This has been on my mind for some time now - I can't help but think that if the top foreigners were allowed to play "in the mix" with the Koreans, then foreigners would be beating Koreans on a fairly regular basis. The fact that Boxer, Effort, and Bisu all got beaten by non-Koreans at the IESF that happened a while back seems to support this.
I think Koreans definitely have a "technical" edge in StarCraft in that they practice the game much more than the foreigners do and thus have a physical advantage in playing the game; however the fact that they isolate themselves and practice strictly with other Koreans also opens them up to make stupid mistakes and assumptions because they're always playing the same crowd of people, making them more vulnerable to "non-Korean" strategies and situations.
I hope StarCraft II forces those Koreans to get their hands dirty and compete against EVERYONE in the StarCraft world, not just other Koreans...then we'll see if they're really the best. I'm kinda overstepping myself here, but what do the rest of you think? I still maintain that the best foreigners could match, and even surpass, the Koreans if they were allowed to compete against them regularly.
If you practice 14 hours a day you're going to be good, no matter what ethnicity you are. Also, Korean progames come up with all the BW strategies and foreigners copy them, soo.. Don't kid yourself, Effort or Bisu could rock any foreigner.
I definitely think Koreans make less "stupid mistakes" than foreigners do. They are better in every way. Not only are their mechanics better but so is their game sense. In other words, they understand every aspect of this game better than anyone else does.
It's expected considering they are the most talented and hard working individuals at starcraft in the world.
Some foreigners say that Korean progamers "don't play with heart" or "have no style." It's all bullshit though of course.
You simply cannot compare foreigners and Korean Pros. It is very very simple: Korean Pros are pros - SC os their job , top foreigners are good players , but they are amatures. Hope you understand.. GG
I think Koreans definitely have a "technical" edge in StarCraft in that they practice the game much more than the foreigners do and thus have a physical advantage in playing the game; however the fact that they isolate themselves and practice strictly with other Koreans also opens them up to make stupid mistakes and assumptions because they're always playing the same crowd of people, making them more vulnerable to "non-Korean" strategies and situations.
I hope StarCraft II forces those Koreans to get their hands dirty and compete against EVERYONE in the StarCraft world, not just other Koreans...then we'll see if they're really the best. I'm kinda overstepping myself here, but what do the rest of you think? I still maintain that the best foreigners could match, and even surpass, the Koreans if they were allowed to compete against them regularly.
Strategy doesn't automatically trump technical skill since careful micro can sometimes overcome these disadvantages (what are these special foreigner strategies, anyway?). It's not like Koreans are playing strategically blind too - standard builds are standard because they work. Besides, don't you think there's a reason why the winners at WCG are always Korean?
Initially, foreigners could potentially match Koreans in SC2. However, the longer the game exists, the more of a disadvantage foreigners are at. It's simply too difficult to beat Korean progamers since they can dedicate the majority of their time to practice.
On April 03 2010 07:09 dronebabo wrote: by in the mix you mean playing hours and hours like the korean progamers sure but since they don't koreans win purely by outpracticing foreigners not by some magical gene
I thought kimchi gives you +100 apm while cheese only make you a noob.
The top koreans are way better than the top foreigners.
If the top foreigners had had the exact same opportunities / environment to play SC in, then I'm sure we'd have foreign players the same level as people like Flash, Jaedong, etc. It's not like there's something fundamental about Korean DNA that makes you better, it's purely the environment.
Even if Effort and Bisu are not hot now, I think no One out Korean could beat them in BO3. Why should they play foreigns, if Korean are playing better. SC1 Pros has pre-se technically edge over foreign in SC2.
On April 03 2010 07:09 dronebabo wrote: by in the mix you mean playing hours and hours like the korean progamers sure but since they don't koreans win purely by outpracticing foreigners not by some magical gene
I thought kimchi gives you +100 apm while cheese only make you a noob.
A large part of it is that the environment brings in a lot more new players. In just about any sport if you look at how many children's leagues there are it correlates to the top level talent. Canada is great in hockey, but it's not some special Canadian gene. There are just a ton of people playing hockey and a long history of hockey so you get coaches and experience. Since SC is big in Korea it has exposure and many kids try it out so you have a bigger pool of players with potential to reach the top. The best potential foreigner SC player has probably never played SC.
If by in the mix you mean just playing as much...no, if they were seperated from the korean scene they wouldn't have the same level of practice partners and would not be as good.
Even low level b teamers are better than all but a few foreigners could ever be in the curent foreign environment.
How would foreigners be beating koreans on a regular basis? Do you not realize that Koreans aren't exactly playing as if their season's salary depended on it when they play at ief/WCG/blizzcon.
Anyways, Koreans generally have flawless play. Even if you look at the top foreigners like PJ and F91, you see lots of mistakes in their play. Idra, who has been in Korean has gotten rid of these kinks in his games, but generally ends up doing disadvantage builds or underestimates his opponents.
On April 03 2010 07:35 Ver wrote: So because Korean pros only play against great strategies that makes them vulnerable to terrible ones? Might need to rethink this a bit.
Foreigners win by doing stupid shit cause they're fucking skilless newbie ofc.
Koreans are better in a lot more aspects than "technique", they know the game a lot better and know how to react to almost every scenario. The only thing I would give foreigners is that we are somehow smarter players, since we don't have our heads in "Robot Mode", but this won't apply to all koreans, for example we can se Sea.Really being such a technical player, its amazing how he won't miss a single unit, micro perfectly and macro too, but he lacks that "smart play" that UpMagic has, and UpMagic lacks the technique Sea.Really has, and that is why Flash is so freaking amazing, he has perfect technique and his play is pretty smart, his decisions and reading of the other player is just flawless
Thing is, even in SC2, unless e-Sports can be recognized more globally, "foreigners" in the long run won't be as good because the opportunity to be rewarded because of how good you are in SC only exists in Korea at the moment. I mean yeah there have been tournaments and such (such as Valor, IEF invitationals, TSL, etc.) but the Korean market has put in a system where you can get some sort of consistent payoff being competitive. So no, it isn't genetics or anything that makes Koreans good at what they do, it what they have in place that allows or motivates them to get better.
On April 03 2010 07:27 Insane wrote: The top koreans are way better than the top foreigners.
If the top foreigners had had the exact same opportunities / environment to play SC in, then I'm sure we'd have foreign players the same level as people like Flash, Jaedong, etc. It's not like there's something fundamental about Korean DNA that makes you better, it's purely the environment.
damit havent you read the news articles recently? it was discovered that flash contained 80% lead in his blood, making himself essentially a piloted robot (oxymoron, but w/e).
On April 03 2010 08:31 never_Nal wrote: Koreans are better in a lot more aspects than "technique", they know the game a lot better and know how to react to almost every scenario. The only thing I would give foreigners is that we are somehow smarter players, since we don't have our heads in "Robot Mode", but this won't apply to all koreans, for example we can se Sea.Really being such a technical player, its amazing how he won't miss a single unit, micro perfectly and macro too, but he lacks that "smart play" that UpMagic has, and UpMagic lacks the technique Sea.Really has, and that is why Flash is so freaking amazing, he has perfect technique and his play is pretty smart, his decisions and reading of the other player is just flawless
This is basically what I'm driving at; I think you're the first person that mentioned it - playing "smarter" can win you games, even if you are technically less solid than your opponent...I don't think I need to give examples of this. In fact, I think that there's sort of an inverse relationship between how much you THINK and how much you ACT in SC, because to consciously think, you have to slow down on your "acting" in case you do something stupid in that "robotic" way that we all know. I definitely think there are foreigners who could out-think Koreans, and use this advantage to win. Koreans DO make stupid mistakes, and they're not just "Oops I forgot to scout my opponent so now I make the wrong units" mistakes...they can make mistakes like "I DID scout my opponent but I don't know how to properly counter this because my Korean practice partners haven't used this against me before." Which is a mistake that can cost you games, no matter how sound your technical play is. Micro can only help so much.
Heck, the current featured article on Liquipedia right now has Artosis saying (and I quote): "(...) most people, including pro gamers, don't really understand how to play it against Mech exactly, they don't understand the fact that all you really have to do is protect your economy and mass up."
I remember reading that and thinking, "Huh, how ironic - the 'invincible' Koreans don't know how to counter something properly"...and then I remember thinking, "Hey, maybe they're just NOT THINKING because all they know how to do is ROBOT PLAY." Scout build -> initiate counter build. No thinking, just clicking...until they see something that hasn't been drilled into them a thousand times by their practice partners. Which is when they can lose because of not thinking.
Obviously I'm exaggerating a bit because you DO see Koreans adapting literally in-game to new things (at least the good Koreans) but my point is that they still have a high amount of "programming" in their gameplay that could be exploited by better-thinking opponents, even though the Koreans would have the physical, technical edge.
Also, I never implied that Koreans are "genetically better"; I'm not sure why people are thinking that I did. I admit that their practice environment is much, much better and I admit that you can't judge them because of the pathetic IESF losses...however I'm not willing to admit that they're "perfect" or "the best" by any means. I still think they can be "out-thought" to the point that foreigners (meaning people who don't have access to the Korean practice pool, for all you people that think I'm being racist) can win against them consistently until the Koreans, too, learn to think. StarCraft 2 will hopefully put this theory to the test by forcing Korean-foreigner games on a consistent basis so we can really see who ends up on top.
On April 03 2010 07:57 Azrael1111 wrote: Koreans are "isolating" themselves with a majority of competitive Starcraft players, how does that not make them better?
Because then that "minority" of competitive StarCraft players will show up with strategies and thought patterns that aren't familiar to the Koreans. Then the Koreans will wish that they weren't so isolated - they'll start losing games because they'll be unused to different strategies and different thought patterns, and be unable to adapt and still play technically perfect simultaneously. Even Flash can be beaten by opponents who out-think and out-smart him, even if his technical play is better...it's not like he never loses, even if he does win the majority of his games. If foreigners can recognize stupid Korean mistakes and act on them, they will win - it's that simple. Even better, if foreigners can exploit Korean assumptions and "popular strategy tendencies", then they can THINK their way to victory...you see Koreans doing this to Koreans; I'm not sure why foreigners can't do the same.
I think you're really confusing intelligent/smart play with risk-taking. Foreigners can snipe a game here and there by doing cheese builds, but they're not winning because they're outsmarting the koreans, cheese is just that difficult to block and varied you can't win every time.
A lot of your argument also seems to rely on the fact that when you say "koreans" you're ignoring the best ones, but when you say "foreigner" you're only talking about the very top ones who have had a chance to face koreans.
You now say that koreans can exploit assumptions by other koreans and foreigners can't do the same. So why are you saying that foreigners are smarter starcraft players than the koreans are.
One way to prove who is the smarter player is to have the smartest Starcraft players from the Koreans and the Foreigner coaching two players of similar skill level and see who wins.
On April 03 2010 09:33 Nytefish wrote: I think you're really confusing intelligent/smart play with risk-taking. Foreigners can snipe a game here and there by doing cheese builds, but they're not winning because they're outsmarting the koreans, cheese is just that difficult to block and varied you can't win every time.
A lot of your argument also seems to rely on the fact that when you say "koreans" you're ignoring the best ones, but when you say "foreigner" you're only talking about the very top ones who have had a chance to face koreans.
^^this
i had to sign in just to do this.
you are describing alot of regular korean players while the top ones like jaedong and flash...well they are good. btw wasnt a lot of korean top players like...oh idk BOXER who pretty much went "LOL GUYZ THATS NOT HOW YOU PLAY TERRAN, LET ME SHOW YOU THE INVINCI MODE."
How do you intend to consistently come up with new strategies like that? Such strategies can really only be used once - after that, they'll be analyzed to the extent that it won't really be that viable anymore. You act like these strategies are guaranteed victories as well, which is clearly not the case. Overall, it's not a reliable method of winning games.
Also, if said strategy doesn't involve an early timing push, you will inevitably have to deal with the Korean's own push. If you can defend against this without suffering crippling damage, you might have a chance, but because of their technical prowess, this isn't as easy as it sounds.
On April 03 2010 09:38 LunarDestiny wrote: To skypig: What are you trying to say?
You now say that koreans can exploit assumptions by other koreans and foreigners can't do the same. So why are you saying that foreigners are smarter starcraft players than the koreans are.
One way to prove who is the smarter player is to have the smartest Starcraft players from the Koreans and the Foreigner coaching two players of similar skill level and see who wins.
Foreigners CAN exploit assumptions of Korean players, and they also have the advantage of having playstyles that are less familiar to the Korean players because Koreans are used to playing other Korean players. Maybe the foreigners will use less-seen builds, maybe they'll deviate from build orders more often, maybe they'll use underused units/abilities...whatever the case, a foreigner has a "default" advantage on the side of STYLE when playing a Korean, while the Korean has the "default" edge of technical skill (micro, macro, multitasking, etc.). My point about Koreans out-thinking Koreans was only to show that Koreans CAN be "out-thought", because several people here have claimed that technical skill overrides any "mistakes" a Korean makes, which isn't true at all. Technical skill can certainly help compensate, but if you constantly get out-thought or tricked by your opponent, then you'll lose because your micro and macro can't save you from the consequences. This is as simple as faking 3-hatch muta with a spire and then coming out with lurk/ling and crushing the Terran outright at his natural because he spent too much on turrets (obviously there are more/better examples than that one, but you get the idea). And yes, Flash can lose to stuff like this, and he HAS lost to stuff like this.
I AM saying that Flash/Jaedong/whoever could be beaten by a top foreigner if the foreigner tricks/exploits/out-thinks them and acts upon it properly. My point is to emphasize that it will be EASIER for foreigners to do this because some of them already play in a "non-Korean" fashion in the sense that they don't stick as rigorously to the same builds/styles/strategies. This means that foreigners have a relatively good chance of winning "by default" simply because their default play style will be so much of a new thing for the Koreans to grasp and adapt to, while simultaneously maintaining their rate of decision-making and actions in general.
The only way I can see the foreigners screwing up a korean with a build order is if the build order sucks so much that the korean takes time to try and stop laughing.
On April 03 2010 08:31 never_Nal wrote: Koreans are better in a lot more aspects than "technique", they know the game a lot better and know how to react to almost every scenario. The only thing I would give foreigners is that we are somehow smarter players, since we don't have our heads in "Robot Mode", but this won't apply to all koreans, for example we can se Sea.Really being such a technical player, its amazing how he won't miss a single unit, micro perfectly and macro too, but he lacks that "smart play" that UpMagic has, and UpMagic lacks the technique Sea.Really has, and that is why Flash is so freaking amazing, he has perfect technique and his play is pretty smart, his decisions and reading of the other player is just flawless
This is basically what I'm driving at; I think you're the first person that mentioned it - playing "smarter" can win you games, even if you are technically less solid than your opponent...I don't think I need to give examples of this. In fact, I think that there's sort of an inverse relationship between how much you THINK and how much you ACT in SC, because to consciously think, you have to slow down on your "acting" in case you do something stupid in that "robotic" way that we all know. I definitely think there are foreigners who could out-think Koreans, and use this advantage to win. Koreans DO make stupid mistakes, and they're not just "Oops I forgot to scout my opponent so now I make the wrong units" mistakes...they can make mistakes like "I DID scout my opponent but I don't know how to properly counter this because my Korean practice partners haven't used this against me before." Which is a mistake that can cost you games, no matter how sound your technical play is. Micro can only help so much.
Heck, the current featured article on Liquipedia right now has Artosis saying (and I quote): "(...) most people, including pro gamers, don't really understand how to play it against Mech exactly, they don't understand the fact that all you really have to do is protect your economy and mass up."
I remember reading that and thinking, "Huh, how ironic - the 'invincible' Koreans don't know how to counter something properly"...and then I remember thinking, "Hey, maybe they're just NOT THINKING because all they know how to do is ROBOT PLAY." Scout build -> initiate counter build. No thinking, just clicking...until they see something that hasn't been drilled into them a thousand times by their practice partners. Which is when they can lose because of not thinking.
Obviously I'm exaggerating a bit because you DO see Koreans adapting literally in-game to new things (at least the good Koreans) but my point is that they still have a high amount of "programming" in their gameplay that could be exploited by better-thinking opponents, even though the Koreans would have the physical, technical edge.
Also, I never implied that Koreans are "genetically better"; I'm not sure why people are thinking that I did. I admit that their practice environment is much, much better and I admit that you can't judge them because of the pathetic IESF losses...however I'm not willing to admit that they're "perfect" or "the best" by any means. I still think they can be "out-thought" to the point that foreigners (meaning people who don't have access to the Korean practice pool, for all you people that think I'm being racist) can win against them consistently until the Koreans, too, learn to think. StarCraft 2 will hopefully put this theory to the test by forcing Korean-foreigner games on a consistent basis so we can really see who ends up on top.
it's a lot like poker. a good player usually plays standard early, betting x amount depending on position, cards, stage of game, etc. These plays usually signify to everyone what the player is doing without saying anything. The players follow these unspoken rules because they know it works and because somewhere, there is a poker textbook that has been reached by consensus regarding these things. For unorthodox moves to work, you have to have a solid grasp of the fundamental rules first. Pulling off some ignorant move early on might work for you the first few times, just in respect for the textbook, but eventually you'll get exposed.
And that's what starcraft is like. People call koreans "robotic" and foreigners "creative", but it's like calling standard poker play "robotic" and noob poker play as "creative". Koreans are plenty creative within the set of rules that have been firmly establish as standard, optimized play. And every so often, that creativity will break the molds of standard play, such as the mechanic craze or mnm wraiths in TvZ, but only with a firm plan to compensate the weaknesses of their deviation while capitalizing upon its strengths. On the other hand, until recently foreigners have not been able to replicate standard play. Part of it is because of the mechanical difficulties of starcraft, but part of it also the lesser motivation to practice and perfect these builds, which may be somewhat related to the perpetual touting of foreign intellect as creative and stylish.
(Strangely, it seems that once a play has been established as standard, or a certain play has been established as nonstandard, it's the foreigners who become dogmatic about the viability or nonviability of play. See any thread regarding corsair in TvP, DA in PvZ or Queens in ZvT to see a flood of hate-spewing rhetoric regarding the possibility of such play, with only the former having not seen time in pro starcraft. Most of their arguments are usually based around the following: 1. it will mess up your timing, 2. it costs too much, 3. if it was good the koreans would have already done it.)
of course, starcraft is different from poker because you don't have to macro to acquire chips/weapons. Perhaps the relative ease of starcraft2 will help reduce this mechanical gap and let it become more of a thinking person's game, where everyone is pretty much on equal playing field. But in something as undisciplined as a video game (in comparison to chess or poker), having discipline and perfecting optimized builds is a powerful advantage, no matter how easy the game. And I really don't think SC2 will level the playing field as much as people think: when micro moves conflict between difficult and easy, SC2 leans towards the easy, but that's not necessarily good for high level play. Things like prioritizing workers, auto surround, and 1A-ing an entire army might seem good but will eventually lead to a realization that it will require that much more work (and APM) to focusfire enemy units, surround an army, and avoid getting one shot by some devastating aoe
but do foreigners even understand what they are doing? all these years foreigner play has always been base on koreans not the other way around. sure they are "robots" but foreigners play isnt even as smart as "robots". Foreigner style play although different from koreans is much worst and even if it is to you "new" means its much easier for koreans to even beat that "new" strategies because that new startegy is nothing more but "weaker play". of course Koreans make mistakes but have you seen foreigners? they make 10x the mistakes.
On April 03 2010 07:57 Azrael1111 wrote: Koreans are "isolating" themselves with a majority of competitive Starcraft players, how does that not make them better?
Because then that "minority" of competitive StarCraft players will show up with strategies and thought patterns that aren't familiar to the Koreans. Then the Koreans will wish that they weren't so isolated - they'll start losing games because they'll be unused to different strategies and different thought patterns, and be unable to adapt and still play technically perfect simultaneously. Even Flash can be beaten by opponents who out-think and out-smart him, even if his technical play is better...it's not like he never loses, even if he does win the majority of his games. If foreigners can recognize stupid Korean mistakes and act on them, they will win - it's that simple. Even better, if foreigners can exploit Korean assumptions and "popular strategy tendencies", then they can THINK their way to victory...you see Koreans doing this to Koreans; I'm not sure why foreigners can't do the same.
I don't understand why foreigners would be smarter than Koreans. Koreans pros are better than foreigners because the talent pool is much bigger in Korea. There are simply more people playing starcraft in Korea than all of the world combined. To be a Korean Pro, you have to have the best mechanics and be one of the best thinkers in starcraft. Because of the bigger player population of Korea, I'm certain that Koreans would "out think" foreigners because they are more talented starcraft players.
On April 03 2010 09:38 LunarDestiny wrote: To skypig: What are you trying to say?
You now say that koreans can exploit assumptions by other koreans and foreigners can't do the same. So why are you saying that foreigners are smarter starcraft players than the koreans are.
One way to prove who is the smarter player is to have the smartest Starcraft players from the Koreans and the Foreigner coaching two players of similar skill level and see who wins.
Foreigners CAN exploit assumptions of Korean players, and they also have the advantage of having playstyles that are less familiar to the Korean players because Koreans are used to playing other Korean players. Maybe the foreigners will use less-seen builds, maybe they'll deviate from build orders more often, maybe they'll use underused units/abilities...whatever the case, a foreigner has a "default" advantage on the side of STYLE when playing a Korean, while the Korean has the "default" edge of technical skill (micro, macro, multitasking, etc.). My point about Koreans out-thinking Koreans was only to show that Koreans CAN be "out-thought", because several people here have claimed that technical skill overrides any "mistakes" a Korean makes, which isn't true at all. Technical skill can certainly help compensate, but if you constantly get out-thought or tricked by your opponent, then you'll lose because your micro and macro can't save you from the consequences. This is as simple as faking 3-hatch muta with a spire and then coming out with lurk/ling and crushing the Terran outright at his natural because he spent too much on turrets (obviously there are more/better examples than that one, but you get the idea). And yes, Flash can lose to stuff like this, and he HAS lost to stuff like this.
I AM saying that Flash/Jaedong/whoever could be beaten by a top foreigner if the foreigner tricks/exploits/out-thinks them and acts upon it properly. My point is to emphasize that it will be EASIER for foreigners to do this because some of them already play in a "non-Korean" fashion in the sense that they don't stick as rigorously to the same builds/styles/strategies. This means that foreigners have a relatively good chance of winning "by default" simply because their default play style will be so much of a new thing for the Koreans to grasp and adapt to, while simultaneously maintaining their rate of decision-making and actions in general.
Hi.
Koreans CAN exploit the assumptions of foreigners, and they also have the advantage of having playstyles that are less familiar to the foreign players because foreigners are used to playing other foreign players. Maybe the Korean will use better builds, maybe they won't skrew up a good build order. A Korean has a "default" advantage on the side of SKILL when playing a foreigner. Thinking skill can certainly help compensate, but if you constantly get out macroed and out microed by your opponent, then you'll lose because your "thought" can't save you from the consequences. And yes, every foreigner ever can lose to stuff like this, and they HAVE lost to stuff like this.
I AM saying that Nony/White-Ra/whoever could be beaten by a B-team Korean if the B-team Korean out macros/out micros them and acts upon it properly. My point is to emphasize that it will be EASIER for Koreans to do this because some of them already play in a "Korean" fashion in the sense that they play better. This means that Koreans have a relatively good chance of winning "by default" simply because of their default mechanics being too much for the foreigner to compete with and adapt to.
I think you also assume that korean players don't "out think" or take advantage of "foreigner" play styles. Foreigners can just as easily be mind fucked by their opponents. There is a reason we don't have anyone who stands even close to a chance at competing at the same level.
Foreigners haven't come up with anything new in Starcraft since like the super early days of the game. How the hell do you think Koreans win games against each other? They twist the assumptions of what has been standardized. The Koreans innovate the game all the time and the game seriously changes every couple of months gradually and sometimes even suddenly. This assumption that Koreans are all mindless drones is the most stupid and trite argument that foreigners bring up all the time. It's like the bad foreigner's attempt to make himself feel better.
On April 03 2010 10:25 koreasilver wrote: Foreigners haven't come up with anything new in Starcraft since like the super early days of the game. How the hell do you think Koreans win games against each other? They twist the assumptions of what has been standardized. The Koreans innovate the game all the time and the game seriously changes every couple of months gradually and sometimes even suddenly. This assumption that Koreans are all mindless drones is the most stupid and trite argument that foreigners bring up all the time. It's like the bad foreigner's attempt to make himself feel better.
YO PROXYING A HATCH IN YOUR MAIN ZVZ IS ROBOTIC DONT YOU KNOW
On April 03 2010 10:25 koreasilver wrote: Foreigners haven't come up with anything new in Starcraft since like the super early days of the game. How the hell do you think Koreans win games against each other? They twist the assumptions of what has been standardized. The Koreans innovate the game all the time and the game seriously changes every couple of months gradually and sometimes even suddenly. This assumption that Koreans are all mindless drones is the most stupid and trite argument that foreigners bring up all the time. It's like the bad foreigner's attempt to make himself feel better.
YO PROXYING A HATCH IN YOUR MAIN ZVZ IS ROBOTIC DONT YOU KNOW
HEY MAN BRINGING SUDDEN AND HUGE PARADIGN SHIFTS TO THE MOST STABLE MATCHUP IN A MATTER OF A FEW WEEKS ISN'T INNOVATIVE BECAUSE YOU'RE STILL USING THE SAME UNITS DON'T YOU KNOW.
On April 03 2010 10:25 koreasilver wrote: Foreigners haven't come up with anything new in Starcraft since like the super early days of the game. How the hell do you think Koreans win games against each other? They twist the assumptions of what has been standardized. The Koreans innovate the game all the time and the game seriously changes every couple of months gradually and sometimes even suddenly. This assumption that Koreans are all mindless drones is the most stupid and trite argument that foreigners bring up all the time. It's like the bad foreigner's attempt to make himself feel better.
Both Koreans and foreigners can "twist assumptions", as you say, to win games; no one's debating that point. MY point is that the best foreigners CAN think well enough and play well enough to exploit Korean mistakes and beat Koreans; the biggest obstacle to this happening is simply the fact that foreigners can't "mix" with Korean players right now. If you had Flash and Jaedong taking turns each week playing 10 games with the best foreigners in the world, you would see them lose games, and not just because of cheese or other "gay" things, but because of being out-thought by foreigner opponents. Foreigners have brains, too.
Plus you're forgetting that Koreans get stuck in their little "phases" of strategy until the next "phase" comes about and suddenly makes everything else "obsolete" (or at least out of style for the time being). This means that, by definition, at any given point there are weaknesses in the way that Koreans (and really anyone) plays, and there are always ways to capitalize on them. There is no "magic build order" or "magic strategy"; even "standard play" can be beaten quite soundly as long as you're one step ahead, mentally, of your opponent. And I'm saying that foreigners are GOOD enough to where they COULD be one step ahead of Korean opponents, if they're really on top of their game. It's happened before, although not often, but just the fact that it happened shows that it would happen much more often if foreigners played Koreans more.
Let's see what happens when you get the Koreans clashing with foreigners on StarCraft II...I'm willing to bet that, barring any imbalanced matchups (which hopefully won't exist by then), you'll see the likes of Flash and Jaedong getting hammered by foreigners. Not due to cheese, not due to gay stuff, but due to out-thinking and out-smarting.
Except every premises of your argument is completely moot because Koreans are like the "foreigners" that you are deifying.
You are seriously ignorant if you think Koreans are like the way you think they are and foreigners aren't. People like you are the ones that probably don't even understand how much change there has been in every single matchup in the past two years and how sweeping some of these changes were, and how a lot of these changes came extremely suddenly by all sorts of players. You're basically trying to argue that Koreans don't think more than foreigners, which is ROFL wrong.
"Koreans only win because they have better mechanics". Sounds like the rantings of a noob.
On April 03 2010 06:53 Xxio wrote: If you practice 14 hours a day you're going to be good, no matter what ethnicity you are. Also, Korean progames come up with all the BW strategies and foreigners copy them, soo.. Don't kid yourself, Effort or Bisu could rock any foreigner.
I think it depends on how you practiced. Playing 14 hours a day will make you good, but actually working at correcting your flaws and deliberately trying to get better is what makes you great.
Pray tell, why have all innovations in every aspect of the game come from Koreans for the past ~7 years instead of anywhere else? Do you seriously think foreigners understand the game deeper than the Korean professionals? Because you do, and because you do you're ignorant. There is nothing else that can be said.
And sorry, but from what I have been reading from some of the higher level players, the strategy in the non-Korean SC2 beta servers are behind the Asia server. So much for your magical clairvoyant foreign players.
Let's see what happens when you get the Koreans clashing with foreigners on StarCraft II...I'm willing to bet that, barring any imbalanced matchups (which hopefully won't exist by then), you'll see the likes of Flash and Jaedong getting hammered by foreigners. Not due to cheese, not due to gay stuff, but due to out-thinking and out-smarting.
Sounds like you've just got a wee bit of foreigner pride there.
You're delusional if you think that foreigners will just be able to outsmart Koreans like the way you make it out to be. It's not like Koreans are robots.
Especially for SCII; when there's no standard play, what makes you think that foreigners will have the advantage over Koreans? I'd bet the opposite. There's a reason why all the builds come from Korea. They have the environment for it; alot of serious players, people who make a living off of this sort of stuff.
It's like you just clump Koreans together into "robot" and foreigners into "smart humans".
Even if foreigners were GIVEN the chance to practice like Koreans do, I'd still go with Koreans. Generally speaking, their work ethics are probably better than foreigners.
On April 03 2010 10:51 skypig wrote: Both Koreans and foreigners can "twist assumptions", as you say, to win games; no one's debating that point. MY point is that the best foreigners CAN think well enough and play well enough to exploit Korean mistakes and beat Koreans; the biggest obstacle to this happening is simply the fact that foreigners can't "mix" with Korean players right now. If you had Flash and Jaedong taking turns each week playing 10 games with the best foreigners in the world, you would see them lose games, and not just because of cheese or other "gay" things, but because of being out-thought by foreigner opponents. Foreigners have brains, too.
What are you saying here? It makes no sense. The best foreigner is Idra right now and he had been playing with korean progamers for 2 years now and his record against them isn't great at all.
Now look at the iccup (where both foreigners and koreans are playing against each other). Scroll down from the top ranked and try to find the first non-korean players.
Original post seems to suggest that if foreigners are to practice the same amount as korean pros, that somehow magically, they would have a consistent advantage over koreans... ??? this is based on IESF when bisu and effort lost to foreigners?
In my opinion, their loss would be most attributed to the fact that bisu/effort have no knowledge of the players they are playing, however, the foreigners watched these pros play and know their styles.
On April 03 2010 10:55 koreasilver wrote: Except every premises of your argument is completely moot because Koreans are like the "foreigners" that you are deifying.
You are seriously ignorant if you think Koreans are like the way you think they are and foreigners aren't. People like you are the ones that probably don't even understand how much change there has been in every single matchup in the past two years and how sweeping some of these changes were, and how a lot of these changes came extremely suddenly by all sorts of players. You're basically trying to argue that Koreans don't think more than foreigners, which is ROFL wrong.
"Koreans only win because they have better mechanics". Sounds like the rantings of a noob.
Hoooo....silly me; I didn't see your name. Sorry if I got you upset with this "anti-Korean" talk (if you actually are Korean), but you're overreacting anyway - please calm yourself down; I'm not trying to rile you up.
You're still missing the basic premise of my point: if foreigners actually had the chance to practice against Koreans on a daily, constant basis, they would begin out-thinking, out-smarting, and beating them. The only reason this isn't happening right now is because they DON'T have the chance for that kind of competitive exposure. If Idra, Nony, other foreigners, etc. all had the competitive environment that the Koreans have, then yes, they would start beating Koreans, they would start finding the weaknesses of Korean play and exploiting them, just like the Koreans themselves do to each other.
Heh, I just realized - you're blindly glorifying Koreans. You make it sound like Koreans = inherently, genetically better. They're good because of their environment. If you allowed foreigners to become part of that environment, then they would start beating Koreans. They have the brain and they have the creativity, just as much and probably more because they aren't as "locked in" to practice schemes like the Koreans ARE.
Basically what I'm saying is that foreigners hold a bunch of pent-up potential that can be released if they're allowed to practice with the Koreans...and this doesn't mean being restrained and forced to play with B-teamers / sub-par Koreans...this means playing with the cream of the crop and being exposed to high-level play so you can actually be playing on the same level.
Or, you can think about it like this: if you have Bruce Lee on one hand, and an untrained fighter on the other hand, Bruce Lee will always destroy the other fighter. However, if you allow the untrained fighter to train with Bruce Lee, eventually he will get as good, if not better, than Bruce Lee, and he will be able to identify Lee's mistakes, capitalize on them, and start winning fights. The POTENTIAL is there...but you have to give it the CHANCE to manifest itself.
Foreigners are like the untrained fighter right now - they have the potential and the ability to beat, if not outright dominate, Korean players. However, they can't actually achieve that unless they're given the same competitive environment, the same "training" that the Koreans have. And then they will start winning and beating them. It's quite simple, really.
Koreans are basically robbing foreigners of their potential right now by denying them the chance to the same competitive environment - i.e. playing with high-level players. If foreigners have that environment like the Koreans do, then they will start winning. Koreans right now are "shielded" from foreigner competition (except in cases like the IESF, which, ironically, instead of being an example of Korean domination, was an example of top Koreans getting beaten by players who practice much less.....but maybe think more.....?). Once that shield goes down, rest assured, Korean losses will start to rack up. Pretty soon the playing field will be even.
I never said Koreans were genetically better. "Korean" is pretty much synonymous to "professional" when talking about Starcraft players. The fact that you think amateurs think more and think better than professionals is what is laughable about every argument you have been making, and your idealistic thought that foreigners would be magically better than Koreans if they spent as much time practising. You are thoroughly implying that Koreans think like robots, which is wrong, and that foreigners think better than Koreans, of which there is no evidence for at all. The argument you have been presenting has been shown over and over again by ignorant idiots like you over the years and every time there has been no factual basis to any of the arguments.
And Koreans have never robbed foreigners of the chance to have the same competitive environment. It's just that Koreans care much more and have made it possible for their scene to exist. Foreigners never have.
And in the end, your arguments are all baseless and continue to be rooted in nothing tangible. The ramblings of an ignorant noob.
there is a korean-foreigner distinction in BW because in korea their is a true esport industry which develops "professionals". there is no such industry anywhere in the world yet for sc2. players are all on even ground in terms of researching and learning this new game.
unless you suppose that 'reans have some sort of passive racial advantage when it comes to playing games?
to Sky Pig: I do not disagree at all that given the same environment, foreigners would have the potential to be just as good as a Korean professional. However, I would like to point out and remind you that Idra has been in Korea for two years and is currently a B-league player.
You're idea that the foreigners would out think the Korean players can be done in a sniper situation, but in an actual series, I would have to back the mechanics and skill of the as well as the great strategies of the korean players. You seem to be disregarding the fact that fast expand play became so prevalent because it is a better build overall and negated disadvantages that the previous builds had.
One last thing that I'd want to point out is that you say that the foreigners would out think, outsmart, and beat Koreans. I find it hard to believe that if Nony, Ret, and others joined Idra in Korea then they would suddenly be able to beat the likes of Jaedong, Flash, Stork. You seem to be attacking KoreA_silver for glorifying Koreans, but I think you yourself are trying to say that the foreigners are SUPERIOR to koreans.
On April 03 2010 07:27 Insane wrote: The top koreans are way better than the top foreigners.
If the top foreigners had had the exact same opportunities / environment to play SC in, then I'm sure we'd have foreign players the same level as people like Flash, Jaedong, etc. It's not like there's something fundamental about Korean DNA that makes you better, it's purely the environment.
yeah i agree with this entirely, it's just like any nation that's really good at a sport it's usually because it's taken most seriously there so like almost everyone going up has a dream to be a pro had that so they have a massive talent pool to draw from to find the best
On April 03 2010 11:22 skypig wrote: You're still missing the basic premise of my point: if foreigners actually had the chance to practice against Koreans on a daily, constant basis, they would begin out-thinking, out-smarting, and beating them.
Would it not go both ways? If foreigners (with the same amount of quality practice) play against and get used to Koreans, Koreans (who also spend time playing foreigners on regular basis) should be able to get used to playing against foreigners as well.
I think it depends. If you face a variety of opponents, you should be able to diversify your playing styles to deal with each of them. All it takes is time.
Lol i find it funny that this thread is event this long. The point is when SCII comes out the "foreign" scene will still have maybe 10k "Pro" players while koreans would still have the sponsors and their gaming channel.. As long as the foriegn E-Sports scene suddenly goes BOOM and expands 100% foriegn players wont be able to compete with koreans. They just have more time, money, people, and everything else to sustain progaming scene much bigger.
As for your thoughts on foriegn players being able to compete with koreans evenly if they have the same resources. I agree since theres no special gene that makes koreans play better in Starcraft. But you have too look at starcraft 1 as well. If koreans are like 70% better then the foriegners that skills will translate in to SC2 even if that skill is just managing your units or hacving a slightly better micro. Maybe if korean pro gaming scene dies in SC2 then foriegner will be able to compete with koreans but i dont think that people outside of korea has enough time to build up a decent skill before korean progamers start to own everything again.
You're still missing the basic premise of my point: if foreigners actually had the chance to practice against Koreans on a daily, constant basis, they would begin out-thinking, out-smarting, and beating them....
Heh, I just realized - you're blindly glorifying Koreans.
And you're blindly glorifying foreigners. You *might* be able to make a point of how koreans mostly practice standard level play and basic mechanics while foreigners try fancy strategies (aka stupid shit). That's more of a west vs east thing. But even if we assume this is true, and even if foreigners get the same amount of practice time, I still don't see them totally owning koreans like you say they would. In fact, I think the koreans would still come out on top because at the end of the day, standard play is going to net you more wins.
Koreans have dominated SC for nearly its entire history, so you can't attribute Korea's success solely to a better progaming scene. Part of it is culture, which leads to more practice hours and more standard builds, and part of it is a higher average IQ (highest in the world in fact). Currently, Korea's dominance is mostly due to the fact that progaming is a valid career there and nowhere else. But that doesn't explain Korean strength from 1999-2001.
Foreigners aren't as good as the top Koreans because they don't practice as much. If you suddenly dropped all the top foreigners in some proteam house, they aren't going to magically get any better if they don't start playing 5x the amount they are playing now. I don't know why you insistently claim that foreigners would be able to "outsmart and out-think" Korean players, when pretty much all the shit we do is copied directly from progamer VODs.
Okay; I admit my thread title is misleading based on the point I'm trying to make. I realize now that all I'm trying to say is that foreigners have the potential to stand up to the Koreans if they are given the chance to participate in the same competitive environment. It's not like foreigners aren't willing to get better and take on bigger challenges; it's that they CAN'T because of the way the system works right now in Korea. No one can debate that foreigners would be just as good as Koreans if they had access to the same competitive environment.
And for all the people railing on Idra:
First of all, he HAS beaten Koreans before (and not just Tossgirl; he's taken games off of better players, and even without cheesing / being gay). That's pretty good, considering he's only had a couple years' exposure to their environment when they've had, oh let's see, like THEIR WHOLE LIFE'S TIME.....heh. The fact that Idra can beat them, although not most of the time, is a testament to the fact that foreigners do stand a chance if they get the right environment.
Secondly: Idra himself has not even had a fair chance at the competitive environment that would be necessary to show foreigners' potential. Yeah, he's part of a pro team, but like I said before, he's only been there a couple years, compared to the 7 - 10 years of play (or more) that his teammates have had. It's amazing that he's beaten as many Koreans as he has. Even now he's only getting a PART of the full competitive experience because 1.) he probably doesn't practice with his entire team and 2.) he doesn't practice with the rest of the Koreans. So even though he's in Korea, Idra is not getting full competitive experience, although he's getting much more than we are, which is evident by his skill level.
Thirdly: Put 20 - 30 of the best foreigners in Korea and give them a REAL competitive environment, where they can play and practice against the best of the best. Idra, Ret, Nony...ship them all over there, take the Korean shields down and expose those foreigners to the best of the best, and they'll get better because they have the environment to do so.
Of course, we can blame KeSPA and all the other money-grubbing corporations involved for making things the way they are, with Koreans being locked into their own teams and threatened with humiliation / loss of their job if they don't adhere to all the regulations. If the whole thing wasn't so commercialized, maybe Koreans would be more willing to actually play games with foreigners and risk losing a game or two for the greater good of helping people get better and rise to their full potential.
On April 03 2010 10:55 koreasilver wrote: Except every premises of your argument is completely moot because Koreans are like the "foreigners" that you are deifying.
You are seriously ignorant if you think Koreans are like the way you think they are and foreigners aren't. People like you are the ones that probably don't even understand how much change there has been in every single matchup in the past two years and how sweeping some of these changes were, and how a lot of these changes came extremely suddenly by all sorts of players. You're basically trying to argue that Koreans don't think more than foreigners, which is ROFL wrong.
"Koreans only win because they have better mechanics". Sounds like the rantings of a noob.
Hoooo....silly me; I didn't see your name. Sorry if I got you upset with this "anti-Korean" talk (if you actually are Korean), but you're overreacting anyway - please calm yourself down; I'm not trying to rile you up.
You're still missing the basic premise of my point: if foreigners actually had the chance to practice against Koreans on a daily, constant basis, they would begin out-thinking, out-smarting, and beating them. The only reason this isn't happening right now is because they DON'T have the chance for that kind of competitive exposure. If Idra, Nony, other foreigners, etc. all had the competitive environment that the Koreans have, then yes, they would start beating Koreans, they would start finding the weaknesses of Korean play and exploiting them, just like the Koreans themselves do to each other.
Heh, I just realized - you're blindly glorifying Koreans. You make it sound like Koreans = inherently, genetically better. They're good because of their environment. If you allowed foreigners to become part of that environment, then they would start beating Koreans. They have the brain and they have the creativity, just as much and probably more because they aren't as "locked in" to practice schemes like the Koreans ARE.
Basically what I'm saying is that foreigners hold a bunch of pent-up potential that can be released if they're allowed to practice with the Koreans...and this doesn't mean being restrained and forced to play with B-teamers / sub-par Koreans...this means playing with the cream of the crop and being exposed to high-level play so you can actually be playing on the same level.
Or, you can think about it like this: if you have Bruce Lee on one hand, and an untrained fighter on the other hand, Bruce Lee will always destroy the other fighter. However, if you allow the untrained fighter to train with Bruce Lee, eventually he will get as good, if not better, than Bruce Lee, and he will be able to identify Lee's mistakes, capitalize on them, and start winning fights. The POTENTIAL is there...but you have to give it the CHANCE to manifest itself.
Foreigners are like the untrained fighter right now - they have the potential and the ability to beat, if not outright dominate, Korean players. However, they can't actually achieve that unless they're given the same competitive environment, the same "training" that the Koreans have. And then they will start winning and beating them. It's quite simple, really.
Koreans are basically robbing foreigners of their potential right now by denying them the chance to the same competitive environment - i.e. playing with high-level players. If foreigners have that environment like the Koreans do, then they will start winning. Koreans right now are "shielded" from foreigner competition (except in cases like the IESF, which, ironically, instead of being an example of Korean domination, was an example of top Koreans getting beaten by players who practice much less.....but maybe think more.....?). Once that shield goes down, rest assured, Korean losses will start to rack up. Pretty soon the playing field will be even.
Dude, you may outsmart korean once or twice, but mechanics will pretty much dominate over any cute play 99% of the time. If you don't have good enough mechanics, screw trying to do something tricky. Foreigners can't win because even if they try to do something cute, korean will always have better economy and bigger army.
And so what if top sc players lost once or twice to random foreigners? It happens. They aren't god. They're not supposed to win every game. You said that korean will start loosening up after they start losing? Well look at what happened in the WCG. Besides jaedong and stork dropping a game to a foreigner in a bo3, bisu, jaedong, stork completely crushed the foreigners. The only time I saw that a korean might of dropped out of the tournament was when stork played pj in the bo3, but pj is arguably the best foreigner in the world right now.
One or two losses means nothing. You can't win just by playing smarter. Mechanics takes a huge role in sc, so if you fall behind in mechanics, cute little strategies won't do enough, so no, foreigners will never beat koreans unless they train like they do.
And no, koreans aren't robbing foreigners of practice with top pros. The foreigners just suck. All koreans must make their way through the, can't remember the name but the tournament they play to get their proleague license (survivor tournament?), then they start off as a training partner with other nublets, and slowly make fame of themselves by making it into osl/msl and then practice with higher level progamers. If koreans can do it, why can't the foreigners? Its not like koreans who just became progamers can practice with the best players of their team instantly, they must work their way up to play with the better progamers. Foreigners aren't doing this cause they're generally less talented than koreans and could not work their way up like the koreans.
And honestly, your example with bruce lee sucks cause its all hypothetical, and I personally don't think anyone can beat up bruce lee. Bruce lee had insane reaction rate, a talent that is given to a very few people.
ret nony and draco did go to korea and oh look what happens. their not at korea anymore. what makes you did that foreigners have the determination or will to handle the practice environment when 3 foreigners didnt even last a year?
On April 03 2010 12:40 geegee1 wrote: ret nony and draco did go to korea and oh look what happens. their not at korea anymore. what makes you did that foreigners have the determination or will to handle the practice environment when 3 foreigners didnt even last a year?
Because those foreigners were robbed of a fair competitive experience - please don't pretend like being discriminated against and neglected by your own team is anything close to a beneficial competitive environment. When I say "good environment", I mean open, unhindered competition between EVERYONE, no questions asked, so everyone can benefit from the games and get better accordingly. This is not happening in Korea right now, even amongst the Koreans, because of the way that teams are set up; you can't just play whoever you want, you have to play strictly with your teammates. If you step out of line, you get punished by KeSPA, or ostracized by your teammates, or whatever...it's all about money and reputation when it should be about true, unadulterated competition. It can happen in chess, it can happen in Street Fighter, but for some reason it can't happen in StarCraft.
If i remember correctly in IeSF Terror, who isn't even a pro, EZ crushed every foreigner he played. Pj (who can be debated if hes even a foreigner or not) also EZ crushed every foreigner. Only korean to drop a game to a foreigner is Boxer (and Effort but Pj isn't really a foreigner). In WCG Starcraft, South Korea has won everyone of them. Koreans made their own environment to practice in, and thats how they got good.
Koreans are basically robbing foreigners of their potential right now by denying them the chance to the same competitive environment
Koreans let foreigners in, as long as they win a tournament (courage). Mind you those Koreans in the tournament don't have the luxury of playing with top lvl Koreans, they have to settle with iCCup. And they still beat foreigners.
On April 03 2010 12:40 geegee1 wrote: ret nony and draco did go to korea and oh look what happens. their not at korea anymore. what makes you did that foreigners have the determination or will to handle the practice environment when 3 foreigners didnt even last a year?
Because those foreigners were robbed of a fair competitive experience - please don't pretend like being discriminated against and neglected by your own team is anything close to a beneficial competitive environment. When I say "good environment", I mean open, unhindered competition between EVERYONE, no questions asked, so everyone can benefit from the games and get better accordingly. This is not happening in Korea right now, even amongst the Koreans, because of the way that teams are set up; you can't just play whoever you want, you have to play strictly with your teammates. If you step out of line, you get punished by KeSPA, or ostracized by your teammates, or whatever...it's all about money and reputation when it should be about true, unadulterated competition. It can happen in chess, it can happen in Street Fighter, but for some reason it can't happen in StarCraft.
Uh, I'm pretty sure progamers are allowed to play against people on other teams. After all, they do thank each other in their post-game interviews...
On April 03 2010 12:40 geegee1 wrote: ret nony and draco did go to korea and oh look what happens. their not at korea anymore. what makes you did that foreigners have the determination or will to handle the practice environment when 3 foreigners didnt even last a year?
Because those foreigners were robbed of a fair competitive experience - please don't pretend like being discriminated against and neglected by your own team is anything close to a beneficial competitive environment. When I say "good environment", I mean open, unhindered competition between EVERYONE, no questions asked, so everyone can benefit from the games and get better accordingly. This is not happening in Korea right now, even amongst the Koreans, because of the way that teams are set up; you can't just play whoever you want, you have to play strictly with your teammates. If you step out of line, you get punished by KeSPA, or ostracized by your teammates, or whatever...it's all about money and reputation when it should be about true, unadulterated competition. It can happen in chess, it can happen in Street Fighter, but for some reason it can't happen in StarCraft.
boo fucking hoo you think jaedong had a practice environment where every S-Class progamer was willing to practice with him when he was a nublet amateur? he practiced with other practice partners and b teamers, the same ppl idra has been practicing with the last 2 years, to get good, and once he got good practically raised Lecaf Oz from the shithole to a team that wins shit.
On April 03 2010 12:40 geegee1 wrote: ret nony and draco did go to korea and oh look what happens. their not at korea anymore. what makes you did that foreigners have the determination or will to handle the practice environment when 3 foreigners didnt even last a year?
Because those foreigners were robbed of a fair competitive experience - please don't pretend like being discriminated against and neglected by your own team is anything close to a beneficial competitive environment. When I say "good environment", I mean open, unhindered competition between EVERYONE, no questions asked, so everyone can benefit from the games and get better accordingly. This is not happening in Korea right now, even amongst the Koreans, because of the way that teams are set up; you can't just play whoever you want, you have to play strictly with your teammates. If you step out of line, you get punished by KeSPA, or ostracized by your teammates, or whatever...it's all about money and reputation when it should be about true, unadulterated competition. It can happen in chess, it can happen in Street Fighter, but for some reason it can't happen in StarCraft.
On April 03 2010 12:34 skypig wrote: Okay; I admit my thread title is misleading based on the point I'm trying to make. I realize now that all I'm trying to say is that foreigners have the potential to stand up to the Koreans if they are given the chance to participate in the same competitive environment. It's not like foreigners aren't willing to get better and take on bigger challenges; it's that they CAN'T because of the way the system works right now in Korea. No one can debate that foreigners would be just as good as Koreans if they had access to the same competitive environment.
And for all the people railing on Idra:
First of all, he HAS beaten Koreans before (and not just Tossgirl; he's taken games off of better players, and even without cheesing / being gay). That's pretty good, considering he's only had a couple years' exposure to their environment when they've had, oh let's see, like THEIR WHOLE LIFE'S TIME.....heh. The fact that Idra can beat them, although not most of the time, is a testament to the fact that foreigners do stand a chance if they get the right environment.
Secondly: Idra himself has not even had a fair chance at the competitive environment that would be necessary to show foreigners' potential. Yeah, he's part of a pro team, but like I said before, he's only been there a couple years, compared to the 7 - 10 years of play (or more) that his teammates have had. It's amazing that he's beaten as many Koreans as he has. Even now he's only getting a PART of the full competitive experience because 1.) he probably doesn't practice with his entire team and 2.) he doesn't practice with the rest of the Koreans. So even though he's in Korea, Idra is not getting full competitive experience, although he's getting much more than we are, which is evident by his skill level.
Thirdly: Put 20 - 30 of the best foreigners in Korea and give them a REAL competitive environment, where they can play and practice against the best of the best. Idra, Ret, Nony...ship them all over there, take the Korean shields down and expose those foreigners to the best of the best, and they'll get better because they have the environment to do so.
Of course, we can blame KeSPA and all the other money-grubbing corporations involved for making things the way they are, with Koreans being locked into their own teams and threatened with humiliation / loss of their job if they don't adhere to all the regulations. If the whole thing wasn't so commercialized, maybe Koreans would be more willing to actually play games with foreigners and risk losing a game or two for the greater good of helping people get better and rise to their full potential.
Lol this is hilarious... All your talking about is hypothetical situations WHAT IF A FORIEGNERS GOES TO A PROGAMING HOUSE.... Well they arnt and most of them cant.. Stop talking about "thoerys" because its just that theory. If jesus came down and played he might be the best but thats also just a theory. And as for koreans playing SC all their life... Flash is 18 right now... he wouldve been 11 7 years ago... Even he said it him self, he debuted on march 15 2007 and only practiced a year before. thats 2 years difference between idra and flash.. i dont think thats much of a difference do you? Stop talking about things you dont know about and also stop posting WHAT IF's
I don't understand why Skypig thinks foreigners are more intelligent than Koreans. There's no evidence to support your claim. Artosis and Incontrol kept talking about how foreigners will dominate SC2 because they are more intelligent/creative players a few months ago; but that doesn't seem to be the case now as even Artosis admits that the level of play in the Korean server is higher than US or EU.
On April 03 2010 10:25 koreasilver wrote: Foreigners haven't come up with anything new in Starcraft since like the super early days of the game. How the hell do you think Koreans win games against each other? They twist the assumptions of what has been standardized. The Koreans innovate the game all the time and the game seriously changes every couple of months gradually and sometimes even suddenly. This assumption that Koreans are all mindless drones is the most stupid and trite argument that foreigners bring up all the time. It's like the bad foreigner's attempt to make himself feel better.
Both Koreans and foreigners can "twist assumptions", as you say, to win games; no one's debating that point. MY point is that the best foreigners CAN think well enough and play well enough to exploit Korean mistakes and beat Koreans; the biggest obstacle to this happening is simply the fact that foreigners can't "mix" with Korean players right now. If you had Flash and Jaedong taking turns each week playing 10 games with the best foreigners in the world, you would see them lose games, and not just because of cheese or other "gay" things, but because of being out-thought by foreigner opponents. Foreigners have brains, too.
Actually, if you play 10 games against flash, you'll forget how to win and go into a slump
It's all about culture differences here. Asians are in general, more serious about gaming than foreigners. Add that to the fact Asians are generally more determined to mass game, it's no surprise they rape in gaming. Ask yourself if you are willing to say, practice 1 thing for 5 hours in a row.
As a side note, the foreign DOTA scene doesn't even compare to the Chinese and Malaysian teams.
On April 03 2010 10:25 koreasilver wrote: Foreigners haven't come up with anything new in Starcraft since like the super early days of the game. How the hell do you think Koreans win games against each other? They twist the assumptions of what has been standardized. The Koreans innovate the game all the time and the game seriously changes every couple of months gradually and sometimes even suddenly. This assumption that Koreans are all mindless drones is the most stupid and trite argument that foreigners bring up all the time. It's like the bad foreigner's attempt to make himself feel better.
Both Koreans and foreigners can "twist assumptions", as you say, to win games; no one's debating that point. MY point is that the best foreigners CAN think well enough and play well enough to exploit Korean mistakes and beat Koreans; the biggest obstacle to this happening is simply the fact that foreigners can't "mix" with Korean players right now. If you had Flash and Jaedong taking turns each week playing 10 games with the best foreigners in the world, you would see them lose games, and not just because of cheese or other "gay" things, but because of being out-thought by foreigner opponents. Foreigners have brains, too.
Actually, if you play 10 games against flash, you'll forget how to win and go into a slump
It's true. Violet went into a month-long slump because of Flash. DAMN U FLASH!!
There is no way that any foreigner could take down a top korean, let alone a proleague regular. The difference in reaction time is just too big. A foreigner could have the same mechanics as a korean, same apm, try to execute the perfect build order, but the korean would still win, simply because they know how to react in every situation. When doing something well is your livelihood, and you practice it every day for 10 hours, you will be better than someone who can only take 3-4 hours a day to practice. sure, you might be able to catch the korean by doing something tricky, but the fact is the progammer will have already seen that same strategy in practice at some point, and know how to react in the best possible way, without having to think.
If you doubt at all, head over to scforall and take a look at some of the best foreigners playing (and losing quite badly) to b team progamers. There is a definite difference in skill, simply from the fact that playing so much makes you able to react faster and better in every situation. the argument that allowing foreigners to play with koreans would show how much better they are or at least allow them to catch up doesn't fly either, as idra has proven over time.
On April 03 2010 10:25 koreasilver wrote: Foreigners haven't come up with anything new in Starcraft since like the super early days of the game. How the hell do you think Koreans win games against each other? They twist the assumptions of what has been standardized. The Koreans innovate the game all the time and the game seriously changes every couple of months gradually and sometimes even suddenly. This assumption that Koreans are all mindless drones is the most stupid and trite argument that foreigners bring up all the time. It's like the bad foreigner's attempt to make himself feel better.
Both Koreans and foreigners can "twist assumptions", as you say, to win games; no one's debating that point. MY point is that the best foreigners CAN think well enough and play well enough to exploit Korean mistakes and beat Koreans; the biggest obstacle to this happening is simply the fact that foreigners can't "mix" with Korean players right now. If you had Flash and Jaedong taking turns each week playing 10 games with the best foreigners in the world, you would see them lose games, and not just because of cheese or other "gay" things, but because of being out-thought by foreigner opponents. Foreigners have brains, too.
Actually, if you play 10 games against flash, you'll forget how to win and go into a slump
It's true. Violet went into a month-long slump because of Flash. DAMN U FLASH!!
So I haven't had time to read the whole thread, but I will add my thoughts for the heck of it.
To me the most reasonable assumption is that any given population (koreans vs. foreigners in this case) has the same potential in almost any sport, be it esport or soccer or football or whatever. What makes a population "good" is how much time/effort/money (money being the most important) goes into the sport. Korea dominates starcraft because a larger portion of their population plays SC and they play against better competition and there are larger monetary incentives and they are also, to an extent, exclusive since it is so hard for a foreigner to break into the cultural barrier. It really has nothing to do with "potential" or "ability" or anything like that.
On April 03 2010 12:40 geegee1 wrote: ret nony and draco did go to korea and oh look what happens. their not at korea anymore. what makes you did that foreigners have the determination or will to handle the practice environment when 3 foreigners didnt even last a year?
Because those foreigners were robbed of a fair competitive experience - please don't pretend like being discriminated against and neglected by your own team is anything close to a beneficial competitive environment. When I say "good environment", I mean open, unhindered competition between EVERYONE, no questions asked, so everyone can benefit from the games and get better accordingly. This is not happening in Korea right now, even amongst the Koreans, because of the way that teams are set up; you can't just play whoever you want, you have to play strictly with your teammates. If you step out of line, you get punished by KeSPA, or ostracized by your teammates, or whatever...it's all about money and reputation when it should be about true, unadulterated competition. It can happen in chess, it can happen in Street Fighter, but for some reason it can't happen in StarCraft.
Kinda stupid thinking jaedong, stork, flash, bisu all started playing against weaker players of their respective team as they worked their way to the top.
On April 03 2010 14:50 petered wrote: To me the most reasonable assumption is that any given population (koreans vs. foreigners in this case) has the same potential in almost any sport, be it esport or soccer or football or whatever. What makes a population "good" is how much time/effort/money (money being the most important) goes into the sport. Korea dominates starcraft because a larger portion of their population plays SC and they play against better competition and there are larger monetary incentives and they are also, to an extent, exclusive since it is so hard for a foreigner to break into the cultural barrier. It really has nothing to do with "potential" or "ability" or anything like that.
You bring up a good point - I guess I'm neglecting the fact that, regardless of natural talent/skill/ability/whatever, the Korean culture is just geared towards playing more StarCraft.
So maybe I'm wrong - maybe Koreans will always dominate no matter what....obviously I'm not completely certain that foreigners could own Koreans if they were exposed to the same environment, but I have a suspicion that they would if they had the opportunity. Whatever. I don't want to suck too many people into this; I was just trying to make the point that foreigners could bring legitimate competition to the Koreans if they had the same competitive environment. However, like you said, there's the culture issue; Koreans have MONEY to keep them going while foreigners really don't (their jobs don't depend on it...), and the Korean culture in general ensures that there's a higher dosage of StarCraft knowledge administered to everyone.
The mechanics of even a mediocre player in korea are at least twice as good as any foreigner. The fact that koreans dropped games to foreigners at IEF proves nothing, the reason that happens more often than you would expect is because the korean style of playing is really different than the way most foreigners play.
They are on an entirely different metagame on foreigners, and the way they play assumes a certain level of understanding of the metagame from the other player. Basically, the koreans assume their opponents will play better/more intelligently than they do, and what ends up happening is all the metagame stuff just ends up going way over their opponents head and as a result the foreigners can get lucky and win games doing "nooby" shit that just ends up working because its not what koreans ever play against.
The reason i know this is because top level foreigners who play a korean style sometimes have the same problem, just not as much because they're more used to playing in the foreigner metagame.
Of course not every win that foreigners get over koreans is pure luck but as much as i'd like them to be foreigners still just aren't very close to koreans in skill at this point.
Foreigners can take off games from Koreans, but in general they are not at the same level. And they won't be at the same level, either, in SC or SC 2, if the Koreans get really serious about it (and they tend to - because pro gaming is serious business in Korea).
The difference is in the training. The Korean pro scene is a true pro scene. They have training regimens. They have pro houses. They have legions of aspirants. It's the sort of thing you might see in professional sorts, which Korea also does exceptionally well in (for the same reason - they have intense training regimens, excellent recruitment programs, etc.).
But of course, many countries take professional sports seriously so the situation there is different and Korea doesn't dominate everything. In SC pro gaming though, not many countries take it that seriously, so Korea ends up taking everything.
Of course it's not because Koreans are intrinsically better at gaming. In WC 3, for example, it's a three-way split between Koreans, Chinese, and a few Europeans (ie Grubby), and top players are shoulder to shoulder with each other. In DOTA Korea doesn't have any presence; China, Malaysia, and Singapore dominates. In Counter Strike, European countries are the top competitors. But of course these games are not comparable to SC, which challenges players differently. Still, it illustrates how important a country's attitude is towards gaming for the development and success of its pro scene.
On April 03 2010 06:39 skypig wrote: This has been on my mind for some time now - I can't help but think that if the top foreigners were allowed to play "in the mix" with the Koreans, then foreigners would be beating Koreans on a fairly regular basis. The fact that Boxer, Effort, and Bisu all got beaten by non-Koreans at the IESF that happened a while back seems to support this.
I think Koreans definitely have a "technical" edge in StarCraft in that they practice the game much more than the foreigners do and thus have a physical advantage in playing the game; however the fact that they isolate themselves and practice strictly with other Koreans also opens them up to make stupid mistakes and assumptions because they're always playing the same crowd of people, making them more vulnerable to "non-Korean" strategies and situations.
I hope StarCraft II forces those Koreans to get their hands dirty and compete against EVERYONE in the StarCraft world, not just other Koreans...then we'll see if they're really the best. I'm kinda overstepping myself here, but what do the rest of you think? I still maintain that the best foreigners could match, and even surpass, the Koreans if they were allowed to compete against them regularly.
you must have written this to cause rage. Troll?
Well, I'll take the bait.
You know why Koreans only play against other Koreans? Take a guess. No, it's not because they're scared of foreigners. Maybe it has to do with the fact that they are the best in the entire world, and they can only improve if they play against other people of their EQUAL skill level. Duh? If foreigners WERE good enough, Koreans would obviously "get their hands dirty" and play against them, but that's obviously not the case.
Moreover, as people have said before, the BEST foreigner in the world is in Korea right now, competing very freaking regularly. What were you thinking when you wrote this?!
If trolling, please stop. If you're serious, please think before writing anything.
On April 03 2010 15:41 Azarkon wrote: As for Idra's performance against Korean pros - I don't really want to psycho-analyze the guy but it's probably one or more of three explanations:
1. He was a stranger in a strange land, didn't know the language, had trouble adjusting, etc.
2. He didn't practice as long and/or as hard as the Koreans did, for whatever reason.
3. He simply lacks the talent.
You decide which it is.
How about being an asshole to his fellow teammates causing them to hate himself. I hope idra didn't do this.
On April 03 2010 12:18 jalstar wrote: Koreans have dominated SC for nearly its entire history, so you can't attribute Korea's success solely to a better progaming scene. Part of it is culture, which leads to more practice hours and more standard builds, and part of it is a higher average IQ (highest in the world in fact). Currently, Korea's dominance is mostly due to the fact that progaming is a valid career there and nowhere else. But that doesn't explain Korean strength from 1999-2001.
What does IQ have to do with it? Jews have a much higher average IQ than Koreans. I don't see them dominating SC. Hong Kong and Singaporean Chinese also have a higher IQ than Koreans. I don't see them dominating SC, either. And I doubt the IQ of players like Jaedong, Flash, etc. are extraordinary. SC is not an IQ game.
If the foreigner scene gets big time sponsors involved, then the foreigners will catch up very fast. Competitive gaming will follow the money. In BW, at least 99% of the money(made that figure up but it is probably close) flowed through the korean tournaments and leagues. Those leagues are extremely hard to enter in for foreigners. That right there is an easy formula for Korean domination.
Even though there is no way to test it and hence a moot bet. I would put money on Ret, Nony, Idra, and plenty of other foreigners having the same potential as top Korean gamers.
Since I am already commenting I will throw this out there as well, what makes for a really good gamer? My hypothesis is that the number one factor in making a great gamer is dedication/competitiveness, and it's not even close. Most of us have the potential for 300+ APM. Many of us have the brain to understand the game. Not many people have the will to practice for 12 hours a day. That is truly exceptional.
That is why I laugh when people say that Idra isn't really the best foreigner because he practices more than any other foreigner and against better competition, so it "doesn't really count." Well, it is his dedication and competitiveness that has driven him to practice that much, why does that not count as a quality that makes him a great gamer?
I watched Nony's stream for a while when he was training for the TSL. I swear he is a machine. He gave himself like, three minutes of downtime between games before he was in another one. I get tired and stop playing after about 4 or 5 games because I don't care enough/ want it enough to push myself, and I simply can't keep focusing that hard. These guys do and I have all the respect in the world for that.
On April 03 2010 15:54 petered wrote: If the foreigner scene gets big time sponsors involved, then the foreigners will catch up very fast. Competitive gaming will follow the money. In BW, at least 99% of the money(made that figure up but it is probably close) flowed through the korean tournaments and leagues. Those leagues are extremely hard to enter in for foreigners. That right there is an easy formula for Korean domination.
Even if the foreigner scene gets big time sponsors, i doubt it'll have the effect and response it had on SK. Starcraft pretty much moved an entire nation, Progamers are like celebrities. Its more of a cultural difference, I don't think americans/foreigners will openly accept progaming...
(...Then again they accept nascar/drag racing so who knows.)
On April 03 2010 12:18 jalstar wrote: Koreans have dominated SC for nearly its entire history, so you can't attribute Korea's success solely to a better progaming scene. Part of it is culture, which leads to more practice hours and more standard builds, and part of it is a higher average IQ (highest in the world in fact). Currently, Korea's dominance is mostly due to the fact that progaming is a valid career there and nowhere else. But that doesn't explain Korean strength from 1999-2001.
What does IQ have to do with it? Jews have a much higher average IQ than Koreans. I don't see them dominating SC. Hong Kong and Singaporean Chinese also have a higher IQ than Koreans. I don't see them dominating SC, either. And I doubt the IQ of players like Jaedong, Flash, etc. are extraordinary. SC is not an IQ game.
dude each race only gets ot be good at one thing or else they'd be imba koreans obviously chose starcraft jews picked.. erm.. violin americans picked basketball
On April 03 2010 12:18 jalstar wrote: Koreans have dominated SC for nearly its entire history, so you can't attribute Korea's success solely to a better progaming scene. Part of it is culture, which leads to more practice hours and more standard builds, and part of it is a higher average IQ (highest in the world in fact). Currently, Korea's dominance is mostly due to the fact that progaming is a valid career there and nowhere else. But that doesn't explain Korean strength from 1999-2001.
What does IQ have to do with it? Jews have a much higher average IQ than Koreans. I don't see them dominating SC. Hong Kong and Singaporean Chinese also have a higher IQ than Koreans. I don't see them dominating SC, either. And I doubt the IQ of players like Jaedong, Flash, etc. are extraordinary. SC is not an IQ game.
dude each race only gets ot be good at one thing or else they'd be imba koreans obviously chose starcraft jews picked.. erm.. violin americans picked basketball
This is my opinion on this discussion: Of course koreans will dominate the sc2 scene as well because of the better practice conditions and the effort korans put into something if they want to be good at it. But they have one problem which is the advantage of foreigners: the lack of creativity Koreans are like robots. They choose a build order, maybe modifiy it a little bit but then practice this build over and over for an infinite amount of games. Their mechanics will improve dramatically and they are very hard to beat if you play standard builds because they are used to them. But few of the koreans are really innovative. I mean there are more then 200 progamers and x amateurs who have been practicing their ass off for many years and did not invent anything new. There are only a few exceptions who made the difference. It took the koreans so many years to discover that FE is actually a great build. It took so many years to discover that mech upgrades work kinda well against protoss. And you could find a lot more examples of course. A few geniuses like Oov/Bisu/Flash etc. were needed to invent new strategies. All the other robots would have never discovered these new strategies because they would not even think about it and just continue playing the same builds over and over. Then some day they see a new build on tv, think it is actually great and the same story begins. Back in the days boxer for example had HUGE problems against foreigners because they just played in another way. He won 2 WCGs but we should not forget how lucky he was (losing to bulagarian players etc.). Of course he had way better micro and mechanics then but foreigners just played differently. Until most strategies are developped and mechanics begin to play a more dominant role foreigners will be able to compete with the koreans and counter standard build orders used in an SC2 proleague match better than korean amateur spectators.
On April 03 2010 12:18 jalstar wrote: Koreans have dominated SC for nearly its entire history, so you can't attribute Korea's success solely to a better progaming scene. Part of it is culture, which leads to more practice hours and more standard builds, and part of it is a higher average IQ (highest in the world in fact). Currently, Korea's dominance is mostly due to the fact that progaming is a valid career there and nowhere else. But that doesn't explain Korean strength from 1999-2001.
What does IQ have to do with it? Jews have a much higher average IQ than Koreans. I don't see them dominating SC. Hong Kong and Singaporean Chinese also have a higher IQ than Koreans. I don't see them dominating SC, either. And I doubt the IQ of players like Jaedong, Flash, etc. are extraordinary. SC is not an IQ game.
dude each race only gets ot be good at one thing or else they'd be imba koreans obviously chose starcraft jews picked.. erm.. violin americans picked basketball
On April 03 2010 12:18 jalstar wrote: Koreans have dominated SC for nearly its entire history, so you can't attribute Korea's success solely to a better progaming scene. Part of it is culture, which leads to more practice hours and more standard builds, and part of it is a higher average IQ (highest in the world in fact). Currently, Korea's dominance is mostly due to the fact that progaming is a valid career there and nowhere else. But that doesn't explain Korean strength from 1999-2001.
What does IQ have to do with it? Jews have a much higher average IQ than Koreans. I don't see them dominating SC. Hong Kong and Singaporean Chinese also have a higher IQ than Koreans. I don't see them dominating SC, either. And I doubt the IQ of players like Jaedong, Flash, etc. are extraordinary. SC is not an IQ game.
dude each race only gets ot be good at one thing or else they'd be imba koreans obviously chose starcraft jews picked.. erm.. violin americans picked basketball
Tell ya what you throw somebody with not much experience in who is D- against say a C- or even D+ level player and watch how the games go even when the inexperienced player attempts cheese then come back to this thread and rethink your statements the more experienced player will win the majority of the time
Well, I'm really surprised that this thread has stayed to a certain extent civil rofl. The difference here is division of resource. You are making the argument similar to saying if America and Canada have war games, Canada's military would improve and start beat the U.S., while U.S. spend billions upon billions into the military infrastructure, and Canada doesn't.
Somehow the argument was steered towards whether foreigners are ABLE to beat koreans THEORETICALLY. Well duh, anything and everything happens in imaginationland. But people are simply unwilling to devote such resources towards this game. The gap over the years have developed to both time-spent, infrastructure, and understanding. Has foreigners made builds for BW for the last what... 5 years? no. we copied, like in math class. The simple idea that MIXING will fill this enormous gap is simply the ignorance of the OP at the current BW situation.
You do realize that koreans are professionals? Starcraft is their job. They spend way more time practicing than any foreigner could ever afford to. As of now koreans are much better than any foreigner and if this changes in sc2 than it would mean that the game is far simplier than bw (which I do not believe).
On April 03 2010 20:34 lazz wrote: there's no difference between koreans and foreigners. there's only a difference between people who practice more than others.
And the fact that the Korean culture makes a perfect environment for producing the best SC players in the world. The dong-saengs must respect the hyungs and help them practice whenever they want for no reward. Any person coming from a Western country would tell the hyung to go fuck himself.
On April 03 2010 20:34 lazz wrote: there's no difference between koreans and foreigners. there's only a difference between people who practice more than others.
And the fact that the Korean culture makes a perfect environment for producing the best SC players in the world. The dong-saengs must respect the hyungs and help them practice whenever they want for no reward. Any person coming from a Western country would tell the hyung to go fuck himself.
Foreigners are free to play against Koreans, although there is a time difference. So why aren't their superior strategies winning? If foreigners can't beat Korean amateurs, what makes you think they can they beat Korean pros? Sure, a few of the top accounts might belong to pro teams, but then you click page 2... and page 3... etc. etc.
you do realize that the koreans just dick around at foreigner events yea? no one is fucking losing sleep for that shit.
the difference is that these players play it as their "job". they get paid for this shit. if you suck then you can go home.
so no, foreigners that just practice now and then in their spare time while still having a life is not gonna cut it at all vs the koreans. it's just a totally different league.
On April 03 2010 21:29 pyrogenetix wrote: you do realize that the koreans just dick around at foreigner events yea? no one is fucking losing sleep for that shit.
the difference is that these players play it as their "job". they get paid for this shit. if you suck then you can go home.
so no, foreigners that just practice now and then in their spare time while still having a life is not gonna cut it at all vs the koreans. it's just a totally different league.
its not that they dick around, they dont prepare and the playing conditions are usually less than ideal but once theyre in the game its not like haha this guys white i dont care if i lose. but they drop games because foreigners are strategically worse. not better. you never have perfect scouting, in some matchups its near impossible to scout beyond a certain point early game. this means that alot of your strategic decisions are based on intuition, reading incomplete information, that kind of thing. but foreigners dont play optimally, most of them dont even play intelligently. that makes them absolutely harder to read, but even more so for players who are used to playing amongst professionals. game sense gets calibrated in a way, and playing foreigners throws that off.
that and the fact that foreigners have nothing to lose so theyre entirely willing to do ridiculous allins, which boil the game down to scouting or guessing and will work no matter the skill differential if they manage to catch them off guard.
There are many insanely talented koreans. Its not just that they practice a lot. They also have real passion for the game, sure some do force themselves but some do not and still play a shitload, without getting bored or tired. Its passion that makes them the best in my opinion.
Foreigners are free to play against Koreans, although there is a time difference. So why aren't their superior strategies winning? If foreigners can't beat Korean amateurs, what makes you think they can they beat Korean pros? Sure, a few of the top accounts might belong to pro teams, but then you click page 2... and page 3... etc. etc.
because in sc1, being the better player mechanically will make you beat almost any strategy from a mechanically worse player. Most of these high-ranked amateur koreans only have a tiny number of builds that they execute perfectly in every matchup, and those standard strategies are (after 12 years) so good, that there are close to no ways to effectively counter them. In certain matchups (pvt for example) you can abuse certain safe plays by playing so greedy that his mechanical edge will not be enough for him to beat you if are a decent player, but this is an exception. up to maybe 8 years ago, beating koreans by being outsmarting them was much much easier. If you ask any player that was on top of the foreign scene back in 2000-2002, they will confirm that they managed to beat korean progamers on a regular basis. It's hard to predict how long foreigners will be able to keep up in sc2 because of too many unknown factors, I expect some foreigners to do very well against the koreans early on, just like in sc1 people like grrr, elky, Slayer etc. were able to play among the top simply because they were talented. but assuming that talent/raw skill/cleverness + practice/dedication = overall skill, then even if a foreigner has more raw skill he will eventually be behind in overall skill because of the korean (gaming) culture unless they practice similarly hard. (although this is a flawed, as everyone has a peak of overall skill at which he will not improve anymore, although I think that if you are smart and talented enough this will not matter because those people will quit before reaching their peak) Also, of course, if 0.01% of the players are talented enough to become the best player in the world, chances are that this person will be a korean simply because of the amount of people playing there. Obviously chances of Flash being the best player in the world right now if everyone in the world had played starcraft for as long as he are has basically zero.
edit: to further explain Idra's point, think of poker. Pros know how to play against other pros because the can assume their range of hands, assume them to make the correct decisions etc., but if you are playing against someone that plays irrationally, it becomes infinitely harder to play your best. In the long run, they will crush the newbs, just as in starcraft a pro would beat someone worse in 99 out of 100 games, but it's easy to lose short-term. Everyone that played poker with friends and had someone at their table with zero experience will know this. If he goes all-in, you will not know what to do because he could have the nuts or completey air.
That's the thing. The guy's argument is that given the opportunity to practice with Korean pros, top foreigners would eventually be able to compete on equal footing because they think outside the box. It's a theoretical argument, so maybe foreigners just lack the practice opportunities needed in order to match Korean pros.
...Except Korean amateurs dominate ICCup. If foreigners can't beat amateurs with their innovative strategies, I see no reason why they'd be able to beat professionals. They're going to need much more than just "open competition."
SC2... still too early to say. I'd put my money on Korea being dominant given its history with SC1, but I wouldn't count out other Asian countries either (especially China). Somehow I don't see a US or European country taking enough interest to develop a professional scene, which you need if you're going to compete long-term.
On April 03 2010 06:39 skypig wrote: This has been on my mind for some time now - I can't help but think that if the top foreigners were allowed to play "in the mix" with the Koreans, then foreigners would be beating Koreans on a fairly regular basis. The fact that Boxer, Effort, and Bisu all got beaten by non-Koreans at the IESF that happened a while back seems to support this.
You should understand that korean progamers don't practice nonstop for IESF... it's more of a casual thing for them. They have more important things to practice for. Look at Idra - he's regarded as one of the best, but he can't even make it onto A-team (no offense to him, it just demonstrates the gap).
are you people from the fucking 50s? race does not affect sc2 skill. It's the environment surrounding the individual and his culture that creates a higher probability to be better. And koreans have that in BW
On April 03 2010 12:18 jalstar wrote: Koreans have dominated SC for nearly its entire history, so you can't attribute Korea's success solely to a better progaming scene. Part of it is culture, which leads to more practice hours and more standard builds, and part of it is a higher average IQ (highest in the world in fact). Currently, Korea's dominance is mostly due to the fact that progaming is a valid career there and nowhere else. But that doesn't explain Korean strength from 1999-2001.
What does IQ have to do with it? Jews have a much higher average IQ than Koreans. I don't see them dominating SC. Hong Kong and Singaporean Chinese also have a higher IQ than Koreans. I don't see them dominating SC, either. And I doubt the IQ of players like Jaedong, Flash, etc. are extraordinary. SC is not an IQ game.
dude each race only gets ot be good at one thing or else they'd be imba koreans obviously chose starcraft jews picked.. erm.. violin americans picked basketball
wooo racial balance
Canada will choose hockey.
reroll imo
Terrible. Some people still believe those tests are an accurate measure of intelligence. And comparing nations... wow, just wow. I can't believe anyone would seriously suggest one "people" are smarter than another.
On April 03 2010 15:58 lazz wrote: this thread is so racist lol
So true.
edit: It seems like the very best and very worst threads get the most attention on tl. This is not the former -_-
On April 03 2010 06:39 skypig wrote: This has been on my mind for some time now - I can't help but think that if the top foreigners were allowed to play "in the mix" with the Koreans, then foreigners would be beating Koreans on a fairly regular basis. The fact that Boxer, Effort, and Bisu all got beaten by non-Koreans at the IESF that happened a while back seems to support this.
I think Koreans definitely have a "technical" edge in StarCraft in that they practice the game much more than the foreigners do and thus have a physical advantage in playing the game; however the fact that they isolate themselves and practice strictly with other Koreans also opens them up to make stupid mistakes and assumptions because they're always playing the same crowd of people, making them more vulnerable to "non-Korean" strategies and situations.
I hope StarCraft II forces those Koreans to get their hands dirty and compete against EVERYONE in the StarCraft world, not just other Koreans...then we'll see if they're really the best. I'm kinda overstepping myself here, but what do the rest of you think? I still maintain that the best foreigners could match, and even surpass, the Koreans if they were allowed to compete against them regularly.
Lol... Not even gonna type a response to this because I don't even know where to start.
OP There's someone inherently flawed in your argument...
You're asserting that the foreigners would be able to beat the Koreans with non-Korean-esque strategies, yet in the paragraph before you argued that if they're practicing "in-the-mix" with Koreans then they'll beat the Koreans on a regular basis...
Case 1: The Koreans are "mixing" with the foreigners, then your first assertion would be nullified. Case 2: The Koreans are not "mixing" with the foreigners, then the condition for your second argument doesn't even exist.
-- Edit: Wow...after skimming through the thread...it's pretty apparent that this is much trolled thread... I shall participate no further.
On April 03 2010 06:39 skypig wrote: This has been on my mind for some time now - I can't help but think that if the top foreigners were allowed to play "in the mix" with the Koreans, then foreigners would be beating Koreans on a fairly regular basis. The fact that Boxer, Effort, and Bisu all got beaten by non-Koreans at the IESF that happened a while back seems to support this.
I think Koreans definitely have a "technical" edge in StarCraft in that they practice the game much more than the foreigners do and thus have a physical advantage in playing the game; however the fact that they isolate themselves and practice strictly with other Koreans also opens them up to make stupid mistakes and assumptions because they're always playing the same crowd of people, making them more vulnerable to "non-Korean" strategies and situations.
I hope StarCraft II forces those Koreans to get their hands dirty and compete against EVERYONE in the StarCraft world, not just other Koreans...then we'll see if they're really the best. I'm kinda overstepping myself here, but what do the rest of you think? I still maintain that the best foreigners could match, and even surpass, the Koreans if they were allowed to compete against them regularly.
Lol... Not even gonna type a response to this because I don't even know where to start.
That sucks seeing as 6 pages before you knew exactly where to start.
Had you said, that given the same conditions, equal practicing environments and practicing hours, foreigners could be up there at the same level as Koreans could've made a somewhat reasonable argument. But you just think that given the same conditions, foreigners will beat Koreans because they are overall less talented/intelligent, which makes your statements not just ignorant but racist.
You don't even factor things like culture, where in SK being a progamers is not a stigma, while in the West you are a payed nerd at best. Second, there is this little thing called work ethics, which are insane in SK, and one of the big reasons why a country that was at the bottom of the 3rd world countries ranking 40 years ago now is one of the most technologically advanced countries. When they get into something, they go at it like crazy, no sleep, no eating, nothing, just focused on their goal. And there are lot of people out there in the West who also look like they have OCD, but this insane work ethic in SK extends to a much bigger portion of the population.
On April 04 2010 01:50 RamenStyle wrote: Had you said, that given the same conditions, equal practicing environments and practicing hours, foreigners could be up there at the same level as Koreans could've made a somewhat reasonable argument. But you just think that given the same conditions, foreigners will beat Koreans because they are overall less talented/intelligent, which makes your statements not just ignorant but racist.
You don't even factor things like culture, where in SK being a progamers is not a stigma, while in the West you are a payed nerd at best. Second, there is this little thing called work ethics, which are insane in SK, and one of the big reasons why a country that was at the bottom of the 3rd world countries ranking 40 years ago now is one of the most technologically advanced countries. When they get into something, they go at it like crazy, no sleep, no eating, nothing, just focused on their goal. And there are lot of people out there in the West who also look like they have OCD, but this insane work ethic in SK extends to a much bigger portion of the population.
I don't know why people keep accusing me of racism - all I said was that I think foreigners would be able to "out-think" Koreans because they're not locked into the same rigorous system of drilling build orders and memorizing "winning" strategies. I am not trying to be racist, and I apologize to all those who think I am.
I will definitely admit that Koreans are still the best because of their CULTURAL EDGE: they play more StarCraft, talk more StarCraft, and think more StarCraft than the rest of the world. I will not say that their IQ is higher; I will not say that their IQ is lower. To be honest, I don't CARE about their IQ; I care about good solid competitive environments that currently don't exist for foreigners because they're not exposed to the same level of play.
And don't say "well Koreans dominate ICCup, so foreigners aren't good" because that's just an example of Koreans playing a couple games against inferior players, winning, and then never coming into contact with them again. That's not a competitive environment; that's an environment that makes it brutally hard for the less-skilled players to get better because they're always crushed by an established superior majority of players.
This is like expecting a group of white belts to knock out a bunch of black belts in a few matches - it's not going to happen. However, if you let the white belts actually LEARN and TRAIN with the black belts, then they will get better and start winning.
My argument is really not that complicated and I'm not sure why it's so objectionable to some people. I realize that most of this is wishful thinking because first of all, MONEY is the big issue here and it would not be profitable for Korean companies and Korean gamers to actively train with foreigners. The result is that you have an exclusive pool of elite players who don't really give the foreigners a chance to match them, which is not a good competitive environment. Secondly, as we've all heard, Koreans themselves tend to be xenophobic towards foreigners that do manage to break the anti-foreigner shield, which makes it harder yet to benefit from actually being in Korea. Ironic that so many people accuse me of racism...based on what I've seen, heard, and read on this site, it's the Koreans that are being racist, not the foreigners.
Again, I'm not bashing Koreans, I'm trying to lay out the facts of why foreigners right now are not able to reach their full potential, and by "potential" I mean hone their playing ability to the same level as the best in the field (currently, Koreans). I'm not trying to be racist, and perhaps I shouldn't have made the title of this thread to be foreigner-favored, although I still think that foreigners would have a lot of good stuff to bring to the table if their mechanics and technical play were allowed to reach "Korean" level.
Here, let me put it simply. Let's assume that Korean pro-gamers are all robots who care little about innovation and all play standard build orders and work on mechanics (Not true, but bear with me). What amazing strategies would foreigners offer that Korean amateurs wouldn't also be thinking of? If you're implying that foreigners are more creative than Koreans who don't play the game for a living, then that's obviously racist. If you're not, then what do foreigners have to offer that Korean amateurs do not?
Also, do you simply not know what iccup is? There were many complaints about people dodging Koreans during TSL2, it's not like the top foreigners don't have opportunities to play Korean players. The less-skilled players get crushed by an established group of better players? Well what the hell do you think is going to happen when they're going up against professionals instead of amateurs? It's like you're arguing that C- players should be able to compete with A players because they're more likely to innovate. Sure, they might be able to cheese a win here or there, but you don't go from C- to A without first going through the ranks inbetween.
*sigh* The only way to solve this topic, which seems to come up every so often, is with some good international tournaments once SC 2 is released. Depending on how KESPA deals with Blizzard Koreans may or may not have the same level of sponsorship they did with SC, but either way it'll be interesting to see whether foreigners really do have what it takes to compete with the Koreans on a pro-gaming level.
On April 03 2010 06:56 LunarDestiny wrote: Even our best foreign harry potter idra can't even win a game in the offline preliminaries...
Truth.
This. And ret, one of the best foreign zerg got steamrolled three time in a row against people who suck compare to B teamer, who themeselves suck against A-teamer, who themselves often suck compare to the few people we regularly see in starleagues.
There is like four abismal skill gap between a top foreigner and a top professional. The fact that some dude manages with huge preparation to take the game of his life against a half drunk Bisu who isn't even looking at the screen because he doesn't give a damn doesn't mean anything at all.
On April 04 2010 03:47 Dracid wrote: Here, let me put it simply. Let's assume that Korean pro-gamers are all robots who care little about innovation and all play standard build orders and work on mechanics (Not true, but bear with me). What amazing strategies would foreigners offer that Korean amateurs wouldn't also be thinking of? If you're implying that foreigners are more creative than Koreans who don't play the game for a living, then that's obviously racist. If you're not, then what do foreigners have to offer that Korean amateurs do not?
Look, Koreans are obviously the best, right now. Because they have access to a complete, high-level competitive environment with the masters of the game. I'm not debating that.
However, keep in mind that playing the game for a JOB (literally) means that you have some restrictions...you are much less likely to try new and risky things because it means your job is at stake if you fail, not to mention you let your team down, suffer humiliation, etc. This is where foreigners have a potential advantage - they're not "locked in" to the commercialized, money-driven trashload of restrictions that KeSPA and all the other StarCraft corporations put in. If foreigners could have the same competitive environment that Koreans do, in order to get their mechanics, game sense, and technical skill up to par, then they would be free to push the limits of creativity and try new and crazy things. I'm not saying Koreans are less creative; I'm saying they're RESTRICTED by the very things that you mentioned - money, their job, etc. is all at stake if they try to be "too creative." Foreigners are not restricted in that way. Therefore, foreigners + no restrictions = more creative play with the potential for winning. Of course, this also applies to Koreans....so you could just as easily say Koreans + no restrictions = more creative play, etc. Except in this case, Koreans are pretty much stuck in the system while foreigners aren't, necessarily. Although maybe foreigners would have to become part of the system in order to experience that competitive environment, although I'm sure there's ways around that, as SC2 may show. Is that so hard to understand?
On April 04 2010 03:47 Dracid wrote: Also, do you simply not know what iccup is? There were many complaints about people dodging Koreans during TSL2, it's not like the top foreigners don't have opportunities to play Korean players. The less-skilled players get crushed by an established group of better players? Well what the hell do you think is going to happen when they're going up against professionals instead of amateurs? It's like you're arguing that C- players should be able to compete with A players because they're more likely to innovate. Sure, they might be able to cheese a win here or there, but you don't go from C- to A without first going through the ranks inbetween.
Sure I know what ICCup is; I play on it. Again, you have no point - people dodging Koreans is like white belts dodging black belts because they know the black belts know more, fight more, and have more experience. If the white belts HAD THE CHANCE to actually train and get better vs. the black belts, then they would improve and eventually fight "on par" with the black belts. Bad example on your part....ICCup is just another example of the consequences of a bad competitive environment; you get a majority of elite players that effectively prevent anyone who's trying to get better from getting much-needed practice.
Re-read my first paragraph. I'm not talking about professionals, I'm talking about what advantages foreigners have over Korean amateurs.
As for iccup. How do they not have a chance? White belts don't get better by sparring with black belts. They get better by sparring with people near their own level, and work their way up to being black belts.
On April 04 2010 04:15 skypig wrote: However, keep in mind that playing the game for a JOB (literally) means that you have some restrictions...you are much less likely to try new and risky things because it means your job is at stake if you fail, not to mention you let your team down, suffer humiliation, etc. This is where foreigners have a potential advantage - they're not "locked in" to the commercialized, money-driven trashload of restrictions that KeSPA and all the other StarCraft corporations put in. If foreigners could have the same competitive environment that Koreans do, in order to get their mechanics, game sense, and technical skill up to par, then they would be free to push the limits of creativity and try new and crazy things. I'm not saying Koreans are less creative; I'm saying they're RESTRICTED by the very things that you mentioned - money, their job, etc. is all at stake if they try to be "too creative." Foreigners are not restricted in that way. Therefore, foreigners + no restrictions = more creative play with the potential for winning. Of course, this also applies to Koreans....so you could just as easily say Koreans + no restrictions = more creative play, etc. Except in this case, Koreans are pretty much stuck in the system while foreigners aren't, necessarily. Although maybe foreigners would have to become part of the system in order to experience that competitive environment, although I'm sure there's ways around that, as SC2 may show. Is that so hard to understand?
This is stupid, their job is to win. Some players are known as strategists, who go for risky and innovative plays (Kal and Horang2), while others are known to play standard whose refinements escape people like you. Hell, almost all, if not all, innovative and new builds come from Korea, not from the foreigners. Koreans are always trying new and risky things, as subtle or pronounced as they may be.
Of course people B is more smarter than people A! Let's treat this statistically. There are 10000 people A, and 100000000000 people B. There are bound to be few B that is smarter than people A. Perfect compromise. Happy times for all.
On April 04 2010 05:05 haster27 wrote: Of course people B is more smarter than people A! Let's treat this statistically. There are 10000 people A, and 100000000000 people B. There are bound to be few B that is smarter than people A. Perfect compromise. Happy times for all.
Except there are probably more people playing starcraft a bit seriously in Korea than outside Korea. You can't use statistic in such a silly way.
Koreans are not smarter or dumber than foreigners. They just play at a higer level, which means that it's more difficult to do stupid things like cutting scvs randomely or going for silly builds. You think someone like Flash plays robotic because all of us except maybe IdrA don't understand a quarter of what is happening, as very little details play a huuuuge role in a S class game.
I remember Flash saying that he got surprised because when he pushed against BeSt, his opponent had 4 templar instead of 3 as he expected and that he lost the game because of that. It was like 9 minutes into the game. Starcraft is incredibly subtle, but we only see stupid or flashy things because we suck too much to realize what is really going on most of the time.
Foreigners without exception are terribad compared to any half decent A teamer.
On April 04 2010 05:24 haster27 wrote: But I thought we were speaking about hypotheticals?
If you want to make statistic, you can, but about a pertinent population. You can't say "there are 30 millions Koreans and 6 billions foreigners so..." because we are talking only about people playing startcraft at high level which make your reasonement completely absurd.
listen the problem is foreigners cant even deal with korean environment. and foreigners creative side would last for what? 1 day and thats it ? they get bash every day for 12 hours?
This thread is so fucking stupid it hurts. Look at your op, think it through, and realize that the op is completely pointless in aspect imaginable. End thread please.
On April 04 2010 04:24 Dracid wrote: Re-read my first paragraph. I'm not talking about professionals, I'm talking about what advantages foreigners have over Korean amateurs.
As for iccup. How do they not have a chance? White belts don't get better by sparring with black belts. They get better by sparring with people near their own level, and work their way up to being black belts.
Yeah but even Korean amateurs are "black belts" (or less than black belt but still better than white belt...) because they have a culture that reinforces StarCraft, not to mention they're still playing with better players than foreigners are, and on a more consistent basis. In other words they still have the competitive environment that foreigners lack, thus of course they will continue to do better on ICCup.
And yes, white belts get better by sparring with people near their own level...unfortunately there IS no "near level" for foreigners to practice against in order to get better because ALL of the "next levels" of play exist in the exclusive Korean competitive environment, from the worst to the best. And foreigners still don't have access to those "higher levels" of competition.
And, as I've been saying before, IF THEY DID have access, then they would get better.
I guess what I've been trying to say this whole time is that there should be UNRESTRICTED competition between everyone in StarCraft, and everyone should be able to consistently play with players that are at or above their level. I think by now it's too late because even Korean amateurs probably don't want to mess around helping foreigners get better and improve their play (for multiple reasons). Oh well.
Again I admit my title is misleading...perhaps it should be changed to:
Foreigners can study pros, pros don't study foreigners. If pros actually practiced specifically for a foreigners style you will get absolute rape. Foreigners play styles that pros pretty much never play against.
On April 03 2010 20:34 lazz wrote: there's no difference between koreans and foreigners. there's only a difference between people who practice more than others.
And the fact that the Korean culture makes a perfect environment for producing the best SC players in the world. The dong-saengs must respect the hyungs and help them practice whenever they want for no reward. Any person coming from a Western country would tell the hyung to go fuck himself.
On April 04 2010 04:24 Dracid wrote: Re-read my first paragraph. I'm not talking about professionals, I'm talking about what advantages foreigners have over Korean amateurs.
As for iccup. How do they not have a chance? White belts don't get better by sparring with black belts. They get better by sparring with people near their own level, and work their way up to being black belts.
Yeah but even Korean amateurs are "black belts" (or less than black belt but still better than white belt...) because they have a culture that reinforces StarCraft, not to mention they're still playing with better players than foreigners are, and on a more consistent basis. In other words they still have the competitive environment that foreigners lack, thus of course they will continue to do better on ICCup.
And yes, white belts get better by sparring with people near their own level...unfortunately there IS no "near level" for foreigners to practice against in order to get better because ALL of the "next levels" of play exist in the exclusive Korean competitive environment, from the worst to the best. And foreigners still don't have access to those "higher levels" of competition.
And, as I've been saying before, IF THEY DID have access, then they would get better.
I guess what I've been trying to say this whole time is that there should be UNRESTRICTED competition between everyone in StarCraft, and everyone should be able to consistently play with players that are at or above their level. I think by now it's too late because even Korean amateurs probably don't want to mess around helping foreigners get better and improve their play (for multiple reasons). Oh well.
Again I admit my title is misleading...perhaps it should be changed to:
On April 04 2010 04:24 Dracid wrote: Re-read my first paragraph. I'm not talking about professionals, I'm talking about what advantages foreigners have over Korean amateurs.
As for iccup. How do they not have a chance? White belts don't get better by sparring with black belts. They get better by sparring with people near their own level, and work their way up to being black belts.
Yeah but even Korean amateurs are "black belts" (or less than black belt but still better than white belt...) because they have a culture that reinforces StarCraft, not to mention they're still playing with better players than foreigners are, and on a more consistent basis. In other words they still have the competitive environment that foreigners lack, thus of course they will continue to do better on ICCup.
And yes, white belts get better by sparring with people near their own level...unfortunately there IS no "near level" for foreigners to practice against in order to get better because ALL of the "next levels" of play exist in the exclusive Korean competitive environment, from the worst to the best. And foreigners still don't have access to those "higher levels" of competition.
And, as I've been saying before, IF THEY DID have access, then they would get better.
I guess what I've been trying to say this whole time is that there should be UNRESTRICTED competition between everyone in StarCraft, and everyone should be able to consistently play with players that are at or above their level. I think by now it's too late because even Korean amateurs probably don't want to mess around helping foreigners get better and improve their play (for multiple reasons). Oh well.
Again I admit my title is misleading...perhaps it should be changed to:
On April 04 2010 03:47 Dracid wrote: Here, let me put it simply. Let's assume that Korean pro-gamers are all robots who care little about innovation and all play standard build orders and work on mechanics (Not true, but bear with me). What amazing strategies would foreigners offer that Korean amateurs wouldn't also be thinking of? If you're implying that foreigners are more creative than Koreans who don't play the game for a living, then that's obviously racist. If you're not, then what do foreigners have to offer that Korean amateurs do not?
Look, Koreans are obviously the best, right now. Because they have access to a complete, high-level competitive environment with the masters of the game. I'm not debating that.
However, keep in mind that playing the game for a JOB (literally) means that you have some restrictions...you are much less likely to try new and risky things because it means your job is at stake if you fail, not to mention you let your team down, suffer humiliation, etc. This is where foreigners have a potential advantage - they're not "locked in" to the commercialized, money-driven trashload of restrictions that KeSPA and all the other StarCraft corporations put in. If foreigners could have the same competitive environment that Koreans do, in order to get their mechanics, game sense, and technical skill up to par, then they would be free to push the limits of creativity and try new and crazy things. I'm not saying Koreans are less creative; I'm saying they're RESTRICTED by the very things that you mentioned - money, their job, etc. is all at stake if they try to be "too creative." Foreigners are not restricted in that way. Therefore, foreigners + no restrictions = more creative play with the potential for winning. Of course, this also applies to Koreans....so you could just as easily say Koreans + no restrictions = more creative play, etc. Except in this case, Koreans are pretty much stuck in the system while foreigners aren't, necessarily. Although maybe foreigners would have to become part of the system in order to experience that competitive environment, although I'm sure there's ways around that, as SC2 may show. Is that so hard to understand?
On April 04 2010 03:47 Dracid wrote: Also, do you simply not know what iccup is? There were many complaints about people dodging Koreans during TSL2, it's not like the top foreigners don't have opportunities to play Korean players. The less-skilled players get crushed by an established group of better players? Well what the hell do you think is going to happen when they're going up against professionals instead of amateurs? It's like you're arguing that C- players should be able to compete with A players because they're more likely to innovate. Sure, they might be able to cheese a win here or there, but you don't go from C- to A without first going through the ranks inbetween.
Sure I know what ICCup is; I play on it. Again, you have no point - people dodging Koreans is like white belts dodging black belts because they know the black belts know more, fight more, and have more experience. If the white belts HAD THE CHANCE to actually train and get better vs. the black belts, then they would improve and eventually fight "on par" with the black belts. Bad example on your part....ICCup is just another example of the consequences of a bad competitive environment; you get a majority of elite players that effectively prevent anyone who's trying to get better from getting much-needed practice.
Look your entire argument is based on the fact that "koreans have a better environment to work in." You say that even korean amateurs at an advantage because they get to play "higher level people".
You know what? The highest level of playing in an environment isn't magically set, it's forged by individuals through dedication and perseverance. Players like Boxer, Nada, Savior, Jaedong, Flash, all set the bar higher. This in turn led to the skill level of everyone else around them going up. That's why we respect the Bonjwas, not because they are technically or statistically the best, but because they were able to raise the standard.
My (korean) parents always said, you can always blame things out of your control for your ineptitude, but in the end, you're the one who failed. Set the standard for those around you, and you will pave the path for the success of future generations. (er, rough translation from korean)
Korean pros started out half starving, dirt poor, lying to their parents, sneaking in games at shady PC rooms, and living off of Ramen noodles. Somehow, I feel that there is no foreigner who has a worse environment than that.
Dedication in itself is a skill. Koreans have much more skill at starcraft than foreigners. There is no reason why all the top foreigners (nony, pj, idra, ret, etc) couldn't get together, and practice 10-12 hours a day with each other. Create their own non-korean proteam and pay from out of their own pockets. Earn the RESPECT of the korean progamers, and then they will be welcomed by korean proteams with open arms. But they won't need to, because all they need is themselves.
On April 04 2010 04:24 Dracid wrote: Re-read my first paragraph. I'm not talking about professionals, I'm talking about what advantages foreigners have over Korean amateurs.
As for iccup. How do they not have a chance? White belts don't get better by sparring with black belts. They get better by sparring with people near their own level, and work their way up to being black belts.
Yeah but even Korean amateurs are "black belts" (or less than black belt but still better than white belt...) because they have a culture that reinforces StarCraft, not to mention they're still playing with better players than foreigners are, and on a more consistent basis. In other words they still have the competitive environment that foreigners lack, thus of course they will continue to do better on ICCup.
And yes, white belts get better by sparring with people near their own level...unfortunately there IS no "near level" for foreigners to practice against in order to get better because ALL of the "next levels" of play exist in the exclusive Korean competitive environment, from the worst to the best. And foreigners still don't have access to those "higher levels" of competition.
And, as I've been saying before, IF THEY DID have access, then they would get better.
I guess what I've been trying to say this whole time is that there should be UNRESTRICTED competition between everyone in StarCraft, and everyone should be able to consistently play with players that are at or above their level. I think by now it's too late because even Korean amateurs probably don't want to mess around helping foreigners get better and improve their play (for multiple reasons). Oh well.
Again I admit my title is misleading...perhaps it should be changed to:
On April 04 2010 03:47 Dracid wrote: Here, let me put it simply. Let's assume that Korean pro-gamers are all robots who care little about innovation and all play standard build orders and work on mechanics (Not true, but bear with me). What amazing strategies would foreigners offer that Korean amateurs wouldn't also be thinking of? If you're implying that foreigners are more creative than Koreans who don't play the game for a living, then that's obviously racist. If you're not, then what do foreigners have to offer that Korean amateurs do not?
Look, Koreans are obviously the best, right now. Because they have access to a complete, high-level competitive environment with the masters of the game. I'm not debating that.
However, keep in mind that playing the game for a JOB (literally) means that you have some restrictions...you are much less likely to try new and risky things because it means your job is at stake if you fail, not to mention you let your team down, suffer humiliation, etc. This is where foreigners have a potential advantage - they're not "locked in" to the commercialized, money-driven trashload of restrictions that KeSPA and all the other StarCraft corporations put in. If foreigners could have the same competitive environment that Koreans do, in order to get their mechanics, game sense, and technical skill up to par, then they would be free to push the limits of creativity and try new and crazy things. I'm not saying Koreans are less creative; I'm saying they're RESTRICTED by the very things that you mentioned - money, their job, etc. is all at stake if they try to be "too creative." Foreigners are not restricted in that way. Therefore, foreigners + no restrictions = more creative play with the potential for winning. Of course, this also applies to Koreans....so you could just as easily say Koreans + no restrictions = more creative play, etc. Except in this case, Koreans are pretty much stuck in the system while foreigners aren't, necessarily. Although maybe foreigners would have to become part of the system in order to experience that competitive environment, although I'm sure there's ways around that, as SC2 may show. Is that so hard to understand?
On April 04 2010 03:47 Dracid wrote: Also, do you simply not know what iccup is? There were many complaints about people dodging Koreans during TSL2, it's not like the top foreigners don't have opportunities to play Korean players. The less-skilled players get crushed by an established group of better players? Well what the hell do you think is going to happen when they're going up against professionals instead of amateurs? It's like you're arguing that C- players should be able to compete with A players because they're more likely to innovate. Sure, they might be able to cheese a win here or there, but you don't go from C- to A without first going through the ranks inbetween.
Sure I know what ICCup is; I play on it. Again, you have no point - people dodging Koreans is like white belts dodging black belts because they know the black belts know more, fight more, and have more experience. If the white belts HAD THE CHANCE to actually train and get better vs. the black belts, then they would improve and eventually fight "on par" with the black belts. Bad example on your part....ICCup is just another example of the consequences of a bad competitive environment; you get a majority of elite players that effectively prevent anyone who's trying to get better from getting much-needed practice.
Look your entire argument is based on the fact that "koreans have a better environment to work in." You say that even korean amateurs at an advantage because they get to play "higher level people".
You know what? The highest level of playing in an environment isn't magically set, it's forged by individuals through dedication and perseverance. Players like Boxer, Nada, Savior, Jaedong, Flash, all set the bar higher. This in turn led to the skill level of everyone else around them going up. That's why we respect the Bonjwas, not because they are technically or statistically the best, but because they were able to raise the standard.
My (korean) parents always said, you can always blame things out of your control for your ineptitude, but in the end, you're the one who failed. Set the standard for those around you, and you will pave the path for the success of future generations. (er, rough translation from korean)
Korean pros started out half starving, dirt poor, lying to their parents, sneaking in games at shady PC rooms, and living off of Ramen noodles. Somehow, I feel that there is no foreigner who has a worse environment than that.
Dedication in itself is a skill. Koreans have much more skill at starcraft than foreigners. There is no reason why all the top foreigners (nony, pj, idra, ret, etc) couldn't get together, and practice 10-12 hours a day with each other. Create their own non-korean proteam and pay from out of their own pockets. Earn the RESPECT of the korean progamers, and then they will be welcomed by korean proteams with open arms. But they won't need to, because all they need is themselves.
Amen to this. Finally someone who makes sense.
Case in point: Boxer's tour of progamer house Don't let the title of the video fool you. This is before they got the sponsorship from SKT.
Plus Team House This house is even worse. There's only 5 guys and 2 rooms.
You can't "blame" the koreans for the large skill gap, the only "blame" (if blame is even a remotely proper word here) is to be put on the foreign community themselves. There is no reason why foreigners can't get together and make their own even more ultra competitive SL and create even greater players than the koreans, but they just don't. Another good point someone else made was the Flash build, Bisu build, Boxer's creativity, how July revolutionized the zerg play, the list goes on and on were all korean inventions
On April 04 2010 07:05 Xenocide_Knight wrote: Look your entire argument is based on the fact that "koreans have a better environment to work in." You say that even korean amateurs at an advantage because they get to play "higher level people".
You know what? The highest level of playing in an environment isn't magically set, it's forged by individuals through dedication and perseverance. Players like Boxer, Nada, Savior, Jaedong, Flash, all set the bar higher. This in turn led to the skill level of everyone else around them going up. That's why we respect the Bonjwas, not because they are technically or statistically the best, but because they were able to raise the standard.
My (korean) parents always said, you can always blame things out of your control for your ineptitude, but in the end, you're the one who failed. Set the standard for those around you, and you will pave the path for the success of future generations. (er, rough translation from korean)
Korean pros started out half starving, dirt poor, lying to their parents, sneaking in games at shady PC rooms, and living off of Ramen noodles. Somehow, I feel that there is no foreigner who has a worse environment than that.
Dedication in itself is a skill. Koreans have much more skill at starcraft than foreigners. There is no reason why all the top foreigners (nony, pj, idra, ret, etc) couldn't get together, and practice 10-12 hours a day with each other. Create their own non-korean proteam and pay from out of their own pockets. Earn the RESPECT of the korean progamers, and then they will be welcomed by korean proteams with open arms. But they won't need to, because all they need is themselves.
Alright...I'll accept that. I guess I'm not thinking about the fact that the Koreans worked really, really hard to get to where they are, and there's certainly nothing wrong with that. Perhaps I was a bit hasty in just looking at the situation from a purely competitive standpoint - good post.
On April 04 2010 08:01 HeartOfTofu wrote: This has to be one of the dumbest threads I've read on TL in a while... -_-
The worst part is I actually wasted my life reading every word of it..
I think threads like these are good every once in a while. Lets the people vent for a bit. This thread should be closed soon, though, before it goes out of control.
On April 04 2010 04:24 Dracid wrote: Re-read my first paragraph. I'm not talking about professionals, I'm talking about what advantages foreigners have over Korean amateurs.
As for iccup. How do they not have a chance? White belts don't get better by sparring with black belts. They get better by sparring with people near their own level, and work their way up to being black belts.
Yeah but even Korean amateurs are "black belts" (or less than black belt but still better than white belt...) because they have a culture that reinforces StarCraft, not to mention they're still playing with better players than foreigners are, and on a more consistent basis. In other words they still have the competitive environment that foreigners lack, thus of course they will continue to do better on ICCup.
And yes, white belts get better by sparring with people near their own level...unfortunately there IS no "near level" for foreigners to practice against in order to get better because ALL of the "next levels" of play exist in the exclusive Korean competitive environment, from the worst to the best. And foreigners still don't have access to those "higher levels" of competition.
And, as I've been saying before, IF THEY DID have access, then they would get better.
I guess what I've been trying to say this whole time is that there should be UNRESTRICTED competition between everyone in StarCraft, and everyone should be able to consistently play with players that are at or above their level. I think by now it's too late because even Korean amateurs probably don't want to mess around helping foreigners get better and improve their play (for multiple reasons). Oh well.
Again I admit my title is misleading...perhaps it should be changed to:
On April 04 2010 03:47 Dracid wrote: Here, let me put it simply. Let's assume that Korean pro-gamers are all robots who care little about innovation and all play standard build orders and work on mechanics (Not true, but bear with me). What amazing strategies would foreigners offer that Korean amateurs wouldn't also be thinking of? If you're implying that foreigners are more creative than Koreans who don't play the game for a living, then that's obviously racist. If you're not, then what do foreigners have to offer that Korean amateurs do not?
Look, Koreans are obviously the best, right now. Because they have access to a complete, high-level competitive environment with the masters of the game. I'm not debating that.
However, keep in mind that playing the game for a JOB (literally) means that you have some restrictions...you are much less likely to try new and risky things because it means your job is at stake if you fail, not to mention you let your team down, suffer humiliation, etc. This is where foreigners have a potential advantage - they're not "locked in" to the commercialized, money-driven trashload of restrictions that KeSPA and all the other StarCraft corporations put in. If foreigners could have the same competitive environment that Koreans do, in order to get their mechanics, game sense, and technical skill up to par, then they would be free to push the limits of creativity and try new and crazy things. I'm not saying Koreans are less creative; I'm saying they're RESTRICTED by the very things that you mentioned - money, their job, etc. is all at stake if they try to be "too creative." Foreigners are not restricted in that way. Therefore, foreigners + no restrictions = more creative play with the potential for winning. Of course, this also applies to Koreans....so you could just as easily say Koreans + no restrictions = more creative play, etc. Except in this case, Koreans are pretty much stuck in the system while foreigners aren't, necessarily. Although maybe foreigners would have to become part of the system in order to experience that competitive environment, although I'm sure there's ways around that, as SC2 may show. Is that so hard to understand?
On April 04 2010 03:47 Dracid wrote: Also, do you simply not know what iccup is? There were many complaints about people dodging Koreans during TSL2, it's not like the top foreigners don't have opportunities to play Korean players. The less-skilled players get crushed by an established group of better players? Well what the hell do you think is going to happen when they're going up against professionals instead of amateurs? It's like you're arguing that C- players should be able to compete with A players because they're more likely to innovate. Sure, they might be able to cheese a win here or there, but you don't go from C- to A without first going through the ranks inbetween.
Sure I know what ICCup is; I play on it. Again, you have no point - people dodging Koreans is like white belts dodging black belts because they know the black belts know more, fight more, and have more experience. If the white belts HAD THE CHANCE to actually train and get better vs. the black belts, then they would improve and eventually fight "on par" with the black belts. Bad example on your part....ICCup is just another example of the consequences of a bad competitive environment; you get a majority of elite players that effectively prevent anyone who's trying to get better from getting much-needed practice.
Look your entire argument is based on the fact that "koreans have a better environment to work in." You say that even korean amateurs at an advantage because they get to play "higher level people".
You know what? The highest level of playing in an environment isn't magically set, it's forged by individuals through dedication and perseverance. Players like Boxer, Nada, Savior, Jaedong, Flash, all set the bar higher. This in turn led to the skill level of everyone else around them going up. That's why we respect the Bonjwas, not because they are technically or statistically the best, but because they were able to raise the standard.
My (korean) parents always said, you can always blame things out of your control for your ineptitude, but in the end, you're the one who failed. Set the standard for those around you, and you will pave the path for the success of future generations. (er, rough translation from korean)
Korean pros started out half starving, dirt poor, lying to their parents, sneaking in games at shady PC rooms, and living off of Ramen noodles. Somehow, I feel that there is no foreigner who has a worse environment than that.
Dedication in itself is a skill. Koreans have much more skill at starcraft than foreigners. There is no reason why all the top foreigners (nony, pj, idra, ret, etc) couldn't get together, and practice 10-12 hours a day with each other. Create their own non-korean proteam and pay from out of their own pockets. Earn the RESPECT of the korean progamers, and then they will be welcomed by korean proteams with open arms. But they won't need to, because all they need is themselves.
The opportunity cost for most American and European players is much higher than it was for those first Korean players. So while the Koreans showed great dedication, in order for Americans and Europeans to follow the same route, they'd have to have the same dedication AND a lot more sacrifice.
That advice sucks. It's general advice that could be absolutely incorrect in many situations. Better to look at the evidence, use reasoning, and draw a conclusion about the way it is for the particular situation.
There isn't any reasonable way to glorify the fact that Korea has the only community that truly cares about being good at StarCraft. We can respect what they've achieved but when we make comparisons to other communities, it never becomes irrelevant to say "well nobody else cares."
The opportunity cost for Americans and Europeans are indeed higher, but the reason it is higher is partly due to culture, which is what Xenocide_Knight and others alluded to. Koreans care a lot about winning in these kinds of set competitions and Starcraft happens to be one of the set competitions that they've attached themselves to. They are willing, generally, to train themselves much more, both for passion and for the fact that it is scene as a legitimate career in Korea.
It is, of course, also accurate to point out that this attachment makes a huge difference. In other games Koreans are not nearly as dominant. In DOTA, for example (the other game GG.net covers aside from SC and WC 3), they have no presence at all. I'm sure if we were to ask, "why does Korean DOTA suck so much," the answer would not devolve to this level of controversy, but would simply suffice at "because the Korean pro DOTA scene isn't very big." It is because SC is seen as a Korean vs. non-Korean scene that there is such debate, because for a small country to be so peerless in a widely popular game is unusual.
Still, I think Xenocide_Knight brings up a good point in describing how the Korean pro scene arose. It is not as if the SC pro scene could not have arisen anywhere else. Certainly a group of Americans or Europeans could've taken the game seriously enough to have produced a Boxer, and to have organized an awesome scene, like TL.net is today. This then brings up the question of why they did not do so - American and European gaming were in a better shape, at least financially, to have given birth to serious SC e-sports than Korean gaming, yet it was Korea that made the jump.
I think the OP is trying to get at how robotic the Koreans are. They do the same thing over and over again, never *any* deviation. Exact same responses, exact same set of builds. However, they do this because it works. Progamers probably have a much more in depth knowledge of the builds. When facing iCCup Koreans though, doing an effective, unorthodox strategy will put you at a significant edge against them. Just doesn't always work because they simply have superior mechanics.
Oh, another one of those "Koreans are gods" threads. They are good, because they play this game for a living. As far as I know there are few non-Korean players playing full time who do pretty well in Warcraft 3 tournaments. As for strategy and thinking, I would say that some progamers and good players play smart with nice builds and brilliant game sense, while others seem to behave like robots or do retarded builds that seem to make no sense at all.
In general, the level on which we understand the game is still very, very low; ok we have some meta strategy shifts due to build orders, but there is really no technical in depth analysis including timings, variants and such simple variables as number of workers. Most build orders are pretty general and usually end with a simple advice to adjust to the opponents actions. Unfortunately this is pretty useless, as for a 10 year old game one could expect a very good econometric model, that would allow to test build vs build scenarios with such factors as number of workers, timing, distance from bases, input errors (progamers are like robots, but dont play perfect), micro, scouting etc. Say "what would happen if I did 1 more drone at 50 population" or "what happens if I kill 8 marines with muta harass". Of course after playing 54364236523453 practice games you can probably learn it, but sometimes I think that many progamers dont! Also, when it comes to starcraft and creativity - apart from few players like Boxer and Nal_Ra, there wasnt that much innovation. Of course people will argue that "bisu created a genius build - aka started using corsairs.." or that "gorush introduced defilers" - but it's more like playing the game as if it is supposed to be played. Seriously, if blizzard didnt want us to use defilers, they wouldnt put them into the game. And fast expanding was described in the first battle reports... it wasnt that good on Lost temple though.
In general, the meta analysis of the game is on very low level; the last tool to allow it was made in like 2004 I think - unfortunately I dont remember the name; it was a form of a calculator that allowed you to input information about build, and would give you a timing and (I think) number of minerals collected in perfect conditions.
As for any other starcraft tools - koreans have designed NONE. All the good tools were made by "foreigners" (what a retarded term, non-Koreans is much better) including bnet emulator (e.g. iccup), anti hack, MAP EDITORS!!!!, map protectors; even map hack. No offense, but if there are so many Koreans playing the game, why didnt they figure out any tool for the game? They have leagues shown on TV and they dont even use this hack which allows higher resolution - they could pay the author to perfect the program... All the mapmaking tricks like netural buildings were known for 5+ years, but only caught by the Korean mapmakers 2-3 years ago I think (I suppose that the general level of English in Korea has improved dramatically over the last few years so the tools were translated and learned by mapmakers, who probably never followed such websites as staredit.net; actually this leads to another question - in the past we had so many threads stating that Koreans study so hard, yet it's impossible to talk to any of them in English; while you can chat with people from all those weird countries like France etc. how come?). Not to mention the map designs, which still are pretty lame.
btw. Idra is probably not the best non Korean player. He is considered best only by Americans, who like him, since he is American. It's like Polish people being Draco's fanboys; Germans standing behind Koll etc. We need to understand that many talented players simply did not want/have the chance to go to Korea and practice there. Personally I think that Mondragon had the biggest potential, because he has decent mechanics and understanding of the game. He never went to Korea to practice for many hours a day though, so we will never know. The only 2 non Kor players I know who prepared special builds vs selected opponents are Nony and Mistrzzz; other players seem to play standard.
On April 04 2010 09:22 Azarkon wrote: The opportunity cost for Americans and Europeans are indeed higher, but the reason it is higher is partly due to culture, which is what Xenocide_Knight and others alluded to. Koreans care a lot about winning in these kinds of set competitions and Starcraft happens to be one of the set competitions that they've attached themselves to. They are willing, generally, to train themselves much more, both for passion and for the fact that it is scene as a legitimate career in Korea.
I don't see any reason, and you haven't provided one, why cultural consideration is a special explanation of the difference in opportunity cost. No matter what is determining the different opportunity cost, it works the same. So I don't see my point about sacrifice as compromised at all.
On April 04 2010 09:22 Azarkon wrote: It is, of course, also accurate to point out that this attachment makes a huge difference. In other games Koreans are not nearly as dominant. In DOTA, for example (the other game GG.net covers aside from SC and WC 3), they have no presence at all. I'm sure if we were to ask, "why does Korean DOTA suck so much," the answer would not devolve to this level of controversy, but would simply suffice at "because the Korean pro DOTA scene isn't very big." It is because SC is seen as a Korean vs. non-Korean scene that there is such debate, because for a small country to be so peerless in a widely popular game is unusual.
I fail to see why this is interesting. Yeah, there is a huge difference between the entire world being good at something except for one country and the entire world being bad at something except for one country. How is this relevant? I guess you want to make it relevant by saying SC is popular worldwide. But we aren't talking about SC the game. We are talking about SC the e-sport. Korea invented SC the e-sport and it didn't catch on anywhere else. SC the e-sport is not popular worldwide and TL.net is not significant enough counter-evidence to that statement.
On April 04 2010 09:22 Azarkon wrote: Still, I think Xenocide_Knight brings up a good point in describing how the Korean pro scene arose. It is not as if the SC pro scene could not have arisen anywhere else. Certainly a group of Americans or Europeans could've taken the game seriously enough to have produced a Boxer, and to have organized an awesome scene, like TL.net is today. This then brings up the question of why they did not do so - American and European gaming were in a better shape, at least financially, to have given birth to serious SC e-sports than Korean gaming, yet it was Korea that made the jump.
I really doubt that American and European investors were in better shape to throw money at e-sports. That would have to mean that they have no better idea for investing their money. But there were probably a million better ideas in their countries.
I don't know the exact state of South Korea and its economy when SC was rising up, but I would guess it's something like this: SC sweeps the nation -- it's what all the kids are doing. The country is officially trying to be more technologically advanced as a way to secure a good economy in the future -- better internet, pc bangs everywhere, huge electronics industry, etc. Geographically small country, dense population in Seoul makes live competitions much more feasible and promotes the unity of culture and ideas. These things put together made it possible for tournaments and leagues to actually be worthwhile investments. Extremely competitive education system creates an abundance of youths who can see that they're not headed for some great professional job. The chance that these kids are the ones playing a lot of SC is pretty high. Tournaments and leagues gave kids incentive to go all-in with becoming progamers.
In other countries, you have a bunch of problems: investors have other opportunities, costs more because of travel costs (or you accept that people aren't going to travel and the number of relevant people gets cut), less general interest in the game which reduces the number of potential spectators, the potential progamers have better opportunities.
This analysis is really vague because I don't know the history that well and I don't know much about economics. But it seems you are thinking about it intuitively and, since I don't have a lot of solid facts and stats to back up my view, I'll admit that I'm thinking about it intuitively too. But if there is any truth to the way I put it, then a lot of happenstance and convergence of beneficial circumstances helped Korea get their e-sports scene.
So the main point that I'm sticking to in this thread is this: Korea worked hard as hell to get their SC scene as amazing as it is now, and that's admirable, but comparisons to other communities are meaningless.
On April 04 2010 09:26 Archaic wrote: I think the OP is trying to get at how robotic the Koreans are. They do the same thing over and over again, never *any* deviation. Exact same responses, exact same set of builds. However, they do this because it works. Progamers probably have a much more in depth knowledge of the builds. When facing iCCup Koreans though, doing an effective, unorthodox strategy will put you at a significant edge against them. Just doesn't always work because they simply have superior mechanics.
calling korean starcraft robotic just makes no sense and i don't understand how anyone gets to this conclusion. does following a standard build order in chess make you robotic? absolutely-fucking-not, and just as there are thousands of openings/responses for the first 15-25 moves in chess, so too are there are optimized build orders in starcraft for the first 5-8 minutes of the game. Creativity is there, it's just that it must express itself within the constructs of optimized builds, and when the midgame begins the players are able to shed the strict rules of early game and fully express their creativity. Calling foreinger starcraft "creative" for not following a build is like complimenting a noob opening with king's pawn --> queen d5 and hoping for black to play retarded with them.
Nor have these builds stagnated, but new ones are being made all the time. The difference is that in the korean arena, these builds are designed and tested with the idea of succeeding in the highest level of play, whereas in the foreign scene they're just doing whatever they want cuz they don't have to face the highest level of compeition. Let's go back to chess. If I knew i was gonna play scrubs all day long i'd open with the Danish or center-counter every game because it's hliarious and lots of people don't know what to do against it. But if i''m playing someone good there's no way in hell i'd use it unless it was a speed game and it was like game6 of a 10 game series, just to throw him off. You just don't consistently open with shitty build orders if you're playing good players, no matter what the game.
and it's not like they don't understand the motive or the theory behind their openings either. that's something the foreigners are guilty of, copying a build order and just hoping to execute it. Just as chess players understand why they choose an opening or a variation of such and how it matches their gamestyle, so too do these players understand why they open the way they do and what their objective is with said opening. so yah, proxy hatch is super cool and super creative yo! foreigners do it all the time! but when koreans do it ala zero, he does it with a clear understanding of why it'll work, how it fits the map and how its variance from the standard will give him x advantages while exposing Y weaknesses.
I don't know the exact state of South Korea and its economy when SC was rising up, but I would guess it's something like this: SC sweeps the nation -- it's what all the kids are doing. The country is officially trying to be more technologically advanced as a way to secure a good economy in the future -- better internet, pc bangs everywhere, huge electronics industry, etc. Geographically small country, dense population in Seoul makes live competitions much more feasible and promotes the unity of culture and ideas. These things put together made it possible for tournaments and leagues to actually be worthwhile investments. Extremely competitive education system creates an abundance of youths who can see that they're not headed for some great professional job. The chance that these kids are the ones playing a lot of SC is pretty high. Tournaments and leagues gave kids incentive to go all-in with becoming progamers.
In other countries, you have a bunch of problems: investors have other opportunities, costs more because of travel costs (or you accept that people aren't going to travel and the number of relevant people gets cut), less general interest in the game which reduces the number of potential spectators, the potential progamers have better opportunities.
This analysis is really vague because I don't know the history that well and I don't know much about economics. But it seems you are thinking about it intuitively and, since I don't have a lot of solid facts and stats to back up my view, I'll admit that I'm thinking about it intuitively too. But if there is any truth to the way I put it, then a lot of happenstance and convergence of beneficial circumstances helped Korea get their e-sports scene.
So the main point that I'm sticking to in this thread is this: Korea worked hard as hell to get their SC scene as amazing as it is now, and that's admirable, but comparisons to other communities are meaningless.
yo, this post is pretty spot on, especially about education, national desire to be "technological", close proximity, dense populations, etc. you could also add homogeneity and a cultural history of respecting strategy games ala korean chess and badook.
the one thing i don't agree with you though is the idea of comparing opportunity cost. Due to super-strict labor laws, culture based longevity/hierarchy and a workforce with an absurd number of college graduates, it's extremely hard for a recent college grade to get a job in korea. but i would argue that's not much different from socialist countries like france or germany which have super high unemployment rates amongst those aged 20-30. In America, it's might be easier to get a job (though not right now), but the ingrained social concept of living alone, paying rent, and overall higher expenses kinda dampens the opportunity cost comparison with koera, where living with your parents until marriage is the social norm.
i guess what i'm trying to say is comparing opportunity cost among countries makes no sense, and it would be better served to compare it with the opportunity cost problem a sports star would face.
On April 04 2010 09:43 Green_Ranger wrote: Also, when it comes to starcraft and creativity - apart from few players like Boxer and Nal_Ra, there wasnt that much innovation. Of course people will argue that "bisu created a genius build - aka started using corsairs.." or that "gorush introduced defilers" - but it's more like playing the game as if it is supposed to be played. Seriously, if blizzard didnt want us to use defilers, they wouldnt put them into the game. And fast expanding was described in the first battle reports... it wasnt that good on Lost temple though.
Whaat the fuck are you talking about, innovation happens all the time in BW, its just a lot more subtle than what Nal_ra or Boxer did. Bisu didn't invent fast expand, in fact Protosses fast expanded whenever they could get away with it. Bisu's true innovation and legacy was the modern use of the corsair. Gorush didn't introduce defilers, he just merely used it a lot more than other players of his time.
Idra is probably not the best non Korean player. He is considered best only by Americans, who like him, since he is American. It's like Polish people being Draco's fanboys; Germans standing behind Koll etc
I think only blind fanboys, people who don't know the game, and idiots think that Idra is not the best non Korean BW player, pretty much everyone in TL agrees that Idra is the top foreigner.
I don't know the exact state of South Korea and its economy when SC was rising up, but I would guess it's something like this: SC sweeps the nation -- it's what all the kids are doing. The country is officially trying to be more technologically advanced as a way to secure a good economy in the future -- better internet, pc bangs everywhere, huge electronics industry, etc. Geographically small country, dense population in Seoul makes live competitions much more feasible and promotes the unity of culture and ideas. These things put together made it possible for tournaments and leagues to actually be worthwhile investments. Extremely competitive education system creates an abundance of youths who can see that they're not headed for some great professional job. The chance that these kids are the ones playing a lot of SC is pretty high. Tournaments and leagues gave kids incentive to go all-in with becoming progamers.
In other countries, you have a bunch of problems: investors have other opportunities, costs more because of travel costs (or you accept that people aren't going to travel and the number of relevant people gets cut), less general interest in the game which reduces the number of potential spectators, the potential progamers have better opportunities.
This analysis is really vague because I don't know the history that well and I don't know much about economics. But it seems you are thinking about it intuitively and, since I don't have a lot of solid facts and stats to back up my view, I'll admit that I'm thinking about it intuitively too. But if there is any truth to the way I put it, then a lot of happenstance and convergence of beneficial circumstances helped Korea get their e-sports scene.
So the main point that I'm sticking to in this thread is this: Korea worked hard as hell to get their SC scene as amazing as it is now, and that's admirable, but comparisons to other communities are meaningless.
yo, this post is pretty spot on, especially about education, national desire to be "technological", close proximity, dense populations, etc. you could also add homogeneity and a cultural history of respecting strategy games ala korean chess and badook.
the one thing i don't agree with you though is the idea of comparing opportunity cost. Due to super-strict labor laws, culture based longevity/hierarchy and a workforce with an absurd number of college graduates, it's extremely hard for a recent college grade to get a job in korea. but i would argue that's not much different from socialist countries like france or germany which have super high unemployment rates amongst those aged 20-30. In America, it's might be easier to get a job (though not right now), but the ingrained social concept of living alone, paying rent, and overall higher expenses kinda dampens the opportunity cost comparison with koera, where living with your parents until marriage is the social norm.
i guess what i'm trying to say is comparing opportunity cost among countries makes no sense, and it would be better served to compare it with the opportunity cost problem a sports star would face.
Listen, you don't know what socialism means (omgizreallybadright?), you don't know about France and you don't know about Germany. Situation in France right now is way better than situation in England (I'm leaving London cuz it's impossible to make a living there), and our healthcare is less expensive than the American one and wayyyyy more efficient.
France highest unemployement rate has been around 11% in its darkest year. 20 - 30% what the fuck man?
Stop being a Fox News brainwashed zombi and to talk about things you have no ideas about in irrelevant threads. Jesus.
EDIT: Ok, doens't make any sense. Sorry about that. User was temp banned for this post.
I don't know the exact state of South Korea and its economy when SC was rising up, but I would guess it's something like this: SC sweeps the nation -- it's what all the kids are doing. The country is officially trying to be more technologically advanced as a way to secure a good economy in the future -- better internet, pc bangs everywhere, huge electronics industry, etc. Geographically small country, dense population in Seoul makes live competitions much more feasible and promotes the unity of culture and ideas. These things put together made it possible for tournaments and leagues to actually be worthwhile investments. Extremely competitive education system creates an abundance of youths who can see that they're not headed for some great professional job. The chance that these kids are the ones playing a lot of SC is pretty high. Tournaments and leagues gave kids incentive to go all-in with becoming progamers.
In other countries, you have a bunch of problems: investors have other opportunities, costs more because of travel costs (or you accept that people aren't going to travel and the number of relevant people gets cut), less general interest in the game which reduces the number of potential spectators, the potential progamers have better opportunities.
This analysis is really vague because I don't know the history that well and I don't know much about economics. But it seems you are thinking about it intuitively and, since I don't have a lot of solid facts and stats to back up my view, I'll admit that I'm thinking about it intuitively too. But if there is any truth to the way I put it, then a lot of happenstance and convergence of beneficial circumstances helped Korea get their e-sports scene.
So the main point that I'm sticking to in this thread is this: Korea worked hard as hell to get their SC scene as amazing as it is now, and that's admirable, but comparisons to other communities are meaningless.
yo, this post is pretty spot on, especially about education, national desire to be "technological", close proximity, dense populations, etc. you could also add homogeneity and a cultural history of respecting strategy games ala korean chess and badook.
the one thing i don't agree with you though is the idea of comparing opportunity cost. Due to super-strict labor laws, culture based longevity/hierarchy and a workforce with an absurd number of college graduates, it's extremely hard for a recent college grade to get a job in korea. but i would argue that's not much different from socialist countries like france or germany which have super high unemployment rates amongst those aged 20-30. In America, it's might be easier to get a job (though not right now), but the ingrained social concept of living alone, paying rent, and overall higher expenses kinda dampens the opportunity cost comparison with koera, where living with your parents until marriage is the social norm.
i guess what i'm trying to say is comparing opportunity cost among countries makes no sense, and it would be better served to compare it with the opportunity cost problem a sports star would face.
Listen, you don't know what socialism means (omgizreallybadright?), you don't know about France and you don't know about Germany.
France highest unemployement rate has been around 11% in itrs darkest year. 20 - 30% what the fuck man?
Stop being a Fox News brainwashed zombi and to talk about things you have no ideas about in irrelevant threads. Jesus.
what?
-_- maybe you should breathe a bit first and then re-read what i wrote (hint AGED not RANGED). nor am i attaching any stigma to the word socialist as nothing in my post insinuates some sort of personal distaste for it.
I don't know the exact state of South Korea and its economy when SC was rising up, but I would guess it's something like this: SC sweeps the nation -- it's what all the kids are doing. The country is officially trying to be more technologically advanced as a way to secure a good economy in the future -- better internet, pc bangs everywhere, huge electronics industry, etc. Geographically small country, dense population in Seoul makes live competitions much more feasible and promotes the unity of culture and ideas. These things put together made it possible for tournaments and leagues to actually be worthwhile investments. Extremely competitive education system creates an abundance of youths who can see that they're not headed for some great professional job. The chance that these kids are the ones playing a lot of SC is pretty high. Tournaments and leagues gave kids incentive to go all-in with becoming progamers.
In other countries, you have a bunch of problems: investors have other opportunities, costs more because of travel costs (or you accept that people aren't going to travel and the number of relevant people gets cut), less general interest in the game which reduces the number of potential spectators, the potential progamers have better opportunities.
This analysis is really vague because I don't know the history that well and I don't know much about economics. But it seems you are thinking about it intuitively and, since I don't have a lot of solid facts and stats to back up my view, I'll admit that I'm thinking about it intuitively too. But if there is any truth to the way I put it, then a lot of happenstance and convergence of beneficial circumstances helped Korea get their e-sports scene.
So the main point that I'm sticking to in this thread is this: Korea worked hard as hell to get their SC scene as amazing as it is now, and that's admirable, but comparisons to other communities are meaningless.
yo, this post is pretty spot on, especially about education, national desire to be "technological", close proximity, dense populations, etc. you could also add homogeneity and a cultural history of respecting strategy games ala korean chess and badook.
the one thing i don't agree with you though is the idea of comparing opportunity cost. Due to super-strict labor laws, culture based longevity/hierarchy and a workforce with an absurd number of college graduates, it's extremely hard for a recent college grade to get a job in korea. but i would argue that's not much different from socialist countries like france or germany which have super high unemployment rates amongst those aged 20-30. In America, it's might be easier to get a job (though not right now), but the ingrained social concept of living alone, paying rent, and overall higher expenses kinda dampens the opportunity cost comparison with koera, where living with your parents until marriage is the social norm.
i guess what i'm trying to say is comparing opportunity cost among countries makes no sense, and it would be better served to compare it with the opportunity cost problem a sports star would face.
Listen, you don't know what socialism means (omgizreallybadright?), you don't know about France and you don't know about Germany.
France highest unemployement rate has been around 11% in itrs darkest year. 20 - 30% what the fuck man?
Stop being a Fox News brainwashed zombi and to talk about things you have no ideas about in irrelevant threads. Jesus.
what?
-_- maybe you should breathe a bit first and then re-read what i wrote (hint AGED not RANGED). nor am i attaching any stigma to the word socialist as nothing in my post insinuates some sort of personal distaste for it.
I don't know the exact state of South Korea and its economy when SC was rising up, but I would guess it's something like this: SC sweeps the nation -- it's what all the kids are doing. The country is officially trying to be more technologically advanced as a way to secure a good economy in the future -- better internet, pc bangs everywhere, huge electronics industry, etc. Geographically small country, dense population in Seoul makes live competitions much more feasible and promotes the unity of culture and ideas. These things put together made it possible for tournaments and leagues to actually be worthwhile investments. Extremely competitive education system creates an abundance of youths who can see that they're not headed for some great professional job. The chance that these kids are the ones playing a lot of SC is pretty high. Tournaments and leagues gave kids incentive to go all-in with becoming progamers.
In other countries, you have a bunch of problems: investors have other opportunities, costs more because of travel costs (or you accept that people aren't going to travel and the number of relevant people gets cut), less general interest in the game which reduces the number of potential spectators, the potential progamers have better opportunities.
This analysis is really vague because I don't know the history that well and I don't know much about economics. But it seems you are thinking about it intuitively and, since I don't have a lot of solid facts and stats to back up my view, I'll admit that I'm thinking about it intuitively too. But if there is any truth to the way I put it, then a lot of happenstance and convergence of beneficial circumstances helped Korea get their e-sports scene.
So the main point that I'm sticking to in this thread is this: Korea worked hard as hell to get their SC scene as amazing as it is now, and that's admirable, but comparisons to other communities are meaningless.
yo, this post is pretty spot on, especially about education, national desire to be "technological", close proximity, dense populations, etc. you could also add homogeneity and a cultural history of respecting strategy games ala korean chess and badook.
the one thing i don't agree with you though is the idea of comparing opportunity cost. Due to super-strict labor laws, culture based longevity/hierarchy and a workforce with an absurd number of college graduates, it's extremely hard for a recent college grade to get a job in korea. but i would argue that's not much different from socialist countries like france or germany which have super high unemployment rates amongst those aged 20-30. In America, it's might be easier to get a job (though not right now), but the ingrained social concept of living alone, paying rent, and overall higher expenses kinda dampens the opportunity cost comparison with koera, where living with your parents until marriage is the social norm.
i guess what i'm trying to say is comparing opportunity cost among countries makes no sense, and it would be better served to compare it with the opportunity cost problem a sports star would face.
Listen, you don't know what socialism means (omgizreallybadright?), you don't know about France and you don't know about Germany.
France highest unemployement rate has been around 11% in itrs darkest year. 20 - 30% what the fuck man?
Stop being a Fox News brainwashed zombi and to talk about things you have no ideas about in irrelevant threads. Jesus.
what?
-_- maybe you should breathe a bit first and then re-read what i wrote (hint AGED not RANGED). nor am i attaching any stigma to the word socialist as nothing in my post insinuates some sort of personal distaste for it.
EDIT:
Sure. Sorry but changing a 9% to 20 - 30% to say that a system is unefficient, I call that propaganda. Plus France is not even a socialist country stricto sensu.
erm.. I think you clearly did not re-read what he said
a noticeable fact is the high youth unemployment rate in France, compared to similar countries. During the years 1994-1997 it hits a peak (virtually 30 percent of the 15-24 old labor force was unemployed.) After 1998 it declined (20 percent in 2002).
Here's a better article, a bit more recent (2006), from the Economist:
But it is the precipitous decline in the employment rate of young men that is the most striking feature of this table: 30 points, as opposed to...2 points in the US. Even if one focusses on the older half, the 20-24 age group, the difference remains striking: only 40% of these young men are employed in France, as compared to roughly 90% in the 30-49 age group.
On April 04 2010 19:37 ploy wrote: Owned. I can't stand people who argue without knowing at all what they are talking about (and lack any sort of reading comprehension to boot)
Look dude, I reacted stupidly, I recognized I was wrong and I apologized publicly, which you don't see often on theses forums, now you are the one being a douchebag. User was temp banned for this post.
On April 04 2010 19:37 ploy wrote: Owned. I can't stand people who argue without knowing at all what they are talking about (and lack any sort of reading comprehension to boot)
Look dude, I reacted stupidly, I recognized I was wrong and I apologized publicly, which you don't see often on theses forums, now you are the one being a douchebag.
On April 04 2010 19:37 ploy wrote: Owned. I can't stand people who argue without knowing at all what they are talking about (and lack any sort of reading comprehension to boot)
Look dude, I reacted stupidly, I recognized I was wrong and I apologized publicly, which you don't see often on theses forums, now you are the one being a douchebag.
Nope, still you.
That's very constructive, thanks. Gogogo shitstorm. User was temp banned for this post.
I sort of think the OP makes a few good points but I still think out of the top 1000 players in the world, 999 are korean..
getting lucky in 1 or 2 games means nothing, I beat TheMarine PvT once in 2004 but after that game he proceeded to smack me around the next 4 games in a row, and the koreans today make TheMarine look like a n00b
with the way starcraft works it's possible for a very skilled foreigner to straight up get LUCKY and win a game or two vs ANYONE, but in a Bo5 situation they would have no chance in my opinion.
EPT
