Remember when the universal race imbalance was Protoss>Terran?
That certainly doesn't seem like that case anymore in professional sc. Why? Because terran has found counters and adapted to the array of 'abusive' late game units toss can produce.
So why only talk about Flash? Because he is the best and his tvp as of the moment is perfected. His play has no holes in the early game and he is able to expand on par with protoss because he is so darn good at defending. It seems that toss has no way of beating Flash in the late game.
When it get's to late game and Protoss is maxed and sitting on 5 bases, Flash is almost impenetrable at that point. Knowing that a 200 T army rolling will inevitably come, toss can only prepare for the massive loss they'll incur by making excessive gates and carrier tech. I have not seen a game recently where Flash lost to carriers so I don't see why tosses have been so stubborn to go for them anyway. Oh I know why, because it's the only feasible way of winning they have.
Well I'm proposing an alternate solution and I say Protoss needs to adapt to Flash, and the answer is this guy
Should you ever use Mind Control in a serious game?
NO! It costs too much and it takes TOO long to make a race switch and you WONT be able to get the worker back to your base and IF YOU ARE ABLE TO MIND CONTROL THEIR WORKERS YOU'RE WINNING ANYWAY.
Let me tell you why it needs to be used against Flash
It take about as much time as a mass carrier switch without the psi block (when the carrier is being made and taking up psi). Let's keep it real, late game pvt you wont move out unless you have 5-6 carrier with at least 1-1 ups. CC->rax->factories+some supplies and now you have tanks!
Toss can afford it. In the late game on big maps if toss is able afford a carrier switch then they are certainly able to afford to make tanks.
Toss will have a 200+ army. Now this is the biggie here, some extra supplies of units is the boost toss will need to beat a 200 terran ground army.
Now getting the scv(s) will be the hard part in this strat. The best way I can think of is to drop 2 DA's mind control and recall everything back within a matter of seconds. No idea if this is the best way though.
Now you might be thinking this is getting ridiculous.... Certainly any mortal wont be able to pull this off nor will he have the priviledge to play Flash in pvt. Top tier tosses (Stork, Kal, Free, Bisu? lulz) certainly can, and honestly they'll need to take their games 1 step further to be able to beat Flash since he is already many steps ahead.
Please discuss
Update: example with this game
For example this game:
@17:00 in 10 oclock and pretty much the whole game at Flash's nat MC is possible. @30:00 to end Kal makes the carrier switch and sacrifices probes for psi.
Kal stays maxed for the whole game but loses every engagement because flash is also maxed. He has the extra money but can't use it. Now imagine if Kal was able to macro tanks he would've secured 12 oclock and not be forced to use his money on carriers at 30:00. Eventually he'll use all his minerals and get a 200+ army which beats a 200 t army and roll t's bases.
this thread is a testament to the sheer desperation flash´s play provokes in his opponents minds.
but seriously, flying in a shuttle with DAs, then immediately recalling them home and then building up a terran army as toss, in a competitive game. how cool would that be? whoever pulls this off with success would raise his fanbase by a factor of over 9000 in one single game.
I bet this can work in late game, i mean c'mon. I doubt terran players have goliaths or turrents at ALL his expansions. It will work if someone actually goes for it.
The problem is that flash's defence is inpenetrable, you outlined that this was the hardest part of the strat (actually mind controlling the scv). How do you get a shuttle to land and then not have the scv intantly vaporise to tank or vulture fire. Flash (and terrans in general) will always have bases well defended. Even if one player managed to do it all Terrans would fear the humiliation and defend bases in future matches with more zeal. It's a strategy that MAY work in a few games, but not an actual viable solution to FvP.
It's not as difficult to pull off as people believe. The recall is a good idea. I've often wondered why no one ever tried this. One shuttle to fly the DA in and a recall back out seems perfectly possible to me.
In fact I've been thinking if there is some kind of gentleman's agreement between the players not to use this kind of mind controlled scv stuff, because it would be totally unstoppable if it would succeed.
It is not entirely impossible that someone could pull this off with a little luck. It's not a long term solution though. But it would be sexy as hell if someone did it once (would love to see Flash's face once he realizes his opponent has tanks XD), and I would definitely become a fan of the player who did it.
On May 13 2010 00:21 dukethegold wrote: Kal came pretty damn close to winning against Flash multiple times.
Result isn't everything. If you watched the game, you would realize Kal is able to push Flash to the limit.
I'd invest some faith in him.
Absolutely, I've watch all the Kal vs Flash games and they are indeed close. Kal still get's stuck at the carrier stage though, lacking in mobility and unable to reinforce interceptors because he's unable to defend his bases. What i'm simply proposing is that carriers aren't the optimal solution to late game pvt DA's are.
On May 13 2010 00:21 The_Australian wrote: The problem is that flash's defence is inpenetrable, you outlined that this was the hardest part of the strat (actually mind controlling the scv). How do you get a shuttle to land and then not have the scv intantly vaporise to tank or vulture fire. Flash (and terrans in general) will always have bases well defended. Even if one player managed to do it all Terrans would fear the humiliation and defend bases in future matches with more zeal. It's a strategy that MAY work in a few games, but not an actual viable solution to FvP.
In a lot of games when terran expands, defences aren't immediately set up. Toss usually spots this with an observer but is unable to move and kill it due to terran and the defence line terran has already set up outside the expo. I think it's prefectly possible to fly in a shuttle at this point. I guess we can only see if it's a viable solution if someone does it first =/
On May 13 2010 00:00 Pliers wrote: Remember when the universal race imbalance was Protoss>Terran?
That certainly doesn't seem like that case anymore in professional sc. Why? Because terran has found counters and adapted to the array of 'abusive' late game units toss can produce.
EPT
Flash? Because he is the best and his tvp as of the moment is perfected. His play has no holes in the early game and he is able to expand on par with protoss because he is so darn good at defending. It seems that toss has no way of beating Flash in the late game. ![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1d/Project_Revolution_Dark_Archon.gif)
But it would be sexy as hell if someone did it once (would love to see Flash's face once he realizes his opponent has tanks XD), and I would definitely become a fan of the player who did it. 
