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Foreigners > Koreans? - Page 10

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writer22816
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States5775 Posts
April 04 2010 10:02 GMT
#181
On April 04 2010 05:03 Nytefish wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 04 2010 05:01 haster27 wrote:
Simplification for all. Forget all this foreigners vs koreans crap.

There are people A and people B who has equal amount of skill and potential.

People A is placed in the condition which allows him to develop his skill and maximize his potential.
People B is not.

People A is statistically more likely to play better than Player B. I don't see what is the problem here?


OP is arguing people B have more potential because they're smarter.


This pretty much sums up the whole thread.
8/4/12 never forget, never forgive.
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France8073 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-05 07:21:30
April 04 2010 10:07 GMT
#182
On April 04 2010 19:02 writer22816 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 04 2010 05:03 Nytefish wrote:
On April 04 2010 05:01 haster27 wrote:
Simplification for all. Forget all this foreigners vs koreans crap.

There are people A and people B who has equal amount of skill and potential.

People A is placed in the condition which allows him to develop his skill and maximize his potential.
People B is not.

People A is statistically more likely to play better than Player B. I don't see what is the problem here?


OP is arguing people B have more potential because they're smarter.


This pretty much sums up the whole thread.

With such amazing and convincing argument, we could just wish that this thread get closed quickly.

User was temp banned for this post.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
Xenocide_Knight
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Korea (South)2625 Posts
April 04 2010 10:24 GMT
#183
On April 04 2010 18:55 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 04 2010 18:52 d_so wrote:
On April 04 2010 18:50 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On April 04 2010 10:39 d_so wrote:
On April 04 2010 10:01 Liquid`NonY wrote:

I don't know the exact state of South Korea and its economy when SC was rising up, but I would guess it's something like this: SC sweeps the nation -- it's what all the kids are doing. The country is officially trying to be more technologically advanced as a way to secure a good economy in the future -- better internet, pc bangs everywhere, huge electronics industry, etc. Geographically small country, dense population in Seoul makes live competitions much more feasible and promotes the unity of culture and ideas. These things put together made it possible for tournaments and leagues to actually be worthwhile investments. Extremely competitive education system creates an abundance of youths who can see that they're not headed for some great professional job. The chance that these kids are the ones playing a lot of SC is pretty high. Tournaments and leagues gave kids incentive to go all-in with becoming progamers.

In other countries, you have a bunch of problems: investors have other opportunities, costs more because of travel costs (or you accept that people aren't going to travel and the number of relevant people gets cut), less general interest in the game which reduces the number of potential spectators, the potential progamers have better opportunities.

This analysis is really vague because I don't know the history that well and I don't know much about economics. But it seems you are thinking about it intuitively and, since I don't have a lot of solid facts and stats to back up my view, I'll admit that I'm thinking about it intuitively too. But if there is any truth to the way I put it, then a lot of happenstance and convergence of beneficial circumstances helped Korea get their e-sports scene.

So the main point that I'm sticking to in this thread is this: Korea worked hard as hell to get their SC scene as amazing as it is now, and that's admirable, but comparisons to other communities are meaningless.


yo, this post is pretty spot on, especially about education, national desire to be "technological", close proximity, dense populations, etc. you could also add homogeneity and a cultural history of respecting strategy games ala korean chess and badook.

the one thing i don't agree with you though is the idea of comparing opportunity cost. Due to super-strict labor laws, culture based longevity/hierarchy and a workforce with an absurd number of college graduates, it's extremely hard for a recent college grade to get a job in korea. but i would argue that's not much different from socialist countries like france or germany which have super high unemployment rates amongst those aged 20-30. In America, it's might be easier to get a job (though not right now), but the ingrained social concept of living alone, paying rent, and overall higher expenses kinda dampens the opportunity cost comparison with koera, where living with your parents until marriage is the social norm.

i guess what i'm trying to say is comparing opportunity cost among countries makes no sense, and it would be better served to compare it with the opportunity cost problem a sports star would face.

Listen, you don't know what socialism means (omgizreallybadright?), you don't know about France and you don't know about Germany.

France highest unemployement rate has been around 11% in itrs darkest year. 20 - 30% what the fuck man?

Stop being a Fox News brainwashed zombi and to talk about things you have no ideas about in irrelevant threads. Jesus.


what?

-_- maybe you should breathe a bit first and then re-read what i wrote (hint AGED not RANGED). nor am i attaching any stigma to the word socialist as nothing in my post insinuates some sort of personal distaste for it.

EDIT:

Sure. Sorry but changing a 9% to 20 - 30% to say that a system is unefficient, I call that propaganda. Plus France is not even a socialist country stricto sensu.


erm.. I think you clearly did not re-read what he said
Shine[Kal] #1 fan
d_so
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Korea (South)3262 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-04 10:59:48
April 04 2010 10:30 GMT
#184
a noticeable fact is the high youth unemployment rate in France, compared to similar countries. During the years 1994-1997 it hits a peak (virtually 30 percent of the 15-24 old labor force was unemployed.) After 1998 it declined (20 percent in 2002).
(pages 8-9)
http://www.crest.fr/doctravail/document/2007-33.pdf

Here's a better article, a bit more recent (2006), from the Economist:

But it is the precipitous decline in the employment rate of young men that is the most striking feature of this table: 30 points, as opposed to...2 points in the US. Even if one focusses on the older half, the 20-24 age group, the difference remains striking: only 40% of these young men are employed in France, as compared to roughly 90% in the 30-49 age group.

http://riotsfrance.ssrc.org/Salanie/

manner
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France8073 Posts
April 04 2010 10:33 GMT
#185
Fair enough, apologies.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
ploy
Profile Joined January 2006
United States416 Posts
April 04 2010 10:37 GMT
#186
Owned. I can't stand people who argue without knowing at all what they are talking about (and lack any sort of reading comprehension to boot)
bubblegumbo
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Taiwan1296 Posts
April 04 2010 10:46 GMT
#187
stupid threads like this needs to be deleted
"I honestly think that whoever invented toilet paper is a genius. For man to survive, they need toilet paper!"- Nal_rA
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France8073 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-05 07:21:42
April 04 2010 10:55 GMT
#188
On April 04 2010 19:37 ploy wrote:
Owned. I can't stand people who argue without knowing at all what they are talking about (and lack any sort of reading comprehension to boot)

Look dude, I reacted stupidly, I recognized I was wrong and I apologized publicly, which you don't see often on theses forums, now you are the one being a douchebag.

User was temp banned for this post.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
Creationism
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
China505 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-05 07:12:08
April 04 2010 11:02 GMT
#189
On April 04 2010 19:55 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 04 2010 19:37 ploy wrote:
Owned. I can't stand people who argue without knowing at all what they are talking about (and lack any sort of reading comprehension to boot)

Look dude, I reacted stupidly, I recognized I was wrong and I apologized publicly, which you don't see often on theses forums, now you are the one being a douchebag.

Nope, still you.

User was warned for this post.
The hoi polloi is the plague upon the world.
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France8073 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-05 07:21:20
April 04 2010 11:04 GMT
#190
On April 04 2010 20:02 Creationism wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 04 2010 19:55 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On April 04 2010 19:37 ploy wrote:
Owned. I can't stand people who argue without knowing at all what they are talking about (and lack any sort of reading comprehension to boot)

Look dude, I reacted stupidly, I recognized I was wrong and I apologized publicly, which you don't see often on theses forums, now you are the one being a douchebag.

Nope, still you.

That's very constructive, thanks. Gogogo shitstorm.

User was temp banned for this post.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
jAeHoOn10
Profile Joined February 2010
Korea (South)3 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-05 07:12:39
April 05 2010 06:40 GMT
#191
I think the OP might be a homosexual. Just a theory.

User was banned for this post.
Dear Stork & Bisu, would you please stop SUCKING??!!
JohnColtrane
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Australia4813 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-05 07:12:24
April 05 2010 06:44 GMT
#192
On April 05 2010 15:40 jAeHoOn10 wrote:
I think the OP might be a homosexual. Just a theory.


dont worry if he's not, you can always suck mine

User was warned for this post.
HEY MEYT
Leg[end]
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States241 Posts
April 05 2010 06:51 GMT
#193
Why is this even being discussed? Show me a foreigner who is winning in the proleagues or even A+ on iCCup.
Legends Never Die ;;
jAeHoOn10
Profile Joined February 2010
Korea (South)3 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-05 07:12:55
April 05 2010 06:52 GMT
#194
I think JohnColtrane is a homosexual. Just a theory.

User was banned for this post.
Dear Stork & Bisu, would you please stop SUCKING??!!
Saturnize
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States2473 Posts
April 05 2010 06:54 GMT
#195
Epic thread.
"Time to put the mustard on the hotdog. -_-"
JoeSaddles
Profile Blog Joined March 2004
United States344 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-05 06:56:21
April 05 2010 06:55 GMT
#196
I sort of think the OP makes a few good points but I still think out of the top 1000 players in the world, 999 are korean..

getting lucky in 1 or 2 games means nothing, I beat TheMarine PvT once in 2004 but after that game he proceeded to smack me around the next 4 games in a row, and the koreans today make TheMarine look like a n00b

with the way starcraft works it's possible for a very skilled foreigner to straight up get LUCKY and win a game or two vs ANYONE, but in a Bo5 situation they would have no chance in my opinion.



http://www.iccup.com/starcraft/gamingprofile/SaddleS.html
http://www.iccup.com/starcraft/gamingprofile/SaddleS.html
JoeSaddles
Profile Blog Joined March 2004
United States344 Posts
April 05 2010 06:57 GMT
#197
didn't froz take down boxer a few times when Boxer was considered best in the world? so it is possible but just extremely rare
http://www.iccup.com/starcraft/gamingprofile/SaddleS.html
JoeSaddles
Profile Blog Joined March 2004
United States344 Posts
April 05 2010 07:03 GMT
#198
On April 03 2010 06:40 candlejackisgonn wrote:
what are these "non-korean" strategies you speak of



exactly >_<
http://www.iccup.com/starcraft/gamingprofile/SaddleS.html
EvilTeletubby
Profile Blog Joined January 2004
Baltimore, USA22259 Posts
April 05 2010 07:23 GMT
#199
Great thread, guys.
Moderatorhttp://carbonleaf.yuku.com/topic/408/t/So-I-proposed-at-a-Carbon-Leaf-concert.html ***** RIP Geoff
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