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On October 05 2008 06:28 d(O.o)a wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2008 06:24 Empyrean wrote:
Haha, I've tried this a long time ago when I still attempted to play Terran. Obviously I didn't have the execution you did so I failed miserably ;D
Anyway, will you be releasing these replays anytime soon?
One thing that you may wish to address is the potential use of Devs+Hydras+Lings against your build. Devourers and a few Mutalisks pretty much wreck enemy air, but it really isn't used much because of the huge opportunity cost for teching Devs and actually spending money on them. But hey, it might end up saving the Zerg money by having a relatively lower cost in replacing the Overlords and the fact that the Terran spent lots of money getting upgrades and a large number of Valks. So perhaps in this case, Devs/Mutas could be effective? Perhaps even Guards? It'd take a massive amount of economy to support it, though...it's all just random theorycraft. Just throwing things out there. If this zerg did this it is still very easy for the terran to transition into gols/tanks
Not really. Starting goliath production would take so many factories. A lot more than you'd realistically have if you went 2 port valk. You would never get enough of an army to fight off gaurd/muta. You pretty much have to stick with valks if they went gaurd/muta. MAYBE transition into cloaked wraiths...
I still don't think it's an issue.
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16974 Posts
On October 05 2008 06:30 Nintu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2008 06:24 Empyrean wrote:
Haha, I've tried this a long time ago when I still attempted to play Terran. Obviously I didn't have the execution you did so I failed miserably ;D
Anyway, will you be releasing these replays anytime soon?
One thing that you may wish to address is the potential use of Devs+Hydras+Lings against your build. Devourers and a few Mutalisks pretty much wreck enemy air, but it really isn't used much because of the huge opportunity cost for teching Devs and actually spending money on them. But hey, it might end up saving the Zerg money by having a relatively lower cost in replacing the Overlords and the fact that the Terran spent lots of money getting upgrades and a large number of Valks. So perhaps in this case, Devs/Mutas could be effective? Perhaps even Guards? It'd take a massive amount of economy to support it, though...it's all just random theorycraft. Just throwing things out there. Devs are so far up the tech tree. After hive, needing greater spire. In the meantime I'm ripping everything to shit. You need a counter before greater spire, hydras, spores, scourge, something. Scourge are alright until he get's mnm or like 7 valks. By then you're just screwed unless you've invested in some sort've defense. It also means you'd be playing very defensively and passively, while you wait for your counter to kick in. Also, my valkyrie upgrades and production would start long before zerg upgrades and devourers. By the time devourers are up, my numbers and upgrades would just totally rape, in my opinion.
True, I suppose. Greater Spire is the highest point on the Zerg tech tree :/
How do you react to the Zergs who suicide an Overlord in to scout, catch your fast 2 port and realize you're going valks, and instantly ramp up Hydra/Ling production in just one overwhelming attack at your natural while sacrificing all his Overlords in the process?
(more theorycraft).
I'm really looking forward to someone like, say, Chill comment on how he'd react.
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On October 05 2008 00:37 damenmofa wrote:
sorry but no, this is crap against a zerg who knows what hes doing. Like others said, hyd/lurk rape the shit out of you, especially when coupled with drops. U say siege tanks rape hyd/lurk, but I say u can NOT have more than 4-5 Siege Tanks and a group of m&m when u go 2 port valks at the time the zerg hits you with like 2 grps of hydras and 5-10 lurks. If he uses drop, things even get more messy for u as u have to turtle like shit while the zerg can keep the pressure up and expo like hell. Damn, even humiliation tactics like throwing in queens with broodling for the tanks work against someone investing that much eco in valks so early on.
The argument "Hydra/Lurk rape the shit out of you" is getting tiresome. Why would you believe that's true? A giant mass of tanks with bio or vulture support would absolutely DESTROY hydra lurk... Tell me why you think this would be different? Why would you think hydra/lurk would work? Do you think you have the gas for this? Getting the hydra upgrades, the lurker upgrade, the Carapace and +1 attack? Keep in mind the fact that your overlords have to be above hydras at ALL times.
Suggesting drops vs valkyries, where you can scout the entire map at all times, and can kill overlords in 2-3 seconds, just shows me how little I should be listening to your comments.
You easily have the ECO off 2-base to go either MnM/Valk or Tank/Valk.
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16974 Posts
What I think I'm going for here is that before your Valkyrie production reaches an overwhelming point, the Zerg player has an absolute advantage in economy and units, since you're sacrificing those for tech. If the Zerg is smart and has constant observation of your base, say, with random Zergling scouts realizing your nat doesn't show evidence of lots of MM/Tank or even with a random suicide Overlord, he'll realize you're going for massive tech and can react accordingly.
If the Zerg decides to suicide in an Overlord and catches two Starports, both with a Control Tower along with an armory somewhere in the base upgrading but only one Factory, he'll likely deduce Valkyries.
What happens if the Zerg realizes you're gambling on an expensive high tech unit and starts massive production of basic units in an attempt to overwhelm your defenses with his greater economy and unit count before your Valkyries can be effective? Even if your few Valkyries manage to kill his Overlords and he's at, say, 70/23 supply or something, there's still a chance that he can risk everything in just one "hanbang" attack before your own economy and unit production surpasses his.
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On October 05 2008 06:38 Empyrean wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2008 06:30 Nintu wrote:On October 05 2008 06:24 Empyrean wrote:
Haha, I've tried this a long time ago when I still attempted to play Terran. Obviously I didn't have the execution you did so I failed miserably ;D
Anyway, will you be releasing these replays anytime soon?
One thing that you may wish to address is the potential use of Devs+Hydras+Lings against your build. Devourers and a few Mutalisks pretty much wreck enemy air, but it really isn't used much because of the huge opportunity cost for teching Devs and actually spending money on them. But hey, it might end up saving the Zerg money by having a relatively lower cost in replacing the Overlords and the fact that the Terran spent lots of money getting upgrades and a large number of Valks. So perhaps in this case, Devs/Mutas could be effective? Perhaps even Guards? It'd take a massive amount of economy to support it, though...it's all just random theorycraft. Just throwing things out there. Devs are so far up the tech tree. After hive, needing greater spire. In the meantime I'm ripping everything to shit. You need a counter before greater spire, hydras, spores, scourge, something. Scourge are alright until he get's mnm or like 7 valks. By then you're just screwed unless you've invested in some sort've defense. It also means you'd be playing very defensively and passively, while you wait for your counter to kick in. Also, my valkyrie upgrades and production would start long before zerg upgrades and devourers. By the time devourers are up, my numbers and upgrades would just totally rape, in my opinion. True, I suppose. Greater Spire is the highest point on the Zerg tech tree :/ How do you react to the Zergs who suicide an Overlord in to scout, catch your fast 2 port and realize you're going valks, and instantly ramp up Hydra/Ling production in just one overwhelming attack at your natural while sacrificing all his Overlords in the process? (more theorycraft). I'm really looking forward to someone like, say, Chill comment on how he'd react.
In both games the build was scouted... ;;; So Ionno. Obviously in retrospect, they'd be better at defending, especially if they put a lot of thought into it like we are. But reversely, If I sit down and refine the build, I could make it better aswell. Hard to say how it would develop.
Chill is a better Zerg than my players in this video(he's like B, right?), and probably has more experience under his belt. If it was him on the other-end of these builds, he'd probably destroy it. But I wonder if this build was played by a stronger Terran than myself, refined nicely.. Who knows?
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On October 05 2008 06:44 Empyrean wrote:
What I think I'm going for here is that before your Valkyrie production reaches an overwhelming point, the Zerg player has an absolute advantage in economy and units, since you're sacrificing those for tech. If the Zerg is smart and has constant observation of your base, say, with random Zergling scouts realizing your nat doesn't show evidence of lots of MM/Tank or even with a random suicide Overlord, he'll realize you're going for massive tech and can react accordingly.
If the Zerg decides to suicide in an Overlord and catches two Starports, both with a Control Tower along with an armory somewhere in the base upgrading but only one Factory, he'll likely deduce Valkyries.
What happens if the Zerg realizes you're gambling on an expensive high tech unit and starts massive production of basic units in an attempt to overwhelm your defenses with his greater economy and unit count before your Valkyries can be effective? Even if your few Valkyries manage to kill his Overlords and he's at, say, 70/23 supply or something, there's still a chance that he can risk everything in just one "hanbang" attack before your own economy and unit production surpasses his.
Well then you have the option to turtle behind bunkers and Bio. His army will remain stagnant at 70 and be unable to make new units to defend his overlords as they pop. You'll catch up quickly. What I noticed was that Zerg pretty much has to stay in his base to defend his overlords.
Also, 2port add-ons off 2base, which is all they're likely to scout before you kill the overlord, usually means SK Terran. once valks are out, which is pretty freaking early, I can't imagine an overlord making it to my base to suicide in.. ;;;;
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Valkyries in big numbers rape devourers in big numbers
Some people doesnt seem to understand this. Zerg CAN NOT beat terran air with their own air.
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On October 05 2008 06:41 Nintu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2008 00:37 damenmofa wrote:
sorry but no, this is crap against a zerg who knows what hes doing. Like others said, hyd/lurk rape the shit out of you, especially when coupled with drops. U say siege tanks rape hyd/lurk, but I say u can NOT have more than 4-5 Siege Tanks and a group of m&m when u go 2 port valks at the time the zerg hits you with like 2 grps of hydras and 5-10 lurks. If he uses drop, things even get more messy for u as u have to turtle like shit while the zerg can keep the pressure up and expo like hell. Damn, even humiliation tactics like throwing in queens with broodling for the tanks work against someone investing that much eco in valks so early on. The argument "Hydra/Lurk rape the shit out of you" is getting tiresome. Why would you believe that's true? A giant mass of tanks with bio or vulture support would absolutely DESTROY hydra lurk... Tell me why you think this would be different? Why would you think hydra/lurk would work? Do you think you have the gas for this? Getting the hydra upgrades, the lurker upgrade, the Carapace and +1 attack? Keep in mind the fact that your overlords have to be above hydras at ALL times. Suggesting drops vs valkyries, where you can scout the entire map at all times, and can kill overlords in 2-3 seconds, just shows me how little I should be listening to your comments. You easily have the ECO off 2-base to go either MnM/Valk or Tank/Valk.
dude maybe i should just stop responding to you but if u really have to throw the "just shows me how little bla" card i cant refrain myself from telling you what I really think. I checked up ur accs on iccup and seen u have a C high. I am a B- player and was the leader of a league 1 bwcl clan and been playing this game for 6 years. I dunno why u are even arguing with people when u think this build is invincible and go on about how ur tank/vult/mass upgrades/mass everything rape the shit out of every suggestion people throw at you. I mean what do YOU think would rape ur build? Oh right if ur honest to urself u just cant think of anything that beats it cus ur so excited about ur newfound gosu strategy. Also u think chill as a B player would rape it, newsflash: most B level players would rape that strat.
To put it in a nutshell: going 2 port is always very risky and unless u do some heavy damage early on ur basically fucked cus u gonna get overwhelmed in midgame (unless its a map like plasma or smth). You wont have those mass tanks/m&m/whatever to hold off a massive Z ground army in the early mid if u went 2 port valks first, if u still doubt it pm me for a 1on1 anytime u like.
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Dude... If you just made ZvT imbalanced.... You just wait.. SOMETHING will *mysteriously* happen to you and every record of this build ever being created.
Besides that: This made me wish I played T for a few minutes... I wish I offraced well =\.
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On October 05 2008 07:14 damenmofa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2008 06:41 Nintu wrote:On October 05 2008 00:37 damenmofa wrote:
sorry but no, this is crap against a zerg who knows what hes doing. Like others said, hyd/lurk rape the shit out of you, especially when coupled with drops. U say siege tanks rape hyd/lurk, but I say u can NOT have more than 4-5 Siege Tanks and a group of m&m when u go 2 port valks at the time the zerg hits you with like 2 grps of hydras and 5-10 lurks. If he uses drop, things even get more messy for u as u have to turtle like shit while the zerg can keep the pressure up and expo like hell. Damn, even humiliation tactics like throwing in queens with broodling for the tanks work against someone investing that much eco in valks so early on. The argument "Hydra/Lurk rape the shit out of you" is getting tiresome. Why would you believe that's true? A giant mass of tanks with bio or vulture support would absolutely DESTROY hydra lurk... Tell me why you think this would be different? Why would you think hydra/lurk would work? Do you think you have the gas for this? Getting the hydra upgrades, the lurker upgrade, the Carapace and +1 attack? Keep in mind the fact that your overlords have to be above hydras at ALL times. Suggesting drops vs valkyries, where you can scout the entire map at all times, and can kill overlords in 2-3 seconds, just shows me how little I should be listening to your comments. You easily have the ECO off 2-base to go either MnM/Valk or Tank/Valk. dude maybe i should just stop responding to you but if u really have to throw the "just shows me how little bla" card i cant refrain myself from telling you what I really think. I checked up ur accs on iccup and seen u have a C high. I am a B- player and was the leader of a league 1 bwcl clan and been playing this game for 6 years. I dunno why u are even arguing with people when u think this build is invincible and go on about how ur tank/vult/mass upgrades/mass everything rape the shit out of every suggestion people throw at you. I mean what do YOU think would rape ur build? Oh right if ur honest to urself u just cant think of anything that beats it cus ur so excited about ur newfound gosu strategy. Also u think chill as a B player would rape it, newsflash: most B level players would rape that strat. To put it in a nutshell: going 2 port is always very risky and unless u do some heavy damage early on ur basically fucked cus u gonna get overwhelmed in midgame (unless its a map like plasma or smth). You wont have those mass tanks/m&m/whatever to hold off a massive Z ground army in the early mid if u went 2 port valks first, if u still doubt it pm me for a 1on1 anytime u like.
so you are offering him a game knowing his build before the start & u r trying to proof the ineffectiveness of the build in THAT style of game?
P.D: Sorry for my english.
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On October 05 2008 07:24 sovietico wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2008 07:14 damenmofa wrote:On October 05 2008 06:41 Nintu wrote:On October 05 2008 00:37 damenmofa wrote:
sorry but no, this is crap against a zerg who knows what hes doing. Like others said, hyd/lurk rape the shit out of you, especially when coupled with drops. U say siege tanks rape hyd/lurk, but I say u can NOT have more than 4-5 Siege Tanks and a group of m&m when u go 2 port valks at the time the zerg hits you with like 2 grps of hydras and 5-10 lurks. If he uses drop, things even get more messy for u as u have to turtle like shit while the zerg can keep the pressure up and expo like hell. Damn, even humiliation tactics like throwing in queens with broodling for the tanks work against someone investing that much eco in valks so early on. The argument "Hydra/Lurk rape the shit out of you" is getting tiresome. Why would you believe that's true? A giant mass of tanks with bio or vulture support would absolutely DESTROY hydra lurk... Tell me why you think this would be different? Why would you think hydra/lurk would work? Do you think you have the gas for this? Getting the hydra upgrades, the lurker upgrade, the Carapace and +1 attack? Keep in mind the fact that your overlords have to be above hydras at ALL times. Suggesting drops vs valkyries, where you can scout the entire map at all times, and can kill overlords in 2-3 seconds, just shows me how little I should be listening to your comments. You easily have the ECO off 2-base to go either MnM/Valk or Tank/Valk. dude maybe i should just stop responding to you but if u really have to throw the "just shows me how little bla" card i cant refrain myself from telling you what I really think. I checked up ur accs on iccup and seen u have a C high. I am a B- player and was the leader of a league 1 bwcl clan and been playing this game for 6 years. I dunno why u are even arguing with people when u think this build is invincible and go on about how ur tank/vult/mass upgrades/mass everything rape the shit out of every suggestion people throw at you. I mean what do YOU think would rape ur build? Oh right if ur honest to urself u just cant think of anything that beats it cus ur so excited about ur newfound gosu strategy. Also u think chill as a B player would rape it, newsflash: most B level players would rape that strat. To put it in a nutshell: going 2 port is always very risky and unless u do some heavy damage early on ur basically fucked cus u gonna get overwhelmed in midgame (unless its a map like plasma or smth). You wont have those mass tanks/m&m/whatever to hold off a massive Z ground army in the early mid if u went 2 port valks first, if u still doubt it pm me for a 1on1 anytime u like. so you are offering him a game knowing his build before the start & u r trying to proof the ineffectiveness of the build in THAT style of game? P.D: Sorry for my english.
ok im going standard 3 hatch muta and add a den as soon as i send in a ling and see hes not going m&m. now we are on even terms.
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On October 05 2008 07:11 Zoler wrote:
Valkyries in big numbers rape devourers in big numbers
Some people doesnt seem to understand this. Zerg CAN NOT beat terran air with their own air.
Well, that's not entirely true - it maybe a surprise, but if both have all upgrades devourers will win, although it will be close (unless valks are nicely spread out and devourers are very clumped of course).
But still an interesting strategy 
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On October 05 2008 07:14 damenmofa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2008 06:41 Nintu wrote:On October 05 2008 00:37 damenmofa wrote:
sorry but no, this is crap against a zerg who knows what hes doing. Like others said, hyd/lurk rape the shit out of you, especially when coupled with drops. U say siege tanks rape hyd/lurk, but I say u can NOT have more than 4-5 Siege Tanks and a group of m&m when u go 2 port valks at the time the zerg hits you with like 2 grps of hydras and 5-10 lurks. If he uses drop, things even get more messy for u as u have to turtle like shit while the zerg can keep the pressure up and expo like hell. Damn, even humiliation tactics like throwing in queens with broodling for the tanks work against someone investing that much eco in valks so early on. The argument "Hydra/Lurk rape the shit out of you" is getting tiresome. Why would you believe that's true? A giant mass of tanks with bio or vulture support would absolutely DESTROY hydra lurk... Tell me why you think this would be different? Why would you think hydra/lurk would work? Do you think you have the gas for this? Getting the hydra upgrades, the lurker upgrade, the Carapace and +1 attack? Keep in mind the fact that your overlords have to be above hydras at ALL times. Suggesting drops vs valkyries, where you can scout the entire map at all times, and can kill overlords in 2-3 seconds, just shows me how little I should be listening to your comments. You easily have the ECO off 2-base to go either MnM/Valk or Tank/Valk. dude maybe i should just stop responding to you but if u really have to throw the "just shows me how little bla" card i cant refrain myself from telling you what I really think. I checked up ur accs on iccup and seen u have a C high. I am a B- player and was the leader of a league 1 bwcl clan and been playing this game for 6 years. I dunno why u are even arguing with people when u think this build is invincible and go on about how ur tank/vult/mass upgrades/mass everything rape the shit out of every suggestion people throw at you. I mean what do YOU think would rape ur build? Oh right if ur honest to urself u just cant think of anything that beats it cus ur so excited about ur newfound gosu strategy. Also u think chill as a B player would rape it, newsflash: most B level players would rape that strat. To put it in a nutshell: going 2 port is always very risky and unless u do some heavy damage early on ur basically fucked cus u gonna get overwhelmed in midgame (unless its a map like plasma or smth). You wont have those mass tanks/m&m/whatever to hold off a massive Z ground army in the early mid if u went 2 port valks first, if u still doubt it pm me for a 1on1 anytime u like.
You didn't answer how you can get enough gas to sustain HydraLurk upgrades, or any of his other questions.
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On October 05 2008 06:35 Nintu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2008 06:28 d(O.o)a wrote:On October 05 2008 06:24 Empyrean wrote:
Haha, I've tried this a long time ago when I still attempted to play Terran. Obviously I didn't have the execution you did so I failed miserably ;D
Anyway, will you be releasing these replays anytime soon?
One thing that you may wish to address is the potential use of Devs+Hydras+Lings against your build. Devourers and a few Mutalisks pretty much wreck enemy air, but it really isn't used much because of the huge opportunity cost for teching Devs and actually spending money on them. But hey, it might end up saving the Zerg money by having a relatively lower cost in replacing the Overlords and the fact that the Terran spent lots of money getting upgrades and a large number of Valks. So perhaps in this case, Devs/Mutas could be effective? Perhaps even Guards? It'd take a massive amount of economy to support it, though...it's all just random theorycraft. Just throwing things out there. If this zerg did this it is still very easy for the terran to transition into gols/tanks Not really. Starting goliath production would take so many factories. A lot more than you'd realistically have if you went 2 port valk. You would never get enough of an army to fight off gaurd/muta. You pretty much have to stick with valks if they went gaurd/muta. MAYBE transition into cloaked wraiths... I still don't think it's an issue.
Yeah but I'm assuming the valks would scout the greater spire morphing and off 3-6 facts you should have at least 12 gols to support your valks by the time they have devs. Not to mention by the time they've made critical mass zerg air you could easily have the required amount of goliaths.
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Korea (South)3086 Posts
Hoh shit, this seems awesome, I'mma try it out.
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Vatican City State491 Posts
I have been using this build a long time ago and appart from the general lack of timing, my biggest problem was the lack of good way to attack. This build is a great mindfuck, especially if the zerg goes muta and you manage to kill his initial force + score some overlord hits.
The problem starts when they switch to hydra and or if they initially started with hydra - attacking might be very hard, because they can easily flank your army.
I usually used this build on LT, so I followed with a tank drop at the hill near the natural, as well as firebat drops. On other maps I had the problem that they could accumulate hydra/ling/lurker and not allow me to go out of my base. Basically I would be slowly building up my tank numbers; while they would be playing from 2-3 bases (not counting the expo).
Usually I tried to take the islands on LT to increase my money, but it was too slow to start mass tanks (or gollies) - good zergs could just secure their overlords and prepare some flank, while slowly taking the map. I would be dropping of course, but it doesnt work that great vs lurker-hydra-ling for example. Perhaps mnm would do it though.
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come to think of it you would probably even get raped by a lousy 3 hatchling allin, provided u are denied scouting. expo -> 2 port is very very vulnerable to this unless u get acad first.
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HahAHhAha good video!
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
hahah this was a great video. keep making them as you refine it more plz!
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On October 04 2008 18:44 eth0x wrote:
Ridiculous. BoxeR just may have revolutionized Starcraft once again.
Many other players have done this before BoxeR.
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EPT
