Pretty much everyone has seen Boxer's use of Valkyries against Baxter on gomtv. Being entirely inspired by his brilliant performance, I took it upon myself to give the unit a careful examination. I realize that there are other Valkyrie topics on TL but I made this one to offer a little bit more than simply theory crafting.
I decided to give it a go against Iccup but instead of just trying 1-base builds like Boxer, I also tried standard 1rax FE into 2port valk with early +1.
I Recorded both games and edited them into 1 commentated FPvod, where I discuss a bit about my build, and show the highlights/results they got. For those who don't watch, I can write about them aswell.
Interesting points:
It's pretty much PvZ but as Terran.
Spore defense does very little because of Valkyries high life. Just ignore them.
They kill overlords MUCH faster than 2port wraith.
They are very expensive, but +1 attack makes them much more cost effective.
Most Zerg players will have NO idea what to do.
A fun way to abuse D through C rank iccuppers. >
<Game 1> The first game I show is a standard 1-rax FE into 2port valk with early +1. The general idea of this build is to pretty much just go Valk/Tank. The opponent tried to counter my valks with Hydra, which my tanks quite rightly countered. The overlord harass coupled with the Siege tank abuse made it incredibly convincing.
Conclusion of Game 1: Siege tanks on Blue storm are just insane, especially when you have about 40 of them. Everyone already knows this. But when the zerg is spending so much minerals on replacing overlords, I can't imagine a zerg producing enough lings to ever pose a problem to the tanks. Air units are out of the question when valks get going with upgrades. Dark swarm does NOTHING. Ultralisks did nothing.
Clearly if the Zerg player was better and didn't get flustered and confused by what he was seeing, he could have played it a lot better. Never the less, he was C- and was too confused to react appropriately.
<Game 2> Game 2 was against a better opponent who started spire and tried to counter with Scourge. Through my experimentation, Scourge are a decent counter to valks because their damage isn't instant. What I DID find though, is that once you get a good group going (With +1), like Corsair critical mass, Scourge do very little, if any damage at all. This game was my first game doing Valkyries so I Was unprepared on how I should follow the Valkyrie Harass. I ended up stumbling upon Dropships with MnM with Valkyrie escort. Honestly, It sounds retarded. If I wasn't me, and read what I just wrote, I'd be lolling pretty hard. But.. It actually worked. He was a C Zerg, and much like my other opponent, he just didn't know HOW to react. It's very difficult to gauge just what is necessary to counter such an obscure strategy.
Conclusion of Game 2: It's absolutely ridiculous. He had total map control with 4 gas and hive tech, but he was just really unprepared. In reality, The first half of this game was total shit for me, as I was still trying to figure out how to make this work. I came to the conclusion that through practice and precision, I could refine the build to be cleaner and more realistic.
I was told "It's the kind of build that only works against somebody once." which isn't all that untrue. It's the sort of strategy that just forces the opponent to play in an uncomfortable place. I can't imagine any Zerg having experience against these kind of builds which is your initial advantage with this sort of build. Though I know better Zerg players would have destroyed me and my attempts, I still felt like it was an entertaining and interesting experience.
I'm fully prepared for the negative comments I will probably receive. I know you think that if you were the Zerg, you would have played better and reacted more appropriately. I'm just curious to see if anybody else has made attempts at builds like this.
Also, I hope people find the video entertaining. =D
*I'm NOT saying that this is some super perfect, super effective build that somehow eluded all progamers for years as I discovered it. One of the best parts about this build is simply that nobody will have practice against it so they don't know how to react. I wanna hear about other Valkyrie stories, Link progamers using them, and discuss modern viability. I don't have faith in the build, or feel passionately about it, I just enjoyed doing it and am curious about it's viability.*
Wow you actually made a video. That is awesome thanks. I don't see why you think the dropship with marines and valk escort was so crazy. That is sort of what boxer was going for in game 1. Anyway, I'm glad you had fun with it.
The sprite limit will never come into play in a real 1v1.
I experimented with valks a bit a few months ago and one of the main things I noticed is that they're REALLY frustrating to control. Half the time you'll spam right click to try and get them to move and they refuse to do it. Half your group will go and the other half will sit there getting wrecked by hydras/spores/scourge while firing at an overlord and you've just lost a massive investment
i think valkyries are good as addition to your army. but i don't think they're worth the price they cost if you want to use them as your "main unit" (like corsairs e.g). that's just my opinion. but when you watch boxers games against this zerg player at gom, you will notice that the valks don't really do too much (beside the fact that the zerg player seems pretty confused). it's always nice to see units rarely used in games that matter. but often you just realize why they are almost never used
I tryed this same strategy by myself (I actually thought I invented it but whatever..) in standard maps like othello and blue storm. If opponent doesn't know what you're going to do is good but pay attention to a couple of things:
1)the bunker you make must be protected with a a good buildings disposition, remember that you don't have anything beside that for a long time. In fact i've lost tons of times to mass speedlings, but as I said, if you study some ling proof walls in front of the building, or not necessarily ling proof but then be ready with scvs, you should be safe, remember also to place your bunker so that it covers the mineral line of your nat.
2)Versus a 2 hatch muta your valkyries should pop out some seconds later than mutas, so a couple of turrets on each mineral line should be enough, since as soon as 2 valkys are out, with turret support you should be safe.
3)Versus a 3 hach muta you have 2 valkys out sooner than Z mutas, but I suggest you NOT to lead towards Z bases, not before you have 4 valkys at least, because 9 mutas are still to much for 2 valkys, if you try to hit and run i've experienced that valkys freeze for a second before moving back, I dunno why, so you really risk to lose them both.
4)While you mass valkys you should also develop siege tech and mass tanks, you should have the gas for this. The best follow up i've experienced is to tank-bunker your way to the 3rd expansion without adding producion facilities, then mass whatever you like.
On October 04 2008 18:03 UbRi wrote: I tryed this same strategy by myself (I actually thought I invented it but whatever..) in standard maps like othello and blue storm. If opponent doesn't know what you're going to do is good but pay attention to a couple of things:
1)the bunker you make must be protected with a a good buildings disposition, remember that you don't have anything beside that for a long time. In fact i've lost tons of times to mass speedlings, but as I said, if you study some ling proof walls in front of the building, or not necessarily ling proof but then be ready with scvs, you should be safe, remember also to place your bunker so that it covers the mineral line of your nat.
2)Versus a 2 hatch muta your valkyries should pop out some seconds later than mutas, so a couple of turrets on each mineral line should be enough, since as soon as 2 valkys are out, with turret support you should be safe.
3)Versus a 3 hach muta you have 2 valkys out sooner than Z mutas, but I suggest you NOT to lead towards Z bases, not before you have 4 valkys at least, because 9 mutas are still to much for 2 valkys, if you try to hit and run i've experienced that valkys freeze for a second before moving back, I dunno why, so you really risk to lose them both.
4)While you mass valkys you should also develop siege tech and mass tanks, you should have the gas for this. The best follow up i've experienced is to tank-bunker your way to the 3rd expansion without adding producion facilities, then mass whatever you like.
1)Minerals aren't the problem. You easily have enough to make tons of rines and bunkers, unless you mean really early on speedlings. Inwhich case, all FE builds are susceptable to that.
2)completely agree.
3)Agree completely. In the video I did scout with one of my first ones just to see whats up. But you're right, you need a good group of them before they can handle themselves out there agaisnt muts and scourge.
4) That's exactly what I did in the first game shown in my video. =D
something else I just remembered. I have a friend who used to do valk/vult in TvZ play/obs games for fun, and generally unless they did something really early to shut him down it'd just brutalize everything (I mean, play/obs games so probably like D to C- level so not that high and he was probably about B- or so). It requires really careful watch from the Zerg because they have to make sure they dont stumble into mines and that they don't overextend their overlords away from their hydras. And you end up with like 80 billion vultures so you can suicide groups of them to kill his overlords and limit his map control, you can raid expansions and shit so easily and you already have starports so you can drop them all over his expos. Absolutely hilarious to watch people struggle against it. So yeah, I'd recommend mixing vults into your build.
Very awesome clip, very well done and well commented. Obv Valk are interesting. I tried similar build myself a couple of times but limited the no. of Valk to like 2 or 3 to fend off muta harass, see how that works. The thing, I guess though, is that this maybe only works because the Z doesn't know what to do. This strategy may evolve and develop and Z will figure out what is the best counter and than the question that remains is will this build still be effective. For instance, in early Sair vs Hydra games, Z often protects his Ovies with a hyrda group under/near it. I hardly saw that happen in the games you demonstrated (it was ridiculous how you got to snipe a clump of liek 8+ ovies without losing a single valk at times), So yer, definitely intreresting, thanks for sharing, but I guess only time will tell how effective this will prove
On October 04 2008 18:25 Pholon wrote: Very awesome clip, very well done and well commented. Obv Valk are interesting. I tried similar build myself a couple of times but limited the no. of Valk to like 2 or 3 to fend off muta harass, see how that works. The thing, I guess though, is that this maybe only works because the Z doesn't know what to do. This strategy may evolve and develop and Z will figure out what is the best counter and than the question that remains is will this build still be effective. For instance, in early Sair vs Hydra games, Z often protects his Ovies with a hyrda group under/near it. I hardly saw that happen in the games you demonstrated (it was ridiculous how you got to snipe a clump of liek 8+ ovies without losing a single valk at times), So yer, definitely intreresting, thanks for sharing, but I guess only time will tell how effective this will prove
Yeah, that's part of the problem. The issue for zerg is whether to spread or clump. If you clump you can protect with hydras as you say, but once I get like 8 valks, It takes about 2 seconds to kill every single one of them, then fly away. If they spread, they have no chance of defending them with units though, so I don't know. Perhaps +1 air carapace with hydra/ling? Fast plague would be really good vs tanks and valks too. =D
It's a fun strat but 2 port valk after a 1 rax FE is just gonna get completely raped by a competent zerg, they are too slow and too expensive
Wraiths are much better due to mobility, speed, and cloak. Once a valk starts firing, you can't pull back either.
It's true that tanks + valks can own the zerg but you really need to catch the zerg 1000000% off guard and get a massive lead for it to work. If you don't get a huge lead hydras will still pwn your tank valk army alone, throw in a few lings, that's fine too. Even spire play with good scourge cloning can own valks, especially with good micro when you scourge from behind due to valks not being able to cancel their long and drawn out attack animation
On October 04 2008 17:51 sqwert wrote: pros dont use it becuase theres a pixel limit thing on sc that limits the valkyrie's potentials.
right?
That only matters if you play on fastest maps.
This is incorrect when it comes to valks. They use a ton of sprites, it doesn't require anywhere near the amount of crap that's on a FPM to stop them from firing
Zergs should be well prepared, since it's like u said countering Corsairs in PvZ, except easier. Cosair are more agile, don't suffer from delays, and since they are medium sized they can take almost the same amount of damage from hydras. If you go 2 port valks how do you exactly want to deal with mass lurkers+hydras? You'll be low on tanks + no gols to support. Mines work only if your opponent is stupid and does not know how to suicide ling, hell even mass hydras with attack move do the job right. Tank + vulture doesn't work in TvZ, mostly because of mutas, although hydra + ling are good enough.
On October 04 2008 18:35 NoobsOfWrath wrote: It's a fun strat but 2 port valk after a 1 rax FE is just gonna get completely raped by a competent zerg, they are too slow and too expensive
Wraiths are much better due to mobility, speed, and cloak. Once a valk starts firing, you can't pull back either.
It's true that tanks + valks can own the zerg but you really need to catch the zerg 1000000% off guard and get a massive lead for it to work. If you don't get a huge lead hydras will still pwn your tank valk army alone, throw in a few lings, that's fine too. Even spire play with good scourge cloning can own valks, especially with good micro when you scourge from behind due to valks not being able to cancel their long and drawn out attack animation
On October 04 2008 17:51 sqwert wrote: pros dont use it becuase theres a pixel limit thing on sc that limits the valkyrie's potentials.
right?
That only matters if you play on fastest maps.
This is incorrect when it comes to valks. They use a ton of sprites, it doesn't require anywhere near the amount of crap that's on a FPM to stop them from firing
I've never seen valks fail to fire on a non-UMS or BGH/FMP map. And that game was a 200 supply vs 1?? supply endgame in the video.
Both Zerg's scouted it and "prepared" for it. They weren't terrible players, just off-guard. You can say the same about corsairs, it just takes micro to come at all angles against corsairs too. Valks are a little weaker vs scourge than corsairs, but protoss doesn't have 100 supply of siege tanks and 30 supply of MnM beneath them.
On October 04 2008 18:47 LastWish wrote: Zergs should be well prepared, since it's like u said countering Corsairs in PvZ, except easier. Cosair are more agile, don't suffer from delays, and since they are medium sized they can take almost the same amount of damage from hydras. If you go 2 port valks how do you exactly want to deal with mass lurkers+hydras? You'll be low on tanks + no gols to support. Mines work only if your opponent is stupid and does not know how to suicide ling, hell even mass hydras with attack move do the job right. Tank + vulture doesn't work in TvZ, mostly because of mutas, although hydra + ling are good enough.
Corsairs don't have siege tanks and marines beneath them. Marines with instant damage rather than goon's delayed damage makes protecting them quite easy. Plus, when you get a lot, they just destroy scourge. Valks have a lot of life aswell for vs spore or hydra. Tanks rape lurkers ezmode, are you kidding? Attack-move hydras does not work against siege tanks. I'm sorry.
Tank+Vulture doesn't work because of mutas? That's sorta what valkyries are there for. :o
As for Wraiths. Wraiths die in like 2 hits. Valkyries have MUCH more life, do much more damage to air (in AoE aswell) and take MUCH less micro than cloak/wraith micro. Wraiths have their own style in TvZ. Valks fulfill a different role in this video/concept and they do it much better than wraiths would.
I remember years ago when i was quite noob and did fast expo build before it was really the standart, i used to do some early 2 port valkyries and i could own badly some guys who had about my level , guys that i had more difficulties to win against when i played more standart. If u can make like 10 valk +1 it becomes a nightmare for ovis. Now i was thinking theses days , after having seen many vods on that imba map ( i dont remember the name but it s the map shared with zerg eggs) : terran fe into wraith then valk support , what about making standart fe + 1 starport valk ( + the usual mm) to totally cancel the muta harrass?
My post wasn't meant to comment on your clips, in fact I admit i didn't even whatch them, I was just sharing my personal experiences while doing this strategy
EPT
