EPTAlso, if said strategy doesn't involve an early timing push, you will inevitably have to deal with the Korean's own push. If you can defend against this without suffering crippling damage, you might have a chance, but because of their technical prowess, this isn't as easy as it sounds.
Foreigners > Koreans? - Page 3
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Spazer
Canada8028 Posts
Also, if said strategy doesn't involve an early timing push, you will inevitably have to deal with the Korean's own push. If you can defend against this without suffering crippling damage, you might have a chance, but because of their technical prowess, this isn't as easy as it sounds. | ||
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LunarDestiny
United States4177 Posts
Drone Drill aka. lOl, bisu face Famous game vs. nada: Eye for an eye | ||
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skypig
United States237 Posts
On April 03 2010 09:38 LunarDestiny wrote: To skypig: What are you trying to say? You now say that koreans can exploit assumptions by other koreans and foreigners can't do the same. So why are you saying that foreigners are smarter starcraft players than the koreans are. One way to prove who is the smarter player is to have the smartest Starcraft players from the Koreans and the Foreigner coaching two players of similar skill level and see who wins. Foreigners CAN exploit assumptions of Korean players, and they also have the advantage of having playstyles that are less familiar to the Korean players because Koreans are used to playing other Korean players. Maybe the foreigners will use less-seen builds, maybe they'll deviate from build orders more often, maybe they'll use underused units/abilities...whatever the case, a foreigner has a "default" advantage on the side of STYLE when playing a Korean, while the Korean has the "default" edge of technical skill (micro, macro, multitasking, etc.). My point about Koreans out-thinking Koreans was only to show that Koreans CAN be "out-thought", because several people here have claimed that technical skill overrides any "mistakes" a Korean makes, which isn't true at all. Technical skill can certainly help compensate, but if you constantly get out-thought or tricked by your opponent, then you'll lose because your micro and macro can't save you from the consequences. This is as simple as faking 3-hatch muta with a spire and then coming out with lurk/ling and crushing the Terran outright at his natural because he spent too much on turrets (obviously there are more/better examples than that one, but you get the idea). And yes, Flash can lose to stuff like this, and he HAS lost to stuff like this. I AM saying that Flash/Jaedong/whoever could be beaten by a top foreigner if the foreigner tricks/exploits/out-thinks them and acts upon it properly. My point is to emphasize that it will be EASIER for foreigners to do this because some of them already play in a "non-Korean" fashion in the sense that they don't stick as rigorously to the same builds/styles/strategies. This means that foreigners have a relatively good chance of winning "by default" simply because their default play style will be so much of a new thing for the Koreans to grasp and adapt to, while simultaneously maintaining their rate of decision-making and actions in general. | ||
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MuffinDude
United States3837 Posts
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d_so
Korea (South)3262 Posts
On April 03 2010 09:19 skypig wrote: This is basically what I'm driving at; I think you're the first person that mentioned it - playing "smarter" can win you games, even if you are technically less solid than your opponent...I don't think I need to give examples of this. In fact, I think that there's sort of an inverse relationship between how much you THINK and how much you ACT in SC, because to consciously think, you have to slow down on your "acting" in case you do something stupid in that "robotic" way that we all know. I definitely think there are foreigners who could out-think Koreans, and use this advantage to win. Koreans DO make stupid mistakes, and they're not just "Oops I forgot to scout my opponent so now I make the wrong units" mistakes...they can make mistakes like "I DID scout my opponent but I don't know how to properly counter this because my Korean practice partners haven't used this against me before." Which is a mistake that can cost you games, no matter how sound your technical play is. Micro can only help so much. Heck, the current featured article on Liquipedia right now has Artosis saying (and I quote): "(...) most people, including pro gamers, don't really understand how to play it against Mech exactly, they don't understand the fact that all you really have to do is protect your economy and mass up." I remember reading that and thinking, "Huh, how ironic - the 'invincible' Koreans don't know how to counter something properly"...and then I remember thinking, "Hey, maybe they're just NOT THINKING because all they know how to do is ROBOT PLAY." Scout build -> initiate counter build. No thinking, just clicking...until they see something that hasn't been drilled into them a thousand times by their practice partners. Which is when they can lose because of not thinking. Obviously I'm exaggerating a bit because you DO see Koreans adapting literally in-game to new things (at least the good Koreans) but my point is that they still have a high amount of "programming" in their gameplay that could be exploited by better-thinking opponents, even though the Koreans would have the physical, technical edge. Also, I never implied that Koreans are "genetically better"; I'm not sure why people are thinking that I did. I admit that their practice environment is much, much better and I admit that you can't judge them because of the pathetic IESF losses...however I'm not willing to admit that they're "perfect" or "the best" by any means. I still think they can be "out-thought" to the point that foreigners (meaning people who don't have access to the Korean practice pool, for all you people that think I'm being racist) can win against them consistently until the Koreans, too, learn to think. StarCraft 2 will hopefully put this theory to the test by forcing Korean-foreigner games on a consistent basis so we can really see who ends up on top. it's a lot like poker. a good player usually plays standard early, betting x amount depending on position, cards, stage of game, etc. These plays usually signify to everyone what the player is doing without saying anything. The players follow these unspoken rules because they know it works and because somewhere, there is a poker textbook that has been reached by consensus regarding these things. For unorthodox moves to work, you have to have a solid grasp of the fundamental rules first. Pulling off some ignorant move early on might work for you the first few times, just in respect for the textbook, but eventually you'll get exposed. And that's what starcraft is like. People call koreans "robotic" and foreigners "creative", but it's like calling standard poker play "robotic" and noob poker play as "creative". Koreans are plenty creative within the set of rules that have been firmly establish as standard, optimized play. And every so often, that creativity will break the molds of standard play, such as the mechanic craze or mnm wraiths in TvZ, but only with a firm plan to compensate the weaknesses of their deviation while capitalizing upon its strengths. On the other hand, until recently foreigners have not been able to replicate standard play. Part of it is because of the mechanical difficulties of starcraft, but part of it also the lesser motivation to practice and perfect these builds, which may be somewhat related to the perpetual touting of foreign intellect as creative and stylish. (Strangely, it seems that once a play has been established as standard, or a certain play has been established as nonstandard, it's the foreigners who become dogmatic about the viability or nonviability of play. See any thread regarding corsair in TvP, DA in PvZ or Queens in ZvT to see a flood of hate-spewing rhetoric regarding the possibility of such play, with only the former having not seen time in pro starcraft. Most of their arguments are usually based around the following: 1. it will mess up your timing, 2. it costs too much, 3. if it was good the koreans would have already done it.) of course, starcraft is different from poker because you don't have to macro to acquire chips/weapons. Perhaps the relative ease of starcraft2 will help reduce this mechanical gap and let it become more of a thinking person's game, where everyone is pretty much on equal playing field. But in something as undisciplined as a video game (in comparison to chess or poker), having discipline and perfecting optimized builds is a powerful advantage, no matter how easy the game. And I really don't think SC2 will level the playing field as much as people think: when micro moves conflict between difficult and easy, SC2 leans towards the easy, but that's not necessarily good for high level play. Things like prioritizing workers, auto surround, and 1A-ing an entire army might seem good but will eventually lead to a realization that it will require that much more work (and APM) to focusfire enemy units, surround an army, and avoid getting one shot by some devastating aoe | ||
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geegee1
United States618 Posts
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On April 03 2010 09:29 skypig wrote: Because then that "minority" of competitive StarCraft players will show up with strategies and thought patterns that aren't familiar to the Koreans. Then the Koreans will wish that they weren't so isolated - they'll start losing games because they'll be unused to different strategies and different thought patterns, and be unable to adapt and still play technically perfect simultaneously. Even Flash can be beaten by opponents who out-think and out-smart him, even if his technical play is better...it's not like he never loses, even if he does win the majority of his games. If foreigners can recognize stupid Korean mistakes and act on them, they will win - it's that simple. Even better, if foreigners can exploit Korean assumptions and "popular strategy tendencies", then they can THINK their way to victory...you see Koreans doing this to Koreans; I'm not sure why foreigners can't do the same. I don't understand why foreigners would be smarter than Koreans. Koreans pros are better than foreigners because the talent pool is much bigger in Korea. There are simply more people playing starcraft in Korea than all of the world combined. To be a Korean Pro, you have to have the best mechanics and be one of the best thinkers in starcraft. Because of the bigger player population of Korea, I'm certain that Koreans would "out think" foreigners because they are more talented starcraft players. | ||
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GogoKodo
Canada1785 Posts
On April 03 2010 09:52 skypig wrote: Foreigners CAN exploit assumptions of Korean players, and they also have the advantage of having playstyles that are less familiar to the Korean players because Koreans are used to playing other Korean players. Maybe the foreigners will use less-seen builds, maybe they'll deviate from build orders more often, maybe they'll use underused units/abilities...whatever the case, a foreigner has a "default" advantage on the side of STYLE when playing a Korean, while the Korean has the "default" edge of technical skill (micro, macro, multitasking, etc.). My point about Koreans out-thinking Koreans was only to show that Koreans CAN be "out-thought", because several people here have claimed that technical skill overrides any "mistakes" a Korean makes, which isn't true at all. Technical skill can certainly help compensate, but if you constantly get out-thought or tricked by your opponent, then you'll lose because your micro and macro can't save you from the consequences. This is as simple as faking 3-hatch muta with a spire and then coming out with lurk/ling and crushing the Terran outright at his natural because he spent too much on turrets (obviously there are more/better examples than that one, but you get the idea). And yes, Flash can lose to stuff like this, and he HAS lost to stuff like this. I AM saying that Flash/Jaedong/whoever could be beaten by a top foreigner if the foreigner tricks/exploits/out-thinks them and acts upon it properly. My point is to emphasize that it will be EASIER for foreigners to do this because some of them already play in a "non-Korean" fashion in the sense that they don't stick as rigorously to the same builds/styles/strategies. This means that foreigners have a relatively good chance of winning "by default" simply because their default play style will be so much of a new thing for the Koreans to grasp and adapt to, while simultaneously maintaining their rate of decision-making and actions in general. Hi. Koreans CAN exploit the assumptions of foreigners, and they also have the advantage of having playstyles that are less familiar to the foreign players because foreigners are used to playing other foreign players. Maybe the Korean will use better builds, maybe they won't skrew up a good build order. A Korean has a "default" advantage on the side of SKILL when playing a foreigner. Thinking skill can certainly help compensate, but if you constantly get out macroed and out microed by your opponent, then you'll lose because your "thought" can't save you from the consequences. And yes, every foreigner ever can lose to stuff like this, and they HAVE lost to stuff like this. I AM saying that Nony/White-Ra/whoever could be beaten by a B-team Korean if the B-team Korean out macros/out micros them and acts upon it properly. My point is to emphasize that it will be EASIER for Koreans to do this because some of them already play in a "Korean" fashion in the sense that they play better. This means that Koreans have a relatively good chance of winning "by default" simply because of their default mechanics being too much for the foreigner to compete with and adapt to. | ||
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Flyingsnow
Japan208 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=60772 I think you also assume that korean players don't "out think" or take advantage of "foreigner" play styles. Foreigners can just as easily be mind fucked by their opponents. There is a reason we don't have anyone who stands even close to a chance at competing at the same level. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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d_so
Korea (South)3262 Posts
On April 03 2010 10:25 koreasilver wrote: Foreigners haven't come up with anything new in Starcraft since like the super early days of the game. How the hell do you think Koreans win games against each other? They twist the assumptions of what has been standardized. The Koreans innovate the game all the time and the game seriously changes every couple of months gradually and sometimes even suddenly. This assumption that Koreans are all mindless drones is the most stupid and trite argument that foreigners bring up all the time. It's like the bad foreigner's attempt to make himself feel better. YO PROXYING A HATCH IN YOUR MAIN ZVZ IS ROBOTIC DONT YOU KNOW | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On April 03 2010 10:26 d_so wrote: YO PROXYING A HATCH IN YOUR MAIN ZVZ IS ROBOTIC DONT YOU KNOW HEY MAN BRINGING SUDDEN AND HUGE PARADIGN SHIFTS TO THE MOST STABLE MATCHUP IN A MATTER OF A FEW WEEKS ISN'T INNOVATIVE BECAUSE YOU'RE STILL USING THE SAME UNITS DON'T YOU KNOW. | ||
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d_so
Korea (South)3262 Posts
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tryTRY
United States24 Posts
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skypig
United States237 Posts
On April 03 2010 10:25 koreasilver wrote: Foreigners haven't come up with anything new in Starcraft since like the super early days of the game. How the hell do you think Koreans win games against each other? They twist the assumptions of what has been standardized. The Koreans innovate the game all the time and the game seriously changes every couple of months gradually and sometimes even suddenly. This assumption that Koreans are all mindless drones is the most stupid and trite argument that foreigners bring up all the time. It's like the bad foreigner's attempt to make himself feel better. Both Koreans and foreigners can "twist assumptions", as you say, to win games; no one's debating that point. MY point is that the best foreigners CAN think well enough and play well enough to exploit Korean mistakes and beat Koreans; the biggest obstacle to this happening is simply the fact that foreigners can't "mix" with Korean players right now. If you had Flash and Jaedong taking turns each week playing 10 games with the best foreigners in the world, you would see them lose games, and not just because of cheese or other "gay" things, but because of being out-thought by foreigner opponents. Foreigners have brains, too. Plus you're forgetting that Koreans get stuck in their little "phases" of strategy until the next "phase" comes about and suddenly makes everything else "obsolete" (or at least out of style for the time being). This means that, by definition, at any given point there are weaknesses in the way that Koreans (and really anyone) plays, and there are always ways to capitalize on them. There is no "magic build order" or "magic strategy"; even "standard play" can be beaten quite soundly as long as you're one step ahead, mentally, of your opponent. And I'm saying that foreigners are GOOD enough to where they COULD be one step ahead of Korean opponents, if they're really on top of their game. It's happened before, although not often, but just the fact that it happened shows that it would happen much more often if foreigners played Koreans more. Let's see what happens when you get the Koreans clashing with foreigners on StarCraft II...I'm willing to bet that, barring any imbalanced matchups (which hopefully won't exist by then), you'll see the likes of Flash and Jaedong getting hammered by foreigners. Not due to cheese, not due to gay stuff, but due to out-thinking and out-smarting. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
You are seriously ignorant if you think Koreans are like the way you think they are and foreigners aren't. People like you are the ones that probably don't even understand how much change there has been in every single matchup in the past two years and how sweeping some of these changes were, and how a lot of these changes came extremely suddenly by all sorts of players. You're basically trying to argue that Koreans don't think more than foreigners, which is ROFL wrong. "Koreans only win because they have better mechanics". Sounds like the rantings of a noob. | ||
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neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
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buickskylark
Canada664 Posts
On April 03 2010 06:53 Xxio wrote: If you practice 14 hours a day you're going to be good, no matter what ethnicity you are. Also, Korean progames come up with all the BW strategies and foreigners copy them, soo.. Don't kid yourself, Effort or Bisu could rock any foreigner. I think it depends on how you practiced. Playing 14 hours a day will make you good, but actually working at correcting your flaws and deliberately trying to get better is what makes you great. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
And sorry, but from what I have been reading from some of the higher level players, the strategy in the non-Korean SC2 beta servers are behind the Asia server. So much for your magical clairvoyant foreign players. | ||
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King K. Rool
Canada4408 Posts
On April 03 2010 10:51 skypig wrote: Let's see what happens when you get the Koreans clashing with foreigners on StarCraft II...I'm willing to bet that, barring any imbalanced matchups (which hopefully won't exist by then), you'll see the likes of Flash and Jaedong getting hammered by foreigners. Not due to cheese, not due to gay stuff, but due to out-thinking and out-smarting. Sounds like you've just got a wee bit of foreigner pride there. You're delusional if you think that foreigners will just be able to outsmart Koreans like the way you make it out to be. It's not like Koreans are robots. Especially for SCII; when there's no standard play, what makes you think that foreigners will have the advantage over Koreans? I'd bet the opposite. There's a reason why all the builds come from Korea. They have the environment for it; alot of serious players, people who make a living off of this sort of stuff. It's like you just clump Koreans together into "robot" and foreigners into "smart humans". Even if foreigners were GIVEN the chance to practice like Koreans do, I'd still go with Koreans. Generally speaking, their work ethics are probably better than foreigners. | ||
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