EPTI can't take your thread any more seriously than that.
Foreigners > Koreans? - Page 8
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KissBlade
United States5718 Posts
I can't take your thread any more seriously than that. | ||
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Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
Supposedly the current (ladder) best from China, Korea, and Europe (maybe) will attend. But it is a beta tournament so take it with a grain of salt. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France8202 Posts
This. And ret, one of the best foreign zerg got steamrolled three time in a row against people who suck compare to B teamer, who themeselves suck against A-teamer, who themselves often suck compare to the few people we regularly see in starleagues. There is like four abismal skill gap between a top foreigner and a top professional. The fact that some dude manages with huge preparation to take the game of his life against a half drunk Bisu who isn't even looking at the screen because he doesn't give a damn doesn't mean anything at all. | ||
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skypig
United States237 Posts
On April 04 2010 03:47 Dracid wrote: Here, let me put it simply. Let's assume that Korean pro-gamers are all robots who care little about innovation and all play standard build orders and work on mechanics (Not true, but bear with me). What amazing strategies would foreigners offer that Korean amateurs wouldn't also be thinking of? If you're implying that foreigners are more creative than Koreans who don't play the game for a living, then that's obviously racist. If you're not, then what do foreigners have to offer that Korean amateurs do not? Look, Koreans are obviously the best, right now. Because they have access to a complete, high-level competitive environment with the masters of the game. I'm not debating that. However, keep in mind that playing the game for a JOB (literally) means that you have some restrictions...you are much less likely to try new and risky things because it means your job is at stake if you fail, not to mention you let your team down, suffer humiliation, etc. This is where foreigners have a potential advantage - they're not "locked in" to the commercialized, money-driven trashload of restrictions that KeSPA and all the other StarCraft corporations put in. If foreigners could have the same competitive environment that Koreans do, in order to get their mechanics, game sense, and technical skill up to par, then they would be free to push the limits of creativity and try new and crazy things. I'm not saying Koreans are less creative; I'm saying they're RESTRICTED by the very things that you mentioned - money, their job, etc. is all at stake if they try to be "too creative." Foreigners are not restricted in that way. Therefore, foreigners + no restrictions = more creative play with the potential for winning. Of course, this also applies to Koreans....so you could just as easily say Koreans + no restrictions = more creative play, etc. Except in this case, Koreans are pretty much stuck in the system while foreigners aren't, necessarily. Although maybe foreigners would have to become part of the system in order to experience that competitive environment, although I'm sure there's ways around that, as SC2 may show. Is that so hard to understand? On April 04 2010 03:47 Dracid wrote: Also, do you simply not know what iccup is? There were many complaints about people dodging Koreans during TSL2, it's not like the top foreigners don't have opportunities to play Korean players. The less-skilled players get crushed by an established group of better players? Well what the hell do you think is going to happen when they're going up against professionals instead of amateurs? It's like you're arguing that C- players should be able to compete with A players because they're more likely to innovate. Sure, they might be able to cheese a win here or there, but you don't go from C- to A without first going through the ranks inbetween. Sure I know what ICCup is; I play on it. Again, you have no point - people dodging Koreans is like white belts dodging black belts because they know the black belts know more, fight more, and have more experience. If the white belts HAD THE CHANCE to actually train and get better vs. the black belts, then they would improve and eventually fight "on par" with the black belts. Bad example on your part....ICCup is just another example of the consequences of a bad competitive environment; you get a majority of elite players that effectively prevent anyone who's trying to get better from getting much-needed practice. | ||
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Dracid
United States280 Posts
As for iccup. How do they not have a chance? White belts don't get better by sparring with black belts. They get better by sparring with people near their own level, and work their way up to being black belts. | ||
ArvickHero
10387 Posts
On April 04 2010 04:15 skypig wrote: However, keep in mind that playing the game for a JOB (literally) means that you have some restrictions...you are much less likely to try new and risky things because it means your job is at stake if you fail, not to mention you let your team down, suffer humiliation, etc. This is where foreigners have a potential advantage - they're not "locked in" to the commercialized, money-driven trashload of restrictions that KeSPA and all the other StarCraft corporations put in. If foreigners could have the same competitive environment that Koreans do, in order to get their mechanics, game sense, and technical skill up to par, then they would be free to push the limits of creativity and try new and crazy things. I'm not saying Koreans are less creative; I'm saying they're RESTRICTED by the very things that you mentioned - money, their job, etc. is all at stake if they try to be "too creative." Foreigners are not restricted in that way. Therefore, foreigners + no restrictions = more creative play with the potential for winning. Of course, this also applies to Koreans....so you could just as easily say Koreans + no restrictions = more creative play, etc. Except in this case, Koreans are pretty much stuck in the system while foreigners aren't, necessarily. Although maybe foreigners would have to become part of the system in order to experience that competitive environment, although I'm sure there's ways around that, as SC2 may show. Is that so hard to understand? This is stupid, their job is to win. Some players are known as strategists, who go for risky and innovative plays (Kal and Horang2), while others are known to play standard whose refinements escape people like you. Hell, almost all, if not all, innovative and new builds come from Korea, not from the foreigners. Koreans are always trying new and risky things, as subtle or pronounced as they may be. | ||
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haster27
Taiwan809 Posts
There are people A and people B who has equal amount of skill and potential. People A is placed in the condition which allows him to develop his skill and maximize his potential. People B is not. People A is statistically more likely to play better than Player B. I don't see what is the problem here? | ||
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Nytefish
United Kingdom4282 Posts
On April 04 2010 05:01 haster27 wrote: Simplification for all. Forget all this foreigners vs koreans crap. There are people A and people B who has equal amount of skill and potential. People A is placed in the condition which allows him to develop his skill and maximize his potential. People B is not. People A is statistically more likely to play better than Player B. I don't see what is the problem here? OP is arguing people B have more potential because they're smarter. | ||
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haster27
Taiwan809 Posts
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Biff The Understudy
France8202 Posts
On April 04 2010 05:05 haster27 wrote: Of course people B is more smarter than people A! Let's treat this statistically. There are 10000 people A, and 100000000000 people B. There are bound to be few B that is smarter than people A. Perfect compromise. Happy times for all. Except there are probably more people playing starcraft a bit seriously in Korea than outside Korea. You can't use statistic in such a silly way. Koreans are not smarter or dumber than foreigners. They just play at a higer level, which means that it's more difficult to do stupid things like cutting scvs randomely or going for silly builds. You think someone like Flash plays robotic because all of us except maybe IdrA don't understand a quarter of what is happening, as very little details play a huuuuge role in a S class game. I remember Flash saying that he got surprised because when he pushed against BeSt, his opponent had 4 templar instead of 3 as he expected and that he lost the game because of that. It was like 9 minutes into the game. Starcraft is incredibly subtle, but we only see stupid or flashy things because we suck too much to realize what is really going on most of the time. Foreigners without exception are terribad compared to any half decent A teamer. | ||
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haster27
Taiwan809 Posts
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Biff The Understudy
France8202 Posts
On April 04 2010 05:24 haster27 wrote: But I thought we were speaking about hypotheticals? If you want to make statistic, you can, but about a pertinent population. You can't say "there are 30 millions Koreans and 6 billions foreigners so..." because we are talking only about people playing startcraft at high level which make your reasonement completely absurd. | ||
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haster27
Taiwan809 Posts
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geegee1
United States618 Posts
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Papvin
Denmark612 Posts
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theramstoss
Canada242 Posts
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skypig
United States237 Posts
On April 04 2010 04:24 Dracid wrote: Re-read my first paragraph. I'm not talking about professionals, I'm talking about what advantages foreigners have over Korean amateurs. As for iccup. How do they not have a chance? White belts don't get better by sparring with black belts. They get better by sparring with people near their own level, and work their way up to being black belts. Yeah but even Korean amateurs are "black belts" (or less than black belt but still better than white belt...) because they have a culture that reinforces StarCraft, not to mention they're still playing with better players than foreigners are, and on a more consistent basis. In other words they still have the competitive environment that foreigners lack, thus of course they will continue to do better on ICCup. And yes, white belts get better by sparring with people near their own level...unfortunately there IS no "near level" for foreigners to practice against in order to get better because ALL of the "next levels" of play exist in the exclusive Korean competitive environment, from the worst to the best. And foreigners still don't have access to those "higher levels" of competition. And, as I've been saying before, IF THEY DID have access, then they would get better. I guess what I've been trying to say this whole time is that there should be UNRESTRICTED competition between everyone in StarCraft, and everyone should be able to consistently play with players that are at or above their level. I think by now it's too late because even Korean amateurs probably don't want to mess around helping foreigners get better and improve their play (for multiple reasons). Oh well. Again I admit my title is misleading...perhaps it should be changed to: Foreigners + Unrestricted Competition = Koreans | ||
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Nytefish
United Kingdom4282 Posts
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neVern
United States115 Posts
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pubbanana
United States3063 Posts
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