On June 10 2010 04:35 Reborn8u wrote: I've been wondering about the possibilities of using disruption web to crack the defense. It would allow an arbiter to pass through turrets late game for recalls and the sairs would crush science vessels. It would take control on Bisu's level to pull off if it is even possible to do against flash at all.
Goon/Sair is an oldschool and hard build to pull off. Sairs dont really kill science vessels very quickly at all either, they just speed off backwards and take too many hits. Arbiters usually get through a turret line anyway unless its ridiculously packed, if you were really worried about it you may as well get hallucination. The only use for them is against a mid-game push with webs instead of stasis and a lot of goons, then probably a transition into carriers if you manage to break the push but it's not really very good.
Personally i just think storms need to make more of a comeback in PvT and less wasted recalls, the top terrans are far too good at cleaning them up now to the point where a lot of the time it wasn't worth the cost of units+arbiter. Get arbiters lategame anyway but just use them all for stasis. I think the progamers push-breaking ability has either got worse or more likely, terrans multitasking and positioning has improved. I don't know if they do this already (pretty sure they don't) but i think a good idea would be making pre-set up already max'd out PvT situations on the maps and playing them UMS. This will specifically help them practice flanking and taking out the terran push, so they can repeatedly attempt this without playing so many games. And of course that helps the terran practice partner as well. Considering a lot of the time these days Protoss has great macro and mechanics but dies or gets disadvantage due to this one engagement, it would be helpful to have this kind of targeted practice imo.
There is that UMS, it's called the "saved game"
And I agree that it's terran positioning that get better; it's just counter-intuitive to think that all protoss players suddenly decide to de-volve.
It's no problem though, bisu will revolutionizes PvT and makes it heavily imbalanced for Protoss.
In the near future.
Yeah i'm aware of savegame but it doesn't sound like they make use of it, from interviews and what you see on the shows it just looks like they play full games all the time. I think trying to break a push 100 times would be more useful than 10 full games considering how much of that time spent on full games is just likely standard play.
On June 29 2010 07:07 JayDee_ wrote: What about going crazy with arbs, storms and ground units?
Crazy where? By the time you have all that Flash is already entrenched. Plus, a multitask battle is something not many has the skill or the gut to do against Flash.
skip ahead to the 7:25 mark, I've been doing this for years lolol :-D
great approach =)
TvP right now has a lot to do with arbiters anyways. toss are starting to tech straight to arbiters instead of getting templar, and you need templar archives for arbiterse anyways,
so the only extra thing you need is mind control + DA, which is 150/150 for the MC upgrade, and 125/100x2 for the DA. seems doable. Toss is always maxed out with tons of extra cash anyways.
On June 29 2010 10:53 anch wrote: I thought the bump of this thread was to mock Flash. Crazy game on KT vs WjS last night. Flash vs Free on Match Point.
i believe this is called the royal stove strategy and it has been done. its kind of like a crazy combo build and results with the toss winning by recalling 15+ sieged tanks into the terran main as they dont unsiege when they are recalled.
skip ahead to the 7:25 mark, I've been doing this for years lolol :-D
great approach =)
TvP right now has a lot to do with arbiters anyways. toss are starting to tech straight to arbiters instead of getting templar, and you need templar archives for arbiterse anyways,
so the only extra thing you need is mind control + DA, which is 150/150 for the MC upgrade, and 125/100x2 for the DA. seems doable. Toss is always maxed out with tons of extra cash anyways.
K, so you get the scv, then what?
The time and money it takes to tech to the terran tree is quite a bit, and that is a problem that exists in any stages of the game. As a protoss playing against Flash, you are running on a countdown that pointed toward his 200/200 push. If you spent money to tech with your scv early, you are either giving flash a nice timing window to attack with the sh!t that he has (because of the money spent and delayed arbs/storms/anything that cost gas) or to just macro the shit out of his army without a care in the world. You do it later and his 200/200 comes anyway before you get anything out of that scv.
Some guy watching games in his room obviously has thought up a foolproof strategy that entire korean teams/companies haven't thought up yet. Maybe he will get hired as a coach with this obviously viable strategy.
There's another thing toss can do. I'm noticing that a LOT of progamers clump their arbiters in lategame, which means that 1 good EMP can prevent several statises. They've got to spread their arbiters so that terran would need to spend a lot more effort in preventing statises or else risk half their army disappearing. Oh, and imagine that with hallucination lategame. It's gonna force terran to waste their vessels' mana and allow arbiters to fly deeper into the terran ball to statis the stuff in the back without dying to goliath fire.
I love to use storms vs terran and I really don't get why sometimes pro Ps try to break pushes without them. Storm cuts through terran armies and can reach units in the back ranks of the terran army......imo it's the best weapon vs terran.
Lockdown is actually a pretty good counter to shuttle play, and to a lesser extent arbiters, so it may not always be a good idea to carry HTs in shuttles (this is another spell that I think terran progamers should definitely use to make their play better....plus lockdown hard counters carriers anyways...which is why I like RuBy's TvP :D )
On June 29 2010 12:39 Yferi wrote: There's another thing toss can do. I'm noticing that a LOT of progamers clump their arbiters in lategame, which means that 1 good EMP can prevent several statises. They've got to spread their arbiters so that terran would need to spend a lot more effort in preventing statises or else risk half their army disappearing. Oh, and imagine that with hallucination lategame. It's gonna force terran to waste their vessels' mana and allow arbiters to fly deeper into the terran ball to statis the stuff in the back without dying to goliath fire.
I love to use storms vs terran and I really don't get why sometimes pro Ps try to break pushes without them. Storm cuts through terran armies and can reach units in the back ranks of the terran army......imo it's the best weapon vs terran.
Lockdown is actually a pretty good counter to shuttle play, and to a lesser extent arbiters, so it may not always be a good idea to carry HTs in shuttles (this is another spell that I think terran progamers should definitely use to make their play better....plus lockdown hard counters carriers anyways...which is why I like RuBy's TvP :D )
EMP war is already a normal part of pvt.
As for lockdown.... Gretorp has been advocating it for God knows how long, but that is for stopping arbs from recalling. Shuttle plays come too early for lockdown to be teched, and if you try to rush lockdown toss can just grab like 2 expo or 1a2a3a your nat.
EDIT: Btw...
Pros do use storms when they try to break pushes, just not that extreme.
Yes, but the problem is many tosses DON'T spread their arbiters out well enough. So 1 mistake = most/all their arbiters get screwed.
On June 29 2010 12:45 O-ops wrote: As for lockdown.... Gretorp has been advocating it for God knows how long, but that is for stopping arbs from recalling. Shuttle plays come too early for lockdown to be teched, and if you try to rush lockdown toss can just grab like 2 expo or 1a2a3a your nat.
This was talking about an earlier idea (HTs in shuttles). I was referring to building ghosts in lategame, if the toss decides to carry his HTs around in a shuttle. It'll be pretty hard to counter them otherwise...unless you wanna build a bunch of gols and put them at the front of your army where they'll be the first to die just to snipe a shuttle. In early/mid game tosses don't have shuttles full of HTs x_x
On June 29 2010 12:45 O-ops wrote:
Pros do use storms when they try to break pushes, just not that extreme.
Yeah, but not all the time. Imo they should use it....almost everytime The gas is definitely worth it.
EPT
The gas is definitely worth it.
