|
On October 19 2008 00:47 Februarys wrote:
Just Theorycrafting here, but wouldn't going Valkyrie + Metal army require a lot of gas? I really doubt T will have enough gas left over for Vessels which is essential for TvZ in a standard 2 base scenario. If they choose to go for a 3rd gas, I think T will have a hell of a time doing that and since Metal army is so slow, Z can constantly attack multiple bases, drop on main, to take advantage of T mobility correct?
Well, this is all assuming that T followed up with Metal units instead of bionic units with Valkirye
Watch the video, game 1. I do tanks and Valkyries and some bio off 2 gas.
|
On October 19 2008 07:53 Biff The Understudy wrote:
blablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablabla
Theorycrafting my ass and you haven't read the whole thing (have you read anything else than the title, btw?) and, OBVIOUSLY, you haven't watch Fantasy games vs GGPlay, which are the reason why this thread has been resurrected.
Epic fail is epic.
i did read the whole thing and even watched the videos before i posted. he had literally 100 supply of seige tanks. i just don't see how the zerg player managed to let him build up that many seige tanks unless the zerg was incompetent. it takes a lot of time and a lot of gas/expos to build up that many, so the zerg player could have easily attacked the terran's expo instead of staying home trying to defend overlords, and this build would have been broken. the drop ship build is more viable. the tank build is just disaster considering a few zerglings would have quite easily destroyed the terran's economy. and did anyone notice how the zerg in the video was on the defensive against FE terran... zergs defensive against FE terran=fail. and i believe i watched fantasy's games vs ggplay, as i recall seeing some valks,but not valk+tanks. maybe my memory's failing me.
|
i didnt know how strong valks were til recently
mutas do like no damage to them..you need scourge
|
I was like WTF the first time I saw a scourge land on a corsair after chasing it for a good thirty seconds, I always assumed they were equal speed. But yeah.
|
Someone tried valks on me the other day. Easiest ZvT of my life. Scourge are just a KILLER counter to small groups of valkyries, I dunno how you can expect to build a critical mass of valks against a competent zerg player, and even then scourge can still work if he flanks with them and times it well.
|
Korea (South)3086 Posts
On October 20 2008 16:34 Luddite wrote:
Someone tried valks on me the other day. Easiest ZvT of my life. Scourge are just a KILLER counter to small groups of valkyries, I dunno how you can expect to build a critical mass of valks against a competent zerg player, and even then scourge can still work if he flanks with them and times it well.
I think scourges work best right after the initial volley of missiles. But if it's just head on with valkyries (suitable # of them wiith maybe +1?) and scourges, scourges usually get annihilated.
|
On October 19 2008 21:20 c_dog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2008 07:53 Biff The Understudy wrote:
blablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablabla
Theorycrafting my ass and you haven't read the whole thing (have you read anything else than the title, btw?) and, OBVIOUSLY, you haven't watch Fantasy games vs GGPlay, which are the reason why this thread has been resurrected.
Epic fail is epic. i did read the whole thing and even watched the videos before i posted. he had literally 100 supply of seige tanks. i just don't see how the zerg player managed to let him build up that many seige tanks unless the zerg was incompetent. it takes a lot of time and a lot of gas/expos to build up that many, so the zerg player could have easily attacked the terran's expo instead of staying home trying to defend overlords, and this build would have been broken. the drop ship build is more viable. the tank build is just disaster considering a few zerglings would have quite easily destroyed the terran's economy. and did anyone notice how the zerg in the video was on the defensive against FE terran... zergs defensive against FE terran=fail. and i believe i watched fantasy's games vs ggplay, as i recall seeing some valks,but not valk+tanks. maybe my memory's failing me.
You memory is failing you.
|
A lot depends on how you can force the Zerg to react. Realistically speaking, if they know it's coming, like say, if they maphacked, then I do agree that Zerg can EASILY defend it. Scourge can be micro'd to kill them if you have constant vision of them. Though it's true that in a lot of encounters, Scourge get raped by a critical mass of Valks, there are many ways you can sneak in a few scourge to destroy valks, especially in low numbers.
Valks need escorts, but also make great escorts. Coupled with bio for scourge, valks can be insanely effective. Instant damage with short range make marines PERFECT. If they had longer range, then their auto-attack would hit buildings, overlords or Mutalisks. If you fly your valks above marines while scourge are chasing, the scourge are gone, unless the zerg can effectively micro mutalisks to absorb marine hits.
Valks are hit and miss and they rely a lot on how the opponent reacts. You can see this at D through C ranks on iccup. A protoss will go DT's, the Terran will over-react, play too defensively, get too many turrets, etc, and the protoss will simply expand and play a standard macro game. In Starcraft, over-reacting can be just as bad as under-reacting. If the Zerg under-reacts, valks rape all his overlords and he can nolonger produce units. If he over-reacts, you transition into standard play after obtaining only 1-3 valks. There are too many factors to say that the unit or strategy itself is good or bad.
|
If you really want to incorporate valkyries at a cost efficient way, you should watch ggplay vs fantasy @ medusa. It's mainly used for muta defense, but at least you get to use some valks 
|
|
|
dammit back to 4 hatch hydra transition to lair after first attack
|
I've started to exclusively use this SKTmetal (if that's what we're calling it) build/strat every tvz, it's been working out VERY well.
A thing I noticed is that the valkries act just like corsairs (obvious) except they fit that role 20x better than sairs do. Valkries are sheer air domination, especially a control group of 8-12.
The initial vulture/dropship also has a huge role, as day[9] described in his Terran Revolutionist article. It hits that timing window vs 3 hatch b4 mutalisks are out, allowing you to be on equal terms economically with zerg, and vs 2 hatch the vult drop hits just as mutas are popping or starting their way to your base. The dropship forces zerg to chase it down, allowing for you to be 100% safe with x2 valks/gol at home vs 2 hatch muta, or if they do not stop the dship, you hurt them while still being able to defend very well.
Note: The initial vulture/dropship harrass is not necessary or advised vs a Zerg that is attempting to adapt to your fast tech with a 2hat/3hat hydra break build. The pre-emptive T counter to the Z counter of quick hydras is to begin bunkers/marines and siegetank/siegemode rather than vulture/dship harrass off the bat (or at all).
What the valkries allow you to do are multiple things:
1) Nullify muta harrass.
2) Harrass overlords/scout+stop incoming drops like you would with reaver/sair in pvz.
3) Allow Terran to transition into TvP style.
The third thing is just what I've seen developing from my own games that I've played, but it seems like SKTmetal transitions VERY well into a Terran dominated late game.
The initial valkries nullify and stop muta harrass, meaning T now has air superiority, ability to harrass overlords, but more importantly the Zerg is now forced into a ground based hydra/ling/lurker army ala ZvP style.
Economically and in the metagame of the late game, what this means is now instead of having to pump a fuckton of goliaths with tanks, Terran are now able to get additional factory add-ons and use that goliath gas exclusively for tanks, while spending the rest in vultures for mines, just like a T would play TvP. Why is this so good for the Terran lategame?
The reason is now with a fully metal TvP army in a TvZ metagame, you can EASILY fight late-game ultra/ling tech switches. The increased tank mass is favorable vs mass ultras + swarm, and vulture mobility + mass mines make T late game even more solidified, as most Zerg will transition into a fuck ton of ultras when they see you going metal.
Along the same lines in the late game, now that you have a metagame TvP army vs Zerg ultra/ling/swarm+whatever, it also means your valkries are now free to poach as many overlords as you want due to lack of hydra presence. The valkries serve as appropriate AA, and are able to stop scouting (ala corsair pvz scout denial), and the valkries allow your mines to be that much more effective.
By mid-late game, even if your opponent does commit to massive mutalisk numbers+devourers, you simply constantly produce valkries from your starport and will win that battle as well. Not to mention there is nothing stopping you from adapting a couple science vessels into this metal play style.
I'll link two replays for further strategy analysis on this TvZ style. Here's two games, first game the SKTmetal style is used and opponent goes for standard spire opening and then transitions very quickly into hydra. As many people have mentioned, when a Z plays the SKTmetal style the first time, it can catch them off guard.
So, I re-matched the same player with the intention of using the same style, because I was interested to see how the Zerg guy would adapt a counter, and the game turned out to be interesting!
http://www.fighterreplays.com/starcraft/replays/66fd65
http://www.fighterreplays.com/starcraft/replays/016e2c
+ Show Spoiler +The second game has a counter opening to the counter that the Z did. The game felt a lot like a TvP game when I was playing it, and in some aspects like a PvZ
ah, and nice thread nintu too many people are underestimating this T revolution !
|
On October 22 2008 03:00 avilo wrote:
A very detailed and thorough post.
Bravo.
|
...Can't wait to see how Zerg will be balancing this one out.
|
Devourerers really fuck up valkrie rate of fire + plague if T builds many valks past the initial ones in late-game.
|
Korea (South)3086 Posts
I don't think Devourers could be the best viable option. If the Z is cornered so severely if the build is executed well, I don't think you'll have the freedom to tech up so high and have that many resources to spend on mass devourers.
|
Hydra/Queen is the correct counter to this..
not spores, not scourage, not defilers.
Queens ensnare the valks, hydra rapes them while they try to escape.
Then the T will switch to Tanks, you broodling the tank and swarm with hydras..
Hydra shoots mines..
Hell you can even parasite the valk mob if u want to.
If the T switches to MnM for support then you lurker.
|
To expand on this, it should be very easy to ensnare a sitting duck valk after it fires, and then hydras can pick em off.
If the terran tries metal, you broodling any clumps of tanks, so they fire on each other and attack with hydras and lings with any left over minerals.. Sure Broodling is overpriced, but it does have a use for the tanks wasting a shot killing the broodlings and makes the tanks damage each other.
You can say that a valk mob will rape a queen, which this is true but the key to the valk harass strat is their high armor and life. They go in, rape all the overlords and escape with their speed. Ensnare negates this and then that valk mob becomes a liability to one single ensnare, not to mention parasite help keep overlords away from the mob.
|
eh, are you guys smoking crack? queens aren't viable vs this...
|
yes avilo just because you said that it must be true
I actually think queens are the most interesting and effective counter to valkyries. Just handle the metal like youw ould otherwise.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
