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On April 04 2010 06:03 skypig wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 04:24 Dracid wrote:
Re-read my first paragraph. I'm not talking about professionals, I'm talking about what advantages foreigners have over Korean amateurs.
As for iccup. How do they not have a chance? White belts don't get better by sparring with black belts. They get better by sparring with people near their own level, and work their way up to being black belts. Yeah but even Korean amateurs are "black belts" (or less than black belt but still better than white belt...) because they have a culture that reinforces StarCraft, not to mention they're still playing with better players than foreigners are, and on a more consistent basis. In other words they still have the competitive environment that foreigners lack, thus of course they will continue to do better on ICCup. And yes, white belts get better by sparring with people near their own level...unfortunately there IS no "near level" for foreigners to practice against in order to get better because ALL of the "next levels" of play exist in the exclusive Korean competitive environment, from the worst to the best. And foreigners still don't have access to those "higher levels" of competition. And, as I've been saying before, IF THEY DID have access, then they would get better. I guess what I've been trying to say this whole time is that there should be UNRESTRICTED competition between everyone in StarCraft, and everyone should be able to consistently play with players that are at or above their level. I think by now it's too late because even Korean amateurs probably don't want to mess around helping foreigners get better and improve their play (for multiple reasons). Oh well. Again I admit my title is misleading...perhaps it should be changed to: Foreigners + Unrestricted Competition = Koreans
This is not how the world works. In anything.
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+ Show Spoiler +On April 04 2010 06:03 skypig wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 04:24 Dracid wrote:
Re-read my first paragraph. I'm not talking about professionals, I'm talking about what advantages foreigners have over Korean amateurs.
As for iccup. How do they not have a chance? White belts don't get better by sparring with black belts. They get better by sparring with people near their own level, and work their way up to being black belts. Yeah but even Korean amateurs are "black belts" (or less than black belt but still better than white belt...) because they have a culture that reinforces StarCraft, not to mention they're still playing with better players than foreigners are, and on a more consistent basis. In other words they still have the competitive environment that foreigners lack, thus of course they will continue to do better on ICCup. And yes, white belts get better by sparring with people near their own level...unfortunately there IS no "near level" for foreigners to practice against in order to get better because ALL of the "next levels" of play exist in the exclusive Korean competitive environment, from the worst to the best. And foreigners still don't have access to those "higher levels" of competition. And, as I've been saying before, IF THEY DID have access, then they would get better. I guess what I've been trying to say this whole time is that there should be UNRESTRICTED competition between everyone in StarCraft, and everyone should be able to consistently play with players that are at or above their level. I think by now it's too late because even Korean amateurs probably don't want to mess around helping foreigners get better and improve their play (for multiple reasons). Oh well. Again I admit my title is misleading...perhaps it should be changed to: Foreigners + Unrestricted Competition = Koreans On April 04 2010 04:15 skypig wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 03:47 Dracid wrote:
Here, let me put it simply. Let's assume that Korean pro-gamers are all robots who care little about innovation and all play standard build orders and work on mechanics (Not true, but bear with me). What amazing strategies would foreigners offer that Korean amateurs wouldn't also be thinking of? If you're implying that foreigners are more creative than Koreans who don't play the game for a living, then that's obviously racist. If you're not, then what do foreigners have to offer that Korean amateurs do not? Look, Koreans are obviously the best, right now. Because they have access to a complete, high-level competitive environment with the masters of the game. I'm not debating that. However, keep in mind that playing the game for a JOB (literally) means that you have some restrictions...you are much less likely to try new and risky things because it means your job is at stake if you fail, not to mention you let your team down, suffer humiliation, etc. This is where foreigners have a potential advantage - they're not "locked in" to the commercialized, money-driven trashload of restrictions that KeSPA and all the other StarCraft corporations put in. If foreigners could have the same competitive environment that Koreans do, in order to get their mechanics, game sense, and technical skill up to par, then they would be free to push the limits of creativity and try new and crazy things. I'm not saying Koreans are less creative; I'm saying they're RESTRICTED by the very things that you mentioned - money, their job, etc. is all at stake if they try to be "too creative." Foreigners are not restricted in that way. Therefore, foreigners + no restrictions = more creative play with the potential for winning. Of course, this also applies to Koreans....so you could just as easily say Koreans + no restrictions = more creative play, etc. Except in this case, Koreans are pretty much stuck in the system while foreigners aren't, necessarily. Although maybe foreigners would have to become part of the system in order to experience that competitive environment, although I'm sure there's ways around that, as SC2 may show. Is that so hard to understand? Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 03:47 Dracid wrote:
Also, do you simply not know what iccup is? There were many complaints about people dodging Koreans during TSL2, it's not like the top foreigners don't have opportunities to play Korean players. The less-skilled players get crushed by an established group of better players? Well what the hell do you think is going to happen when they're going up against professionals instead of amateurs? It's like you're arguing that C- players should be able to compete with A players because they're more likely to innovate. Sure, they might be able to cheese a win here or there, but you don't go from C- to A without first going through the ranks inbetween. Sure I know what ICCup is; I play on it. Again, you have no point - people dodging Koreans is like white belts dodging black belts because they know the black belts know more, fight more, and have more experience. If the white belts HAD THE CHANCE to actually train and get better vs. the black belts, then they would improve and eventually fight "on par" with the black belts. Bad example on your part....ICCup is just another example of the consequences of a bad competitive environment; you get a majority of elite players that effectively prevent anyone who's trying to get better from getting much-needed practice.
Look your entire argument is based on the fact that "koreans have a better environment to work in." You say that even korean amateurs at an advantage because they get to play "higher level people".
You know what? The highest level of playing in an environment isn't magically set, it's forged by individuals through dedication and perseverance. Players like Boxer, Nada, Savior, Jaedong, Flash, all set the bar higher. This in turn led to the skill level of everyone else around them going up. That's why we respect the Bonjwas, not because they are technically or statistically the best, but because they were able to raise the standard.
My (korean) parents always said, you can always blame things out of your control for your ineptitude, but in the end, you're the one who failed. Set the standard for those around you, and you will pave the path for the success of future generations. (er, rough translation from korean)
Korean pros started out half starving, dirt poor, lying to their parents, sneaking in games at shady PC rooms, and living off of Ramen noodles. Somehow, I feel that there is no foreigner who has a worse environment than that.
Dedication in itself is a skill. Koreans have much more skill at starcraft than foreigners. There is no reason why all the top foreigners (nony, pj, idra, ret, etc) couldn't get together, and practice 10-12 hours a day with each other. Create their own non-korean proteam and pay from out of their own pockets. Earn the RESPECT of the korean progamers, and then they will be welcomed by korean proteams with open arms. But they won't need to, because all they need is themselves.
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On April 04 2010 07:05 Xenocide_Knight wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 04 2010 06:03 skypig wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 04:24 Dracid wrote:
Re-read my first paragraph. I'm not talking about professionals, I'm talking about what advantages foreigners have over Korean amateurs.
As for iccup. How do they not have a chance? White belts don't get better by sparring with black belts. They get better by sparring with people near their own level, and work their way up to being black belts. Yeah but even Korean amateurs are "black belts" (or less than black belt but still better than white belt...) because they have a culture that reinforces StarCraft, not to mention they're still playing with better players than foreigners are, and on a more consistent basis. In other words they still have the competitive environment that foreigners lack, thus of course they will continue to do better on ICCup. And yes, white belts get better by sparring with people near their own level...unfortunately there IS no "near level" for foreigners to practice against in order to get better because ALL of the "next levels" of play exist in the exclusive Korean competitive environment, from the worst to the best. And foreigners still don't have access to those "higher levels" of competition. And, as I've been saying before, IF THEY DID have access, then they would get better. I guess what I've been trying to say this whole time is that there should be UNRESTRICTED competition between everyone in StarCraft, and everyone should be able to consistently play with players that are at or above their level. I think by now it's too late because even Korean amateurs probably don't want to mess around helping foreigners get better and improve their play (for multiple reasons). Oh well. Again I admit my title is misleading...perhaps it should be changed to: Foreigners + Unrestricted Competition = Koreans On April 04 2010 04:15 skypig wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 03:47 Dracid wrote:
Here, let me put it simply. Let's assume that Korean pro-gamers are all robots who care little about innovation and all play standard build orders and work on mechanics (Not true, but bear with me). What amazing strategies would foreigners offer that Korean amateurs wouldn't also be thinking of? If you're implying that foreigners are more creative than Koreans who don't play the game for a living, then that's obviously racist. If you're not, then what do foreigners have to offer that Korean amateurs do not? Look, Koreans are obviously the best, right now. Because they have access to a complete, high-level competitive environment with the masters of the game. I'm not debating that. However, keep in mind that playing the game for a JOB (literally) means that you have some restrictions...you are much less likely to try new and risky things because it means your job is at stake if you fail, not to mention you let your team down, suffer humiliation, etc. This is where foreigners have a potential advantage - they're not "locked in" to the commercialized, money-driven trashload of restrictions that KeSPA and all the other StarCraft corporations put in. If foreigners could have the same competitive environment that Koreans do, in order to get their mechanics, game sense, and technical skill up to par, then they would be free to push the limits of creativity and try new and crazy things. I'm not saying Koreans are less creative; I'm saying they're RESTRICTED by the very things that you mentioned - money, their job, etc. is all at stake if they try to be "too creative." Foreigners are not restricted in that way. Therefore, foreigners + no restrictions = more creative play with the potential for winning. Of course, this also applies to Koreans....so you could just as easily say Koreans + no restrictions = more creative play, etc. Except in this case, Koreans are pretty much stuck in the system while foreigners aren't, necessarily. Although maybe foreigners would have to become part of the system in order to experience that competitive environment, although I'm sure there's ways around that, as SC2 may show. Is that so hard to understand? Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 03:47 Dracid wrote:
Also, do you simply not know what iccup is? There were many complaints about people dodging Koreans during TSL2, it's not like the top foreigners don't have opportunities to play Korean players. The less-skilled players get crushed by an established group of better players? Well what the hell do you think is going to happen when they're going up against professionals instead of amateurs? It's like you're arguing that C- players should be able to compete with A players because they're more likely to innovate. Sure, they might be able to cheese a win here or there, but you don't go from C- to A without first going through the ranks inbetween. Sure I know what ICCup is; I play on it. Again, you have no point - people dodging Koreans is like white belts dodging black belts because they know the black belts know more, fight more, and have more experience. If the white belts HAD THE CHANCE to actually train and get better vs. the black belts, then they would improve and eventually fight "on par" with the black belts. Bad example on your part....ICCup is just another example of the consequences of a bad competitive environment; you get a majority of elite players that effectively prevent anyone who's trying to get better from getting much-needed practice. Look your entire argument is based on the fact that "koreans have a better environment to work in." You say that even korean amateurs at an advantage because they get to play "higher level people". You know what? The highest level of playing in an environment isn't magically set, it's forged by individuals through dedication and perseverance. Players like Boxer, Nada, Savior, Jaedong, Flash, all set the bar higher. This in turn led to the skill level of everyone else around them going up. That's why we respect the Bonjwas, not because they are technically or statistically the best, but because they were able to raise the standard. My (korean) parents always said, you can always blame things out of your control for your ineptitude, but in the end, you're the one who failed. Set the standard for those around you, and you will pave the path for the success of future generations. (er, rough translation from korean) Korean pros started out half starving, dirt poor, lying to their parents, sneaking in games at shady PC rooms, and living off of Ramen noodles. Somehow, I feel that there is no foreigner who has a worse environment than that. Dedication in itself is a skill. Koreans have much more skill at starcraft than foreigners. There is no reason why all the top foreigners (nony, pj, idra, ret, etc) couldn't get together, and practice 10-12 hours a day with each other. Create their own non-korean proteam and pay from out of their own pockets. Earn the RESPECT of the korean progamers, and then they will be welcomed by korean proteams with open arms. But they won't need to, because all they need is themselves.
Amen to this. Finally someone who makes sense.
Case in point:
Boxer's tour of progamer house
Don't let the title of the video fool you. This is before they got the sponsorship from SKT.
Plus Team House
This house is even worse. There's only 5 guys and 2 rooms.
Bonus: Jaedong and Backho's first appearance
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Xenocide's post is righteous!
You can't "blame" the koreans for the large skill gap, the only "blame" (if blame is even a remotely proper word here) is to be put on the foreign community themselves. There is no reason why foreigners can't get together and make their own even more ultra competitive SL and create even greater players than the koreans, but they just don't. Another good point someone else made was the Flash build, Bisu build, Boxer's creativity, how July revolutionized the zerg play, the list goes on and on were all korean inventions
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On April 04 2010 07:05 Xenocide_Knight wrote:
Look your entire argument is based on the fact that "koreans have a better environment to work in." You say that even korean amateurs at an advantage because they get to play "higher level people".
You know what? The highest level of playing in an environment isn't magically set, it's forged by individuals through dedication and perseverance. Players like Boxer, Nada, Savior, Jaedong, Flash, all set the bar higher. This in turn led to the skill level of everyone else around them going up. That's why we respect the Bonjwas, not because they are technically or statistically the best, but because they were able to raise the standard.
My (korean) parents always said, you can always blame things out of your control for your ineptitude, but in the end, you're the one who failed. Set the standard for those around you, and you will pave the path for the success of future generations. (er, rough translation from korean)
Korean pros started out half starving, dirt poor, lying to their parents, sneaking in games at shady PC rooms, and living off of Ramen noodles. Somehow, I feel that there is no foreigner who has a worse environment than that.
Dedication in itself is a skill. Koreans have much more skill at starcraft than foreigners. There is no reason why all the top foreigners (nony, pj, idra, ret, etc) couldn't get together, and practice 10-12 hours a day with each other. Create their own non-korean proteam and pay from out of their own pockets. Earn the RESPECT of the korean progamers, and then they will be welcomed by korean proteams with open arms. But they won't need to, because all they need is themselves.
Alright...I'll accept that. I guess I'm not thinking about the fact that the Koreans worked really, really hard to get to where they are, and there's certainly nothing wrong with that. Perhaps I was a bit hasty in just looking at the situation from a purely competitive standpoint - good post.
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This has to be one of the dumbest threads I've read on TL in a while... -_-
The worst part is I actually wasted my life reading every word of it..
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On April 04 2010 08:01 HeartOfTofu wrote:
This has to be one of the dumbest threads I've read on TL in a while... -_-
The worst part is I actually wasted my life reading every word of it..
I think threads like these are good every once in a while. Lets the people vent for a bit. This thread should be closed soon, though, before it goes out of control.
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No matter how u slice it, korean pro gamers just have more playing time. It's their job to play every day for many more hours than foreigner gamers.
Korean pro gamers literally have no life, they are isolated and locked into playing starcraft all day and their downtime is mostly events.
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8751 Posts
On April 04 2010 07:05 Xenocide_Knight wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 04 2010 06:03 skypig wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 04:24 Dracid wrote:
Re-read my first paragraph. I'm not talking about professionals, I'm talking about what advantages foreigners have over Korean amateurs.
As for iccup. How do they not have a chance? White belts don't get better by sparring with black belts. They get better by sparring with people near their own level, and work their way up to being black belts. Yeah but even Korean amateurs are "black belts" (or less than black belt but still better than white belt...) because they have a culture that reinforces StarCraft, not to mention they're still playing with better players than foreigners are, and on a more consistent basis. In other words they still have the competitive environment that foreigners lack, thus of course they will continue to do better on ICCup. And yes, white belts get better by sparring with people near their own level...unfortunately there IS no "near level" for foreigners to practice against in order to get better because ALL of the "next levels" of play exist in the exclusive Korean competitive environment, from the worst to the best. And foreigners still don't have access to those "higher levels" of competition. And, as I've been saying before, IF THEY DID have access, then they would get better. I guess what I've been trying to say this whole time is that there should be UNRESTRICTED competition between everyone in StarCraft, and everyone should be able to consistently play with players that are at or above their level. I think by now it's too late because even Korean amateurs probably don't want to mess around helping foreigners get better and improve their play (for multiple reasons). Oh well. Again I admit my title is misleading...perhaps it should be changed to: Foreigners + Unrestricted Competition = Koreans On April 04 2010 04:15 skypig wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 03:47 Dracid wrote:
Here, let me put it simply. Let's assume that Korean pro-gamers are all robots who care little about innovation and all play standard build orders and work on mechanics (Not true, but bear with me). What amazing strategies would foreigners offer that Korean amateurs wouldn't also be thinking of? If you're implying that foreigners are more creative than Koreans who don't play the game for a living, then that's obviously racist. If you're not, then what do foreigners have to offer that Korean amateurs do not? Look, Koreans are obviously the best, right now. Because they have access to a complete, high-level competitive environment with the masters of the game. I'm not debating that. However, keep in mind that playing the game for a JOB (literally) means that you have some restrictions...you are much less likely to try new and risky things because it means your job is at stake if you fail, not to mention you let your team down, suffer humiliation, etc. This is where foreigners have a potential advantage - they're not "locked in" to the commercialized, money-driven trashload of restrictions that KeSPA and all the other StarCraft corporations put in. If foreigners could have the same competitive environment that Koreans do, in order to get their mechanics, game sense, and technical skill up to par, then they would be free to push the limits of creativity and try new and crazy things. I'm not saying Koreans are less creative; I'm saying they're RESTRICTED by the very things that you mentioned - money, their job, etc. is all at stake if they try to be "too creative." Foreigners are not restricted in that way. Therefore, foreigners + no restrictions = more creative play with the potential for winning. Of course, this also applies to Koreans....so you could just as easily say Koreans + no restrictions = more creative play, etc. Except in this case, Koreans are pretty much stuck in the system while foreigners aren't, necessarily. Although maybe foreigners would have to become part of the system in order to experience that competitive environment, although I'm sure there's ways around that, as SC2 may show. Is that so hard to understand? Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 03:47 Dracid wrote:
Also, do you simply not know what iccup is? There were many complaints about people dodging Koreans during TSL2, it's not like the top foreigners don't have opportunities to play Korean players. The less-skilled players get crushed by an established group of better players? Well what the hell do you think is going to happen when they're going up against professionals instead of amateurs? It's like you're arguing that C- players should be able to compete with A players because they're more likely to innovate. Sure, they might be able to cheese a win here or there, but you don't go from C- to A without first going through the ranks inbetween. Sure I know what ICCup is; I play on it. Again, you have no point - people dodging Koreans is like white belts dodging black belts because they know the black belts know more, fight more, and have more experience. If the white belts HAD THE CHANCE to actually train and get better vs. the black belts, then they would improve and eventually fight "on par" with the black belts. Bad example on your part....ICCup is just another example of the consequences of a bad competitive environment; you get a majority of elite players that effectively prevent anyone who's trying to get better from getting much-needed practice. Look your entire argument is based on the fact that "koreans have a better environment to work in." You say that even korean amateurs at an advantage because they get to play "higher level people". You know what? The highest level of playing in an environment isn't magically set, it's forged by individuals through dedication and perseverance. Players like Boxer, Nada, Savior, Jaedong, Flash, all set the bar higher. This in turn led to the skill level of everyone else around them going up. That's why we respect the Bonjwas, not because they are technically or statistically the best, but because they were able to raise the standard. My (korean) parents always said, you can always blame things out of your control for your ineptitude, but in the end, you're the one who failed. Set the standard for those around you, and you will pave the path for the success of future generations. (er, rough translation from korean) Korean pros started out half starving, dirt poor, lying to their parents, sneaking in games at shady PC rooms, and living off of Ramen noodles. Somehow, I feel that there is no foreigner who has a worse environment than that. Dedication in itself is a skill. Koreans have much more skill at starcraft than foreigners. There is no reason why all the top foreigners (nony, pj, idra, ret, etc) couldn't get together, and practice 10-12 hours a day with each other. Create their own non-korean proteam and pay from out of their own pockets. Earn the RESPECT of the korean progamers, and then they will be welcomed by korean proteams with open arms. But they won't need to, because all they need is themselves.
The opportunity cost for most American and European players is much higher than it was for those first Korean players. So while the Koreans showed great dedication, in order for Americans and Europeans to follow the same route, they'd have to have the same dedication AND a lot more sacrifice.
That advice sucks. It's general advice that could be absolutely incorrect in many situations. Better to look at the evidence, use reasoning, and draw a conclusion about the way it is for the particular situation.
There isn't any reasonable way to glorify the fact that Korea has the only community that truly cares about being good at StarCraft. We can respect what they've achieved but when we make comparisons to other communities, it never becomes irrelevant to say "well nobody else cares."
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The opportunity cost for Americans and Europeans are indeed higher, but the reason it is higher is partly due to culture, which is what Xenocide_Knight and others alluded to. Koreans care a lot about winning in these kinds of set competitions and Starcraft happens to be one of the set competitions that they've attached themselves to. They are willing, generally, to train themselves much more, both for passion and for the fact that it is scene as a legitimate career in Korea.
It is, of course, also accurate to point out that this attachment makes a huge difference. In other games Koreans are not nearly as dominant. In DOTA, for example (the other game GG.net covers aside from SC and WC 3), they have no presence at all. I'm sure if we were to ask, "why does Korean DOTA suck so much," the answer would not devolve to this level of controversy, but would simply suffice at "because the Korean pro DOTA scene isn't very big." It is because SC is seen as a Korean vs. non-Korean scene that there is such debate, because for a small country to be so peerless in a widely popular game is unusual.
Still, I think Xenocide_Knight brings up a good point in describing how the Korean pro scene arose. It is not as if the SC pro scene could not have arisen anywhere else. Certainly a group of Americans or Europeans could've taken the game seriously enough to have produced a Boxer, and to have organized an awesome scene, like TL.net is today. This then brings up the question of why they did not do so - American and European gaming were in a better shape, at least financially, to have given birth to serious SC e-sports than Korean gaming, yet it was Korea that made the jump.
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I think the OP is trying to get at how robotic the Koreans are. They do the same thing over and over again, never *any* deviation. Exact same responses, exact same set of builds. However, they do this because it works. Progamers probably have a much more in depth knowledge of the builds. When facing iCCup Koreans though, doing an effective, unorthodox strategy will put you at a significant edge against them. Just doesn't always work because they simply have superior mechanics.
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Oh, another one of those "Koreans are gods" threads.
They are good, because they play this game for a living. As far as I know there are few non-Korean players playing full time who do pretty well in Warcraft 3 tournaments.
As for strategy and thinking, I would say that some progamers and good players play smart with nice builds and brilliant game sense, while others seem to behave like robots or do retarded builds that seem to make no sense at all.
In general, the level on which we understand the game is still very, very low; ok we have some meta strategy shifts due to build orders, but there is really no technical in depth analysis including timings, variants and such simple variables as number of workers. Most build orders are pretty general and usually end with a simple advice to adjust to the opponents actions.
Unfortunately this is pretty useless, as for a 10 year old game one could expect a very good econometric model, that would allow to test build vs build scenarios with such factors as number of workers, timing, distance from bases, input errors (progamers are like robots, but dont play perfect), micro, scouting etc.
Say "what would happen if I did 1 more drone at 50 population" or "what happens if I kill 8 marines with muta harass". Of course after playing 54364236523453 practice games you can probably learn it, but sometimes I think that many progamers dont!
Also, when it comes to starcraft and creativity - apart from few players like Boxer and Nal_Ra, there wasnt that much innovation. Of course people will argue that "bisu created a genius build - aka started using corsairs.." or that "gorush introduced defilers" - but it's more like playing the game as if it is supposed to be played. Seriously, if blizzard didnt want us to use defilers, they wouldnt put them into the game. And fast expanding was described in the first battle reports... it wasnt that good on Lost temple though.
In general, the meta analysis of the game is on very low level; the last tool to allow it was made in like 2004 I think - unfortunately I dont remember the name; it was a form of a calculator that allowed you to input information about build, and would give you a timing and (I think) number of minerals collected in perfect conditions.
As for any other starcraft tools - koreans have designed NONE. All the good tools were made by "foreigners" (what a retarded term, non-Koreans is much better) including bnet emulator (e.g. iccup), anti hack, MAP EDITORS!!!!, map protectors; even map hack.
No offense, but if there are so many Koreans playing the game, why didnt they figure out any tool for the game? They have leagues shown on TV and they dont even use this hack which allows higher resolution - they could pay the author to perfect the program...
All the mapmaking tricks like netural buildings were known for 5+ years, but only caught by the Korean mapmakers 2-3 years ago I think (I suppose that the general level of English in Korea has improved dramatically over the last few years so the tools were translated and learned by mapmakers, who probably never followed such websites as staredit.net; actually this leads to another question - in the past we had so many threads stating that Koreans study so hard, yet it's impossible to talk to any of them in English; while you can chat with people from all those weird countries like France etc. how come?). Not to mention the map designs, which still are pretty lame.
btw. Idra is probably not the best non Korean player. He is considered best only by Americans, who like him, since he is American. It's like Polish people being Draco's fanboys; Germans standing behind Koll etc.
We need to understand that many talented players simply did not want/have the chance to go to Korea and practice there. Personally I think that Mondragon had the biggest potential, because he has decent mechanics and understanding of the game. He never went to Korea to practice for many hours a day though, so we will never know.
The only 2 non Kor players I know who prepared special builds vs selected opponents are Nony and Mistrzzz; other players seem to play standard.
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8751 Posts
On April 04 2010 09:22 Azarkon wrote:
The opportunity cost for Americans and Europeans are indeed higher, but the reason it is higher is partly due to culture, which is what Xenocide_Knight and others alluded to. Koreans care a lot about winning in these kinds of set competitions and Starcraft happens to be one of the set competitions that they've attached themselves to. They are willing, generally, to train themselves much more, both for passion and for the fact that it is scene as a legitimate career in Korea.
I don't see any reason, and you haven't provided one, why cultural consideration is a special explanation of the difference in opportunity cost. No matter what is determining the different opportunity cost, it works the same. So I don't see my point about sacrifice as compromised at all.
On April 04 2010 09:22 Azarkon wrote:
It is, of course, also accurate to point out that this attachment makes a huge difference. In other games Koreans are not nearly as dominant. In DOTA, for example (the other game GG.net covers aside from SC and WC 3), they have no presence at all. I'm sure if we were to ask, "why does Korean DOTA suck so much," the answer would not devolve to this level of controversy, but would simply suffice at "because the Korean pro DOTA scene isn't very big." It is because SC is seen as a Korean vs. non-Korean scene that there is such debate, because for a small country to be so peerless in a widely popular game is unusual.
I fail to see why this is interesting. Yeah, there is a huge difference between the entire world being good at something except for one country and the entire world being bad at something except for one country. How is this relevant? I guess you want to make it relevant by saying SC is popular worldwide. But we aren't talking about SC the game. We are talking about SC the e-sport. Korea invented SC the e-sport and it didn't catch on anywhere else. SC the e-sport is not popular worldwide and TL.net is not significant enough counter-evidence to that statement.
On April 04 2010 09:22 Azarkon wrote:
Still, I think Xenocide_Knight brings up a good point in describing how the Korean pro scene arose. It is not as if the SC pro scene could not have arisen anywhere else. Certainly a group of Americans or Europeans could've taken the game seriously enough to have produced a Boxer, and to have organized an awesome scene, like TL.net is today. This then brings up the question of why they did not do so - American and European gaming were in a better shape, at least financially, to have given birth to serious SC e-sports than Korean gaming, yet it was Korea that made the jump.
I really doubt that American and European investors were in better shape to throw money at e-sports. That would have to mean that they have no better idea for investing their money. But there were probably a million better ideas in their countries.
I don't know the exact state of South Korea and its economy when SC was rising up, but I would guess it's something like this: SC sweeps the nation -- it's what all the kids are doing. The country is officially trying to be more technologically advanced as a way to secure a good economy in the future -- better internet, pc bangs everywhere, huge electronics industry, etc. Geographically small country, dense population in Seoul makes live competitions much more feasible and promotes the unity of culture and ideas. These things put together made it possible for tournaments and leagues to actually be worthwhile investments. Extremely competitive education system creates an abundance of youths who can see that they're not headed for some great professional job. The chance that these kids are the ones playing a lot of SC is pretty high. Tournaments and leagues gave kids incentive to go all-in with becoming progamers.
In other countries, you have a bunch of problems: investors have other opportunities, costs more because of travel costs (or you accept that people aren't going to travel and the number of relevant people gets cut), less general interest in the game which reduces the number of potential spectators, the potential progamers have better opportunities.
This analysis is really vague because I don't know the history that well and I don't know much about economics. But it seems you are thinking about it intuitively and, since I don't have a lot of solid facts and stats to back up my view, I'll admit that I'm thinking about it intuitively too. But if there is any truth to the way I put it, then a lot of happenstance and convergence of beneficial circumstances helped Korea get their e-sports scene.
So the main point that I'm sticking to in this thread is this: Korea worked hard as hell to get their SC scene as amazing as it is now, and that's admirable, but comparisons to other communities are meaningless.
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On April 04 2010 09:26 Archaic wrote:
I think the OP is trying to get at how robotic the Koreans are. They do the same thing over and over again, never *any* deviation. Exact same responses, exact same set of builds. However, they do this because it works. Progamers probably have a much more in depth knowledge of the builds. When facing iCCup Koreans though, doing an effective, unorthodox strategy will put you at a significant edge against them. Just doesn't always work because they simply have superior mechanics.
calling korean starcraft robotic just makes no sense and i don't understand how anyone gets to this conclusion. does following a standard build order in chess make you robotic? absolutely-fucking-not, and just as there are thousands of openings/responses for the first 15-25 moves in chess, so too are there are optimized build orders in starcraft for the first 5-8 minutes of the game. Creativity is there, it's just that it must express itself within the constructs of optimized builds, and when the midgame begins the players are able to shed the strict rules of early game and fully express their creativity. Calling foreinger starcraft "creative" for not following a build is like complimenting a noob opening with king's pawn --> queen d5 and hoping for black to play retarded with them.
Nor have these builds stagnated, but new ones are being made all the time. The difference is that in the korean arena, these builds are designed and tested with the idea of succeeding in the highest level of play, whereas in the foreign scene they're just doing whatever they want cuz they don't have to face the highest level of compeition. Let's go back to chess. If I knew i was gonna play scrubs all day long i'd open with the Danish or center-counter every game because it's hliarious and lots of people don't know what to do against it. But if i''m playing someone good there's no way in hell i'd use it unless it was a speed game and it was like game6 of a 10 game series, just to throw him off. You just don't consistently open with shitty build orders if you're playing good players, no matter what the game.
and it's not like they don't understand the motive or the theory behind their openings either. that's something the foreigners are guilty of, copying a build order and just hoping to execute it. Just as chess players understand why they choose an opening or a variation of such and how it matches their gamestyle, so too do these players understand why they open the way they do and what their objective is with said opening. so yah, proxy hatch is super cool and super creative yo! foreigners do it all the time! but when koreans do it ala zero, he does it with a clear understanding of why it'll work, how it fits the map and how its variance from the standard will give him x advantages while exposing Y weaknesses.
so yeah. how is korean starcraft robotic again?
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On April 04 2010 10:01 Liquid`NonY wrote:
I don't know the exact state of South Korea and its economy when SC was rising up, but I would guess it's something like this: SC sweeps the nation -- it's what all the kids are doing. The country is officially trying to be more technologically advanced as a way to secure a good economy in the future -- better internet, pc bangs everywhere, huge electronics industry, etc. Geographically small country, dense population in Seoul makes live competitions much more feasible and promotes the unity of culture and ideas. These things put together made it possible for tournaments and leagues to actually be worthwhile investments. Extremely competitive education system creates an abundance of youths who can see that they're not headed for some great professional job. The chance that these kids are the ones playing a lot of SC is pretty high. Tournaments and leagues gave kids incentive to go all-in with becoming progamers.
In other countries, you have a bunch of problems: investors have other opportunities, costs more because of travel costs (or you accept that people aren't going to travel and the number of relevant people gets cut), less general interest in the game which reduces the number of potential spectators, the potential progamers have better opportunities.
This analysis is really vague because I don't know the history that well and I don't know much about economics. But it seems you are thinking about it intuitively and, since I don't have a lot of solid facts and stats to back up my view, I'll admit that I'm thinking about it intuitively too. But if there is any truth to the way I put it, then a lot of happenstance and convergence of beneficial circumstances helped Korea get their e-sports scene.
So the main point that I'm sticking to in this thread is this: Korea worked hard as hell to get their SC scene as amazing as it is now, and that's admirable, but comparisons to other communities are meaningless.
yo, this post is pretty spot on, especially about education, national desire to be "technological", close proximity, dense populations, etc. you could also add homogeneity and a cultural history of respecting strategy games ala korean chess and badook.
the one thing i don't agree with you though is the idea of comparing opportunity cost. Due to super-strict labor laws, culture based longevity/hierarchy and a workforce with an absurd number of college graduates, it's extremely hard for a recent college grade to get a job in korea. but i would argue that's not much different from socialist countries like france or germany which have super high unemployment rates amongst those aged 20-30. In America, it's might be easier to get a job (though not right now), but the ingrained social concept of living alone, paying rent, and overall higher expenses kinda dampens the opportunity cost comparison with koera, where living with your parents until marriage is the social norm.
i guess what i'm trying to say is comparing opportunity cost among countries makes no sense, and it would be better served to compare it with the opportunity cost problem a sports star would face.
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On April 04 2010 09:43 Green_Ranger wrote:
Also, when it comes to starcraft and creativity - apart from few players like Boxer and Nal_Ra, there wasnt that much innovation. Of course people will argue that "bisu created a genius build - aka started using corsairs.." or that "gorush introduced defilers" - but it's more like playing the game as if it is supposed to be played. Seriously, if blizzard didnt want us to use defilers, they wouldnt put them into the game. And fast expanding was described in the first battle reports... it wasnt that good on Lost temple though.
Whaat the fuck are you talking about, innovation happens all the time in BW, its just a lot more subtle than what Nal_ra or Boxer did. Bisu didn't invent fast expand, in fact Protosses fast expanded whenever they could get away with it. Bisu's true innovation and legacy was the modern use of the corsair. Gorush didn't introduce defilers, he just merely used it a lot more than other players of his time.
Idra is probably not the best non Korean player. He is considered best only by Americans, who like him, since he is American. It's like Polish people being Draco's fanboys; Germans standing behind Koll etc
I think only blind fanboys, people who don't know the game, and idiots think that Idra is not the best non Korean BW player, pretty much everyone in TL agrees that Idra is the top foreigner.
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On April 04 2010 10:39 d_so wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 10:01 Liquid`NonY wrote:
I don't know the exact state of South Korea and its economy when SC was rising up, but I would guess it's something like this: SC sweeps the nation -- it's what all the kids are doing. The country is officially trying to be more technologically advanced as a way to secure a good economy in the future -- better internet, pc bangs everywhere, huge electronics industry, etc. Geographically small country, dense population in Seoul makes live competitions much more feasible and promotes the unity of culture and ideas. These things put together made it possible for tournaments and leagues to actually be worthwhile investments. Extremely competitive education system creates an abundance of youths who can see that they're not headed for some great professional job. The chance that these kids are the ones playing a lot of SC is pretty high. Tournaments and leagues gave kids incentive to go all-in with becoming progamers.
In other countries, you have a bunch of problems: investors have other opportunities, costs more because of travel costs (or you accept that people aren't going to travel and the number of relevant people gets cut), less general interest in the game which reduces the number of potential spectators, the potential progamers have better opportunities.
This analysis is really vague because I don't know the history that well and I don't know much about economics. But it seems you are thinking about it intuitively and, since I don't have a lot of solid facts and stats to back up my view, I'll admit that I'm thinking about it intuitively too. But if there is any truth to the way I put it, then a lot of happenstance and convergence of beneficial circumstances helped Korea get their e-sports scene.
So the main point that I'm sticking to in this thread is this: Korea worked hard as hell to get their SC scene as amazing as it is now, and that's admirable, but comparisons to other communities are meaningless. yo, this post is pretty spot on, especially about education, national desire to be "technological", close proximity, dense populations, etc. you could also add homogeneity and a cultural history of respecting strategy games ala korean chess and badook. the one thing i don't agree with you though is the idea of comparing opportunity cost. Due to super-strict labor laws, culture based longevity/hierarchy and a workforce with an absurd number of college graduates, it's extremely hard for a recent college grade to get a job in korea. but i would argue that's not much different from socialist countries like france or germany which have super high unemployment rates amongst those aged 20-30. In America, it's might be easier to get a job (though not right now), but the ingrained social concept of living alone, paying rent, and overall higher expenses kinda dampens the opportunity cost comparison with koera, where living with your parents until marriage is the social norm. i guess what i'm trying to say is comparing opportunity cost among countries makes no sense, and it would be better served to compare it with the opportunity cost problem a sports star would face.
Listen, you don't know what socialism means (omgizreallybadright?), you don't know about France and you don't know about Germany. Situation in France right now is way better than situation in England (I'm leaving London cuz it's impossible to make a living there), and our healthcare is less expensive than the American one and wayyyyy more efficient.
France highest unemployement rate has been around 11% in its darkest year. 20 - 30% what the fuck man?
Stop being a Fox News brainwashed zombi and to talk about things you have no ideas about in irrelevant threads. Jesus.
EDIT: Ok, doens't make any sense. Sorry about that.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On April 04 2010 18:50 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 10:39 d_so wrote:On April 04 2010 10:01 Liquid`NonY wrote:
I don't know the exact state of South Korea and its economy when SC was rising up, but I would guess it's something like this: SC sweeps the nation -- it's what all the kids are doing. The country is officially trying to be more technologically advanced as a way to secure a good economy in the future -- better internet, pc bangs everywhere, huge electronics industry, etc. Geographically small country, dense population in Seoul makes live competitions much more feasible and promotes the unity of culture and ideas. These things put together made it possible for tournaments and leagues to actually be worthwhile investments. Extremely competitive education system creates an abundance of youths who can see that they're not headed for some great professional job. The chance that these kids are the ones playing a lot of SC is pretty high. Tournaments and leagues gave kids incentive to go all-in with becoming progamers.
In other countries, you have a bunch of problems: investors have other opportunities, costs more because of travel costs (or you accept that people aren't going to travel and the number of relevant people gets cut), less general interest in the game which reduces the number of potential spectators, the potential progamers have better opportunities.
This analysis is really vague because I don't know the history that well and I don't know much about economics. But it seems you are thinking about it intuitively and, since I don't have a lot of solid facts and stats to back up my view, I'll admit that I'm thinking about it intuitively too. But if there is any truth to the way I put it, then a lot of happenstance and convergence of beneficial circumstances helped Korea get their e-sports scene.
So the main point that I'm sticking to in this thread is this: Korea worked hard as hell to get their SC scene as amazing as it is now, and that's admirable, but comparisons to other communities are meaningless. yo, this post is pretty spot on, especially about education, national desire to be "technological", close proximity, dense populations, etc. you could also add homogeneity and a cultural history of respecting strategy games ala korean chess and badook. the one thing i don't agree with you though is the idea of comparing opportunity cost. Due to super-strict labor laws, culture based longevity/hierarchy and a workforce with an absurd number of college graduates, it's extremely hard for a recent college grade to get a job in korea. but i would argue that's not much different from socialist countries like france or germany which have super high unemployment rates amongst those aged 20-30. In America, it's might be easier to get a job (though not right now), but the ingrained social concept of living alone, paying rent, and overall higher expenses kinda dampens the opportunity cost comparison with koera, where living with your parents until marriage is the social norm. i guess what i'm trying to say is comparing opportunity cost among countries makes no sense, and it would be better served to compare it with the opportunity cost problem a sports star would face. Listen, you don't know what socialism means (omgizreallybadright?), you don't know about France and you don't know about Germany. France highest unemployement rate has been around 11% in itrs darkest year. 20 - 30% what the fuck man? Stop being a Fox News brainwashed zombi and to talk about things you have no ideas about in irrelevant threads. Jesus.
what?
-_- maybe you should breathe a bit first and then re-read what i wrote (hint AGED not RANGED). nor am i attaching any stigma to the word socialist as nothing in my post insinuates some sort of personal distaste for it.
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On April 04 2010 18:52 d_so wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 18:50 Biff The Understudy wrote:On April 04 2010 10:39 d_so wrote:On April 04 2010 10:01 Liquid`NonY wrote:
I don't know the exact state of South Korea and its economy when SC was rising up, but I would guess it's something like this: SC sweeps the nation -- it's what all the kids are doing. The country is officially trying to be more technologically advanced as a way to secure a good economy in the future -- better internet, pc bangs everywhere, huge electronics industry, etc. Geographically small country, dense population in Seoul makes live competitions much more feasible and promotes the unity of culture and ideas. These things put together made it possible for tournaments and leagues to actually be worthwhile investments. Extremely competitive education system creates an abundance of youths who can see that they're not headed for some great professional job. The chance that these kids are the ones playing a lot of SC is pretty high. Tournaments and leagues gave kids incentive to go all-in with becoming progamers.
In other countries, you have a bunch of problems: investors have other opportunities, costs more because of travel costs (or you accept that people aren't going to travel and the number of relevant people gets cut), less general interest in the game which reduces the number of potential spectators, the potential progamers have better opportunities.
This analysis is really vague because I don't know the history that well and I don't know much about economics. But it seems you are thinking about it intuitively and, since I don't have a lot of solid facts and stats to back up my view, I'll admit that I'm thinking about it intuitively too. But if there is any truth to the way I put it, then a lot of happenstance and convergence of beneficial circumstances helped Korea get their e-sports scene.
So the main point that I'm sticking to in this thread is this: Korea worked hard as hell to get their SC scene as amazing as it is now, and that's admirable, but comparisons to other communities are meaningless. yo, this post is pretty spot on, especially about education, national desire to be "technological", close proximity, dense populations, etc. you could also add homogeneity and a cultural history of respecting strategy games ala korean chess and badook. the one thing i don't agree with you though is the idea of comparing opportunity cost. Due to super-strict labor laws, culture based longevity/hierarchy and a workforce with an absurd number of college graduates, it's extremely hard for a recent college grade to get a job in korea. but i would argue that's not much different from socialist countries like france or germany which have super high unemployment rates amongst those aged 20-30. In America, it's might be easier to get a job (though not right now), but the ingrained social concept of living alone, paying rent, and overall higher expenses kinda dampens the opportunity cost comparison with koera, where living with your parents until marriage is the social norm. i guess what i'm trying to say is comparing opportunity cost among countries makes no sense, and it would be better served to compare it with the opportunity cost problem a sports star would face. Listen, you don't know what socialism means (omgizreallybadright?), you don't know about France and you don't know about Germany. France highest unemployement rate has been around 11% in itrs darkest year. 20 - 30% what the fuck man? Stop being a Fox News brainwashed zombi and to talk about things you have no ideas about in irrelevant threads. Jesus. what? -_- maybe you should breathe a bit first and then re-read what i wrote (hint AGED not RANGED). nor am i attaching any stigma to the word socialist as nothing in my post insinuates some sort of personal distaste for it.
EDIT:
Me being a douche.
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EPT
