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On October 05 2008 20:24 UbRi wrote:
anyway I spent like a week to develop a pretty much equal build to the OP's, that means his idea isn't foolish at all.
The only difference between mine and his is that I focused a lot on getting those valks as fast as possible, so when possible I started with 14 cc and had little money to spend on bunkers and marines
14cc in tvz is never possible unless there is some physical barrier between you too like an island or destructible building etc.
You aren't gonna reinvent SC, valkyries just aren't a good unit and will be relegated to cute builds. Doesnt mean you cant win when you use them (obv) or that they aren't really fun to try, but slumming it up in D for a week using vulks isnt going to somehow alter reality
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On October 05 2008 16:51 SWPIGWANG wrote:
(Tank splash do not hit burrowed units, go figure)
LOL.
The way I see it valkyries are like hydralisks in their Halloween costumes
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On October 05 2008 22:29 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2008 20:24 UbRi wrote:
anyway I spent like a week to develop a pretty much equal build to the OP's, that means his idea isn't foolish at all.
The only difference between mine and his is that I focused a lot on getting those valks as fast as possible, so when possible I started with 14 cc and had little money to spend on bunkers and marines 14cc in tvz is never possible unless there is some physical barrier between you too like an island or destructible building etc. You aren't gonna reinvent SC, valkyries just aren't a good unit and will be relegated to cute builds. Doesnt mean you cant win when you use them (obv) or that they aren't really fun to try, but slumming it up in D for a week using vulks isnt going to somehow alter reality
The OP is not saying that it's a super ultimate wtfpewpewlazers build.
On October 05 2008 12:05 d(O.o)a wrote:
Watch the videos and read the OP. THEN you can post again in this thread.
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On October 05 2008 22:37 d(O.o)a wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2008 22:29 floor exercise wrote:On October 05 2008 20:24 UbRi wrote:
anyway I spent like a week to develop a pretty much equal build to the OP's, that means his idea isn't foolish at all.
The only difference between mine and his is that I focused a lot on getting those valks as fast as possible, so when possible I started with 14 cc and had little money to spend on bunkers and marines 14cc in tvz is never possible unless there is some physical barrier between you too like an island or destructible building etc. You aren't gonna reinvent SC, valkyries just aren't a good unit and will be relegated to cute builds. Doesnt mean you cant win when you use them (obv) or that they aren't really fun to try, but slumming it up in D for a week using vulks isnt going to somehow alter reality The OP is not saying that it's a super ultimate wtfpewpewlazers build. Show nested quote +On October 05 2008 12:05 d(O.o)a wrote:
Watch the videos and read the OP. THEN you can post again in this thread.
ya I know the op is being realistic but theres people in the thread talking like they put on their lab coats and crunched the numbers in the D- bracket
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if you're referring to me you're wrong
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17070 Posts
On October 05 2008 21:12 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Corsair vs zerg seems pretty absurd if you really think about it. It's big investment, you lose time, it will allow to kill a couple of ovi (wooow, amzing...) and maybe to scout. Theorycraft is nice, but you can know starcraft only through experience. The fact is that it works so amazing that everybody does it.
Actually, Corsairs are very useful in PvZ to scout whether or not the Zerg lair tech was Mutalisk or Lurker. Terran don't have to worry about not being able to scout the Zerg because they can just Comsar ;D
Also, Nintu, you say if the Zerg splits up his Overlords you could just clone your Valkyries to destroy them all. But what if the Zerg keeps, say, two Scourge by each one? Then you'd be pretty much forced to use your Valkball to go hunting, which would reduce the efficiency drastically.
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Its hard to imagine that I've been trying to get poeple to use Valks for over a year now, and I get banned for mentioning them in the this forum. And now Boxer mysteriously does it and now its okay to talk about it. Incredible
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United States44162 Posts
Valks are far more heavily armoured than corsairs and much more expensive. This is a completely useless trait because what matters when scourge are the thing you're afraid of is reaching that critical mass of damage where scourge can't get near. Corsairs are cheap, fast to build and relatively low tech. You can get a critical mass of them quickly without huge investment. Valks cannot perform the same role. They're useful for countering muta if unexpected but they're quite simply not an efficient use of minerals.
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On October 06 2008 01:19 Kwark wrote:
Valks are far more heavily armoured than corsairs and much more expensive. This is a completely useless trait because what matters when scourge are the thing you're afraid of is reaching that critical mass of damage where scourge can't get near. Corsairs are cheap, fast to build and relatively low tech. You can get a critical mass of them quickly without huge investment. Valks cannot perform the same role. They're useful for countering muta if unexpected but they're quite simply not an efficient use of minerals.
Ok for the scourge. Therefore, when you have hydra (you'll have anyway) and maybe spore, being armoured changes everything.
If you looked the vod of op, you could see that he was destroying groups of 12 lords protected by some hydra during mid-game. Try to do that with corsair (hope for you they are insured).
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On October 04 2008 18:44 eth0x wrote:
Ridiculous. BoxeR just may have revolutionized Starcraft once again.
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On October 06 2008 01:19 Kwark wrote:
Valks are far more heavily armoured than corsairs and much more expensive. This is a completely useless trait because what matters when scourge are the thing you're afraid of is reaching that critical mass of damage where scourge can't get near. Corsairs are cheap, fast to build and relatively low tech. You can get a critical mass of them quickly without huge investment. Valks cannot perform the same role. They're useful for countering muta if unexpected but they're quite simply not an efficient use of minerals.
When you get enough valks with +1, they absolutely DESTROY scourge. Scourge work amazingly when there is 3 or 4 valks, but once you get like 8, I've seen it tried many times and almost everytime, my valks came out unscathed.
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On October 05 2008 20:11 damenmofa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2008 11:21 Nintu wrote:On October 05 2008 07:14 damenmofa wrote:On October 05 2008 06:41 Nintu wrote:On October 05 2008 00:37 damenmofa wrote:
sorry but no, this is crap against a zerg who knows what hes doing. Like others said, hyd/lurk rape the shit out of you, especially when coupled with drops. U say siege tanks rape hyd/lurk, but I say u can NOT have more than 4-5 Siege Tanks and a group of m&m when u go 2 port valks at the time the zerg hits you with like 2 grps of hydras and 5-10 lurks. If he uses drop, things even get more messy for u as u have to turtle like shit while the zerg can keep the pressure up and expo like hell. Damn, even humiliation tactics like throwing in queens with broodling for the tanks work against someone investing that much eco in valks so early on. The argument "Hydra/Lurk rape the shit out of you" is getting tiresome. Why would you believe that's true? A giant mass of tanks with bio or vulture support would absolutely DESTROY hydra lurk... Tell me why you think this would be different? Why would you think hydra/lurk would work? Do you think you have the gas for this? Getting the hydra upgrades, the lurker upgrade, the Carapace and +1 attack? Keep in mind the fact that your overlords have to be above hydras at ALL times. Suggesting drops vs valkyries, where you can scout the entire map at all times, and can kill overlords in 2-3 seconds, just shows me how little I should be listening to your comments. You easily have the ECO off 2-base to go either MnM/Valk or Tank/Valk. dude maybe i should just stop responding to you but if u really have to throw the "just shows me how little bla" card i cant refrain myself from telling you what I really think. I checked up ur accs on iccup and seen u have a C high. I am a B- player and was the leader of a league 1 bwcl clan and been playing this game for 6 years. I dunno why u are even arguing with people when u think this build is invincible and go on about how ur tank/vult/mass upgrades/mass everything rape the shit out of every suggestion people throw at you. I mean what do YOU think would rape ur build? Oh right if ur honest to urself u just cant think of anything that beats it cus ur so excited about ur newfound gosu strategy. Also u think chill as a B player would rape it, newsflash: most B level players would rape that strat. To put it in a nutshell: going 2 port is always very risky and unless u do some heavy damage early on ur basically fucked cus u gonna get overwhelmed in midgame (unless its a map like plasma or smth). You wont have those mass tanks/m&m/whatever to hold off a massive Z ground army in the early mid if u went 2 port valks first, if u still doubt it pm me for a 1on1 anytime u like. I don't think this build is invincible. Read the OP. I quite bluntly said that I'm not sure of it's strength yet. That's why I made this thread. What do I think would rape my build? I've already said. For Tank/valk, plague. For Valk/Bioship, Plague/darkswarm/lurkers. One of the weaknesses of this build is that it has very little early game presence. Atleast, from my experiments, that's been the case. This allows the zerg to expand quite liberally and allows for fast tech. The fact that you're a B- means nothing to me. You still present arguments with very little carrying evidence. You're just blindly theory-crafting and throwing flames. Another weakness of the build is it's susceptability to early timing attacks by Zerg, if they prepare and scout the build. My friend Vyzhis was helping me theorycraft on this build a lot and he is a damn good ZvT player. Since I've been really busy with work and other things, I've been unable to sit down and do more refining and I probably won't get a chance until tomorrow afternoon. I can't wait to try it more. =D If I find that I am able to refine the build enough to make it safe and practical, I will make another video with some more specific information. Until then, I'd love it if other people tried it aswell, and posted their replays/theories/etc.. Thanks for all the support and comments by the way guys. Check out my other videos aswell guys! I also plan to buy a new mic soon or to somehow find a way to fix that breathing/sound quality problem. =D So, I'd love to hear more suggestions or problems with the build. Please think it through though! Also, post replays of your attempts and such. =D Edit: Oh, and I've raped enough B- Zerg's playing standard to not be intimidated by your rank-dropping. Just because your high-rank is higher than mine, doesn't mean I won't ask for evidence and reasoning from your posts. You're not Boxer. You're B-. B- doesn't buy you much so you still have to make sense when you speak. wow basically all I said was u get owned by a timing ground attack in the early mid and u agree with me right in the third paragraph. By now, not only I have said it, nevake said it too and he has probably seen 20 times the pro matches each one of us has seen. Empyrean and some others went along the same argument. also u asked about viability and all I told u was it will work exponentially less the higher the level u play on. on C levels it may work around the 50% mark, on B level that percentage will drop to 20-30% and on A level u basically are just gonna pull one win outta 10 games using this strat. (all assuming u and ur opponent are of near equal skill). Of cus thats just an educated guess and no more than theorycrafting, but as u try it against C level players u cant do more than theorycrafting urself about the viability on higher levels. There IS a reason though why this unit is extremely underused on the highest level of play (progaming). From a zerg perspective I think its like trying to make a solid build out of smth like fast burrow lings + queen. Sure it has the cool factor and can catch people off guard cus they probably have almost never played against it. It still is a very risky build and will never be a solid, safe build. Maybe u should play on an iccup acc until u reach ur skill ceiling (lose 50% or more) and then try this build again. Up to now u are simply the better player. I can make daring Z builds work more than they should as well if i play against lesser players.
You're just talking out of your ass. You make about 10 claims in this post but don't give any reason for anyone to believe any of them. Your opinion means very little when you just spew out your opinion as if it were fact.=
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On October 05 2008 23:54 Empyrean wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2008 21:12 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Corsair vs zerg seems pretty absurd if you really think about it. It's big investment, you lose time, it will allow to kill a couple of ovi (wooow, amzing...) and maybe to scout. Theorycraft is nice, but you can know starcraft only through experience. The fact is that it works so amazing that everybody does it.
Actually, Corsairs are very useful in PvZ to scout whether or not the Zerg lair tech was Mutalisk or Lurker. Terran don't have to worry about not being able to scout the Zerg because they can just Comsar ;D Also, Nintu, you say if the Zerg splits up his Overlords you could just clone your Valkyries to destroy them all. But what if the Zerg keeps, say, two Scourge by each one? Then you'd be pretty much forced to use your Valkball to go hunting, which would reduce the efficiency drastically.
I meant that vs Hydra build. If zerg does that you can still just use a huge death-group to destroy all overlords/scourge.
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Looks legit. Somebody forward it to Sea.
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On October 05 2008 22:29 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2008 20:24 UbRi wrote:
anyway I spent like a week to develop a pretty much equal build to the OP's, that means his idea isn't foolish at all.
The only difference between mine and his is that I focused a lot on getting those valks as fast as possible, so when possible I started with 14 cc and had little money to spend on bunkers and marines 14cc in tvz is never possible unless there is some physical barrier between you too like an island or destructible building etc. You aren't gonna reinvent SC, valkyries just aren't a good unit and will be relegated to cute builds. Doesnt mean you cant win when you use them (obv) or that they aren't really fun to try, but slumming it up in D for a week using vulks isnt going to somehow alter reality
This is one of the worst posts I've ever read. This kind of close-minded, conservative bullshit just makes me sick. "Valkyries just aren't a good unit."
For the last time. I'm open to real discussion about the strategies viability, but only from intelligent posters who actually take the time to articulate the reason why.
Maybe Valkyries are bad. Maybe they're easy to play against. Maybe they're totally unviable. But FFS give me a reason why. Stop foaming at the mouth because you've never seen your precious favorite progamer use them. (Oh wait, Boxer has..)
Stop theorycrafting and actually use your intellect to investigate the subject for atleast a moment. Then, post in the thread. If you don't use your head, please don't post in this thread.
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Some of you guys need to lighten up, seriously. An earlier poster made a great point when he said someone puts plenty of thought and effort into a neat idea and some of you just shit on it for no reason other than a pro hasn't done it. Odds are, this strategy probably isn't anything special - but don't be so fucking close minded to just assume every unique idea is dumb.
Good thread nintu, I can absolutely understand how you could be getting frustrated at some of these guys, but I appreciate your enthusiasm!
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Korea (South)3086 Posts
I think this strategy is something special. I always like people trying out new builds, and this sure as hell beats the regular 1Rax expand or standard builds, and from the replays looks like they can be hella effective if executed well. Props Nintu, I'm practicing the build myself right now.
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17070 Posts
The first game was some kind of weirdass ten minute short game that didn't get up to Valkyrie tech.
The second game wasn't what the topic creator was talking about. Oh wow Boxer made Valkyries! That's about all it has to do with the original poster's strategy of 2port Valk into Tanks with various mm scattered about.
(Not to mention he lost both games)
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EPT
