win the game, but it's not imbalanced.
I could say the same for terrans and zergs when protoss was clearly OP. Working much harder to win a game, should rise suspiscion about how balanced the matchup is.
This matchup is turning very much into BW PvT where the Protoss simply cannot directly engage the Terran mid-late game army. Instead, you have to choke and starve out the Terran or to create engagements that are in your favor. For example, catching the Terran when his tanks are unseiged, etc...
[...]
and careful positioning and flanking can still win you the game.
Again I could quote this and tell terrans and zergs, to try to catch the colossus with their mighty 23 attack pre patch unprotected. Or to just run and not engage in battle when the protosses mothership uses planet cracker / time bomb - read, when the tanks are in siege mode -, or to try bait the protoss to falsely use their prepatch 2 radius psioni storm on one or two marines, so the rest of the army can safely know the HT are out of energy. "To create engagements in your favor" because 1on1 the protoss army would be better.
See, how i could say to be careful to the early beta protoss? It would be easily mistaken by a race harder to beat, and people would say for you to improve, shut up and don't whine, because you got "owned" by a better player when it was nothing but imbalanced, just like terran might be right now.
In PvT, i never allow the terran to simply macro up a critical mass of bioball +vikings + tanks. Depending on which strategy you choose:
Blink stalkers in back door before he can defend all positions with tanks.
Immortal drop, snipe depots and refineries. Whatever you do, do not let him get into the flow of macroing because if you let him, he'll get his "OP unbeatable OMG Hax combo of units".
Be creative when u play. I like to drop 2 immortals right next to a tank, his tank fires, and my immortals finish the tank with only their shields half broken. Chip away at his tanks while you build up a force depending on what you see in his base.
Doing these little annoying drops and harassments will set him off of his routine macro. Take advantage of being that annoying player that you've encountered before.
Terran balls with tanks are pretty hard to kill, and collosi go down fast to vikings or stimmed focus fire marauder. Protoss have either storm or collosi when they go up against terran endgame, both are pretty gas guzzling and can be hard countered easily with less resources from the terran.
On May 28 2010 06:42 Ryuu314 wrote: PvT is very hard as Terran players are getting smarter and have broken out of the mindset of "omg TvP imba ima lose."
However, I disagree with the OP about PvT being imbalanced. Protoss has to work much much harder than the Terran in order to win the game, but it's not imbalanced. You must have at least 1 base up on the Terran or be somehow ahead economically. Abuse the fact that Terran is immobile by out-expanding the Terran.
This matchup is turning very much into BW PvT where the Protoss simply cannot directly engage the Terran mid-late game army. Instead, you have to choke and starve out the Terran or to create engagements that are in your favor. For example, catching the Terran when his tanks are unseiged, etc...
It is much harder than BW PvT in that arbiters and carriers are no longer truly viable, and they played a very key role. However, good usage of phoenix in lifting the tanks, using obs to not just scout but to spot ghosts so you can feedback them, and careful positioning and flanking can still win you the game.
easier said than done because these maps are so cramped and small that a terran barely has to move an inch and he's knocking on your front door
I will have to agree with some others who have posted. You simply can't try to engage the T army head on because you will get demolished. You're going to have to do things like counter attacking, harassing, just being aggressive in general. You can't just expo+macro up like in BW and try to crush a timing push. However, I think with good storms and flanking you MIGHT be able to hold off an attack straight on
A solid terran army consists of: marine with possible marauders, tanks, possible hellions with upgrade to melt zealots, vikings, raven. Any observer and warp prism that comes near the army will evaporate from the vikings. Phoenix are rendered useless because they die instantly to marines/vikings (phoenix along with zealot/sentry are good for defending against an early 1/1/1 push but they're worse later in the game. Defending against this early push usually means you're ahead and should win the game, but this is a different scenario from what this topic is about). Do I think it's imbalanced? Slightly. I still feel siege tanks do way too much DPS (ever notice how insanely fast they shoot when not in siege mode?)
Replay PLZ! as a 1650 terran i have the exact opposite problem. If we go into late game i get owned. CauthonLuck talked about this as well and hes fucken good. replays please
I've not played enough PvT to comment meaningfully on the balance (I made first in my division in diamond, and did reasonably well in PvT with 1-2 gate stalker openings, but that doesn't really say anything) but I would suggest if there's a problem with pro-Terran imbalance, it's largely due to the small maps, and the potential threat of reaper or marauder play early which makes economic Protoss play risky.
On May 28 2010 06:42 Ryuu314 wrote: However, I disagree with the OP about PvT being imbalanced. Protoss has to work much much harder than the Terran in order to win the game, but it's not imbalanced.
I honestly don't get this statement - if protoss has to work much much harder than terran in order to win the game (which I also feel is the case), doesn't that mean terrans have a significant advantage in this matchup? As the protoss player has to give more effort and be more skilled than the terran opponent to win. A balanced game should mean evenly skilled players have close to 50/50 chances of winning. But if one side has to play a lot harder in order to win, that means its not properly balanced.
This is probably not a very feasible idea, but regardless, I would be incredibly interested in seeing high level pure random players setup matches in which they choose races and all take turns swapping races against each other - of course each random player has a stronger/weaker race, but if the sample is big enough, the results should be relatively fair i would think. In which I would be willing to put money that Terran will have the highest win rate % (imo of course! ^^)
Get a better unit composition? Besides who do you think won the series...
Mid-game, like in that game chargelots + HTs is stronger vs MMM IMO. I think where colossi/stalker shines is late gate when you can support them with mass sentry and abuse FF. But both unit comps have their pros and cons.
If that's the battle at 4:10, looks like protoss pulled the colossi back a bit too far resulting in them not shooting for a few crucial seconds in the middle of the fight.
- Nony's colossus didnt fight for half the fight (trying to kite vinkings ? you can't) - His colossus were front and took free hits from the vikings - Late guardian shield - FF didnt help there
And even if he would have lost it doesnt mean that the whole TvP is unbalanced. This battle may (since this looks easier for TLO) but it proves not much as a whole and Nony could have done better this battle.
P.S : TL.net strategy forum should not be about trolling and whining about imbalance but about finding strategies to go around what is trouble for a certain match-up. The whining forums can be found on blizzard's.
yet its fair when terran has to put turrets around his base to protect himself from dts, tell me why protoss users arent making storm drops anymore, terrans resort to all kind of harass tactics but lazy ass toss players expect to just exp mass army and 1a-tttt for the win (cant balame them, it works) ....
Well first off, look at the two different units. Protoss warp prism costs 200 minerals and 100 gas. Not to shabby, it has the ability to warp in gateway units and is slow as hell. Now the med vac costs 100 mins, 100 gas, and directly improves your teir 1/1.5 by at least 50%. Medvac wins.
Now second of all, look at the tech tree's. Terran has a a direct uninterupted tech scale. The protoss must go deep into one tech, research storm, build warp prisim, then drop. this is asking you to get your ass absolutly handed to you for the first 15 mins of the game. lets do a comp between the two. Both unit and tech total cost.
Medvac + rine stimmed = 1100, 425. 3 total buidling build times. (4 if tech included, was included in price.)
2 temp storm drop = 1300, 800. 5 total building build times. + research of storm time.
its extreamly simple. Not only will stim rines absolutly rape the min line (as well as storm will) but the gain the advantage of owning an expo out right.
And lastly. The part about protoss players mass army and 1a to victory is exactly where you go wrong. Terran at this stage of the game are the 1a end all race at the moment, And extreamly scary in a good players hand. With a linear tech line you can throw everything you want at the toss while he has to commit to one. (until expansions are saturated of course.) And another, pound for pound terran does win the Amove war. Its proven. You know it, we know it, SC2 beta KNOWS it. The tactics and micro invovled in a PvT matchup is heavly onesided to Amoving terrans (and stim button) and micro intensive spell blasting OMFGin protoss. Remeber you also have a unit(marauder) that directly counters ALL ground micro. That in there lies the problem. It is okay if one race is stronger at Amove than another. But taking away the lesser race's ability to micro those ground units(especialy at earlier stage) is ground breaking and devistating. A bad placed FF can hurt the toss just as much as the terran. Conc does not.
So good sir, please dont post rubbish in this forum misleading the newer players (i have a feeling you too are new as well) about IMBA's and the quality/attitude of the protoss community. Its bad enough we have all these lower lvl's QQing about race imbalance.
EPT
