Foreigners > Koreans? - Page 5

Koreans are basically robbing foreigners of their potential right now by denying them the chance to the same competitive environment

On April 03 2010 12:55 skypig wrote:


Because those foreigners were robbed of a fair competitive experience - please don't pretend like being discriminated against and neglected by your own team is anything close to a beneficial competitive environment. When I say "good environment", I mean open, unhindered competition between EVERYONE, no questions asked, so everyone can benefit from the games and get better accordingly. This is not happening in Korea right now, even amongst the Koreans, because of the way that teams are set up; you can't just play whoever you want, you have to play strictly with your teammates. If you step out of line, you get punished by KeSPA, or ostracized by your teammates, or whatever...it's all about money and reputation when it should be about true, unadulterated competition. It can happen in chess, it can happen in Street Fighter, but for some reason it can't happen in StarCraft.

On April 03 2010 12:55 skypig wrote:


Because those foreigners were robbed of a fair competitive experience - please don't pretend like being discriminated against and neglected by your own team is anything close to a beneficial competitive environment. When I say "good environment", I mean open, unhindered competition between EVERYONE, no questions asked, so everyone can benefit from the games and get better accordingly. This is not happening in Korea right now, even amongst the Koreans, because of the way that teams are set up; you can't just play whoever you want, you have to play strictly with your teammates. If you step out of line, you get punished by KeSPA, or ostracized by your teammates, or whatever...it's all about money and reputation when it should be about true, unadulterated competition. It can happen in chess, it can happen in Street Fighter, but for some reason it can't happen in StarCraft.

On April 03 2010 12:55 skypig wrote:


Because those foreigners were robbed of a fair competitive experience - please don't pretend like being discriminated against and neglected by your own team is anything close to a beneficial competitive environment. When I say "good environment", I mean open, unhindered competition between EVERYONE, no questions asked, so everyone can benefit from the games and get better accordingly. This is not happening in Korea right now, even amongst the Koreans, because of the way that teams are set up; you can't just play whoever you want, you have to play strictly with your teammates. If you step out of line, you get punished by KeSPA, or ostracized by your teammates, or whatever...it's all about money and reputation when it should be about true, unadulterated competition. It can happen in chess, it can happen in Street Fighter, but for some reason it can't happen in StarCraft.

On April 03 2010 12:34 skypig wrote:
Okay; I admit my thread title is misleading based on the point I'm trying to make. I realize now that all I'm trying to say is that foreigners have the potential to stand up to the Koreans if they are given the chance to participate in the same competitive environment. It's not like foreigners aren't willing to get better and take on bigger challenges; it's that they CAN'T because of the way the system works right now in Korea. No one can debate that foreigners would be just as good as Koreans if they had access to the same competitive environment.

And for all the people railing on Idra:

First of all, he HAS beaten Koreans before (and not just Tossgirl; he's taken games off of better players, and even without cheesing / being gay). That's pretty good, considering he's only had a couple years' exposure to their environment when they've had, oh let's see, like THEIR WHOLE LIFE'S TIME.....heh. The fact that Idra can beat them, although not most of the time, is a testament to the fact that foreigners do stand a chance if they get the right environment.

Secondly: Idra himself has not even had a fair chance at the competitive environment that would be necessary to show foreigners' potential. Yeah, he's part of a pro team, but like I said before, he's only been there a couple years, compared to the 7 - 10 years of play (or more) that his teammates have had. It's amazing that he's beaten as many Koreans as he has. Even now he's only getting a PART of the full competitive experience because 1.) he probably doesn't practice with his entire team and 2.) he doesn't practice with the rest of the Koreans. So even though he's in Korea, Idra is not getting full competitive experience, although he's getting much more than we are, which is evident by his skill level.

Thirdly: Put 20 - 30 of the best foreigners in Korea and give them a REAL competitive environment, where they can play and practice against the best of the best. Idra, Ret, Nony...ship them all over there, take the Korean shields down and expose those foreigners to the best of the best, and they'll get better because they have the environment to do so.

Of course, we can blame KeSPA and all the other money-grubbing corporations involved for making things the way they are, with Koreans being locked into their own teams and threatened with humiliation / loss of their job if they don't adhere to all the regulations. If the whole thing wasn't so commercialized, maybe Koreans would be more willing to actually play games with foreigners and risk losing a game or two for the greater good of helping people get better and rise to their full potential.

On April 03 2010 10:51 skypig wrote:


Both Koreans and foreigners can "twist assumptions", as you say, to win games; no one's debating that point. MY point is that the best foreigners CAN think well enough and play well enough to exploit Korean mistakes and beat Koreans; the biggest obstacle to this happening is simply the fact that foreigners can't "mix" with Korean players right now. If you had Flash and Jaedong taking turns each week playing 10 games with the best foreigners in the world, you would see them lose games, and not just because of cheese or other "gay" things, but because of being out-thought by foreigner opponents. Foreigners have brains, too.

On April 03 2010 13:55 genericname92 wrote:


Actually, if you play 10 games against flash, you'll forget how to win and go into a slump

On April 03 2010 14:11 jpak wrote:


It's true. Violet went into a month-long slump because of Flash. DAMN U FLASH!!

On April 03 2010 12:55 skypig wrote:


Because those foreigners were robbed of a fair competitive experience - please don't pretend like being discriminated against and neglected by your own team is anything close to a beneficial competitive environment. When I say "good environment", I mean open, unhindered competition between EVERYONE, no questions asked, so everyone can benefit from the games and get better accordingly. This is not happening in Korea right now, even amongst the Koreans, because of the way that teams are set up; you can't just play whoever you want, you have to play strictly with your teammates. If you step out of line, you get punished by KeSPA, or ostracized by your teammates, or whatever...it's all about money and reputation when it should be about true, unadulterated competition. It can happen in chess, it can happen in Street Fighter, but for some reason it can't happen in StarCraft.

On April 03 2010 14:50 petered wrote:
To me the most reasonable assumption is that any given population (koreans vs. foreigners in this case) has the same potential in almost any sport, be it esport or soccer or football or whatever. What makes a population "good" is how much time/effort/money (money being the most important) goes into the sport. Korea dominates starcraft because a larger portion of their population plays SC and they play against better competition and there are larger monetary incentives and they are also, to an extent, exclusive since it is so hard for a foreigner to break into the cultural barrier. It really has nothing to do with "potential" or "ability" or anything like that.