On October 23 2008 02:07 avilo wrote: eh, are you guys smoking crack? queens aren't viable vs this...
care to elaborate? what hes saying does make sense, and im not getting what all this hype is about, playing mech in tvz isnt new, when i play mech i never lose to early mutas or hydras or whatever, if i lose its because the zergplayer is better then me and knows to play mech, meaning mass expand and knowing the right unit counters. If people know what your doing theres gaps in the build. the superfunky Fantasy build vs ggplay is very map dependable and its about the vultharras, which nobody seems to be mentioning here. and those valks only serve a defensive purpose early on.
walks are to expensive every new strategy wins you games on d-c level
On October 23 2008 02:07 avilo wrote: eh, are you guys smoking crack? queens aren't viable vs this...
care to elaborate? what hes saying does make sense, and im not getting what all this hype is about, playing mech in tvz isnt new, when i play mech i never lose to early mutas or hydras or whatever, if i lose its because the zergplayer is better then me and knows to play mech, meaning mass expand and knowing the right unit counters. If people know what your doing theres gaps in the build. the superfunky Fantasy build vs ggplay is very map dependable and its about the vultharras, which nobody seems to be mentioning here. and those valks only serve a defensive purpose early on.
walks are to expensive every new strategy wins you games on d-c level
good post ^^ id like to add that, on maps where fantasy build isn't so good, normal mech builds are. for example, look at katrina compared to medusa. vult+dropship harass on medusa is a hell of a lot more effective than on katrina and normal mech sucks on medusa. normal mech is actually (imo) stronger than M&M on katrina. i think if you learn normal mech and fantasy build, and know what maps which build is intended for, you could theoretically mech every game vs zerg. what do you think about that? edit: the valks are meant to Stop harass, not be used To harass, though im sure there's timing windows you can snipe 2-3 ovies. i think you already said this though.
On October 23 2008 05:27 Pyro]v[aniac wrote: the valks are meant to Stop harass, not be used To harass, though im sure there's timing windows you can snipe 2-3 ovies. i think you already said this though.
And who knighted the Valkyries with such roles? The OP clearly showed the player not just harrassing but completely obliterating ovies in several matches. It all just depends on the match.
On October 23 2008 05:27 Pyro]v[aniac wrote: the valks are meant to Stop harass, not be used To harass, though im sure there's timing windows you can snipe 2-3 ovies. i think you already said this though.
And who knighted the Valkyries with such roles? The OP clearly showed the player not just harrassing but completely obliterating ovies in several matches. It all just depends on the match.
im by no means a zerg player and i still think zerg would have an easy time raping that build. i have seen both videos. perhaps if he played players at his own rank midway through season? he even said in 2nd video that he way playing his C ranked friend and he was even off racing.
or maybe you guys did read and are still underestimating sktmetal viability on a variety of maps -.-
This is not just a "1 time build" but the build can be viable as more of a standard strat. tho nintu is doing something diff which may not be as standard for this specific style(aka two starport valks/mm instead of metal).
or maybe you guys did read and are still underestimating sktmetal viability on a variety of maps -.-
This is not just a "1 time build" but the build can be viable as more of a standard strat. tho nintu is doing something diff which may not be as standard for this specific style(aka two starport valks/mm instead of metal).
u didnt read my post, nor days post properly.. Day himself wrote that FANTASYS build is map dependable. valks serve a defensive purpose in that build. u make 2-4 of em. from 1 port-.-
this build is suggesting 2fac2port from 2gas.(yeah my ass 2fax tanks 2port valk off of 2gases) and what ur doing is saying queens suck with no explanation. showing replays from a few games on iccup against players who never playd against that build and arent even his rank, isnt gonna convince me.
i played this build against a player better than me, first game he DID use queens i had 6 of em flying around looking for ovies he ensnared em hydras came, lots of lings>tanks. 2nd game he just massed lings in the beginning, cant see how this build can win against mass lings
well, money into queens usually is money that could have been spent in your econ/tech or massing more muta/hydra/upgrades. Queens are just something you use when you have the macro and army to support yourself already. And by that time, they are inefficient attention-span wise, and money wise. queens obviously can be really good in stalemates where the map is dried out tho, since they are energy based.
vs valks, most T will not commit valkries to attacking you and they won't go "pawn hunting" for overlords with expensive valks, making queens pointless there too. If they put there units in constant danger of being killed over and over, then they aren't playing the build right and of course queens could beat them - cause they aren't good -.- just like mass DA can beat n00bs too.
On October 24 2008 00:06 avilo wrote: well, money into queens usually is money that could have been spent in your econ/tech or massing more muta/hydra/upgrades. Queens are just something you use when you have the macro and army to support yourself already. And by that time, they are inefficient attention-span wise, and money wise. queens obviously can be really good in stalemates where the map is dried out tho, since they are energy based.
vs valks, most T will not commit valkries to attacking you and they won't go "pawn hunting" for overlords with expensive valks, making queens pointless there too. If they put there units in constant danger of being killed over and over, then they aren't playing the build right and of course queens could beat them - cause they aren't good -.- just like mass DA can beat n00bs too.
you just wrote the reasons why queens are *generally* not a good idea, but im talking about this specific scenario versus valks. and well if the valks arent good for killing overlords then lol i dont see the point theres 1 dangerous timespan when valks could be usefull vs air and thats right when the mutas pop. u dont need 12 valks and u certainly dont need 2ports for that
Sorry for the bump, but for thoses who were not convinced valks could be used a very efficient way in tvz, fantasy proved that, even when highly expected, valks work against hydras:
and mutas scourge
fairly well...
I don't know what to think about it. Fantasy seems to like them so much that they really became his trademark.
The advantage of valks compared to vessels is clearly that they are very very very strong against scourges. More vessels you have, harder it is to micro them against scourge. More valks you have and harder it gets to snipe them. Therefore, a control group of valks, if you survive to get it is fucking scary for a zerg player...
Luxury failed to micro his mutalisks properly at key points in the game, which cost him air control in game 2. Not to say that valkryies aren't viable, but the apparent strength of valkyries in this set was far stronger than it could've been if luxury adapted more accordingly.
Really though, I don't see why luxury is getting like 100 mutalisks vs a mnm valkyrie combination (game 3), seeing as you don't get pure mutalisks vs just mnm and you definitely don't get pure mutalisks vs just valkyries. I know luxury's trying to pin fantasy in his base, but it still doesn't seem to make too much sense, as he at no point transitioned into hydralurker, which it seems, would counter this build far more accordingly (especially since fantasy will have little gas for science vessels, and lurkers can hold the cliffs on sin chunpung ryeong quite nicely). Can someone enlighten me?
On March 16 2009 01:50 SerpentFlame wrote: Luxury failed to micro his mutalisks properly at key points in the game, which cost him air control in game 2. Not to say that valkryies aren't viable, but the apparent strength of valkyries in this set was far stronger than it could've been if luxury adapted more accordingly.
Really though, I don't see why luxury is getting like 100 mutalisks vs a mnm valkyrie combination (game 3), seeing as you don't get pure mutalisks vs just mnm and you definitely don't get pure mutalisks vs just valkyries. I know luxury's trying to pin fantasy in his base, but it still doesn't seem to make too much sense, as he at no point transitioned into hydralurker, which it seems, would counter this build far more accordingly (especially since fantasy will have little gas for science vessels, and lurkers can hold the cliffs on sin chunpung ryeong quite nicely). Can someone enlighten me?
I get he didn't know what to do after being raped in game 2 by lurkerlings... He probably thought he could abuse Fantasy's inferior mobility?
I guess the best answer would be to go third thier and then defilers. As Fantasy had no vessels, I don't see how he would have stoped that. But Luxury didn't get defilers in the whole serie.
because of the valks slow time to shoot again the only counter i can think of is snare. once snared a few scourges can take care of valks. im sure good players will find a way to counter the resources needed to make the number of valks.
On March 16 2009 06:50 Mykill wrote: because of the valks slow time to shoot again the only counter i can think of is snare. once snared a few scourges can take care of valks. im sure good players will find a way to counter the resources needed to make the number of valks.
they could abuse the fact that iirc valks cant move nor turn when in the attack animation
hi guys, i am new to this forum, i was just wondering. how you can find what rank you are? because i've been looking through a few posts and they said i am a b ranked toss player or whatever. can someone give me some light here?
hydra/lurk? If the terran invests in 5+ valks, i don't think he's going to be able to get enough gas to support tanks w/ seige. By the time he does, The zerg should be on hive tech and deflier tech should be kicking in soon. Zerg could always just build like 20 hydras for defensive purposes and use a lurker/ling army to face the mnm. idk if this would work though =p
entertaining vods! Not sure if i would work on really great players though, but in your defense your bo isnt totally refined yet. Who knows. Good work overall
EPT
