Pretty sure you know this but it is because Valikyries need to fire off all their missiles before moving. So only engage when you know there aren't any Hydras or spores.

You can stack the valkries and pull them back while they shoot though using patrol.

Dead9

United States4725 Posts

October 30 2012 02:01 GMT

#322

On October 30 2012 10:05 Pucca wrote:
I'm assuming this would not happened in a 1v1 TvZ?

it shouldn't in any realistic situation
i think the sprite limit is 1000 or 2000, i don't really remember
any unit/building is a sprite and any ranged projectile is a sprite
fun fact: if the sprite limit is reached, buildings and units at the top (topleft i think, might be top right though) have priority, so if you spawn on the top half of the map in zero clutter or fastest you can actually force your opponents to stop building if you build enough overlords. once units start trading you get larvae but they still can't build anything lol

hacklebeast

United States5090 Posts

October 30 2012 02:19 GMT

#323

It's not realistic for it to happen in TvZ because zerg never goes for a 200/200 that is a significant percentage air units. It does come up in TvT though.

ShaLLoW[baY]

Canada12499 Posts

October 30 2012 02:38 GMT

#324

On October 30 2012 11:01 Dead9 wrote:

Show nested quote +

WHAT
REALLY
You never told me this?

don_kyuhote

3006 Posts

October 30 2012 03:18 GMT

#325

valks deserves some more love in TvZ

Fun video, maybe I'll try experiment with it in my D world.

sabas123

Netherlands3122 Posts

October 30 2012 12:13 GMT

#326

On October 30 2012 11:38 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:

Show nested quote +

WHAT
REALLY
You never told me this?

lol, i love bw. so many little and proly alot of unknow facts about the coding^^

Dead9

United States4725 Posts

October 30 2012 21:36 GMT

#327

On October 30 2012 11:38 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:

Show nested quote +

WHAT
REALLY
You never told me this?

i'm the fastest master yo~

Savi[wOk]

United States81 Posts

November 02 2012 20:12 GMT

#328

When your playing a zerg who went 3 hatch mutalisk and noticed that he saved up around 5 or more mutas while transitioning into late game, he might even go for the greater spire and harass your expo on fighting spirit. I think having 2 valks or even more might fend this off pretty economically, and it gives you less to stress about.

Dead9

United States4725 Posts

November 02 2012 21:18 GMT

#329

or u could just get 2 wraiths

Pucca

Taiwan1280 Posts

November 02 2012 22:12 GMT

#330

On November 03 2012 06:18 Dead9 wrote:
or u could just get 2 wraiths

The amount of micro required to kill off those mutes would be too much

Fyrewolf

United States1533 Posts

November 02 2012 22:16 GMT

#331

On November 03 2012 06:18 Dead9 wrote:
or u could just get 2 wraiths

Valkyries are much better against mutas, they're far more durable. Splash damage, 200 hp, and especially the base 2 armor makes it easy for a group of valkyries to deal with a greater number of mutas.

Dead9

United States4725 Posts

November 02 2012 22:30 GMT

#332

but we're talking about guardians here

Fyrewolf

United States1533 Posts

November 03 2012 00:26 GMT

#333

On November 03 2012 07:30 Dead9 wrote:
but we're talking about guardians here

Guardians can't shoot up anyway. Valks will kill them somewhat slower than Wraiths, but will be more economical, as well as being stronger against mutas in the midgame, and you'll still be able to get science vessels easily after a just a handful of valks to irradiate guardians as the main counter anyway.

Dead9

United States4725 Posts

November 03 2012 01:16 GMT

#334

if you're going bio and you're up against guardians without a huge vessel count you're better off going wraiths versus guardians more or less all the time
wraiths don't require an armory, don't require an addon, are a lot cheaper, deal more damage (single target but still), move faster, are microable, can dodge scourge

Fyrewolf

United States1533 Posts

November 03 2012 03:59 GMT

#335

Amory is needed for upgrades anyway, and Valkyries are actually cheaper in the gas for supply, though equally more expensive in minerals for supply, and move just as fast as wraiths, they just need patrol micro while shooting to keep from stopping. If you get to critical mass they can deal with scourge too, but usually having some marines cover them can be enough, and you usually don't need to mass too many of them, much less than you do wraiths. They do require the addon, but it's easy to transition to vessels after getting a handful of valkyries. You don't need to keep making valkyries to counter guardians, you get them to counter the 3 hatch muta, and then those leftover can help while you build up vessel count. They may not do quite as much damage and require some micro to keep from stopping and addons, but the extra utility vs midgame/leftover mutas, less overall gas cost, and smaller amount you actually need than wraiths is useful. Both wraiths and valkyries have their usefulness, it's just a stylistic choice.

Dead9

United States4725 Posts

November 03 2012 04:07 GMT

#336

yes, you can go valkonic or biomech and use valks to counter guardians, but if you're opening bio there's never any reason to go valks versus guards
it's not a stylistic choice, wraiths are just flat out better if you're opening standard bio

Fyrewolf

United States1533 Posts

November 03 2012 04:38 GMT

#337

On November 03 2012 13:07 Dead9 wrote:
yes, you can go valkonic or biomech and use valks to counter guardians, but if you're opening bio there's never any reason to go valks versus guards
it's not a stylistic choice, wraiths are just flat out better if you're opening standard bio

It's using valks to counter 3 hatch muta, and then using leftover valks to help, like I said you don't keep building valks if he does decide to go into guardians. You can get wraiths early to harass zerg too, but the mutas will wipe the floor with them. The wraiths are more offensive early, the valks are more defensive early. You don't decide to start building valkyries when you scout guardians. You just have some left over. If you want to suddenly build something you didn't already have to counter them, obviously wraiths are better. But getting a few valkyries defend against 3 hatch mutalisk harass(pretty standard actually), and then transitioning into vessels works just fine.

Dead9

United States4725 Posts

November 03 2012 05:46 GMT

#338

i guess it wasn't that clear, i meant you can open with valkyries to kill mutas early on and reuse them later to clear out guardians, but otherwise you're better off using wraiths
getting a few valkyries to defend against 3 muta harass isn't very standard with a bio opening, it cuts into vessel production pretty bad

Fyrewolf

United States1533 Posts

November 03 2012 14:27 GMT

#339

The first guy you responded too never mentioned bio, but it does cut a little into vessel production, it's a setback but it's not too bad. Depending on timings I can squeeze out 2-5 valks while I'm securing another base, building science facility, researching vessel abilities, and getting more starports. Vessel cloud is slightly delayed, but it works out. If I didn't already have valks for other situations would definitely go for wraiths, they are better for that specific situation.

Pucca

Taiwan1280 Posts

November 03 2012 20:53 GMT

#340

On November 03 2012 23:27 Fyrewolf wrote:
The first guy you responded too never mentioned bio, but it does cut a little into vessel production, it's a setback but it's not too bad. Depending on timings I can squeeze out 2-5 valks while I'm securing another base, building science facility, researching vessel abilities, and getting more starports. Vessel cloud is slightly delayed, but it works out. If I didn't already have valks for other situations would definitely go for wraiths, they are better for that specific situation.

Have you experimented with this do you have any replays?