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On April 03 2010 06:39 skypig wrote:
This has been on my mind for some time now - I can't help but think that if the top foreigners were allowed to play "in the mix" with the Koreans, then foreigners would be beating Koreans on a fairly regular basis. The fact that Boxer, Effort, and Bisu all got beaten by non-Koreans at the IESF that happened a while back seems to support this.
I think Koreans definitely have a "technical" edge in StarCraft in that they practice the game much more than the foreigners do and thus have a physical advantage in playing the game; however the fact that they isolate themselves and practice strictly with other Koreans also opens them up to make stupid mistakes and assumptions because they're always playing the same crowd of people, making them more vulnerable to "non-Korean" strategies and situations.
I hope StarCraft II forces those Koreans to get their hands dirty and compete against EVERYONE in the StarCraft world, not just other Koreans...then we'll see if they're really the best. I'm kinda overstepping myself here, but what do the rest of you think? I still maintain that the best foreigners could match, and even surpass, the Koreans if they were allowed to compete against them regularly.
you must have written this to cause rage. Troll?
Well, I'll take the bait.
You know why Koreans only play against other Koreans? Take a guess. No, it's not because they're scared of foreigners. Maybe it has to do with the fact that they are the best in the entire world, and they can only improve if they play against other people of their EQUAL skill level. Duh? If foreigners WERE good enough, Koreans would obviously "get their hands dirty" and play against them, but that's obviously not the case.
Moreover, as people have said before, the BEST foreigner in the world is in Korea right now, competing very freaking regularly. What were you thinking when you wrote this?!
If trolling, please stop. If you're serious, please think before writing anything.
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As for Idra's performance against Korean pros - I don't really want to psycho-analyze the guy but it's probably one or more of three explanations:
1. He was a stranger in a strange land, didn't know the language, had trouble adjusting, etc.
2. He didn't practice as long and/or as hard as the Koreans did, for whatever reason.
3. He simply lacks the talent.
You decide which it is.
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On April 03 2010 15:41 Azarkon wrote:
As for Idra's performance against Korean pros - I don't really want to psycho-analyze the guy but it's probably one or more of three explanations:
1. He was a stranger in a strange land, didn't know the language, had trouble adjusting, etc.
2. He didn't practice as long and/or as hard as the Koreans did, for whatever reason.
3. He simply lacks the talent.
You decide which it is.
How about being an asshole to his fellow teammates causing them to hate himself. I hope idra didn't do this.
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On April 03 2010 12:18 jalstar wrote:
Koreans have dominated SC for nearly its entire history, so you can't attribute Korea's success solely to a better progaming scene. Part of it is culture, which leads to more practice hours and more standard builds, and part of it is a higher average IQ (highest in the world in fact). Currently, Korea's dominance is mostly due to the fact that progaming is a valid career there and nowhere else. But that doesn't explain Korean strength from 1999-2001.
What does IQ have to do with it? Jews have a much higher average IQ than Koreans. I don't see them dominating SC. Hong Kong and Singaporean Chinese also have a higher IQ than Koreans. I don't see them dominating SC, either. And I doubt the IQ of players like Jaedong, Flash, etc. are extraordinary. SC is not an IQ game.
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If the foreigner scene gets big time sponsors involved, then the foreigners will catch up very fast. Competitive gaming will follow the money. In BW, at least 99% of the money(made that figure up but it is probably close) flowed through the korean tournaments and leagues. Those leagues are extremely hard to enter in for foreigners. That right there is an easy formula for Korean domination.
Even though there is no way to test it and hence a moot bet. I would put money on Ret, Nony, Idra, and plenty of other foreigners having the same potential as top Korean gamers.
Since I am already commenting I will throw this out there as well, what makes for a really good gamer? My hypothesis is that the number one factor in making a great gamer is dedication/competitiveness, and it's not even close. Most of us have the potential for 300+ APM. Many of us have the brain to understand the game. Not many people have the will to practice for 12 hours a day. That is truly exceptional.
That is why I laugh when people say that Idra isn't really the best foreigner because he practices more than any other foreigner and against better competition, so it "doesn't really count."
Well, it is his dedication and competitiveness that has driven him to practice that much, why does that not count as a quality that makes him a great gamer?
I watched Nony's stream for a while when he was training for the TSL. I swear he is a machine. He gave himself like, three minutes of downtime between games before he was in another one. I get tired and stop playing after about 4 or 5 games because I don't care enough/ want it enough to push myself, and I simply can't keep focusing that hard. These guys do and I have all the respect in the world for that.
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this thread is so racist lol
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On April 03 2010 15:54 petered wrote:
If the foreigner scene gets big time sponsors involved, then the foreigners will catch up very fast. Competitive gaming will follow the money. In BW, at least 99% of the money(made that figure up but it is probably close) flowed through the korean tournaments and leagues. Those leagues are extremely hard to enter in for foreigners. That right there is an easy formula for Korean domination.
Even if the foreigner scene gets big time sponsors, i doubt it'll have the effect and response it had on SK. Starcraft pretty much moved an entire nation, Progamers are like celebrities. Its more of a cultural difference, I don't think americans/foreigners will openly accept progaming...
(...Then again they accept nascar/drag racing so who knows.)
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On April 03 2010 15:50 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2010 12:18 jalstar wrote:
Koreans have dominated SC for nearly its entire history, so you can't attribute Korea's success solely to a better progaming scene. Part of it is culture, which leads to more practice hours and more standard builds, and part of it is a higher average IQ (highest in the world in fact). Currently, Korea's dominance is mostly due to the fact that progaming is a valid career there and nowhere else. But that doesn't explain Korean strength from 1999-2001. What does IQ have to do with it? Jews have a much higher average IQ than Koreans. I don't see them dominating SC. Hong Kong and Singaporean Chinese also have a higher IQ than Koreans. I don't see them dominating SC, either. And I doubt the IQ of players like Jaedong, Flash, etc. are extraordinary. SC is not an IQ game.
dude
each race only gets ot be good at one thing or else they'd be imba
koreans obviously chose starcraft
jews picked.. erm.. violin
americans picked basketball
wooo racial balance
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
koreans will be > foreigners in sc2 easily, but not as dominant as the sc1 skill gap
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On April 03 2010 17:19 Xenocide_Knight wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2010 15:50 Azarkon wrote:On April 03 2010 12:18 jalstar wrote:
Koreans have dominated SC for nearly its entire history, so you can't attribute Korea's success solely to a better progaming scene. Part of it is culture, which leads to more practice hours and more standard builds, and part of it is a higher average IQ (highest in the world in fact). Currently, Korea's dominance is mostly due to the fact that progaming is a valid career there and nowhere else. But that doesn't explain Korean strength from 1999-2001. What does IQ have to do with it? Jews have a much higher average IQ than Koreans. I don't see them dominating SC. Hong Kong and Singaporean Chinese also have a higher IQ than Koreans. I don't see them dominating SC, either. And I doubt the IQ of players like Jaedong, Flash, etc. are extraordinary. SC is not an IQ game. dude each race only gets ot be good at one thing or else they'd be imba koreans obviously chose starcraft jews picked.. erm.. violin americans picked basketball wooo racial balance
Canada will choose hockey.
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This is my opinion on this discussion:
Of course koreans will dominate the sc2 scene as well because of the better practice conditions and the effort korans put into something if they want to be good at it.
But they have one problem which is the advantage of foreigners: the lack of creativity
Koreans are like robots. They choose a build order, maybe modifiy it a little bit but then practice this build over and over for an infinite amount of games. Their mechanics will improve dramatically and they are very hard to beat if you play standard builds because they are used to them.
But few of the koreans are really innovative. I mean there are more then 200 progamers and x amateurs who have been practicing their ass off for many years and did not invent anything new. There are only a few exceptions who made the difference. It took the koreans so many years to discover that FE is actually a great build. It took so many years to discover that mech upgrades work kinda well against protoss. And you could find a lot more examples of course. A few geniuses like Oov/Bisu/Flash etc. were needed to invent new strategies. All the other robots would have never discovered these new strategies because they would not even think about it and just continue playing the same builds over and over. Then some day they see a new build on tv, think it is actually great and the same story begins.
Back in the days boxer for example had HUGE problems against foreigners because they just played in another way. He won 2 WCGs but we should not forget how lucky he was (losing to bulagarian players etc.). Of course he had way better micro and mechanics then but foreigners just played differently.
Until most strategies are developped and mechanics begin to play a more dominant role foreigners will be able to compete with the koreans and counter standard build orders used in an SC2 proleague match better than korean amateur spectators.
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On April 03 2010 17:37 Gao Xi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2010 17:19 Xenocide_Knight wrote:On April 03 2010 15:50 Azarkon wrote:On April 03 2010 12:18 jalstar wrote:
Koreans have dominated SC for nearly its entire history, so you can't attribute Korea's success solely to a better progaming scene. Part of it is culture, which leads to more practice hours and more standard builds, and part of it is a higher average IQ (highest in the world in fact). Currently, Korea's dominance is mostly due to the fact that progaming is a valid career there and nowhere else. But that doesn't explain Korean strength from 1999-2001. What does IQ have to do with it? Jews have a much higher average IQ than Koreans. I don't see them dominating SC. Hong Kong and Singaporean Chinese also have a higher IQ than Koreans. I don't see them dominating SC, either. And I doubt the IQ of players like Jaedong, Flash, etc. are extraordinary. SC is not an IQ game. dude each race only gets ot be good at one thing or else they'd be imba koreans obviously chose starcraft jews picked.. erm.. violin americans picked basketball wooo racial balance Canada will choose hockey.
reroll imo
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On April 03 2010 19:42 iCCup.deL wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2010 17:37 Gao Xi wrote:On April 03 2010 17:19 Xenocide_Knight wrote:On April 03 2010 15:50 Azarkon wrote:On April 03 2010 12:18 jalstar wrote:
Koreans have dominated SC for nearly its entire history, so you can't attribute Korea's success solely to a better progaming scene. Part of it is culture, which leads to more practice hours and more standard builds, and part of it is a higher average IQ (highest in the world in fact). Currently, Korea's dominance is mostly due to the fact that progaming is a valid career there and nowhere else. But that doesn't explain Korean strength from 1999-2001. What does IQ have to do with it? Jews have a much higher average IQ than Koreans. I don't see them dominating SC. Hong Kong and Singaporean Chinese also have a higher IQ than Koreans. I don't see them dominating SC, either. And I doubt the IQ of players like Jaedong, Flash, etc. are extraordinary. SC is not an IQ game. dude each race only gets ot be good at one thing or else they'd be imba koreans obviously chose starcraft jews picked.. erm.. violin americans picked basketball wooo racial balance Canada will choose hockey. reroll imo
I agree.
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Tell ya what you throw somebody with not much experience in who is D- against say a C- or even D+ level player and watch how the games go even when the inexperienced player attempts cheese then come back to this thread and rethink your statements the more experienced player will win the majority of the time
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Well, I'm really surprised that this thread has stayed to a certain extent civil rofl. The difference here is division of resource. You are making the argument similar to saying if America and Canada have war games, Canada's military would improve and start beat the U.S., while U.S. spend billions upon billions into the military infrastructure, and Canada doesn't.
Somehow the argument was steered towards whether foreigners are ABLE to beat koreans THEORETICALLY. Well duh, anything and everything happens in imaginationland. But people are simply unwilling to devote such resources towards this game. The gap over the years have developed to both time-spent, infrastructure, and understanding. Has foreigners made builds for BW for the last what... 5 years? no. we copied, like in math class. The simple idea that MIXING will fill this enormous gap is simply the ignorance of the OP at the current BW situation.
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You do realize that koreans are professionals? Starcraft is their job. They spend way more time practicing than any foreigner could ever afford to.
As of now koreans are much better than any foreigner and if this changes in sc2 than it would mean that the game is far simplier than bw (which I do not believe).
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there's no difference between koreans and foreigners. there's only a difference between people who practice more than others.
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On April 03 2010 20:34 lazz wrote:
there's no difference between koreans and foreigners. there's only a difference between people who practice more than others.
And the fact that the Korean culture makes a perfect environment for producing the best SC players in the world. The dong-saengs must respect the hyungs and help them practice whenever they want for no reward. Any person coming from a Western country would tell the hyung to go fuck himself.
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On April 03 2010 20:43 pubbanana wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2010 20:34 lazz wrote:
there's no difference between koreans and foreigners. there's only a difference between people who practice more than others. And the fact that the Korean culture makes a perfect environment for producing the best SC players in the world. The dong-saengs must respect the hyungs and help them practice whenever they want for no reward. Any person coming from a Western country would tell the hyung to go fuck himself.
I laughed..and hard.
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It's funny because even in his theoretical situation the foreigners would still get stomped.
http://www.iccup.com/starcraft/ladder/1x1.html
Foreigners are free to play against Koreans, although there is a time difference. So why aren't their superior strategies winning? If foreigners can't beat Korean amateurs, what makes you think they can they beat Korean pros? Sure, a few of the top accounts might belong to pro teams, but then you click page 2... and page 3... etc. etc.
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EPT
