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On May 13 2010 02:57 Djabanete wrote:
Last season:
1. Flash rolls all zerg players (Effort, Calm, Zero, Jaedong in BoX's, am I missing anyone?)
2. People wonder how zerg can ever defeat Flash.
3. Jaedong does it.
This season:
1. Flash rolls all protoss players (all 6 dragons on kill list, Pure gets swatted)
2. People wonder how protoss can ever defeat Flash.
3. ???
Really, someone just needs to step it up, and I'm 99% sure that when they do, it won't involve mind control.
Jaedong got a little help though :p
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What people seem to forget is that sc isn't perfectly balanced. Asked time and time again, pros would admit that under the best circumstances zerg is the best race (due to macro). The same goes for terran and protoss. Terran units have the highest damage and fairly low health, while protoss units have high health and low damage (with reference to how much they cost). That's why at the lower levels, you can simply "1a2a3a" as protoss and win most of your battles. While a terran player has to heavily focus on positioning and microing. As the skill level rises and rises (along with people's apm and macro management skills), protoss just becomes worse and worse to play. It is generally agreed that protoss is the easiest to play at lower levels but hardest at S class (there has never been a protoss bonjwa). Also, a minor note (but still fairly important), terran mech upgrades are inherently inbalanced. They provide way to much damage, and as protoss, upgrading your armor/shields is pretty much useless (except probes won't get 2 shotted by vultures). The reason for this is blizzard envisioned tanks and vultures to be support units (as they are clearly desgined in sc2 with tanks being more expensive/stronger, and hellions purely for harass) and mnm as your main bulk. Now, what other choices does protoss have? Well, personally the OP's strategy will never work as flash can quickly adapt to counter such measures. What other protoss unit is left? The scout. Would that work? It might be gimmicky and catch terrans off guard a few times, but once again, they can easily adapt. Perhaps if the scout was buffed.... (but that's a diff story). Perhaps the new maps need to be designed in a way for it to be a little bit more protoss favored (or at least not as turtle friendly?). Or maybe we need to stop bitching and wait for a protoss savior to come and prove me wrong. 
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On May 13 2010 03:55 Jayme wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2010 02:57 Djabanete wrote:
Last season:
1. Flash rolls all zerg players (Effort, Calm, Zero, Jaedong in BoX's, am I missing anyone?)
2. People wonder how zerg can ever defeat Flash.
3. Jaedong does it.
This season:
1. Flash rolls all protoss players (all 6 dragons on kill list, Pure gets swatted)
2. People wonder how protoss can ever defeat Flash.
3. Free does it.
Really, someone just needs to step it up, and I'm 99% sure that when they do, it won't involve mind control.
Hey.. its MSL right =D
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Or we can just wait for the Fall...that still works for protosses right?
Oov used to be unstoppable too until reach manned up and beat him. Just give it time and someone will step up their game and do it with something marginally smarter than using DAs. Maps changing always helps too.
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of course the idea of having >200 army to beat a 200/200 terran ground army makes sense, but if flash is 200/200 why would he not attack
but if you try getting terran before both players are 200/200, obviously you're gonna lose since your toss army will have less units than his terran army, and your terran units aren't high-tech enough to be worth anything until siege tech
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The way to beat Flash is to be better than him. Nobody is atm, so nobody is winning. That's it.
Protoss mostly suck ass at the moment, but remember that a couple of season ago zergs, except Jaedong, were not winning a single game.
If the game really got unbalanced, which I don't believe is true bit can be possible expect the next map pool to be protoss favoured; Zerg were losing when the map pool was a nightmare for bot ZvP and ZvT.
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Oh my god, seeing a protoss player with a tank army would be amazing hahahaha.
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On May 13 2010 03:42 Trap wrote:
I don't know why so many protoss feel they need to switch to lategame carriers while Flash is sitting on 2+ mining bases. In many recent games vs like Kal or Pure, Flash's opponent had somewhat of an advantage in terms of bases and army, then they threw away their army in favor of carriers, but Flash was quickly able to take out their expoes before enough carriers were made. The kid's too good at timings vs carriers. Maybe instead better use of stasis and storm to stop Flash from taking a 4th,
or some 2 base attack after a 12 nexus because Flash has shown he likes to play greedy and take a fast 3rd in response to 12 nex.
Isn't this how Much beat Flash in the 2008 WCG? Epic storms and stasis in conjunction with being an expansion whore? I'm pretty sure Much had 8-10k in that game where flash was barely in 4 digits for most of the game. Stasis tanks and even stasis vessels if you have to and storm everything you see. The trick is to never let the terran hit 200/200. You do this by out macroing him (hard task but not impossible). When you watch this game, even though Much takes huge losses with each attack, he is successful for three reasons:
1. Being able to replenish his army so fast due to gateways/economy.
2. Stopping flash from reaching 200/200.
3. Making sure you always have more expansions than him.
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On May 13 2010 03:35 antrax wrote:
For those who say that this is impossible, being time the main problem, let's look some numbers :
Format (Time,Min,Gas)
Tank path after stolen SCV:
- CC (120,400,0)
- Barrack (80,150,0)
- Fact (80,250,100)
- Addon (40,50,50)
- Siege (80,150,150) Optional because Mind Control
- Tank (50,150,100) Time absorved by Siege upgrade time
Cost of first operational tank
Total (400,1150,400)
Carrier path considering Arbiter path already taken
- Fleet Beacon (60,300,200)
- Inter Capacity (100,100,100) Time Absorved by Carrier building time
- Carrier (140,350,250)
- Interceptor (20,25,0)
- 8xInterceptors (160,200,0)
Cost of first operational Carrier
Total (360, 950, 550)
Well, at least in theory this is not such bad thing. Have in mind that 1 Carrier represents more or less the cost of 3 tanks (min,gas) but 1 Carrier takes twice the time. People who blindly say no should give it a try and then come back to talk, in 2002-04 people said FE PvZ was nonsense and now it is standard ... I'm just saying let's see what happens.
Although I don't like the idea of MC'ing a SCV using a Shuttle, would it be better to make a recall (DA included) trying to kill an expo and then MC'ing one of those annoying SCV's repairing the CC and finally recall back.
One other thing, why pros don't use DA anyway to fight off those damn Vessels?
Actually gas is a huge factor, why would you waste a recall in getting an scv when you can recall an army into his base and create havoc? You would have to tech up to arbiters in the first place and have enough gas and unit count to get a single scv when your 200/200 unit count still gets beat by a terran's 200/200. You're gas hungry enough with templars and arbiters or carriers to be making tanks.
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.....
Why not just pick Terran?
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I think MC could work, but instead of trying to get an SCV from an expo, just get one that's building a turret somewhere random in the middle.
Failing that, get several, maybe 5-8 DAs, and have your main army consist of zealots and high templar with DA and arbiter support. Then, you can use storm to create clumps of tanks (force the tanks to "dodge" into a clump) and then stasis them. Then you could MC half of the rest of the tanks, then hallucinate the DAs with your excess templar to retreat so they don't die, rinse, repeat.
I really think MC should be used more, but not to get tanks, unless protoss can somehow learn to turtle harder than terrans are currently. If protoss could turtle harder than terran and also find a way to get workers from the other races, then it would dominate all of the matchups, because most of the games would end with protoss having a larger army (PTvT in this case, not TvT).
Basically, forget recall and focus on destroying as much of the terran army as possible while losing as little of your own army as possible. This is done by using MC, hallucinate, storm, and stasis all at once in the "huge" battle that determines the winner. After winning that battle, you might have some tanks left over from MC, and also you will have arbiters and mostly high templar, because your zealots would probably mostly die. Then morph the templar into Archons and kill off the bases with a small group of zeals for mine clearing and...
yeah, MC. But don't go down the tech tree, that's just a loss waiting to happen. I'd much rather see half of the terran army get MC'd, use that half to take out the other half, and then roll the expos with archons, storm, and zealots.
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On May 13 2010 04:14 Nal_rAwr wrote:
of course the idea of having >200 army to beat a 200/200 terran ground army makes sense, but if flash is 200/200 why would he not attack
but if you try getting terran before both players are 200/200, obviously you're gonna lose since your toss army will have less units than his terran army, and your terran units aren't high-tech enough to be worth anything until siege tech
What's really frustrating for P is that even if they max quicker than T and has more bases than T they're still not winning unless they can stop T from taking bases and acquiring a maxed army as well. Now you can't do either of those things against Flash. What P does now is simply acquiring a large bank of minerals and gas with many production facilities to replenish their army after losing engagement after engagement against a T army. Just have the option of being able to use the excess mineral and gas to exceed the 200 pop cap can change the whole feel of the PvT late game metagame as now T is one that needs to stop toss from acquiring a sufficient army to roll the 200 T army.
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On May 13 2010 04:17 Biff The Understudy wrote:
The way to beat Flash is to be better than him. Nobody is atm, so nobody is winning. That's it.
This.
I have no idea why some people in this thread act like current PvT becomes imbalanced in terran favor. I already quoted stats from proleague, where protoss are owning terran harder then terran zerg. Go look at OSL or MSL stats, they are also very close, one slighty favoring protoss, second terran.
You want to beat Flash? Play better than him, that's all you need to do.
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Epic Stasis with Epic Storms, only way I can see it happening before the season is over.
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Actually, forget arbiters. Just go mass zealots / DAs with some hallucinate support.
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I think Flash's dominance in PvT can also be explained by Stork and Bisu's current slump. Stork especially is the one to look to usually to see new innovative ways to break a T.
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On May 13 2010 04:49 adelarge wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2010 04:17 Biff The Understudy wrote:
The way to beat Flash is to be better than him. Nobody is atm, so nobody is winning. That's it.
This. I have no idea why some people in this thread act like current PvT becomes imbalanced in terran favor. I already quoted stats from proleague, where protoss are owning terran harder then terran zerg. Go look at OSL or MSL stats, they are also very close, one slighty favoring protoss, second terran. You want to beat Flash? Play better than him, that's all you need to do.
You don't think late game pvt is favored for T? Late game with 3-3 ups is always where T wants the game to be, and Flash takes P's there. I'd say being able to MC Flash's scv's and making your own T army while still holding off his pushes with expertise in both P and T units is playing better than him.
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My jaws is literary dropping from reading the posts from this thread.
Your example game is a poor choice. Kal had a major lead in the game but he made some critical mistake which lost him the game.
You should instead watch more of Flash's TvP and see the situation in the game where the protosses have their arbiters and the state of Flash's army. You also have to take account when Flash does his push. If you are rushing all these crazy techs, you won't have enough units to fight it back or not enough econ to win in the late game.
Like I said above, you can't use a game when the protoss has a big advantage and say that "this and this" could win the game.
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cannon rush is much easier..
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EPT
