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On October 05 2008 07:14 damenmofa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2008 06:41 Nintu wrote:On October 05 2008 00:37 damenmofa wrote:
sorry but no, this is crap against a zerg who knows what hes doing. Like others said, hyd/lurk rape the shit out of you, especially when coupled with drops. U say siege tanks rape hyd/lurk, but I say u can NOT have more than 4-5 Siege Tanks and a group of m&m when u go 2 port valks at the time the zerg hits you with like 2 grps of hydras and 5-10 lurks. If he uses drop, things even get more messy for u as u have to turtle like shit while the zerg can keep the pressure up and expo like hell. Damn, even humiliation tactics like throwing in queens with broodling for the tanks work against someone investing that much eco in valks so early on. The argument "Hydra/Lurk rape the shit out of you" is getting tiresome. Why would you believe that's true? A giant mass of tanks with bio or vulture support would absolutely DESTROY hydra lurk... Tell me why you think this would be different? Why would you think hydra/lurk would work? Do you think you have the gas for this? Getting the hydra upgrades, the lurker upgrade, the Carapace and +1 attack? Keep in mind the fact that your overlords have to be above hydras at ALL times. Suggesting drops vs valkyries, where you can scout the entire map at all times, and can kill overlords in 2-3 seconds, just shows me how little I should be listening to your comments. You easily have the ECO off 2-base to go either MnM/Valk or Tank/Valk. dude maybe i should just stop responding to you but if u really have to throw the "just shows me how little bla" card i cant refrain myself from telling you what I really think. I checked up ur accs on iccup and seen u have a C high. I am a B- player and was the leader of a league 1 bwcl clan and been playing this game for 6 years. I dunno why u are even arguing with people when u think this build is invincible and go on about how ur tank/vult/mass upgrades/mass everything rape the shit out of every suggestion people throw at you. I mean what do YOU think would rape ur build? Oh right if ur honest to urself u just cant think of anything that beats it cus ur so excited about ur newfound gosu strategy. Also u think chill as a B player would rape it, newsflash: most B level players would rape that strat. To put it in a nutshell: going 2 port is always very risky and unless u do some heavy damage early on ur basically fucked cus u gonna get overwhelmed in midgame (unless its a map like plasma or smth). You wont have those mass tanks/m&m/whatever to hold off a massive Z ground army in the early mid if u went 2 port valks first, if u still doubt it pm me for a 1on1 anytime u like.
STX_SouL_July the ONLY b- German.
Which leads me to believe you aren't truly a b-.
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On October 05 2008 08:29 xenero wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2008 07:14 damenmofa wrote:On October 05 2008 06:41 Nintu wrote:On October 05 2008 00:37 damenmofa wrote:
sorry but no, this is crap against a zerg who knows what hes doing. Like others said, hyd/lurk rape the shit out of you, especially when coupled with drops. U say siege tanks rape hyd/lurk, but I say u can NOT have more than 4-5 Siege Tanks and a group of m&m when u go 2 port valks at the time the zerg hits you with like 2 grps of hydras and 5-10 lurks. If he uses drop, things even get more messy for u as u have to turtle like shit while the zerg can keep the pressure up and expo like hell. Damn, even humiliation tactics like throwing in queens with broodling for the tanks work against someone investing that much eco in valks so early on. The argument "Hydra/Lurk rape the shit out of you" is getting tiresome. Why would you believe that's true? A giant mass of tanks with bio or vulture support would absolutely DESTROY hydra lurk... Tell me why you think this would be different? Why would you think hydra/lurk would work? Do you think you have the gas for this? Getting the hydra upgrades, the lurker upgrade, the Carapace and +1 attack? Keep in mind the fact that your overlords have to be above hydras at ALL times. Suggesting drops vs valkyries, where you can scout the entire map at all times, and can kill overlords in 2-3 seconds, just shows me how little I should be listening to your comments. You easily have the ECO off 2-base to go either MnM/Valk or Tank/Valk. dude maybe i should just stop responding to you but if u really have to throw the "just shows me how little bla" card i cant refrain myself from telling you what I really think. I checked up ur accs on iccup and seen u have a C high. I am a B- player and was the leader of a league 1 bwcl clan and been playing this game for 6 years. I dunno why u are even arguing with people when u think this build is invincible and go on about how ur tank/vult/mass upgrades/mass everything rape the shit out of every suggestion people throw at you. I mean what do YOU think would rape ur build? Oh right if ur honest to urself u just cant think of anything that beats it cus ur so excited about ur newfound gosu strategy. Also u think chill as a B player would rape it, newsflash: most B level players would rape that strat. To put it in a nutshell: going 2 port is always very risky and unless u do some heavy damage early on ur basically fucked cus u gonna get overwhelmed in midgame (unless its a map like plasma or smth). You wont have those mass tanks/m&m/whatever to hold off a massive Z ground army in the early mid if u went 2 port valks first, if u still doubt it pm me for a 1on1 anytime u like. You didn't answer how you can get enough gas to sustain HydraLurk upgrades, or any of his other questions.
like the idea keep trying and twinking it
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On October 05 2008 09:38 GunsofthePatriots wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2008 18:44 eth0x wrote:
Ridiculous. BoxeR just may have revolutionized Starcraft once again. Many other players have done this before BoxeR.
yeah i think we should call this the "bisu build"
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damenmofa does have a point. Even with cloaked wraiths, starting out 2 port is susceptible to a mid game attack straight into your natural.
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On October 05 2008 09:41 d(O.o)a wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2008 07:14 damenmofa wrote:On October 05 2008 06:41 Nintu wrote:On October 05 2008 00:37 damenmofa wrote:
sorry but no, this is crap against a zerg who knows what hes doing. Like others said, hyd/lurk rape the shit out of you, especially when coupled with drops. U say siege tanks rape hyd/lurk, but I say u can NOT have more than 4-5 Siege Tanks and a group of m&m when u go 2 port valks at the time the zerg hits you with like 2 grps of hydras and 5-10 lurks. If he uses drop, things even get more messy for u as u have to turtle like shit while the zerg can keep the pressure up and expo like hell. Damn, even humiliation tactics like throwing in queens with broodling for the tanks work against someone investing that much eco in valks so early on. The argument "Hydra/Lurk rape the shit out of you" is getting tiresome. Why would you believe that's true? A giant mass of tanks with bio or vulture support would absolutely DESTROY hydra lurk... Tell me why you think this would be different? Why would you think hydra/lurk would work? Do you think you have the gas for this? Getting the hydra upgrades, the lurker upgrade, the Carapace and +1 attack? Keep in mind the fact that your overlords have to be above hydras at ALL times. Suggesting drops vs valkyries, where you can scout the entire map at all times, and can kill overlords in 2-3 seconds, just shows me how little I should be listening to your comments. You easily have the ECO off 2-base to go either MnM/Valk or Tank/Valk. dude maybe i should just stop responding to you but if u really have to throw the "just shows me how little bla" card i cant refrain myself from telling you what I really think. I checked up ur accs on iccup and seen u have a C high. I am a B- player and was the leader of a league 1 bwcl clan and been playing this game for 6 years. I dunno why u are even arguing with people when u think this build is invincible and go on about how ur tank/vult/mass upgrades/mass everything rape the shit out of every suggestion people throw at you. I mean what do YOU think would rape ur build? Oh right if ur honest to urself u just cant think of anything that beats it cus ur so excited about ur newfound gosu strategy. Also u think chill as a B player would rape it, newsflash: most B level players would rape that strat. To put it in a nutshell: going 2 port is always very risky and unless u do some heavy damage early on ur basically fucked cus u gonna get overwhelmed in midgame (unless its a map like plasma or smth). You wont have those mass tanks/m&m/whatever to hold off a massive Z ground army in the early mid if u went 2 port valks first, if u still doubt it pm me for a 1on1 anytime u like. STX_SouL_July the ONLY b- German. Which leads me to believe you aren't truly a b-.
duh i have been b- the past 3 or 4 seasons now, last season on 2 accounts. No im not B- this season yet cus i didnt play more than 30-40 games till now. Im confident I will hit B- again though, since its relatively easy to get there. I wont get further though without ridiculous mass gaming since the change of -100 points per loss on B levels makes it pretty tough to keep advancing.
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The big problem is that they still die to just two scourges.
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meh i tried it, and lost both games to D+/C- players, and im a C+ terran myself.
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On October 05 2008 07:14 damenmofa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2008 06:41 Nintu wrote:On October 05 2008 00:37 damenmofa wrote:
sorry but no, this is crap against a zerg who knows what hes doing. Like others said, hyd/lurk rape the shit out of you, especially when coupled with drops. U say siege tanks rape hyd/lurk, but I say u can NOT have more than 4-5 Siege Tanks and a group of m&m when u go 2 port valks at the time the zerg hits you with like 2 grps of hydras and 5-10 lurks. If he uses drop, things even get more messy for u as u have to turtle like shit while the zerg can keep the pressure up and expo like hell. Damn, even humiliation tactics like throwing in queens with broodling for the tanks work against someone investing that much eco in valks so early on. The argument "Hydra/Lurk rape the shit out of you" is getting tiresome. Why would you believe that's true? A giant mass of tanks with bio or vulture support would absolutely DESTROY hydra lurk... Tell me why you think this would be different? Why would you think hydra/lurk would work? Do you think you have the gas for this? Getting the hydra upgrades, the lurker upgrade, the Carapace and +1 attack? Keep in mind the fact that your overlords have to be above hydras at ALL times. Suggesting drops vs valkyries, where you can scout the entire map at all times, and can kill overlords in 2-3 seconds, just shows me how little I should be listening to your comments. You easily have the ECO off 2-base to go either MnM/Valk or Tank/Valk. dude maybe i should just stop responding to you but if u really have to throw the "just shows me how little bla" card i cant refrain myself from telling you what I really think. I checked up ur accs on iccup and seen u have a C high. I am a B- player and was the leader of a league 1 bwcl clan and been playing this game for 6 years. I dunno why u are even arguing with people when u think this build is invincible and go on about how ur tank/vult/mass upgrades/mass everything rape the shit out of every suggestion people throw at you. I mean what do YOU think would rape ur build? Oh right if ur honest to urself u just cant think of anything that beats it cus ur so excited about ur newfound gosu strategy. Also u think chill as a B player would rape it, newsflash: most B level players would rape that strat. To put it in a nutshell: going 2 port is always very risky and unless u do some heavy damage early on ur basically fucked cus u gonna get overwhelmed in midgame (unless its a map like plasma or smth). You wont have those mass tanks/m&m/whatever to hold off a massive Z ground army in the early mid if u went 2 port valks first, if u still doubt it pm me for a 1on1 anytime u like.
I don't think this build is invincible. Read the OP. I quite bluntly said that I'm not sure of it's strength yet. That's why I made this thread.
What do I think would rape my build? I've already said. For Tank/valk, plague. For Valk/Bioship, Plague/darkswarm/lurkers. One of the weaknesses of this build is that it has very little early game presence. Atleast, from my experiments, that's been the case. This allows the zerg to expand quite liberally and allows for fast tech.
The fact that you're a B- means nothing to me. You still present arguments with very little carrying evidence. You're just blindly theory-crafting and throwing flames.
Another weakness of the build is it's susceptability to early timing attacks by Zerg, if they prepare and scout the build. My friend Vyzhis was helping me theorycraft on this build a lot and he is a damn good ZvT player.
Since I've been really busy with work and other things, I've been unable to sit down and do more refining and I probably won't get a chance until tomorrow afternoon. I can't wait to try it more. =D
If I find that I am able to refine the build enough to make it safe and practical, I will make another video with some more specific information. Until then, I'd love it if other people tried it aswell, and posted their replays/theories/etc..
Thanks for all the support and comments by the way guys. Check out my other videos aswell guys! I also plan to buy a new mic soon or to somehow find a way to fix that breathing/sound quality problem. =D
So, I'd love to hear more suggestions or problems with the build. Please think it through though! Also, post replays of your attempts and such. =D
Edit: Oh, and I've raped enough B- Zerg's playing standard to not be intimidated by your rank-dropping. Just because your high-rank is higher than mine, doesn't mean I won't ask for evidence and reasoning from your posts. You're not Boxer. You're B-. B- doesn't buy you much so you still have to make sense when you speak.
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On October 05 2008 10:57 meegrean wrote:
The big problem is that they still die to just two scourges.
When you get enough, the scourge die pretty much instantly, as you can see in game2 in my video. You can also use your surplus of minerals to keep MnM nearby to shoot down scourge. Valks are pretty fast. =)
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16950 Posts
Nintu wrote:.
Another weakness of the build is it's susceptability to early timing attacks by Zerg, if they prepare and scout the build. My friend Vyzhis was helping me theorycraft on this build a lot and he is a damn good ZvT player.
This is kind of what I was going for in my later posts >_>...an early-mid game hanbang attack once they have the proper intelligence would very hard to defend against.
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On October 05 2008 11:37 Empyrean wrote:Show nested quote +Nintu wrote:.
Another weakness of the build is it's susceptability to early timing attacks by Zerg, if they prepare and scout the build. My friend Vyzhis was helping me theorycraft on this build a lot and he is a damn good ZvT player.
This is kind of what I was going for in my later posts >_>...an early-mid game hanbang attack once they have the proper intelligence would very hard to defend against.
Terran can adapt to this aswell. Terran can prepare for this if their build is scouted or if they scout this sort of play coming from Z. Most 1rax FE builds are susceptible to this stuff though.
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I would say this is only viable against D to D+, nothing higher. The build order isn't efficient and there are so many holes to it.
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On October 05 2008 11:52 LegendaryDreams wrote:
I would say this is only viable against D to D+, nothing higher. The build order isn't efficient and there are so many holes to it.
Please elaborate as to not make this a terrible post?
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Sorry, to be on topic: Valkyries are only effective if your opponent is going mass mutas (3 hatch muta) instead of the traditional lurker / ling. If zergs gain a slightly advantage and takes some extra expos, their muta count will be way too intimidating for a terran mnm army, which is when the viability of a valkyrie actually takes part in.
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On October 05 2008 12:00 LegendaryDreams wrote:
Sorry, to be on topic: Valkyries are only effective if your opponent is going mass mutas (3 hatch muta) instead of the traditional lurker / ling. If zergs gain a slightly advantage and takes some extra expos, their muta count will be way too intimidating for a terran mnm army, which is when the viability of a valkyrie actually takes part in.
Watch the videos and read the OP. THEN you can post again in this thread.
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On October 05 2008 12:05 d(O.o)a wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2008 12:00 LegendaryDreams wrote:
Sorry, to be on topic: Valkyries are only effective if your opponent is going mass mutas (3 hatch muta) instead of the traditional lurker / ling. If zergs gain a slightly advantage and takes some extra expos, their muta count will be way too intimidating for a terran mnm army, which is when the viability of a valkyrie actually takes part in. Watch the videos and read the OP. THEN you can post again in this thread.
QFT. =D
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
Yeah i would like to see the results of this vs muta but i feel that with the zerg constantly having to worry about ovi production that the results would be similar. Need day[9] in on this imo.
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On October 05 2008 12:33 Kennigit wrote:
Yeah i would like to see the results of this vs muta but i feel that with the zerg constantly having to worry about ovi production that the results would be similar. Need day[9] in on this imo.
Valks vs Muta are just rape, even with spread. Better than sair vs muta because you can't surround valkyries. Their attack AoE is just a giant wide range.
We need everyone involved in this discussion. =D
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On October 05 2008 12:45 Nintu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2008 12:33 Kennigit wrote:
Yeah i would like to see the results of this vs muta but i feel that with the zerg constantly having to worry about ovi production that the results would be similar. Need day[9] in on this imo. Valks vs Muta are just rape, even with spread. Better than sair vs muta because you can't surround valkyries. Their attack AoE is just a giant wide range. We need everyone involved in this discussion. =D
A minor issue is that if you stand right on top of the valks they glitch up and fire weird/slow
but yeah i beat a friend using the tank version vs. his 2hatch muta... though he's an IRL friend who is like D-
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The way i see it going valkyries is a counter to mutas and thats it, it is a timing thing and if you do it right you can just destroy their mutas+ovies and gain an advantage enough to win easily.
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EPT
