On June 06 2010 12:17 Gtks wrote: I'm with you not your enemy you play protoss i play TERRAN please see the VOD and tell me WHY Snow won the game do i ask mutch ? forget the other vod see the kwanro vod and i don;t like to be like an asshole to you but you may need to read it AGAIN:
i clame protoss can stop zergs hydra attacts with NO upgrades and win the game with 1 single attact so please find the TIME and read it once AGAIN in order to do something really constructive here couse sharing our feelings will really help NOBADY in this theat and thats the POINT
yes i know i make mistakes BUT can we please analize a VOD together. I bet he won the game and the spelling wasn't the REASON ok and if you continue loosing from zerg that i clame you can win them without to spend for upgrates you will never have the chanse to play with Flash and if this ever happen by accident then you will never have the UNITS in the right TIME to match him trust me on this one, Jaedong hade the same problem in the 3rd game you know it?
Stork lost by a zerg you know i spend TIME to watch the VOD with him i will never do this mistake again i can always wait for the next Snow game.
Don't get me rong i'm Flash BIG fun and i like to see him Flush you down the toilet but now i became a Snow fun also and i HOPE the next theat will be "how we can beat Snow" but even then i will find noone to talk about how he won or how you lost the game couse in the end i read always the same and the same shit "how many probs he has in the gass", "he used 14cc again", etc VERY and really 'ussefull' things I HATE TO READ over and over again and again.
Gtks, you really don't have basic understanding in any of Protoss match up. How can you compare PvT with PvZ? Both match up played in different manner and use different unit combination. For example dragoon is staple in PvT doesn't compulsory in PvZ except counter lurker play. and Corsair which is owning in PvZ is useless in PvT. Not to mention there are different attack timing window for these two match up.
And you seems don't understand why Flash is imba in TvP. It's because Flash have monster macro and timing sense that making him fearsome in TvP. Imagine a scenario like this, You met a Terran which have almost impenetrable defenses. If you attack his defense position carelessly. You lose almost the whole army with Terran suffered minimum losses. Terran rally whole of his force to your main base without giving you enough time to replenish sufficient amount unit to defend the push. That's GG for you.If both player macro up until 200/200 late game.Protoss will have to meet almost unstoppable Terran mech push and still met inevitable GG. The question in this thread how to break Flash's mech army defense or break 200/200 Terran mech ball in late game. In this case OP suggest using Mind Control to create 300/300 Protoss/Terran army to combat with it.
To be honest, for me it seems like you just trolling no offense. The thing that you HATE TO READ is the most important basic for understanding in Starcraft game because build order can affect your tech and attack timing.
I don't want to imagine your senario my frient i asked you to analyze a VOD NOTHING else don't keep on trying to change our subject is very difficult to see a 200/200 Pro game with this kind of gameplay almost never get that far unless, Flash like to TEST something 'new' to win that i made clear i never like.
The TIME to build a building or the TIME to build a unit is ALWAYS the SAME and to PvP and to PvT, PvZ, the away to loose the game can always be the same but some may never see it, I also see almost the same units to be played in all Protoss senarios, Flash is trying diffrent build up from game to game see the 3-0 games to Jaedong.
The quastion to this Threat was CAN we use MIND Controll to steel an SCV from Flash you never wrote your oppinion about that. Is it possible to be done in 20 min PRO GAME ? Are there minerals and gass to support this move in the MAPs their playing? You will ask Flash and the Funs in the room to wait for you to get a 300/300 army? CALCULATED ANSWERE and i'm smart enought to refuse to do the calculations in YOUR IMAGINARY senario.
You always missing the TIME issue something i never did in my posts, i wrote i need 3 raiver time to build and cost. NOTHING else can be helpfull trust me on this.
Time to build a building is same in all match up. But the unit and the time you getting the tech doesn't.In PvZ, zeal/dragoon army suck balls against mass zerglings and hydras. Unlike PvT you can use zeal/dragoon army in the entire game.
Mind Control stealing the SCV is not practical. Why? Earlier posts already stated the reason. Go check it out. Basically I'm more agree in using Psi Storm+Stasis combo to break Terran 200/200 late game mech army. This is can be another option for Protoss to beat the Terran late game army aside using Carrier Tech that more vulnerable for Terran timing push.
The reason I'm feeling that you're trolling is you're trying to stray the topic out of the subject, Why analyze PvZ VOD for PvT gameplay? They both play in different way. Like someone asking for help in TvP and all you do is give him TvZ VOD for him to study and analyze it. What's the point for that?
Couse STORK did't USE RAIVERS NOWERE and lost from a zerg that i CLAME you can beat with NO UPGRADES. Also i dont see any diffrence to the UNITS that protoss using in their games i mean really. Flash did use 3 diffrent ways to won jaedong you don't agree and to that then lest drop it. ok ?
On June 06 2010 17:42 Gtks wrote: Couse STORK did't USE RAIVERS NOWERE and lost from a zerg that i CLAME you can beat with NO UPGRADES. Also i dont see any diffrence to the UNITS that protoss using in their games i mean really. Flash did use 3 diffrent ways to won jaedong you don't agree and to that then lest drop it. ok ?
User was temp banned for this post.
uhm, i hope this is the result of using google translator .. otherwise :-/
Though I'm pretty sure it is difficult to pull off, MC is an awesome idea.
Siege tanks to stop slow pushes and vulture raids and forcing terran to play TvT style, siege recalls, instant upgrades!!! The latter alone makes it cost effective if pulled off imho.
no offence but they also claimed i was trying to misslead them!? The interesting part in the above link someone from Malaysia was trying to convince me that Flash wanted a 2nd factory when he was building a 2nd Starport!? In the beggin i was trying to handle polite his clames but in the end i wrote the things they way that was, sorry about it.
The most interesting part is Flash lost a TvT game with a move that is done to a PvP game and someone from Malaysia refusing to analyze that move to a threat was searching a way to beat Flash.
The funny part the above link was another Flash vs Ruby game.
I've been wondering about the possibilities of using disruption web to crack the defense. It would allow an arbiter to pass through turrets late game for recalls and the sairs would crush science vessels. It would take control on Bisu's level to pull off if it is even possible to do against flash at all.
going for a lategame mind control is even harder than going for a midgame. theres probably a better chance of success if you mc in the midgame and play tvt, while turtling and grabing bases. Then just build up a protoss army and go for a 400/400 army. Then just all-in attack with the 400/400 army and hope
On June 29 2010 05:48 vishrut wrote: going for a lategame mind control is even harder than going for a midgame. theres probably a better chance of success if you mc in the midgame and play tvt, while turtling and grabing bases. Then just build up a protoss army and go for a 400/400 army. Then just all-in attack with the 400/400 army and hope
I doubt a player would ever have enough resources to manage both a toss and terran army.
It brings a smile to my face when i see gtks saying "I am done with this" on this thread like 1293009 different times and still come back to post on it. Oh, and he said that on all his posts in the thread he linked us to too.
It brings an even bigger smile to my face when i see that same guy magically blurring the line that seperate TvT, TvP, PvT, and PvZ. And maybe some PvP in there too, with his Greekish.
Anyway, MC is bad. You could get an scv if you're lucky (I honestly have NO idea where you could get an SCV with MC) if you tech MC directly from DT rush or DT expand. But then Flash sees the DA with MC, knows that your tech and unit counts blow balls, and roll you over with what he has or mass and timing push when you try to tech the Terran tech tree.
If you MC lategame (which is almost impossible because 1. you have to push into an expansion full of SCVs to get them, and being able to push somewhere is one of the problems anyway or 2. you try to drop the DA with a shuttle and find it impossible because of the turrets he build the moment he scanned the archive), you prolly won't have the time to do anything with it anyway because Flash would already be somewhere close to 200/200 and ready to push you. Plus, it takes money, which you may not have.
On June 10 2010 04:35 Reborn8u wrote: I've been wondering about the possibilities of using disruption web to crack the defense. It would allow an arbiter to pass through turrets late game for recalls and the sairs would crush science vessels. It would take control on Bisu's level to pull off if it is even possible to do against flash at all.
Goon/Sair is an oldschool and hard build to pull off. Sairs dont really kill science vessels very quickly at all either, they just speed off backwards and take too many hits. Arbiters usually get through a turret line anyway unless its ridiculously packed, if you were really worried about it you may as well get hallucination. The only use for them is against a mid-game push with webs instead of stasis and a lot of goons, then probably a transition into carriers if you manage to break the push but it's not really very good.
Lets get away from the gimmicks and just think about the basics. Personally i just think storms need to make more of a comeback in PvT and less wasted recalls, the top terrans are far too good at cleaning them up now to the point where a lot of the time it wasn't worth the cost of units+arbiter. Get arbiters lategame anyway but just use them all for stasis. One cute trick would be to stasis something at a ramp or choke in front of the facts to prevent reinforcements, which is often a problem as vultures race out to clean up units.
I think the progamers push-breaking ability has either got worse or more likely, terrans multitasking and positioning has improved. I don't know if they do this already (pretty sure they don't) but i think a good idea would be making pre-set up already max'd out PvT situations on the maps and playing them UMS. This will specifically help them practice flanking and taking out the terran push, so they can repeatedly attempt this without playing so many games. And of course that helps the terran practice partner as well. Considering a lot of the time these days Protoss has great macro and mechanics but dies or gets disadvantage due to this one engagement, it would be helpful to have this kind of targeted practice imo.
On June 10 2010 04:35 Reborn8u wrote: I've been wondering about the possibilities of using disruption web to crack the defense. It would allow an arbiter to pass through turrets late game for recalls and the sairs would crush science vessels. It would take control on Bisu's level to pull off if it is even possible to do against flash at all.
Goon/Sair is an oldschool and hard build to pull off. Sairs dont really kill science vessels very quickly at all either, they just speed off backwards and take too many hits. Arbiters usually get through a turret line anyway unless its ridiculously packed, if you were really worried about it you may as well get hallucination. The only use for them is against a mid-game push with webs instead of stasis and a lot of goons, then probably a transition into carriers if you manage to break the push but it's not really very good.
Personally i just think storms need to make more of a comeback in PvT and less wasted recalls, the top terrans are far too good at cleaning them up now to the point where a lot of the time it wasn't worth the cost of units+arbiter. Get arbiters lategame anyway but just use them all for stasis. I think the progamers push-breaking ability has either got worse or more likely, terrans multitasking and positioning has improved. I don't know if they do this already (pretty sure they don't) but i think a good idea would be making pre-set up already max'd out PvT situations on the maps and playing them UMS. This will specifically help them practice flanking and taking out the terran push, so they can repeatedly attempt this without playing so many games. And of course that helps the terran practice partner as well. Considering a lot of the time these days Protoss has great macro and mechanics but dies or gets disadvantage due to this one engagement, it would be helpful to have this kind of targeted practice imo.
There is that UMS, it's called the "saved game"
And I agree that it's terran positioning that get better; it's just counter-intuitive to think that all protoss players suddenly decide to de-volve.
It's no problem though, bisu will revolutionizes PvT and makes it heavily imbalanced for Protoss.
EPT
