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pyrogenetix
China5098 Posts
the difference is that these players play it as their "job". they get paid for this shit. if you suck then you can go home. so no, foreigners that just practice now and then in their spare time while still having a life is not gonna cut it at all vs the koreans. it's just a totally different league. | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On April 03 2010 21:29 pyrogenetix wrote: you do realize that the koreans just dick around at foreigner events yea? no one is fucking losing sleep for that shit. the difference is that these players play it as their "job". they get paid for this shit. if you suck then you can go home. so no, foreigners that just practice now and then in their spare time while still having a life is not gonna cut it at all vs the koreans. it's just a totally different league. its not that they dick around, they dont prepare and the playing conditions are usually less than ideal but once theyre in the game its not like haha this guys white i dont care if i lose. but they drop games because foreigners are strategically worse. not better. you never have perfect scouting, in some matchups its near impossible to scout beyond a certain point early game. this means that alot of your strategic decisions are based on intuition, reading incomplete information, that kind of thing. but foreigners dont play optimally, most of them dont even play intelligently. that makes them absolutely harder to read, but even more so for players who are used to playing amongst professionals. game sense gets calibrated in a way, and playing foreigners throws that off. that and the fact that foreigners have nothing to lose so theyre entirely willing to do ridiculous allins, which boil the game down to scouting or guessing and will work no matter the skill differential if they manage to catch them off guard. | ||
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UFO
582 Posts
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UFO
582 Posts
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InFiNitY[pG]
Germany3474 Posts
On April :10 Dracid wrote: It's funny because even in his theoretical situation the foreigners would still get stomped. http://www.iccup.com/starcraft/ladder/1x1.html Foreigners are free to play against Koreans, although there is a time difference. So why aren't their superior strategies winning? If foreigners can't beat Korean amateurs, what makes you think they can they beat Korean pros? Sure, a few of the top accounts might belong to pro teams, but then you click page 2... and page 3... etc. etc. because in sc1, being the better player mechanically will make you beat almost any strategy from a mechanically worse player. Most of these high-ranked amateur koreans only have a tiny number of builds that they execute perfectly in every matchup, and those standard strategies are (after 12 years) so good, that there are close to no ways to effectively counter them. In certain matchups (pvt for example) you can abuse certain safe plays by playing so greedy that his mechanical edge will not be enough for him to beat you if are a decent player, but this is an exception. up to maybe 8 years ago, beating koreans by being outsmarting them was much much easier. If you ask any player that was on top of the foreign scene back in 2000-2002, they will confirm that they managed to beat korean progamers on a regular basis. It's hard to predict how long foreigners will be able to keep up in sc2 because of too many unknown factors, I expect some foreigners to do very well against the koreans early on, just like in sc1 people like grrr, elky, Slayer etc. were able to play among the top simply because they were talented. but assuming that talent/raw skill/cleverness + practice/dedication = overall skill, then even if a foreigner has more raw skill he will eventually be behind in overall skill because of the korean (gaming) culture unless they practice similarly hard. (although this is a flawed, as everyone has a peak of overall skill at which he will not improve anymore, although I think that if you are smart and talented enough this will not matter because those people will quit before reaching their peak) Also, of course, if 0.01% of the players are talented enough to become the best player in the world, chances are that this person will be a korean simply because of the amount of people playing there. Obviously chances of Flash being the best player in the world right now if everyone in the world had played starcraft for as long as he are has basically zero. edit: to further explain Idra's point, think of poker. Pros know how to play against other pros because the can assume their range of hands, assume them to make the correct decisions etc., but if you are playing against someone that plays irrationally, it becomes infinitely harder to play your best. In the long run, they will crush the newbs, just as in starcraft a pro would beat someone worse in 99 out of 100 games, but it's easy to lose short-term. Everyone that played poker with friends and had someone at their table with zero experience will know this. If he goes all-in, you will not know what to do because he could have the nuts or completey air. | ||
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Dracid
United States280 Posts
...Except Korean amateurs dominate ICCup. If foreigners can't beat amateurs with their innovative strategies, I see no reason why they'd be able to beat professionals. They're going to need much more than just "open competition." SC2... still too early to say. I'd put my money on Korea being dominant given its history with SC1, but I wouldn't count out other Asian countries either (especially China). Somehow I don't see a US or European country taking enough interest to develop a professional scene, which you need if you're going to compete long-term. | ||
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Jugan
United States1566 Posts
On April 03 2010 06:39 skypig wrote: This has been on my mind for some time now - I can't help but think that if the top foreigners were allowed to play "in the mix" with the Koreans, then foreigners would be beating Koreans on a fairly regular basis. The fact that Boxer, Effort, and Bisu all got beaten by non-Koreans at the IESF that happened a while back seems to support this. You should understand that korean progamers don't practice nonstop for IESF... it's more of a casual thing for them. They have more important things to practice for. Look at Idra - he's regarded as one of the best, but he can't even make it onto A-team (no offense to him, it just demonstrates the gap). | ||
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FortuneSyn
1826 Posts
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Subversive
Australia2229 Posts
Terrible. Some people still believe those tests are an accurate measure of intelligence. And comparing nations... wow, just wow. I can't believe anyone would seriously suggest one "people" are smarter than another. On April 03 2010 15:58 lazz wrote: this thread is so racist lol So true. edit: It seems like the very best and very worst threads get the most attention on tl. This is not the former -_- | ||
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vOddy
Sweden402 Posts
On April 03 2010 06:39 skypig wrote: This has been on my mind for some time now - I can't help but think that if the top foreigners were allowed to play "in the mix" with the Koreans, then foreigners would be beating Koreans on a fairly regular basis. The fact that Boxer, Effort, and Bisu all got beaten by non-Koreans at the IESF that happened a while back seems to support this. I think Koreans definitely have a "technical" edge in StarCraft in that they practice the game much more than the foreigners do and thus have a physical advantage in playing the game; however the fact that they isolate themselves and practice strictly with other Koreans also opens them up to make stupid mistakes and assumptions because they're always playing the same crowd of people, making them more vulnerable to "non-Korean" strategies and situations. I hope StarCraft II forces those Koreans to get their hands dirty and compete against EVERYONE in the StarCraft world, not just other Koreans...then we'll see if they're really the best. I'm kinda overstepping myself here, but what do the rest of you think? I still maintain that the best foreigners could match, and even surpass, the Koreans if they were allowed to compete against them regularly. Lol... Not even gonna type a response to this because I don't even know where to start. | ||
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KH1031
United States862 Posts
You're asserting that the foreigners would be able to beat the Koreans with non-Korean-esque strategies, yet in the paragraph before you argued that if they're practicing "in-the-mix" with Koreans then they'll beat the Koreans on a regular basis... Case 1: The Koreans are "mixing" with the foreigners, then your first assertion would be nullified. Case 2: The Koreans are not "mixing" with the foreigners, then the condition for your second argument doesn't even exist. -- Edit: Wow...after skimming through the thread...it's pretty apparent that this is much trolled thread... I shall participate no further. | ||
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PanN
United States2828 Posts
On April 03 2010 23:37 vOddy wrote: Lol... Not even gonna type a response to this because I don't even know where to start. That sucks seeing as 6 pages before you knew exactly where to start. | ||
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GreEny K
Germany7312 Posts
On April 03 2010 06:52 zimz wrote: no way. even the best foreigners will tell you how much better koreans are. wow, you're completely missing his point. Anyway, yeah I agree even though Bisu is one of those players that underestimates people who are worse than him and winds up losing. | ||
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Nal_rAwr
United States2611 Posts
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ella_guru
Canada1741 Posts
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Fallen33
United States596 Posts
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RamenStyle
United States1929 Posts
You don't even factor things like culture, where in SK being a progamers is not a stigma, while in the West you are a payed nerd at best. Second, there is this little thing called work ethics, which are insane in SK, and one of the big reasons why a country that was at the bottom of the 3rd world countries ranking 40 years ago now is one of the most technologically advanced countries. When they get into something, they go at it like crazy, no sleep, no eating, nothing, just focused on their goal. And there are lot of people out there in the West who also look like they have OCD, but this insane work ethic in SK extends to a much bigger portion of the population. | ||
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skypig
United States237 Posts
On April 04 2010 01:50 RamenStyle wrote: Had you said, that given the same conditions, equal practicing environments and practicing hours, foreigners could be up there at the same level as Koreans could've made a somewhat reasonable argument. But you just think that given the same conditions, foreigners will beat Koreans because they are overall less talented/intelligent, which makes your statements not just ignorant but racist. You don't even factor things like culture, where in SK being a progamers is not a stigma, while in the West you are a payed nerd at best. Second, there is this little thing called work ethics, which are insane in SK, and one of the big reasons why a country that was at the bottom of the 3rd world countries ranking 40 years ago now is one of the most technologically advanced countries. When they get into something, they go at it like crazy, no sleep, no eating, nothing, just focused on their goal. And there are lot of people out there in the West who also look like they have OCD, but this insane work ethic in SK extends to a much bigger portion of the population. I don't know why people keep accusing me of racism - all I said was that I think foreigners would be able to "out-think" Koreans because they're not locked into the same rigorous system of drilling build orders and memorizing "winning" strategies. I am not trying to be racist, and I apologize to all those who think I am. I will definitely admit that Koreans are still the best because of their CULTURAL EDGE: they play more StarCraft, talk more StarCraft, and think more StarCraft than the rest of the world. I will not say that their IQ is higher; I will not say that their IQ is lower. To be honest, I don't CARE about their IQ; I care about good solid competitive environments that currently don't exist for foreigners because they're not exposed to the same level of play. And don't say "well Koreans dominate ICCup, so foreigners aren't good" because that's just an example of Koreans playing a couple games against inferior players, winning, and then never coming into contact with them again. That's not a competitive environment; that's an environment that makes it brutally hard for the less-skilled players to get better because they're always crushed by an established superior majority of players. This is like expecting a group of white belts to knock out a bunch of black belts in a few matches - it's not going to happen. However, if you let the white belts actually LEARN and TRAIN with the black belts, then they will get better and start winning. My argument is really not that complicated and I'm not sure why it's so objectionable to some people. I realize that most of this is wishful thinking because first of all, MONEY is the big issue here and it would not be profitable for Korean companies and Korean gamers to actively train with foreigners. The result is that you have an exclusive pool of elite players who don't really give the foreigners a chance to match them, which is not a good competitive environment. Secondly, as we've all heard, Koreans themselves tend to be xenophobic towards foreigners that do manage to break the anti-foreigner shield, which makes it harder yet to benefit from actually being in Korea. Ironic that so many people accuse me of racism...based on what I've seen, heard, and read on this site, it's the Koreans that are being racist, not the foreigners. Again, I'm not bashing Koreans, I'm trying to lay out the facts of why foreigners right now are not able to reach their full potential, and by "potential" I mean hone their playing ability to the same level as the best in the field (currently, Koreans). I'm not trying to be racist, and perhaps I shouldn't have made the title of this thread to be foreigner-favored, although I still think that foreigners would have a lot of good stuff to bring to the table if their mechanics and technical play were allowed to reach "Korean" level. | ||
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Dracid
United States280 Posts
Also, do you simply not know what iccup is? There were many complaints about people dodging Koreans during TSL2, it's not like the top foreigners don't have opportunities to play Korean players. The less-skilled players get crushed by an established group of better players? Well what the hell do you think is going to happen when they're going up against professionals instead of amateurs? It's like you're arguing that C- players should be able to compete with A players because they're more likely to innovate. Sure, they might be able to cheese a win here or there, but you don't go from C- to A without first going through the ranks inbetween. | ||
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Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
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