EPTI believe this is assuming he went standard 3hatch muta before he scouted your build. After his harass is denied, and lings are ineffective, then the tank or mnm tech can start up. The first phase it to slow down the Z enough by killing overlords and camping until you have a formidable army. Tank valkyrie or mnm is a much more effective unit combination to transition into, well, I believe that is the point he is trying to make.
[I] Valkyrie Use, TvZ. - Page 12
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Archaic
United States4024 Posts
I believe this is assuming he went standard 3hatch muta before he scouted your build. After his harass is denied, and lings are ineffective, then the tank or mnm tech can start up. The first phase it to slow down the Z enough by killing overlords and camping until you have a formidable army. Tank valkyrie or mnm is a much more effective unit combination to transition into, well, I believe that is the point he is trying to make. | ||
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Kaptein[konijn]
Netherlands110 Posts
I played 2on2 with a friend of mine, both of us terran. Normally this is a horrible combination in 2on2, but at LT we had quite a lot of success. He went 1base, bunker 4 marines, 1 vult with mines to fake tech and keep protoss inside, then +1 valks from 1 port and hide them until you have 4. With turrets, of course. I went the basic tvz build, m&m, tanks and vessels. Usually we had to turtle a lot, but you can easily take their cliffs and islands because of the valks. And zerg is fucked in 2on2 if they can't go muta nor expand with a second gas. However, on maps like Luna, Python etc, it's a pretty bad strategy and most good p/z or z/z's kill you early on. | ||
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Ganfei
Taiwan1439 Posts
On October 04 2008 19:03 Nintu wrote: Corsairs don't have siege tanks and marines beneath them. Marines with instant damage rather than goon's delayed damage makes protecting them quite easy. Plus, when you get a lot, they just destroy scourge. Valks have a lot of life aswell for vs spore or hydra. Tanks rape lurkers ezmode, are you kidding? Attack-move hydras does not work against siege tanks. I'm sorry.  Tank+Vulture doesn't work because of mutas? That's sorta what valkyries are there for. :o As for Wraiths. Wraiths die in like 2 hits. Valkyries have MUCH more life, do much more damage to air (in AoE aswell) and take MUCH less micro than cloak/wraith micro. Wraiths have their own style in TvZ. Valks fulfill a different role in this video/concept and they do it much better than wraiths would. I guess you're right, that's why it's the dominant strategy in tvz right? It's good in theory, it will get raped by a competent zerg. You gonna sit in your base making 2 port 250/125 valks until you have enough to not get raped by scourge? Good luck beating a Z with the whole map. Let's see, you have 3 valks, you go to shoot an ol. It takes several shots from each. You can't move while that's happening. You get scourged from behind, or 5 hydralisks have enough time to kill you, or the spore underneath kills you. With a sair you can micro while attacking. Not with a valk. Oh I see, you go valks and then you park your army right outside his base so the "marines can protect them from below." Or maybe you mean you have your regular army and you're attacking and your valks are there too? That's crap, your army will be tiny. Valks are slow and expensive. Yes they kill ols fast. Yes it works vs people totally unprepared for it. No, it doesn't work vs people who are experienced enough to recognize it's coming or who are good. Yes, it might work on certain maps better than others as a high level strategy, but these maps are few and far between. No it's not some sort of auto-win super easy rape strategy like you make it sound here. Of course it's a fun strategy and when it works it works well and is cool to see. But it's not anywhere near as good as you suggest it is in your rebuttal to my original post. | ||
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d(O.o)b
Canada9 Posts
On October 10 2008 02:01 NoobsOfWrath wrote: I guess you're right, that's why it's the dominant strategy in tvz right? It's good in theory, it will get raped by a competent zerg. You gonna sit in your base making 2 port 250/125 valks until you have enough to not get raped by scourge? Good luck beating a Z with the whole map. Let's see, you have 3 valks, you go to shoot an ol. It takes several shots from each. You can't move while that's happening. You get scourged from behind, or 5 hydralisks have enough time to kill you, or the spore underneath kills you. With a sair you can micro while attacking. Not with a valk. Oh I see, you go valks and then you park your army right outside his base so the "marines can protect them from below." Or maybe you mean you have your regular army and you're attacking and your valks are there too? That's crap, your army will be tiny. Valks are slow and expensive. Yes they kill ols fast. Yes it works vs people totally unprepared for it. No, it doesn't work vs people who are experienced enough to recognize it's coming or who are good. Yes, it might work on certain maps better than others as a high level strategy, but these maps are few and far between. No it's not some sort of auto-win super easy rape strategy like you make it sound here. Of course it's a fun strategy and when it works it works well and is cool to see. But it's not anywhere near as good as you suggest it is in your rebuttal to my original post. Yet another poster who has not watched the videos nor read the entirety of the OP. Watch the videos read the OP then post again. | ||
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VIB
Brazil3567 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=79905 | ||
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Avidkeystamper
United States8551 Posts
On October 10 2008 02:01 NoobsOfWrath wrote: I guess you're right, that's why it's the dominant strategy in tvz right? It's good in theory, it will get raped by a competent zerg. You gonna sit in your base making 2 port 250/125 valks until you have enough to not get raped by scourge? Good luck beating a Z with the whole map. Let's see, you have 3 valks, you go to shoot an ol. It takes several shots from each. You can't move while that's happening. You get scourged from behind, or 5 hydralisks have enough time to kill you, or the spore underneath kills you. With a sair you can micro while attacking. Not with a valk. Oh I see, you go valks and then you park your army right outside his base so the "marines can protect them from below." Or maybe you mean you have your regular army and you're attacking and your valks are there too? That's crap, your army will be tiny. Valks are slow and expensive. Yes they kill ols fast. Yes it works vs people totally unprepared for it. No, it doesn't work vs people who are experienced enough to recognize it's coming or who are good. Yes, it might work on certain maps better than others as a high level strategy, but these maps are few and far between. No it's not some sort of auto-win super easy rape strategy like you make it sound here. Of course it's a fun strategy and when it works it works well and is cool to see. But it's not anywhere near as good as you suggest it is in your rebuttal to my original post. There is no dominant strategy in TvZ. Why do some pros use mech, it relies on the element of surprise and Zergs won't practice against this strategy. Valks are very tough and won't die from 5 hydralisks in the time it takes for them to fire and scourges have a hard time touching them when they reach a mass of around six. These points are demostrated in the video. All strategies work better on some maps, but we don't know which maps this strategy will work on, since it's relatively untested. Valks are not slow, dropships are slow. Their army will be small as well because of all the overlords dying. All these points are shown in the video. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7802 Posts
That was freaking amazing, especially since TheZerg WAS expecting valks, which seem to be Boxer's new trademark. Boxer's strategy seemed to rely a lot on valks, and TheZerg probably made a big big mistake by going muta scourge anyway. What you learn from this game is that 3 valks completely negate mutas and give you opportunities in middle game that you wouldn't have normally. For example, a big ugly bunker tank push at your ennemy's natural. Therefore, I'm not quite sure a "standart" valks opening is more efficient than playing a more orthodox way. Something else I learnt tonight: Boxer is imo still the best player in the world. He doesn't win all the time, he doesn't have best macro etc etc etc... but well, "best" doesn't necessarly means you win all your games playing like everybody, a bit better. | ||
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alphafuzard
United States1610 Posts
against a d- nub it raped him and made him cry. i did mass a mass tank and valk build. against a d player i won, but i had trouble building up a fleet of valks cus he kept scourging them. in the end, my macro won the day. against a d+ player, it was very back and forth, and my valks scored a ton of kills, but he started hiding them and i couldnt find them and his army ran over me against a c- player i never got a chance to use them cus he broke my nat with lurkling just before my valks popped T.T | ||
SilverskY
Korea (South)3086 Posts
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SWPIGWANG
Canada482 Posts
Hydra + Scourge should work against it. The idea is to send in the scourge when the valks are being fired at by the hydra but not shooting anything else. (eg. just finish killing a overlord) If the valks stops to shoot, they eat even more hydra shots, while if they try to run they get scourged. If this is done well enough, it might be tons of near free hits. | ||
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TreK
Sweden2089 Posts
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d_so
Korea (South)3262 Posts
On October 15 2008 23:13 SWPIGWANG wrote: I'm just thinking about this..... Hydra + Scourge should work against it. The idea is to send in the scourge when the valks are being fired at by the hydra but not shooting anything else. (eg. just finish killing a overlord) If the valks stops to shoot, they eat even more hydra shots, while if they try to run they get scourged. If this is done well enough, it might be tons of near free hits. i think the point is to force zerg to go hydras so that your mech can run over them | ||
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Zalfor
United States1035 Posts
with enough valks, u can somewhat develop 'valk micro' [edit] incontrol goes lurks on blustorm. | ||
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R3condite
Korea (South)1541 Posts
i think it could become a kind of sair for ter's? that being said that only reason it hasnt' been used so much is cus of it's picky tech requirements but once ppl start using them more i think zerg will come up with a good way to counter | ||
GHOSTCLAW
United States17042 Posts
I think that you could pull this off if you kept the valks hidden for quite a long time (and the zerg went muta first). Firebat+valk has been thought about before- the problem is that it's really really gas heavy, and you need tanks fairly quickly, becuase you don't have enough marines to fight off hydra+lurk. Tank+firebat+valk is so gas heavy that it's almost not worth thinking about. The reason why everyone goes m/m is because marines do a high enough dps so they can fight off muta and lurkers equally effectively with micro. Also, you don't need much gas to do mnm, so you can 1 base 2 rax. If you're planning on going valks/firebat, you need to go 1 rax cc, because you need the second gas. Since you went fast valk, you might not even have the dps to prevent the first two scourge from killing your first valk. No one goes hydra anymore against T because 1marine+1medic >> 2 hydra (I don't think that the hydra ever kill off the marine- the medic heals the marine too quickly). So I suppose if you spotted the hydra fast enough, T might be able to tech switch fast enough by throwing down a few bunkers+raxes to defend pretty easily. | ||
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SWPIGWANG
Canada482 Posts
Bat/Tank/Valk would get hardcore contained by hydra however...so there is that.... | ||
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Archaic
United States4024 Posts
One problem though would it is very hard to camp as Z vs terran, especially with constant valkyrie raids. With the valkyries around the map, then your expos will almost always get scouted. I guess time will tell how to use/counter this build. | ||
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Tribe
United Kingdom52 Posts
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KrAzYfoOL
Australia3037 Posts
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PobTheCad
Australia893 Posts
he used valks but he was going to lose no matter what he did , it's inconsequential the videos posted with the american guy doing a voiceover were good vids , the strategy has some merit i think but seems weak against an early hydra/lurk or lurk/ling push | ||
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