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On April 03 2010 10:51 skypig wrote:
Both Koreans and foreigners can "twist assumptions", as you say, to win games; no one's debating that point. MY point is that the best foreigners CAN think well enough and play well enough to exploit Korean mistakes and beat Koreans; the biggest obstacle to this happening is simply the fact that foreigners can't "mix" with Korean players right now. If you had Flash and Jaedong taking turns each week playing 10 games with the best foreigners in the world, you would see them lose games, and not just because of cheese or other "gay" things, but because of being out-thought by foreigner opponents. Foreigners have brains, too.
What are you saying here? It makes no sense. The best foreigner is Idra right now and he had been playing with korean progamers for 2 years now and his record against them isn't great at all.
Now look at the iccup (where both foreigners and koreans are playing against each other). Scroll down from the top ranked and try to find the first non-korean players.
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Dude, I think Koreans are in starcraft, what black people are in basketball. They are just better in general.
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Original post seems to suggest that if foreigners are to practice the same amount as korean pros, that somehow magically, they would have a consistent advantage over koreans... ??? this is based on IESF when bisu and effort lost to foreigners?
In my opinion, their loss would be most attributed to the fact that bisu/effort have no knowledge of the players they are playing, however, the foreigners watched these pros play and know their styles.
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On April 03 2010 10:55 koreasilver wrote:
Except every premises of your argument is completely moot because Koreans are like the "foreigners" that you are deifying.
You are seriously ignorant if you think Koreans are like the way you think they are and foreigners aren't. People like you are the ones that probably don't even understand how much change there has been in every single matchup in the past two years and how sweeping some of these changes were, and how a lot of these changes came extremely suddenly by all sorts of players. You're basically trying to argue that Koreans don't think more than foreigners, which is ROFL wrong.
"Koreans only win because they have better mechanics". Sounds like the rantings of a noob.
Hoooo....silly me; I didn't see your name. Sorry if I got you upset with this "anti-Korean" talk (if you actually are Korean), but you're overreacting anyway - please calm yourself down; I'm not trying to rile you up.
You're still missing the basic premise of my point: if foreigners actually had the chance to practice against Koreans on a daily, constant basis, they would begin out-thinking, out-smarting, and beating them. The only reason this isn't happening right now is because they DON'T have the chance for that kind of competitive exposure. If Idra, Nony, other foreigners, etc. all had the competitive environment that the Koreans have, then yes, they would start beating Koreans, they would start finding the weaknesses of Korean play and exploiting them, just like the Koreans themselves do to each other.
Heh, I just realized - you're blindly glorifying Koreans. You make it sound like Koreans = inherently, genetically better. They're good because of their environment. If you allowed foreigners to become part of that environment, then they would start beating Koreans. They have the brain and they have the creativity, just as much and probably more because they aren't as "locked in" to practice schemes like the Koreans ARE.
Basically what I'm saying is that foreigners hold a bunch of pent-up potential that can be released if they're allowed to practice with the Koreans...and this doesn't mean being restrained and forced to play with B-teamers / sub-par Koreans...this means playing with the cream of the crop and being exposed to high-level play so you can actually be playing on the same level.
Or, you can think about it like this: if you have Bruce Lee on one hand, and an untrained fighter on the other hand, Bruce Lee will always destroy the other fighter. However, if you allow the untrained fighter to train with Bruce Lee, eventually he will get as good, if not better, than Bruce Lee, and he will be able to identify Lee's mistakes, capitalize on them, and start winning fights. The POTENTIAL is there...but you have to give it the CHANCE to manifest itself.
Foreigners are like the untrained fighter right now - they have the potential and the ability to beat, if not outright dominate, Korean players. However, they can't actually achieve that unless they're given the same competitive environment, the same "training" that the Koreans have. And then they will start winning and beating them. It's quite simple, really.
Koreans are basically robbing foreigners of their potential right now by denying them the chance to the same competitive environment - i.e. playing with high-level players. If foreigners have that environment like the Koreans do, then they will start winning. Koreans right now are "shielded" from foreigner competition (except in cases like the IESF, which, ironically, instead of being an example of Korean domination, was an example of top Koreans getting beaten by players who practice much less.....but maybe think more.....?). Once that shield goes down, rest assured, Korean losses will start to rack up. Pretty soon the playing field will be even.
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I never said Koreans were genetically better. "Korean" is pretty much synonymous to "professional" when talking about Starcraft players. The fact that you think amateurs think more and think better than professionals is what is laughable about every argument you have been making, and your idealistic thought that foreigners would be magically better than Koreans if they spent as much time practising. You are thoroughly implying that Koreans think like robots, which is wrong, and that foreigners think better than Koreans, of which there is no evidence for at all. The argument you have been presenting has been shown over and over again by ignorant idiots like you over the years and every time there has been no factual basis to any of the arguments.
And Koreans have never robbed foreigners of the chance to have the same competitive environment. It's just that Koreans care much more and have made it possible for their scene to exist. Foreigners never have.
And in the end, your arguments are all baseless and continue to be rooted in nothing tangible. The ramblings of an ignorant noob.
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At skypig's post above:
Okay. The thread title and your previous posts are very misleading.
However, I agree with your post here.
Yes, if foreigners have the practice environment as the koreans do. They can also be just as good.
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there is a korean-foreigner distinction in BW because in korea their is a true esport industry which develops "professionals".
there is no such industry anywhere in the world yet for sc2.
players are all on even ground in terms of researching and learning this new game.
unless you suppose that 'reans have some sort of passive racial advantage when it comes to playing games?
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3 Lions
United States3705 Posts
On April 03 2010 06:52 zimz wrote:
no way. even the best foreigners will tell you how much better koreans are.
no offense to your name or anything
but your name makes this post so much better lol
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to Sky Pig: I do not disagree at all that given the same environment, foreigners would have the potential to be just as good as a Korean professional. However, I would like to point out and remind you that Idra has been in Korea for two years and is currently a B-league player.
You're idea that the foreigners would out think the Korean players can be done in a sniper situation, but in an actual series, I would have to back the mechanics and skill of the as well as the great strategies of the korean players. You seem to be disregarding the fact that fast expand play became so prevalent because it is a better build overall and negated disadvantages that the previous builds had.
One last thing that I'd want to point out is that you say that the foreigners would out think, outsmart, and beat Koreans. I find it hard to believe that if Nony, Ret, and others joined Idra in Korea then they would suddenly be able to beat the likes of Jaedong, Flash, Stork. You seem to be attacking KoreA_silver for glorifying Koreans, but I think you yourself are trying to say that the foreigners are SUPERIOR to koreans.
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On April 03 2010 07:27 Insane wrote:
The top koreans are way better than the top foreigners.
If the top foreigners had had the exact same opportunities / environment to play SC in, then I'm sure we'd have foreign players the same level as people like Flash, Jaedong, etc. It's not like there's something fundamental about Korean DNA that makes you better, it's purely the environment.
yeah i agree with this entirely, it's just like any nation that's really good at a sport it's usually because it's taken most seriously there so like almost everyone going up has a dream to be a pro had that so they have a massive talent pool to draw from to find the best
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On April 03 2010 11:22 skypig wrote:
You're still missing the basic premise of my point: if foreigners actually had the chance to practice against Koreans on a daily, constant basis, they would begin out-thinking, out-smarting, and beating them. Would it not go both ways? If foreigners (with the same amount of quality practice) play against and get used to Koreans, Koreans (who also spend time playing foreigners on regular basis) should be able to get used to playing against foreigners as well.
I think it depends. If you face a variety of opponents, you should be able to diversify your playing styles to deal with each of them. All it takes is time.
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Everyone is quick to point out stupid obvious shit like ' korean genes dont make you better at sc '
but imo the factor that matters most is hardly ever mentioned and that is korean culture/korean gaming culture.
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Lol i find it funny that this thread is event this long. The point is when SCII comes out the "foreign" scene will still have maybe 10k "Pro" players while koreans would still have the sponsors and their gaming channel.. As long as the foriegn E-Sports scene suddenly goes BOOM and expands 100% foriegn players wont be able to compete with koreans. They just have more time, money, people, and everything else to sustain progaming scene much bigger.
As for your thoughts on foriegn players being able to compete with koreans evenly if they have the same resources. I agree since theres no special gene that makes koreans play better in Starcraft. But you have too look at starcraft 1 as well. If koreans are like 70% better then the foriegners that skills will translate in to SC2 even if that skill is just managing your units or hacving a slightly better micro. Maybe if korean pro gaming scene dies in SC2 then foriegner will be able to compete with koreans but i dont think that people outside of korea has enough time to build up a decent skill before korean progamers start to own everything again.
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United States5775 Posts
You're still missing the basic premise of my point: if foreigners actually had the chance to practice against Koreans on a daily, constant basis, they would begin out-thinking, out-smarting, and beating them....
Heh, I just realized - you're blindly glorifying Koreans.
And you're blindly glorifying foreigners. You *might* be able to make a point of how koreans mostly practice standard level play and basic mechanics while foreigners try fancy strategies (aka stupid shit). That's more of a west vs east thing. But even if we assume this is true, and even if foreigners get the same amount of practice time, I still don't see them totally owning koreans like you say they would. In fact, I think the koreans would still come out on top because at the end of the day, standard play is going to net you more wins.
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Koreans have dominated SC for nearly its entire history, so you can't attribute Korea's success solely to a better progaming scene. Part of it is culture, which leads to more practice hours and more standard builds, and part of it is a higher average IQ (highest in the world in fact). Currently, Korea's dominance is mostly due to the fact that progaming is a valid career there and nowhere else. But that doesn't explain Korean strength from 1999-2001.
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Foreigners aren't as good as the top Koreans because they don't practice as much.
If you suddenly dropped all the top foreigners in some proteam house, they aren't going to magically get any better if they don't start playing 5x the amount they are playing now.
I don't know why you insistently claim that foreigners would be able to "outsmart and out-think" Korean players, when pretty much all the shit we do is copied directly from progamer VODs.
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Okay; I admit my thread title is misleading based on the point I'm trying to make. I realize now that all I'm trying to say is that foreigners have the potential to stand up to the Koreans if they are given the chance to participate in the same competitive environment. It's not like foreigners aren't willing to get better and take on bigger challenges; it's that they CAN'T because of the way the system works right now in Korea. No one can debate that foreigners would be just as good as Koreans if they had access to the same competitive environment.
And for all the people railing on Idra:
First of all, he HAS beaten Koreans before (and not just Tossgirl; he's taken games off of better players, and even without cheesing / being gay). That's pretty good, considering he's only had a couple years' exposure to their environment when they've had, oh let's see, like THEIR WHOLE LIFE'S TIME.....heh. The fact that Idra can beat them, although not most of the time, is a testament to the fact that foreigners do stand a chance if they get the right environment.
Secondly: Idra himself has not even had a fair chance at the competitive environment that would be necessary to show foreigners' potential. Yeah, he's part of a pro team, but like I said before, he's only been there a couple years, compared to the 7 - 10 years of play (or more) that his teammates have had. It's amazing that he's beaten as many Koreans as he has. Even now he's only getting a PART of the full competitive experience because 1.) he probably doesn't practice with his entire team and 2.) he doesn't practice with the rest of the Koreans. So even though he's in Korea, Idra is not getting full competitive experience, although he's getting much more than we are, which is evident by his skill level.
Thirdly: Put 20 - 30 of the best foreigners in Korea and give them a REAL competitive environment, where they can play and practice against the best of the best. Idra, Ret, Nony...ship them all over there, take the Korean shields down and expose those foreigners to the best of the best, and they'll get better because they have the environment to do so.
Of course, we can blame KeSPA and all the other money-grubbing corporations involved for making things the way they are, with Koreans being locked into their own teams and threatened with humiliation / loss of their job if they don't adhere to all the regulations. If the whole thing wasn't so commercialized, maybe Koreans would be more willing to actually play games with foreigners and risk losing a game or two for the greater good of helping people get better and rise to their full potential.
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On April 03 2010 11:22 skypig wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2010 10:55 koreasilver wrote:
Except every premises of your argument is completely moot because Koreans are like the "foreigners" that you are deifying.
You are seriously ignorant if you think Koreans are like the way you think they are and foreigners aren't. People like you are the ones that probably don't even understand how much change there has been in every single matchup in the past two years and how sweeping some of these changes were, and how a lot of these changes came extremely suddenly by all sorts of players. You're basically trying to argue that Koreans don't think more than foreigners, which is ROFL wrong.
"Koreans only win because they have better mechanics". Sounds like the rantings of a noob. Hoooo....silly me; I didn't see your name. Sorry if I got you upset with this "anti-Korean" talk (if you actually are Korean), but you're overreacting anyway - please calm yourself down; I'm not trying to rile you up. You're still missing the basic premise of my point: if foreigners actually had the chance to practice against Koreans on a daily, constant basis, they would begin out-thinking, out-smarting, and beating them. The only reason this isn't happening right now is because they DON'T have the chance for that kind of competitive exposure. If Idra, Nony, other foreigners, etc. all had the competitive environment that the Koreans have, then yes, they would start beating Koreans, they would start finding the weaknesses of Korean play and exploiting them, just like the Koreans themselves do to each other. Heh, I just realized - you're blindly glorifying Koreans. You make it sound like Koreans = inherently, genetically better. They're good because of their environment. If you allowed foreigners to become part of that environment, then they would start beating Koreans. They have the brain and they have the creativity, just as much and probably more because they aren't as "locked in" to practice schemes like the Koreans ARE. Basically what I'm saying is that foreigners hold a bunch of pent-up potential that can be released if they're allowed to practice with the Koreans...and this doesn't mean being restrained and forced to play with B-teamers / sub-par Koreans...this means playing with the cream of the crop and being exposed to high-level play so you can actually be playing on the same level. Or, you can think about it like this: if you have Bruce Lee on one hand, and an untrained fighter on the other hand, Bruce Lee will always destroy the other fighter. However, if you allow the untrained fighter to train with Bruce Lee, eventually he will get as good, if not better, than Bruce Lee, and he will be able to identify Lee's mistakes, capitalize on them, and start winning fights. The POTENTIAL is there...but you have to give it the CHANCE to manifest itself. Foreigners are like the untrained fighter right now - they have the potential and the ability to beat, if not outright dominate, Korean players. However, they can't actually achieve that unless they're given the same competitive environment, the same "training" that the Koreans have. And then they will start winning and beating them. It's quite simple, really. Koreans are basically robbing foreigners of their potential right now by denying them the chance to the same competitive environment - i.e. playing with high-level players. If foreigners have that environment like the Koreans do, then they will start winning. Koreans right now are "shielded" from foreigner competition (except in cases like the IESF, which, ironically, instead of being an example of Korean domination, was an example of top Koreans getting beaten by players who practice much less.....but maybe think more.....?). Once that shield goes down, rest assured, Korean losses will start to rack up. Pretty soon the playing field will be even.
Dude, you may outsmart korean once or twice, but mechanics will pretty much dominate over any cute play 99% of the time. If you don't have good enough mechanics, screw trying to do something tricky. Foreigners can't win because even if they try to do something cute, korean will always have better economy and bigger army.
And so what if top sc players lost once or twice to random foreigners? It happens. They aren't god. They're not supposed to win every game. You said that korean will start loosening up after they start losing? Well look at what happened in the WCG. Besides jaedong and stork dropping a game to a foreigner in a bo3, bisu, jaedong, stork completely crushed the foreigners. The only time I saw that a korean might of dropped out of the tournament was when stork played pj in the bo3, but pj is arguably the best foreigner in the world right now.
One or two losses means nothing. You can't win just by playing smarter. Mechanics takes a huge role in sc, so if you fall behind in mechanics, cute little strategies won't do enough, so no, foreigners will never beat koreans unless they train like they do.
And no, koreans aren't robbing foreigners of practice with top pros. The foreigners just suck. All koreans must make their way through the, can't remember the name but the tournament they play to get their proleague license (survivor tournament?), then they start off as a training partner with other nublets, and slowly make fame of themselves by making it into osl/msl and then practice with higher level progamers. If koreans can do it, why can't the foreigners? Its not like koreans who just became progamers can practice with the best players of their team instantly, they must work their way up to play with the better progamers. Foreigners aren't doing this cause they're generally less talented than koreans and could not work their way up like the koreans.
And honestly, your example with bruce lee sucks cause its all hypothetical, and I personally don't think anyone can beat up bruce lee. Bruce lee had insane reaction rate, a talent that is given to a very few people.
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ret nony and draco did go to korea and oh look what happens. their not at korea anymore. what makes you did that foreigners have the determination or will to handle the practice environment when 3 foreigners didnt even last a year?
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On April 03 2010 12:40 geegee1 wrote:
ret nony and draco did go to korea and oh look what happens. their not at korea anymore. what makes you did that foreigners have the determination or will to handle the practice environment when 3 foreigners didnt even last a year?
Because those foreigners were robbed of a fair competitive experience - please don't pretend like being discriminated against and neglected by your own team is anything close to a beneficial competitive environment. When I say "good environment", I mean open, unhindered competition between EVERYONE, no questions asked, so everyone can benefit from the games and get better accordingly. This is not happening in Korea right now, even amongst the Koreans, because of the way that teams are set up; you can't just play whoever you want, you have to play strictly with your teammates. If you step out of line, you get punished by KeSPA, or ostracized by your teammates, or whatever...it's all about money and reputation when it should be about true, unadulterated competition. It can happen in chess, it can happen in Street Fighter, but for some reason it can't happen in StarCraft.
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EPT
