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Okay well with some messing around this seems to lose pretty bad to a multi-hatch speedling all-in of one sort or another. I'm going to need to fool around and see if you can get cracklings in time. This is kind of a ridiculous bullshit thing though as it's designed to counter this and only this and nobody ever does this.
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Hey Nintu, dont worry about all these people saying it wont work all of the time. No strat works all the time thats just hilarious to even point out. As always, if the build is decent then it will always be down to execution by both players that decides the outcome. So i say you are right o try unusual things if you want. Youre doing a good thing here by trying.
If you need to edit the audio within a video you can always go to reaper.fm and get their free audio recording and editing software. Youll be able to use splits to pull down the peaks or even easier would be to use one of the built in compressor or limiter plug-ins that come free with the program to bring up the overall volume and reduce the peaks in audio. Small download, and its made by the same people who created winamp i think. Thats IF you need something like that. See ya.
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On October 05 2008 14:11 ForVengeance wrote:
Hey Nintu, dont worry about all these people saying it wont work all of the time. No strat works all the time thats just hilarious to even point out. As always, if the build is decent then it will always be down to execution by both players that decides the outcome. So i say you are right o try unusual things if you want. Youre doing a good thing here by trying.
If you need to edit the audio within a video you can always go to reaper.fm and get their free audio recording and editing software. Youll be able to use splits to pull down the peaks or even easier would be to use one of the built in compressor or limiter plug-ins that come free with the program to bring up the overall volume and reduce the peaks in audio. Small download, and its made by the same people who created winamp i think. Thats IF you need something like that. See ya.
Thanks for the sound tip. I don't mind some of the naysayers because they have points and reasoning. It just bugs me when people go "Valks suck, you suck, your build sucks."
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the best counter against mass valks is the follows..
a) Scourge flank during the valks cooldown. It takes skill on the zerg's part to "bait" the valks to fire and then flank with scourge. Obviously this is hard to do so the next best counter...
b) Queen and hydras. Ensnare is your friend. omg a underused unit to counter another underused unit  Just more proof that SC is greater than God.
And dont waste money on spores, they will not help against valks..
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On October 05 2008 13:39 Hypnosis wrote:
The way i see it going valkyries is a counter to mutas and thats it, it is a timing thing and if you do it right you can just destroy their mutas+ovies and gain an advantage enough to win easily.
I don't see how you can stand by this statement after all the conversation and the video. Valks can work very well against hydra builds, as was displayed. Spores do little, as killing overlords only takes a second and valkyries are fast and have a lot of HP. How does a zerg handle the total domination of every overlord they make? Grouping up and the zerg can defend, but the Terran can also kill them all in 1 attack. If he splits them up, the terran clones his valks and takes them all out. Scourge do very little if there is a lot of valks and if there are MnM near by.
Obviously the build is stoppable, and we've come up with many ideas on the build's weaknesses. I think we just need to think and play some games out to try and come up with a conclusion on the effectiveness of this build. Please add more to your comments than simply "The way I see it, no" with no evidence or logic to support your claim.
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and actually queens seem like the perfect counter to the tank/valks build as well. Broodling and ensnare..
But its a good build that will win you alot of games provided you survive the early game.
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On October 05 2008 14:20 Tiamat wrote:the best counter against mass valks is the follows.. a) Scourge flank during the valks cooldown. It takes skill on the zerg's part to "bait" the valks to fire and then flank with scourge. Obviously this is hard to do so the next best counter... b) Queen and hydras. Ensnare is your friend. omg a underused unit to counter another underused unit Just more proof that SC is greater than God. And dont waste money on spores, they will not help against valks..
This is very true. It's a skill that Zerg has never had to use before, but it's a type of micro where you clone them to attack during the attack cooldown. This can work, but in practice is very difficult since the Valkyrie AoE is rather... all-consuming.. And as they get close, just obliterate.
LOL. If I played a game where I went valks, they ensnared, and I used medic restore.. I'm pretty sure My life could be complete and I could die happy.
You're right that spores do nothing. =D
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Korea (South)3086 Posts
How map dependent is this build? I see that your two but very successful trials are both on Blue Storm. How viable is this build against a Z on a map like, lets say, Python 1.3?
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17058 Posts
On October 05 2008 14:49 SilveR.sKy)ChoseN wrote:
How map dependent is this build? I see that your two but very successful trials are both on Blue Storm. How viable is this build against a Z on a map like, lets say, Python 1.3?
Well certainly, the effectiveness of Tanks would be reduced drastically, and Zerg would have more freedom for more flanking maneuvers. The larger size of the map would also, I believe, contribute to a more overwhelming Zerg economical advantage.
And yeah, Queens would be pretty effective. Parasite would allow you to know where the Valkball is, and Ensnare would drastically reduce their effectiveness, as they'd be much more vulnerable to hydras and also, Valks just have inherently high cooldown to begin with.
Still waiting on some "expert" commentary, though :D
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A better counter I found to this seems to be a proxy-hatchery in the nat with sunkens supported with lings, but on blue storm proxy hatchery sucks ass because of the ramp, but on python it seems like proxy hatch would be much stronger
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I thought some sort of Valk strat is giving auto-wins to Terrans on plasma? I think the weakness of the Valks lies not in the units themselves, but the inability to combine with MnM/Biomech as effectively as vessels, so the ground army is significantly weakened. After all, vessels mean effective air superiority as well as valks, but vessels can do other things.
When a Zerg spots a valk build, he can just defend/hide/run his ovies for a while and use ling-lurk for a contain as the Terran would have less ground army than say massing barracks. In the mean time he should try to get 3~4 gas and get defilers. Alternatively he can just push an near all in and kill the nat if the defenses aren't that strong.
Defilers counters this build quite well, as plague can kill masses of valks and darkswarm + lurkers CANNOT be broken with MnM + Tanks. (Tank splash do not hit burrowed units, go figure) With no vessels to snipe defilers and lurkers, a single defiler with steady ling feed and a few lurkers can hold a choke to the end of time. If the Zerg had the map before, it can simply play for starvation while camping ovies above hydras.
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If there is a critical timing issue to the build, imo it would be to push out with just before defiler tech (or when the zerg overexpo/suffer supply choke) come into play and do massive unrecoverable damage and win the game. On maps where flanking is difficult and the Zerg ground army is ineffective, this gives terrans the win.
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Now with that in mind, perhaps a queen build would be whats needed to save Zergs on plasma....
As a side note, paranoid zerg players can protect ovies by spreading them out in bases connected by nydus and use "info lings" to keep track of the valks. Between the plagues, the "teleporting hydralisk burrow traps" and the spread out ovies, ovie hunting probably will never become that profitable even after critical mass gets obtained.
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On October 05 2008 16:51 SWPIGWANG wrote:
As a side note, paranoid zerg players can protect ovies by spreading them out in bases connected by nydus and use "info lings" to keep track of the valks. Between the plagues, the "teleporting hydralisk burrow traps" and the spread out ovies, ovie hunting probably will never become that profitable even after critical mass gets obtained.
If you're spending that much time trying to keep your overlords away from Valkyries, it's distracting your micro/macro and will cause you to weaken elsewhere.
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I keep checking in on this thread in hopes of commentary from some "reputable" source on the viability of this strategy, proper counters, and the level of play that it is best used at.
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On October 05 2008 18:14 Rayzorblade wrote:
I keep checking in on this thread in hopes of commentary from some "reputable" source on the viability of this strategy, proper counters, and the level of play that it is best used at.
LOL. Reputable source.
I never claimed I had an S-class strategy here. Just that it HAS worked in the occasions I tried it, against C- and C level players. I'm not claiming otherwise, but I am asking for opinions, comments and experiences.
Though if a really good player decided to try these builds and post results, that would be badass.-
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On October 05 2008 11:21 Nintu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2008 07:14 damenmofa wrote:On October 05 2008 06:41 Nintu wrote:On October 05 2008 00:37 damenmofa wrote:
sorry but no, this is crap against a zerg who knows what hes doing. Like others said, hyd/lurk rape the shit out of you, especially when coupled with drops. U say siege tanks rape hyd/lurk, but I say u can NOT have more than 4-5 Siege Tanks and a group of m&m when u go 2 port valks at the time the zerg hits you with like 2 grps of hydras and 5-10 lurks. If he uses drop, things even get more messy for u as u have to turtle like shit while the zerg can keep the pressure up and expo like hell. Damn, even humiliation tactics like throwing in queens with broodling for the tanks work against someone investing that much eco in valks so early on. The argument "Hydra/Lurk rape the shit out of you" is getting tiresome. Why would you believe that's true? A giant mass of tanks with bio or vulture support would absolutely DESTROY hydra lurk... Tell me why you think this would be different? Why would you think hydra/lurk would work? Do you think you have the gas for this? Getting the hydra upgrades, the lurker upgrade, the Carapace and +1 attack? Keep in mind the fact that your overlords have to be above hydras at ALL times. Suggesting drops vs valkyries, where you can scout the entire map at all times, and can kill overlords in 2-3 seconds, just shows me how little I should be listening to your comments. You easily have the ECO off 2-base to go either MnM/Valk or Tank/Valk. dude maybe i should just stop responding to you but if u really have to throw the "just shows me how little bla" card i cant refrain myself from telling you what I really think. I checked up ur accs on iccup and seen u have a C high. I am a B- player and was the leader of a league 1 bwcl clan and been playing this game for 6 years. I dunno why u are even arguing with people when u think this build is invincible and go on about how ur tank/vult/mass upgrades/mass everything rape the shit out of every suggestion people throw at you. I mean what do YOU think would rape ur build? Oh right if ur honest to urself u just cant think of anything that beats it cus ur so excited about ur newfound gosu strategy. Also u think chill as a B player would rape it, newsflash: most B level players would rape that strat. To put it in a nutshell: going 2 port is always very risky and unless u do some heavy damage early on ur basically fucked cus u gonna get overwhelmed in midgame (unless its a map like plasma or smth). You wont have those mass tanks/m&m/whatever to hold off a massive Z ground army in the early mid if u went 2 port valks first, if u still doubt it pm me for a 1on1 anytime u like. I don't think this build is invincible. Read the OP. I quite bluntly said that I'm not sure of it's strength yet. That's why I made this thread. What do I think would rape my build? I've already said. For Tank/valk, plague. For Valk/Bioship, Plague/darkswarm/lurkers. One of the weaknesses of this build is that it has very little early game presence. Atleast, from my experiments, that's been the case. This allows the zerg to expand quite liberally and allows for fast tech. The fact that you're a B- means nothing to me. You still present arguments with very little carrying evidence. You're just blindly theory-crafting and throwing flames. Another weakness of the build is it's susceptability to early timing attacks by Zerg, if they prepare and scout the build. My friend Vyzhis was helping me theorycraft on this build a lot and he is a damn good ZvT player. Since I've been really busy with work and other things, I've been unable to sit down and do more refining and I probably won't get a chance until tomorrow afternoon. I can't wait to try it more. =D If I find that I am able to refine the build enough to make it safe and practical, I will make another video with some more specific information. Until then, I'd love it if other people tried it aswell, and posted their replays/theories/etc.. Thanks for all the support and comments by the way guys. Check out my other videos aswell guys! I also plan to buy a new mic soon or to somehow find a way to fix that breathing/sound quality problem. =D So, I'd love to hear more suggestions or problems with the build. Please think it through though! Also, post replays of your attempts and such. =D Edit: Oh, and I've raped enough B- Zerg's playing standard to not be intimidated by your rank-dropping. Just because your high-rank is higher than mine, doesn't mean I won't ask for evidence and reasoning from your posts. You're not Boxer. You're B-. B- doesn't buy you much so you still have to make sense when you speak.
wow basically all I said was u get owned by a timing ground attack in the early mid and u agree with me right in the third paragraph. By now, not only I have said it, nevake said it too and he has probably seen 20 times the pro matches each one of us has seen. Empyrean and some others went along the same argument.
also u asked about viability and all I told u was it will work exponentially less the higher the level u play on. on C levels it may work around the 50% mark, on B level that percentage will drop to 20-30% and on A level u basically are just gonna pull one win outta 10 games using this strat. (all assuming u and ur opponent are of near equal skill). Of cus thats just an educated guess and no more than theorycrafting, but as u try it against C level players u cant do more than theorycrafting urself about the viability on higher levels. There IS a reason though why this unit is extremely underused on the highest level of play (progaming).
From a zerg perspective I think its like trying to make a solid build out of smth like fast burrow lings + queen. Sure it has the cool factor and can catch people off guard cus they probably have almost never played against it. It still is a very risky build and will never be a solid, safe build.
Maybe u should play on an iccup acc until u reach ur skill ceiling (lose 50% or more) and then try this build again. Up to now u are simply the better player. I can make daring Z builds work more than they should as well if i play against lesser players.
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anyway I spent like a week to develop a pretty much equal build to the OP's, that means his idea isn't foolish at all.
The only difference between mine and his is that I focused a lot on getting those valks as fast as possible, so when possible I started with 14 cc and had little money to spend on bunkers and marines
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On October 05 2008 11:21 Nintu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2008 07:14 damenmofa wrote:On October 05 2008 06:41 Nintu wrote:On October 05 2008 00:37 damenmofa wrote:
sorry but no, this is crap against a zerg who knows what hes doing. Like others said, hyd/lurk rape the shit out of you, especially when coupled with drops. U say siege tanks rape hyd/lurk, but I say u can NOT have more than 4-5 Siege Tanks and a group of m&m when u go 2 port valks at the time the zerg hits you with like 2 grps of hydras and 5-10 lurks. If he uses drop, things even get more messy for u as u have to turtle like shit while the zerg can keep the pressure up and expo like hell. Damn, even humiliation tactics like throwing in queens with broodling for the tanks work against someone investing that much eco in valks so early on. The argument "Hydra/Lurk rape the shit out of you" is getting tiresome. Why would you believe that's true? A giant mass of tanks with bio or vulture support would absolutely DESTROY hydra lurk... Tell me why you think this would be different? Why would you think hydra/lurk would work? Do you think you have the gas for this? Getting the hydra upgrades, the lurker upgrade, the Carapace and +1 attack? Keep in mind the fact that your overlords have to be above hydras at ALL times. Suggesting drops vs valkyries, where you can scout the entire map at all times, and can kill overlords in 2-3 seconds, just shows me how little I should be listening to your comments. You easily have the ECO off 2-base to go either MnM/Valk or Tank/Valk. dude maybe i should just stop responding to you but if u really have to throw the "just shows me how little bla" card i cant refrain myself from telling you what I really think. I checked up ur accs on iccup and seen u have a C high. I am a B- player and was the leader of a league 1 bwcl clan and been playing this game for 6 years. I dunno why u are even arguing with people when u think this build is invincible and go on about how ur tank/vult/mass upgrades/mass everything rape the shit out of every suggestion people throw at you. I mean what do YOU think would rape ur build? Oh right if ur honest to urself u just cant think of anything that beats it cus ur so excited about ur newfound gosu strategy. Also u think chill as a B player would rape it, newsflash: most B level players would rape that strat. To put it in a nutshell: going 2 port is always very risky and unless u do some heavy damage early on ur basically fucked cus u gonna get overwhelmed in midgame (unless its a map like plasma or smth). You wont have those mass tanks/m&m/whatever to hold off a massive Z ground army in the early mid if u went 2 port valks first, if u still doubt it pm me for a 1on1 anytime u like. I don't think this build is invincible. Read the OP. I quite bluntly said that I'm not sure of it's strength yet. That's why I made this thread. What do I think would rape my build? I've already said. For Tank/valk, plague. For Valk/Bioship, Plague/darkswarm/lurkers. One of the weaknesses of this build is that it has very little early game presence. Atleast, from my experiments, that's been the case. This allows the zerg to expand quite liberally and allows for fast tech. The fact that you're a B- means nothing to me. You still present arguments with very little carrying evidence. You're just blindly theory-crafting and throwing flames. Another weakness of the build is it's susceptability to early timing attacks by Zerg, if they prepare and scout the build. My friend Vyzhis was helping me theorycraft on this build a lot and he is a damn good ZvT player. Since I've been really busy with work and other things, I've been unable to sit down and do more refining and I probably won't get a chance until tomorrow afternoon. I can't wait to try it more. =D If I find that I am able to refine the build enough to make it safe and practical, I will make another video with some more specific information. Until then, I'd love it if other people tried it aswell, and posted their replays/theories/etc.. Thanks for all the support and comments by the way guys. Check out my other videos aswell guys! I also plan to buy a new mic soon or to somehow find a way to fix that breathing/sound quality problem. =D So, I'd love to hear more suggestions or problems with the build. Please think it through though! Also, post replays of your attempts and such. =D Edit: Oh, and I've raped enough B- Zerg's playing standard to not be intimidated by your rank-dropping. Just because your high-rank is higher than mine, doesn't mean I won't ask for evidence and reasoning from your posts. You're not Boxer. You're B-. B- doesn't buy you much so you still have to make sense when you speak.
Amen.
Actually, the only way to see about this build is to try it a lot.
Corsair vs zerg seems pretty absurd if you really think about it. It's big investment, you lose time, it will allow to kill a couple of ovi (wooow, amzing...) and maybe to scout. Theorycraft is nice, but you can know starcraft only through experience. The fact is that it works so amazing that everybody does it.
Now, I am surprised that the same who cry and complain all day long about the good old times, and that Starcraft is boring and macro-standart and repetitive etc... etc..., and that it was so much better when people had opportunities to be more creative and so, are so fucking conservative that they flame without even trying when they see something new.
Pretty lame imo.
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On October 05 2008 20:11 damenmofa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2008 11:21 Nintu wrote:On October 05 2008 07:14 damenmofa wrote:On October 05 2008 06:41 Nintu wrote:On October 05 2008 00:37 damenmofa wrote:
sorry but no, this is crap against a zerg who knows what hes doing. Like others said, hyd/lurk rape the shit out of you, especially when coupled with drops. U say siege tanks rape hyd/lurk, but I say u can NOT have more than 4-5 Siege Tanks and a group of m&m when u go 2 port valks at the time the zerg hits you with like 2 grps of hydras and 5-10 lurks. If he uses drop, things even get more messy for u as u have to turtle like shit while the zerg can keep the pressure up and expo like hell. Damn, even humiliation tactics like throwing in queens with broodling for the tanks work against someone investing that much eco in valks so early on. The argument "Hydra/Lurk rape the shit out of you" is getting tiresome. Why would you believe that's true? A giant mass of tanks with bio or vulture support would absolutely DESTROY hydra lurk... Tell me why you think this would be different? Why would you think hydra/lurk would work? Do you think you have the gas for this? Getting the hydra upgrades, the lurker upgrade, the Carapace and +1 attack? Keep in mind the fact that your overlords have to be above hydras at ALL times. Suggesting drops vs valkyries, where you can scout the entire map at all times, and can kill overlords in 2-3 seconds, just shows me how little I should be listening to your comments. You easily have the ECO off 2-base to go either MnM/Valk or Tank/Valk. dude maybe i should just stop responding to you but if u really have to throw the "just shows me how little bla" card i cant refrain myself from telling you what I really think. I checked up ur accs on iccup and seen u have a C high. I am a B- player and was the leader of a league 1 bwcl clan and been playing this game for 6 years. I dunno why u are even arguing with people when u think this build is invincible and go on about how ur tank/vult/mass upgrades/mass everything rape the shit out of every suggestion people throw at you. I mean what do YOU think would rape ur build? Oh right if ur honest to urself u just cant think of anything that beats it cus ur so excited about ur newfound gosu strategy. Also u think chill as a B player would rape it, newsflash: most B level players would rape that strat. To put it in a nutshell: going 2 port is always very risky and unless u do some heavy damage early on ur basically fucked cus u gonna get overwhelmed in midgame (unless its a map like plasma or smth). You wont have those mass tanks/m&m/whatever to hold off a massive Z ground army in the early mid if u went 2 port valks first, if u still doubt it pm me for a 1on1 anytime u like. I don't think this build is invincible. Read the OP. I quite bluntly said that I'm not sure of it's strength yet. That's why I made this thread. What do I think would rape my build? I've already said. For Tank/valk, plague. For Valk/Bioship, Plague/darkswarm/lurkers. One of the weaknesses of this build is that it has very little early game presence. Atleast, from my experiments, that's been the case. This allows the zerg to expand quite liberally and allows for fast tech. The fact that you're a B- means nothing to me. You still present arguments with very little carrying evidence. You're just blindly theory-crafting and throwing flames. Another weakness of the build is it's susceptability to early timing attacks by Zerg, if they prepare and scout the build. My friend Vyzhis was helping me theorycraft on this build a lot and he is a damn good ZvT player. Since I've been really busy with work and other things, I've been unable to sit down and do more refining and I probably won't get a chance until tomorrow afternoon. I can't wait to try it more. =D If I find that I am able to refine the build enough to make it safe and practical, I will make another video with some more specific information. Until then, I'd love it if other people tried it aswell, and posted their replays/theories/etc.. Thanks for all the support and comments by the way guys. Check out my other videos aswell guys! I also plan to buy a new mic soon or to somehow find a way to fix that breathing/sound quality problem. =D So, I'd love to hear more suggestions or problems with the build. Please think it through though! Also, post replays of your attempts and such. =D Edit: Oh, and I've raped enough B- Zerg's playing standard to not be intimidated by your rank-dropping. Just because your high-rank is higher than mine, doesn't mean I won't ask for evidence and reasoning from your posts. You're not Boxer. You're B-. B- doesn't buy you much so you still have to make sense when you speak. wow basically all I said was u get owned by a timing ground attack in the early mid and u agree with me right in the third paragraph. By now, not only I have said it, nevake said it too and he has probably seen 20 times the pro matches each one of us has seen. Empyrean and some others went along the same argument. also u asked about viability and all I told u was it will work exponentially less the higher the level u play on. on C levels it may work around the 50% mark, on B level that percentage will drop to 20-30% and on A level u basically are just gonna pull one win outta 10 games using this strat. (all assuming u and ur opponent are of near equal skill). Of cus thats just an educated guess and no more than theorycrafting, but as u try it against C level players u cant do more than theorycrafting urself about the viability on higher levels. There IS a reason though why this unit is extremely underused on the highest level of play (progaming). From a zerg perspective I think its like trying to make a solid build out of smth like fast burrow lings + queen. Sure it has the cool factor and can catch people off guard cus they probably have almost never played against it. It still is a very risky build and will never be a solid, safe build. Maybe u should play on an iccup acc until u reach ur skill ceiling (lose 50% or more) and then try this build again. Up to now u are simply the better player. I can make daring Z builds work more than they should as well if i play against lesser players.
Again, talk without trying. You pull off statsitic on something you have not done once. That's ridiculous.
Play this build and talk afterward.
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On October 05 2008 21:14 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2008 20:11 damenmofa wrote:On October 05 2008 11:21 Nintu wrote:On October 05 2008 07:14 damenmofa wrote:On October 05 2008 06:41 Nintu wrote:On October 05 2008 00:37 damenmofa wrote:
sorry but no, this is crap against a zerg who knows what hes doing. Like others said, hyd/lurk rape the shit out of you, especially when coupled with drops. U say siege tanks rape hyd/lurk, but I say u can NOT have more than 4-5 Siege Tanks and a group of m&m when u go 2 port valks at the time the zerg hits you with like 2 grps of hydras and 5-10 lurks. If he uses drop, things even get more messy for u as u have to turtle like shit while the zerg can keep the pressure up and expo like hell. Damn, even humiliation tactics like throwing in queens with broodling for the tanks work against someone investing that much eco in valks so early on. The argument "Hydra/Lurk rape the shit out of you" is getting tiresome. Why would you believe that's true? A giant mass of tanks with bio or vulture support would absolutely DESTROY hydra lurk... Tell me why you think this would be different? Why would you think hydra/lurk would work? Do you think you have the gas for this? Getting the hydra upgrades, the lurker upgrade, the Carapace and +1 attack? Keep in mind the fact that your overlords have to be above hydras at ALL times. Suggesting drops vs valkyries, where you can scout the entire map at all times, and can kill overlords in 2-3 seconds, just shows me how little I should be listening to your comments. You easily have the ECO off 2-base to go either MnM/Valk or Tank/Valk. dude maybe i should just stop responding to you but if u really have to throw the "just shows me how little bla" card i cant refrain myself from telling you what I really think. I checked up ur accs on iccup and seen u have a C high. I am a B- player and was the leader of a league 1 bwcl clan and been playing this game for 6 years. I dunno why u are even arguing with people when u think this build is invincible and go on about how ur tank/vult/mass upgrades/mass everything rape the shit out of every suggestion people throw at you. I mean what do YOU think would rape ur build? Oh right if ur honest to urself u just cant think of anything that beats it cus ur so excited about ur newfound gosu strategy. Also u think chill as a B player would rape it, newsflash: most B level players would rape that strat. To put it in a nutshell: going 2 port is always very risky and unless u do some heavy damage early on ur basically fucked cus u gonna get overwhelmed in midgame (unless its a map like plasma or smth). You wont have those mass tanks/m&m/whatever to hold off a massive Z ground army in the early mid if u went 2 port valks first, if u still doubt it pm me for a 1on1 anytime u like. I don't think this build is invincible. Read the OP. I quite bluntly said that I'm not sure of it's strength yet. That's why I made this thread. What do I think would rape my build? I've already said. For Tank/valk, plague. For Valk/Bioship, Plague/darkswarm/lurkers. One of the weaknesses of this build is that it has very little early game presence. Atleast, from my experiments, that's been the case. This allows the zerg to expand quite liberally and allows for fast tech. The fact that you're a B- means nothing to me. You still present arguments with very little carrying evidence. You're just blindly theory-crafting and throwing flames. Another weakness of the build is it's susceptability to early timing attacks by Zerg, if they prepare and scout the build. My friend Vyzhis was helping me theorycraft on this build a lot and he is a damn good ZvT player. Since I've been really busy with work and other things, I've been unable to sit down and do more refining and I probably won't get a chance until tomorrow afternoon. I can't wait to try it more. =D If I find that I am able to refine the build enough to make it safe and practical, I will make another video with some more specific information. Until then, I'd love it if other people tried it aswell, and posted their replays/theories/etc.. Thanks for all the support and comments by the way guys. Check out my other videos aswell guys! I also plan to buy a new mic soon or to somehow find a way to fix that breathing/sound quality problem. =D So, I'd love to hear more suggestions or problems with the build. Please think it through though! Also, post replays of your attempts and such. =D Edit: Oh, and I've raped enough B- Zerg's playing standard to not be intimidated by your rank-dropping. Just because your high-rank is higher than mine, doesn't mean I won't ask for evidence and reasoning from your posts. You're not Boxer. You're B-. B- doesn't buy you much so you still have to make sense when you speak. wow basically all I said was u get owned by a timing ground attack in the early mid and u agree with me right in the third paragraph. By now, not only I have said it, nevake said it too and he has probably seen 20 times the pro matches each one of us has seen. Empyrean and some others went along the same argument. also u asked about viability and all I told u was it will work exponentially less the higher the level u play on. on C levels it may work around the 50% mark, on B level that percentage will drop to 20-30% and on A level u basically are just gonna pull one win outta 10 games using this strat. (all assuming u and ur opponent are of near equal skill). Of cus thats just an educated guess and no more than theorycrafting, but as u try it against C level players u cant do more than theorycrafting urself about the viability on higher levels. There IS a reason though why this unit is extremely underused on the highest level of play (progaming). From a zerg perspective I think its like trying to make a solid build out of smth like fast burrow lings + queen. Sure it has the cool factor and can catch people off guard cus they probably have almost never played against it. It still is a very risky build and will never be a solid, safe build. Maybe u should play on an iccup acc until u reach ur skill ceiling (lose 50% or more) and then try this build again. Up to now u are simply the better player. I can make daring Z builds work more than they should as well if i play against lesser players. Again, talk without trying. You pull off statsitic on something you have not done once. That's ridiculous. Play this build and talk afterward.
Since my T is probably around D level it wouldnt make sense for me to play this build and say smth about higher levels of play. I guess we have to wait for a B or A level Terran to try this build on his levels and tell us if its really that effective if u need first hand experience to believe. Why dont U go ahead and try this build on B or A level?
Judging from ur constant comparison of corsairs to valks probably cus u are a D player. I mean even in theorycrafting it doesnt take much to see that corsairs are much better than valks.
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On October 05 2008 21:48 damenmofa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2008 21:14 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2008 20:11 damenmofa wrote:On October 05 2008 11:21 Nintu wrote:On October 05 2008 07:14 damenmofa wrote:On October 05 2008 06:41 Nintu wrote:On October 05 2008 00:37 damenmofa wrote:
sorry but no, this is crap against a zerg who knows what hes doing. Like others said, hyd/lurk rape the shit out of you, especially when coupled with drops. U say siege tanks rape hyd/lurk, but I say u can NOT have more than 4-5 Siege Tanks and a group of m&m when u go 2 port valks at the time the zerg hits you with like 2 grps of hydras and 5-10 lurks. If he uses drop, things even get more messy for u as u have to turtle like shit while the zerg can keep the pressure up and expo like hell. Damn, even humiliation tactics like throwing in queens with broodling for the tanks work against someone investing that much eco in valks so early on. The argument "Hydra/Lurk rape the shit out of you" is getting tiresome. Why would you believe that's true? A giant mass of tanks with bio or vulture support would absolutely DESTROY hydra lurk... Tell me why you think this would be different? Why would you think hydra/lurk would work? Do you think you have the gas for this? Getting the hydra upgrades, the lurker upgrade, the Carapace and +1 attack? Keep in mind the fact that your overlords have to be above hydras at ALL times. Suggesting drops vs valkyries, where you can scout the entire map at all times, and can kill overlords in 2-3 seconds, just shows me how little I should be listening to your comments. You easily have the ECO off 2-base to go either MnM/Valk or Tank/Valk. dude maybe i should just stop responding to you but if u really have to throw the "just shows me how little bla" card i cant refrain myself from telling you what I really think. I checked up ur accs on iccup and seen u have a C high. I am a B- player and was the leader of a league 1 bwcl clan and been playing this game for 6 years. I dunno why u are even arguing with people when u think this build is invincible and go on about how ur tank/vult/mass upgrades/mass everything rape the shit out of every suggestion people throw at you. I mean what do YOU think would rape ur build? Oh right if ur honest to urself u just cant think of anything that beats it cus ur so excited about ur newfound gosu strategy. Also u think chill as a B player would rape it, newsflash: most B level players would rape that strat. To put it in a nutshell: going 2 port is always very risky and unless u do some heavy damage early on ur basically fucked cus u gonna get overwhelmed in midgame (unless its a map like plasma or smth). You wont have those mass tanks/m&m/whatever to hold off a massive Z ground army in the early mid if u went 2 port valks first, if u still doubt it pm me for a 1on1 anytime u like. I don't think this build is invincible. Read the OP. I quite bluntly said that I'm not sure of it's strength yet. That's why I made this thread. What do I think would rape my build? I've already said. For Tank/valk, plague. For Valk/Bioship, Plague/darkswarm/lurkers. One of the weaknesses of this build is that it has very little early game presence. Atleast, from my experiments, that's been the case. This allows the zerg to expand quite liberally and allows for fast tech. The fact that you're a B- means nothing to me. You still present arguments with very little carrying evidence. You're just blindly theory-crafting and throwing flames. Another weakness of the build is it's susceptability to early timing attacks by Zerg, if they prepare and scout the build. My friend Vyzhis was helping me theorycraft on this build a lot and he is a damn good ZvT player. Since I've been really busy with work and other things, I've been unable to sit down and do more refining and I probably won't get a chance until tomorrow afternoon. I can't wait to try it more. =D If I find that I am able to refine the build enough to make it safe and practical, I will make another video with some more specific information. Until then, I'd love it if other people tried it aswell, and posted their replays/theories/etc.. Thanks for all the support and comments by the way guys. Check out my other videos aswell guys! I also plan to buy a new mic soon or to somehow find a way to fix that breathing/sound quality problem. =D So, I'd love to hear more suggestions or problems with the build. Please think it through though! Also, post replays of your attempts and such. =D Edit: Oh, and I've raped enough B- Zerg's playing standard to not be intimidated by your rank-dropping. Just because your high-rank is higher than mine, doesn't mean I won't ask for evidence and reasoning from your posts. You're not Boxer. You're B-. B- doesn't buy you much so you still have to make sense when you speak. wow basically all I said was u get owned by a timing ground attack in the early mid and u agree with me right in the third paragraph. By now, not only I have said it, nevake said it too and he has probably seen 20 times the pro matches each one of us has seen. Empyrean and some others went along the same argument. also u asked about viability and all I told u was it will work exponentially less the higher the level u play on. on C levels it may work around the 50% mark, on B level that percentage will drop to 20-30% and on A level u basically are just gonna pull one win outta 10 games using this strat. (all assuming u and ur opponent are of near equal skill). Of cus thats just an educated guess and no more than theorycrafting, but as u try it against C level players u cant do more than theorycrafting urself about the viability on higher levels. There IS a reason though why this unit is extremely underused on the highest level of play (progaming). From a zerg perspective I think its like trying to make a solid build out of smth like fast burrow lings + queen. Sure it has the cool factor and can catch people off guard cus they probably have almost never played against it. It still is a very risky build and will never be a solid, safe build. Maybe u should play on an iccup acc until u reach ur skill ceiling (lose 50% or more) and then try this build again. Up to now u are simply the better player. I can make daring Z builds work more than they should as well if i play against lesser players. Again, talk without trying. You pull off statsitic on something you have not done once. That's ridiculous. Play this build and talk afterward. Since my T is probably around D level it wouldnt make sense for me to play this build and say smth about higher levels of play. I guess we have to wait for a B or A level Terran to try this build on his levels and tell us if its really that effective if u need first hand experience to believe. Why dont U go ahead and try this build on B or A level? Judging from ur constant comparison of corsairs to valks probably cus u are a D player. I mean even in theorycrafting it doesnt take much to see that corsairs are much better than valks.
Valks are much, much more solid than Corsairs, and when you have a certain number of them, they just become pretty invincible in air vs air. On the other hand, they are much slower and more expensive than sairs.
The comparison was about build which can sound weird at first, but that experience prove to be efficient.
Now, man, you are very, very proud of your B- level. Good for you. The problem is that you seem to be thinking that it's enough as an argument in such discussion. Maybe being a little bit less arrogant? :/
This discussion leads nowhere. This build has to be tried, so we see if it's viable, efficient, and at which level. Maybe amazing at D/C level and bad at A level, why not. Maybe the contrary. Cool down with your theorycraft flames.
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EPT
