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On October 08 2008 09:56 VIB wrote:
What makes you think that? I watched those vods live, read the op and 1/3 of the replies in this thread. Which is exactly why I'm wondering why there are so many people talking about using valks to kill overlords, when it seems to me that 2 port wraith would be much more effective for. Contrary to what most people here seem to think.
Boxer did exactly what I said. Used valks with mnm ball to counter mutas in game 1, then switch to vessels when he scouts hydra den in game 2.
(ps.: he lost a game going valks again on last sunday, which I think was - partly - because he took too long to realize it wasn't mutas / change tech)
On October 08 2008 09:59 ]343[ wrote:
well apparently AOE kills ovies faster, because spreading them out makes them harder to defend...?
They do kill ovi faster, but that's not the fundamental point of the strat.
The main difference between wraith build is that they live longer : they have more HP, more armor than wraith, therefore they survive an ovi rush, even if there is a spore defense AND hydralisks.
Which is not the case with wraiths.
edit : Nintu, did you ever try a +1 armor build?
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But that's exactly the point where are disagree. They have more hp/armor but are much slower, this weights too much, they're easy to hunt. I've seen the games where people use mass valks to hunt bunched up ovies, but that is clearly not the point of boxer's build. If you get to that point either the strat already worked and you are already far away, or it failed and you're already far behind. But the initial point of the build isn't that, it's just to counter mutas. Killing overlords is a secondary consequence.
Or isn't it? I mean I'm just asking, I don't know myself. This is just the impression that I had from watching boxer, that he was just trying to counter mutas.
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On October 08 2008 09:56 VIB wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2008 09:46 d(O.o)a wrote:On October 08 2008 09:44 VIB wrote:
So many people comparing this to corsairs. Wraiths are much better for that. Valks are too slow to hunt overlords.
Aren't the whole point of going fast valks only, and absolutely only, to counter 3 hatch muta which has been present in about 90% of korean zvt for some time? If you can have one or two valks with your mnm ball when mutas come you'd do 10x better off. So on that phase when mutas are harassing to keep terran at base, you could scare them off with mnm + valk and have more freedom to move out of base sooner and counter.
But if you scout that he is going anything other than mutas, you just change tech go anything else other valks (you'll proly be building a starport when you find out, so you could change to either double cloak wraith or simply sk terran and you wouldn't be too far behind).
Isn't that the whole point of fast valks?
If scout = 3 hatch mutas then go valks
else go vessels Why are there so many idiots posting in this thread? READ THE OP. If you haven't even read what he's said or watched the videos than you really shouldn't post. GTFO. What makes you think that? I watched those vods live, read the op and 1/3 of the replies in this thread. Which is exactly why I'm wondering why there are so many people talking about using valks to kill overlords, when it seems to me that 2 port wraith would be much more effective for. Contrary to what most people here seem to think. Boxer did exactly what I said. Used valks with mnm ball to counter mutas in game 1, then switch to vessels when he scouts hydra den in game 2. (ps.: he lost a game going valks again on last sunday, which I think was - partly - because he took too long to realize it wasn't mutas / change tech)
2 ports wraith get raped by scourge, raped by muta, and raped by spore.
Obviously not the same build at all.
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On October 08 2008 10:18 VIB wrote:
But that's exactly the point where are disagree. They have more hp/armor but are much slower, this weights too much, they're easy to hunt. I've seen the games where people use mass valks to hunt bunched up ovies, but that is clearly not the point of boxer's build. If you get to that point either the strat already worked and you are already far away, or it failed and you're already far behind. But the initial point of the build isn't that, it's just to counter mutas. Killing overlords is a secondary consequence.
Or isn't it? I mean I'm just asking, I don't know myself. This is just the impression that I had from watching boxer, that he was just trying to counter mutas.
This build is not Boxer's Build it's simply based off of boxer's choice of building valks.
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On October 08 2008 10:06 Yank31 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2008 09:56 VIB wrote:
What makes you think that? I watched those vods live, read the op and 1/3 of the replies in this thread. Which is exactly why I'm wondering why there are so many people talking about using valks to kill overlords, when it seems to me that 2 port wraith would be much more effective for. Contrary to what most people here seem to think.
Boxer did exactly what I said. Used valks with mnm ball to counter mutas in game 1, then switch to vessels when he scouts hydra den in game 2.
(ps.: he lost a game going valks again on last sunday, which I think was - partly - because he took too long to realize it wasn't mutas / change tech) Show nested quote +On October 08 2008 09:59 ]343[ wrote:
well apparently AOE kills ovies faster, because spreading them out makes them harder to defend...? They do kill ovi faster, but that's not the fundamental point of the strat. The main difference between wraith build is that they live longer : they have more HP, more armor than wraith, therefore they survive an ovi rush, even if there is a spore defense AND hydralisks. Which is not the case with wraiths. edit : Nintu, did you ever try a +1 armor build?
+1 weapons buffs the damage SO ridiculously much. Considering how many rockets they fire, going from 6 to 7 damage per rocket is huge. They take less damage with +1 attack because they're exposed for a shorter period of time.
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On October 08 2008 10:28 d(O.o)a wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2008 10:18 VIB wrote:
But that's exactly the point where are disagree. They have more hp/armor but are much slower, this weights too much, they're easy to hunt. I've seen the games where people use mass valks to hunt bunched up ovies, but that is clearly not the point of boxer's build. If you get to that point either the strat already worked and you are already far away, or it failed and you're already far behind. But the initial point of the build isn't that, it's just to counter mutas. Killing overlords is a secondary consequence.
Or isn't it? I mean I'm just asking, I don't know myself. This is just the impression that I had from watching boxer, that he was just trying to counter mutas. This build is not Boxer's Build it's simply based off of boxer's choice of building valks.
That's right. The actual execution of the build is ENTIRELY different. I was simply inspired by Boxer's creativity.
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Man, and people complained about tank splitting the mid in PvT. That was the gayest load of space to assault I have ever seen in a TvZ lols.
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ok i tried this, but how you do stop the first wave of lings/lurkers comign up your ramp? You gotta have tanks but valks eat up too much gas
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Korea (South)3086 Posts
Do you have to treat this like a mech build and make your BO so? Or do you treat it like a standard TVZ opening like 1Rax FE and then go into a fast tech?
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I tried this build today vs a bad and a good zerg.
The bad one was playing offrace, and must be more or less D. It was an epic win.
We played on Blue Storm, and I told him I would go valk, so he builded 4 spores and put his ovies there. Big mistake, cuz everytime he would do so, I was coming in with my valks and killing all the ovi in a few shots. Valkyries are FUCKING solid.
He went lurkerlings and tried several times to rape my expo but failed as I had like 4 bunker and 2 tanks. I didn't go mass tank, but rather mm as I am not confortable enough with the build to multitask a tank push and 3 bases, so I stayed on 2 bases and went mm dropship.
He never made a consequent army as he never had the supply needed. I dropped both his expos ate the same time, and he typed out.
I played a good player twice. Twice, it was a horrible rape, but I believe that my bo is bad.
Basically the first time, he went mass lings while denying scouting, and killed me while I was teching. Stupid enough to not go firebat... Second time, he went to hatch muta, and somehow his muta showed up before I my first valk poped up. Got raped as he has good muta micro and I didn't have any turret.
Have to work on my bo, somehow...
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On October 08 2008 11:02 Nintu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2008 10:28 d(O.o)a wrote:On October 08 2008 10:18 VIB wrote:
But that's exactly the point where are disagree. They have more hp/armor but are much slower, this weights too much, they're easy to hunt. I've seen the games where people use mass valks to hunt bunched up ovies, but that is clearly not the point of boxer's build. If you get to that point either the strat already worked and you are already far away, or it failed and you're already far behind. But the initial point of the build isn't that, it's just to counter mutas. Killing overlords is a secondary consequence.
Or isn't it? I mean I'm just asking, I don't know myself. This is just the impression that I had from watching boxer, that he was just trying to counter mutas. This build is not Boxer's Build it's simply based off of boxer's choice of building valks. That's right. The actual execution of the build is ENTIRELY different. I was simply inspired by Boxer's creativity. Ah sorry then. I thought you were trying to do like boxer which got me confused. Your version looks funny when it works lol ^^
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the mass ling strat seems to be a strong counter for this, so maybe going firebat heavy early game, and depending on valk/turret to hold off mutas would be a stronger version?
bats take up some gas tho, and valks are gas heavy....
also defending against lurks might be harder with fewer marines
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I remember iloveoov using valks on Neo Arkonoid, but Neo Arkonoid is like a island/hybrid map so it wasn't as crazy. But Boxer in his game with his second game with Baxter and more recently with by.hero boxer went 1 fast wraith before going for a valk. Fast wraith to makes it look like 2 port wraith harassment, when your really going valks +1 would throw the opponent off. The practical counter to wraiths are hydras, which makes a mass valk+mass tank build more viable.
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17052 Posts
On October 09 2008 09:04 alphafuzard wrote:
the mass ling strat seems to be a strong counter for this, so maybe going firebat heavy early game, and depending on valk/turret to hold off mutas would be a stronger version?
bats take up some gas tho, and valks are gas heavy....
also defending against lurks might be harder with fewer marines
Think about what you just suggested.
Firebats/Valkyries/Turrets.
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10387 Posts
Nintu, i suggest making a BO outline for this, so that other people (like me) can try this out. That way, you'll have multiple people testing and refining this build
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On October 09 2008 11:10 ArvickHero wrote:
Nintu, i suggest making a BO outline for this, so that other people (like me) can try this out. That way, you'll have multiple people testing and refining this build
amen
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ya, i think the whole stigma against using valkyries came from defense maps with too many units on screens and units locking up and not firing. early-mid game, they should be great (and entertaining) though
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On October 09 2008 10:58 Empyrean wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2008 09:04 alphafuzard wrote:
the mass ling strat seems to be a strong counter for this, so maybe going firebat heavy early game, and depending on valk/turret to hold off mutas would be a stronger version?
bats take up some gas tho, and valks are gas heavy....
also defending against lurks might be harder with fewer marines Think about what you just suggested. Firebats/Valkyries/Turrets.
vs hydras?
gg?
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On October 09 2008 10:58 Empyrean wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2008 09:04 alphafuzard wrote:
the mass ling strat seems to be a strong counter for this, so maybe going firebat heavy early game, and depending on valk/turret to hold off mutas would be a stronger version?
bats take up some gas tho, and valks are gas heavy....
also defending against lurks might be harder with fewer marines Think about what you just suggested. Firebats/Valkyries/Turrets. THE ULTIMATE UNIT COMBO!!
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17052 Posts
On October 09 2008 11:51 capek wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2008 10:58 Empyrean wrote:On October 09 2008 09:04 alphafuzard wrote:
the mass ling strat seems to be a strong counter for this, so maybe going firebat heavy early game, and depending on valk/turret to hold off mutas would be a stronger version?
bats take up some gas tho, and valks are gas heavy....
also defending against lurks might be harder with fewer marines Think about what you just suggested. Firebats/Valkyries/Turrets. vs hydras? gg?
Yeah, I almost thought he was joking.
Until I realized he wasn't. Wtf.
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EPT
