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JMave
Singapore1802 Posts
With that being said, this build has just been conceived. Maybe through more refining and certain clarfication and other things, I think it will be a build to fear and mech terrans vs zerg would probably be more common. But still, I'd really want to see what BoxeR is going to do with this build. Maybe he has something up his sleeves. | ||
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diehilde
Germany1596 Posts
On October 05 2008 01:08 Phyre wrote: Just out of curiosity, wouldn't loading up big portions of your army into overlords be a bad idea if he's killing most of your overlords? Well of cus it wont work if he has perfect gamesense and u are an idiot which shows ovi-speed to him and load up ur entire army in front of his nat. If he is really good (he wont do that build unless he thinks he is far superior to you but lets just assume hes really good and does) you have to get sneaky and do stuff like 2 small sized drops simultaneously or fake drop -> he pulls some tanks back/unsieges -> rape front. Of course if you just load up everything and fly ur overlords straight into his 4+ valks ur a retard and lost the game. Protecting those overlords in the first place should be no problem at all since he cant do much with 2 valks (scourge own him in case of spire opening, hydras own him in case of den opening). By the time he has 4+ valks u should have at least 10 hydras ready to be able to protect most of ur lords. | ||
ArvickHero
10387 Posts
thats friggin awesome. Hook up with some A zergs and refine that build to hell | ||
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VorcePA
United States1102 Posts
On October 05 2008 01:18 JMave wrote: I think the most deadly thing about this build is execution. Of course all builds require good execution but to pull off something like this in the long run is probably going to take an exceptional level of control as well as game-sense. Failing to do so however, will set you behind really, really far if you lose your first few valks and getting swarmed by zerg guys. While it was nice seeing in the video how the ovies died(dead ovies are cooler than live ones), I guess once this build gets to be more familiar with the zergs out there, perhaps it won't be as effective. With that being said, this build has just been conceived. Maybe through more refining and certain clarfication and other things, I think it will be a build to fear and mech terrans vs zerg would probably be more common. But still, I'd really want to see what BoxeR is going to do with this build. Maybe he has something up his sleeves. I think the build is extremely map dependent. Maps like Katrina, Plasma, Colosseum, and Blue Storm where your natural gas-expo is virtually guaranteed would make this build more effective as opposed to maps like Python, Andromeda, and Return of the King, where there's a bit of a separation from your main and natural gas-expo. You are able to both get gas up early on both and protecting them both is a bit easier. If you can further establish a 2nd expo with gas, then Valkyrie/Tank, Valkyrie/Vult, Valkyrie/MnM becomes fatal. Essentially, against a competent zerg player: - You cannot let him scout you - You must have an easy-to-defend natural gas-expo because your ground army is going to be substantially smaller than normal until late game. edit: the scouting part may not be as important *currently*, as zerg players still don't know what to do really. But we already know that valks aren't used because of their numerous disadvantages, the key here is the element of surprise. It won't be long before zerg figures out a hard counter to valks (I think devourer/plague is it [except it's extremely tech heavy], but that comes from my very limited understanding of zerg) | ||
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JMave
Singapore1802 Posts
Protecting those overlords in the first place should be no problem at all since he cant do much with 2 valks (scourge own him in case of spire opening, hydras own him in case of den opening). By the time he has 4+ valks u should have at least 10 hydras ready to be able to protect most of ur lords. Well that's true but I'd beg to differ. With a decent amount of valks, they should actually be able to absorb some fire but manage to kill off quite alot of ovies due to the gay AoE damage. Maybe not the perfect hit-and-run unit but its still going to be ass-annoying. | ||
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
On October 05 2008 01:35 damenmofa wrote: Well of cus it wont work if he has perfect gamesense and u are an idiot which shows ovi-speed to him and load up ur entire army in front of his nat. If he is really good (he wont do that build unless he thinks he is far superior to you but lets just assume hes really good and does) you have to get sneaky and do stuff like 2 small sized drops simultaneously or fake drop -> he pulls some tanks back/unsieges -> rape front. Of course if you just load up everything and fly ur overlords straight into his 4+ valks ur a retard and lost the game. Protecting those overlords in the first place should be no problem at all since he cant do much with 2 valks (scourge own him in case of spire opening, hydras own him in case of den opening). By the time he has 4+ valks u should have at least 10 hydras ready to be able to protect most of ur lords. this is theorycraft isnt it? | ||
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diehilde
Germany1596 Posts
holy crap its a strategy forum, what do you expect people to do? And dont say the videos mean anything, as he said himself, people just lost cus they probably have bad gamesense and never played against such a strategy. I am 100% certain this strategy will never become a "standard" strat among progamers. Why? Cus its just weak and unreliable against an opponent of equal calibre and strategical understanding. | ||
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AoN.DimSum
United States2983 Posts
If anyone remembers theognis, he used to do this strategy a bunch | ||
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-orb-
United States5770 Posts
Great job with the videos, everything looks really good and effective. The only problem is whenever you breathe hard like to laugh or something the microphone pops really really loud. | ||
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eth0x
Canada208 Posts
On October 05 2008 02:56 -orb- wrote: The only problem is whenever you breathe hard like to laugh or something the microphone pops really really loud. Yes, I experienced this too. Was a pain to watch with people sleeping last night. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7802 Posts
You said you have too much money. So, you add 3 facts, and make your tanks plus mass vulture, and mine everywhere. And, well, he is pretty fucked I guess. That's perfect counter if he goes lings. Starcraft is so rich. It's umbelievable. And well... Boxer is Boxer, as influent as ever. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7802 Posts
On October 05 2008 02:40 damenmofa wrote: holy crap its a strategy forum, what do you expect people to do? And dont say the videos mean anything, as he said himself, people just lost cus they probably have bad gamesense and never played against such a strategy. I am 100% certain this strategy will never become a "standard" strat among progamers. Why? Cus its just weak and unreliable against an opponent of equal calibre and strategical understanding. If sair in ZvP was invented today, you would say the same. | ||
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d(O.o)a
Canada5066 Posts
On October 05 2008 03:58 Biff The Understudy wrote: If sair in ZvP was invented today, you would say the same. This is what I was thinking too, the OP is not saying that this will because the big thing with progamers. he's saying it's an build to use once in a while to spice things up. (I think) The people in those games did not have TERRIBLE game sense they just didn't know what to do. They aren't looking at it from the same view as you what they see is overlord dieing and scourge becoming ineffective. It definitely looks like it could be a great build especially for around d+/C-/C level. | ||
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Nitrogen
United States5345 Posts
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404.Nintu
Canada1723 Posts
On October 05 2008 01:35 damenmofa wrote: Well of cus it wont work if he has perfect gamesense and u are an idiot which shows ovi-speed to him and load up ur entire army in front of his nat. If he is really good (he wont do that build unless he thinks he is far superior to you but lets just assume hes really good and does) you have to get sneaky and do stuff like 2 small sized drops simultaneously or fake drop -> he pulls some tanks back/unsieges -> rape front. Of course if you just load up everything and fly ur overlords straight into his 4+ valks ur a retard and lost the game. Protecting those overlords in the first place should be no problem at all since he cant do much with 2 valks (scourge own him in case of spire opening, hydras own him in case of den opening). By the time he has 4+ valks u should have at least 10 hydras ready to be able to protect most of ur lords. That just doesn't make sense in practice. Valks with +1 armor, and an already high HP pool, make hydras do very little damage. Plus valkyrie range is already longer than hydra range, making cliff abuse and micro very easy. When +1 attack is done for air, and eventually +2, overlords die in less than 2 seconds, (in an AoE.) Yes, 2 hatch lurker is strong against this build I can imagine, but it's also strong against a lot of Terran openings. That doesn't really bring anything interesting to the conversation. Tanks do rape lurker/hydra and the fact that you even suggest dropping and queens vs this valkyrie build, reveals to me that maybe you don't quite know what you're talking about. The only thing you argued was that a Lurker drop in their main is very effective if you don't let them scout it. What build ISN'T that true for? That's like saying "Hey, as it turns out, if they don't have observers, it makes it difficult for them to see mines!" | ||
Empyrean
16950 Posts
Anyway, will you be releasing these replays anytime soon? One thing that you may wish to address is the potential use of Devs+Hydras+Lings against your build. Devourers and a few Mutalisks pretty much wreck enemy air, but it really isn't used much because of the huge opportunity cost for teching Devs and actually spending money on them. But hey, it might end up saving the Zerg money by having a relatively lower cost in replacing the Overlords and the fact that the Terran spent lots of money getting upgrades and a large number of Valks. So perhaps in this case, Devs/Mutas could be effective? Perhaps even Guards? It'd take a massive amount of economy to support it, though...it's all just random theorycraft. Just throwing things out there. EDIT: Also, wtf at "haha you suck my dick i'm supposed to go devs wtf" at the end by that guy. Sore loser :D | ||
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404.Nintu
Canada1723 Posts
On October 05 2008 03:55 Biff The Understudy wrote: Actually... I would have gone vultures. You said you have too much money. So, you add 3 facts, and make your tanks plus mass vulture, and mine everywhere. And, well, he is pretty fucked I guess. That's perfect counter if he goes lings. Starcraft is so rich. It's umbelievable. And well... Boxer is Boxer, as influent as ever. If they go spire and do scourge, it's good to have marines to run to. Plus lings and all that. I like rax because they're entirely minerals so all my gas can go to upgrades, valks and tanks. But yeah, vultures definitely could work. | ||
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d(O.o)a
Canada5066 Posts
On October 05 2008 06:24 Empyrean wrote: Haha, I've tried this a long time ago when I still attempted to play Terran. Obviously I didn't have the execution you did so I failed miserably ;D Anyway, will you be releasing these replays anytime soon? One thing that you may wish to address is the potential use of Devs+Hydras+Lings against your build. Devourers and a few Mutalisks pretty much wreck enemy air, but it really isn't used much because of the huge opportunity cost for teching Devs and actually spending money on them. But hey, it might end up saving the Zerg money by having a relatively lower cost in replacing the Overlords and the fact that the Terran spent lots of money getting upgrades and a large number of Valks. So perhaps in this case, Devs/Mutas could be effective? Perhaps even Guards? It'd take a massive amount of economy to support it, though...it's all just random theorycraft. Just throwing things out there. If this zerg did this it is still very easy for the terran to transition into gols/tanks | ||
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Empyrean
16950 Posts
On October 05 2008 06:28 d(O.o)a wrote: If this zerg did this it is still very easy for the terran to transition into gols/tanks After spending all that gas on Valkyries and original Tanks? It'd be pretty difficult to muster that up, even with 2/3 gas. Also, Zerg could just potentially make Guard/Dev. A caveat, though: I'm totally not qualified to speak on this subject, though...this is just massive theorycrafting. | ||
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404.Nintu
Canada1723 Posts
On October 05 2008 06:24 Empyrean wrote: Haha, I've tried this a long time ago when I still attempted to play Terran. Obviously I didn't have the execution you did so I failed miserably ;D Anyway, will you be releasing these replays anytime soon? One thing that you may wish to address is the potential use of Devs+Hydras+Lings against your build. Devourers and a few Mutalisks pretty much wreck enemy air, but it really isn't used much because of the huge opportunity cost for teching Devs and actually spending money on them. But hey, it might end up saving the Zerg money by having a relatively lower cost in replacing the Overlords and the fact that the Terran spent lots of money getting upgrades and a large number of Valks. So perhaps in this case, Devs/Mutas could be effective? Perhaps even Guards? It'd take a massive amount of economy to support it, though...it's all just random theorycraft. Just throwing things out there. Devs are so far up the tech tree. After hive, needing greater spire. In the meantime I'm ripping everything to shit. You need a counter before greater spire, hydras, spores, scourge, something. Scourge are alright until he get's mnm or like 7 valks. By then you're just screwed unless you've invested in some sort've defense. It also means you'd be playing very defensively and passively, while you wait for your counter to kick in. Also, my valkyrie upgrades and production would start long before zerg upgrades and devourers. By the time devourers are up, my numbers and upgrades would just totally rape, in my opinion. | ||
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