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How Protoss can beat Flash - Page 5
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ProoM
Lithuania1741 Posts
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mmp
United States2130 Posts
But I think the OP has a good point, and that is that the sheer amount of resources Protoss acquire in a standard macro game is astonishing - and it all gets dumped into carriers which may or may not win the game, but it's a very brute force way to end things, especially when Terran expects a carrier switch and has an upgrade advantage. It certainly takes foresight to get the tech going early and with air upgrades. Furthermore the carriers won't save you until all of the tech is complete and you have a critical mass. Why not look into other tech options if there is nothing more expensive or time-consuming than carriers? Mind-controlling combat units is a very efficient way to look at late-game attrition, but if you wanted to make your own tank army on the side, that would be pretty strong also. | ||
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Pliers
Canada42 Posts
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JSH
United States4109 Posts
On May 13 2010 05:25 Pliers wrote: Mods? I'm not trolling in this thread just proposing a feasible solution to the late game PvT metagame that is imo much better than the carrier switch. Except it is not You have to realize its not TvP imbalanced Flash is just playing really really good Put any other T versus Kal or something I'm pretty sure Kal would win | ||
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3FFA
United States3931 Posts
... PROTOSS is for the cool kids that pawn flash with smart skills! This OP is smart indeed! | ||
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caldo149
United States469 Posts
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Wings
United States999 Posts
Problem 1. Flash wins not necessarily by his "hanbang" attack... but by methodically destroying your expansions. Kal always gets his hugeass carrier force and then Flash kills all the expos during the transition, leading to no money for interceptors. So, first problem with this DA theory is that Kal does NOT have the luxury of spending all those minerals at a crucial time, the 1st tank will take FAR too long to pop out (I saw the stats someone posted earlier above), by then Flash will have destroyed all the expos as usual, and also that money could have been used for ground forces to stall Flash while carrier tech is achieved. Let's say Kal HAD the minerals and HAD freaking forever to build Tanks. That would mean he's essentially in a position where he is far, far, far ahead of Flash; at Kal's current skill level, it would seem much more reasonable to kill Flash the normal way, with recalls/stasis/carriers/storm etc. I actually think storm is waay undervalued in late game PvT... Problem 2. Upgrades. By then, Flash will have 3/3 upgrades vs 0/0 upgrades. I'm not sure whether you've fought in this sort of situation before, but if you have, you would know that this is utter RAPE. if Flash has a 200/200 tank/goliath army, your tanks are gonna be absolutely RAPED. If he has ONLY goliaths, then maybe you'll be good... but this is Flash. Do you think that he really won't notice Kal's CC & Factories for so freaking long?? ALTERNATIVE: I was considering the DA thing for one reason (NOT mind control); it would be interesting to try and use MAELSTROM on the clumped goliaths. Then Kal could kill huge numbers of goliaths while they just sat there. This would be really interesting to watch, because goliaths get really clumped up sometimes... Edit: yes I remembered too late that goliaths can't be maelstrom'd, thanks for everyone reminding me 100000x times. i'd be so deeply apologetic... if I really cared. point is that DAs are not the best way to kill Flash (if there even is a way). | ||
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Fumi
529 Posts
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okum
France5778 Posts
The correct solution is to build more cannons. Cannon ring around all bases. Large cannon flowerbeds on open ground. Great Chinese Walls of cannons. Preemptive cannons where terran wishes to expand. Offensive cannons in terran's base (bring probes with recalls). Decoy cannons to confuse terran about your motives. Memorial Dan O'Bannon cannons. This will greatly reduce the effectiveness of vultures and goliaths without sucking supply or wasting gas needed for carriers, arbiters or templars. + Show Spoiler + Works great when I play against the CPU. | ||
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
I tend to think Protoss have been relying too heavily on rushing carriers/arbiters instead of setting up a roaring economy and getting upgrades first. However, I would like to see more speed shuttle use. On May 13 2010 05:25 mmp wrote: But I think the OP has a good point, and that is that the sheer amount of resources Protoss acquire in a standard macro game is astonishing - and it all gets dumped into carriers which may or may not win the game, but it's a very brute force way to end things, especially when Terran expects a carrier switch and has an upgrade advantage. It certainly takes foresight to get the tech going early and with air upgrades. Furthermore the carriers won't save you until all of the tech is complete and you have a critical mass. Why not look into other tech options if there is nothing more expensive or time-consuming than carriers? Mind-controlling combat units is a very efficient way to look at late-game attrition, but if you wanted to make your own tank army on the side, that would be pretty strong also. If Protoss switches to carriers after maxing out, without having already invested into their upgrades, they deserve the loss. That's just terrible decision making. I'm not convinced Mind Control is a good choice, except to steal a worker, though. DA eats more supply and money than any unit Terran fields against Protoss. However, one DA to zap vessels certainly sounds worthwhile, and once you have unlimited funds you could certainly add mind control and +50 mana. Bottom line, I don't think Protoss needs to employ new gimmicks... they just need to employ the old gimmicks better and without making really dumb decisions. (Recalling into a 3-base, defensive Terran... dropping templars in front of vultures... killing off half their army for nothing, just to free up food for a carrier switch... playing 0-0-0 fifteen minutes into the game... stacking arbiters for an EMP... engaging the Terran ball without flanking it first...) | ||
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ISighZ
United States270 Posts
On May 13 2010 06:28 Wings wrote: I'm sure people have said this before, but I'll say it again. Problem 1. Flash wins not necessarily by his "hanbang" attack... but by methodically destroying your expansions. Kal always gets his hugeass carrier force and then Flash kills all the expos during the transition, leading to no money for interceptors. So, first problem with this DA theory is that Kal does NOT have the luxury of spending all those minerals at a crucial time, the 1st tank will take FAR too long to pop out (I saw the stats someone posted earlier above), by then Flash will have destroyed all the expos as usual, and also that money could have been used for ground forces to stall Flash while carrier tech is achieved. Let's say Kal HAD the minerals and HAD freaking forever to build Tanks. That would mean he's essentially in a position where he is far, far, far ahead of Flash; at Kal's current skill level, it would seem much more reasonable to kill Flash the normal way, with recalls/stasis/carriers/storm etc. I actually think storm is waay undervalued in late game PvT... Problem 2. Upgrades. By then, Flash will have 3/3 upgrades vs 0/0 upgrades. I'm not sure whether you've fought in this sort of situation before, but if you have, you would know that this is utter RAPE. if Flash has a 200/200 tank/goliath army, your tanks are gonna be absolutely RAPED. If he has ONLY goliaths, then maybe you'll be good... but this is Flash. Do you think that he really won't notice Kal's CC & Factories for so freaking long?? ALTERNATIVE: I was considering the DA thing for one reason (NOT mind control); it would be interesting to try and use MAELSTROM on the clumped goliaths. Then Kal could kill huge numbers of goliaths while they just sat there. This would be really interesting to watch, because goliaths get really clumped up sometimes... Ummm you cant maelstrom mech units... On topic. It's a nice idea but the game will probably end before a tank can come out.! | ||
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hp.Shell
United States2527 Posts
On May 13 2010 06:42 Severedevil wrote:and another reasonable thing to do is to build SCVs to replace some of your probes and free up food for your army. Never really took this into account, but I think it's a really good idea. Might as well keep mining with the Terran foodcount after you suicide probes for Protoss food. | ||
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ilj.psa
Peru3081 Posts
btw mind control seems like a terrible idea, sure having a tank army to add to your own army sounds good, but the whole process of getting it its not very effective. flash would destroy you before that, keep it mind that terrans can max out in around 14 mins | ||
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Chaos
United States772 Posts
On May 13 2010 06:28 Wings wrote: ALTERNATIVE: I was considering the DA thing for one reason (NOT mind control); it would be interesting to try and use MAELSTROM on the clumped goliaths. Let me know how that works out for you. | ||
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TheRunawayFound
64 Posts
On May 13 2010 05:25 Pliers wrote: Mods? I'm not trolling in this thread just proposing a feasible solution to the late game PvT metagame that is imo much better than the carrier switch. Well, try this strat vs a terran player in ICCUP (not a d- noob). I think its very hard to pull it off... | ||
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Pliers
Canada42 Posts
On May 13 2010 06:28 Wings wrote: I'm sure people have said this before, but I'll say it again. Problem 1. Flash wins not necessarily by his "hanbang" attack... but by methodically destroying your expansions. Kal always gets his hugeass carrier force and then Flash kills all the expos during the transition, leading to no money for interceptors. So, first problem with this DA theory is that Kal does NOT have the luxury of spending all those minerals at a crucial time, the 1st tank will take FAR too long to pop out (I saw the stats someone posted earlier above), by then Flash will have destroyed all the expos as usual, and also that money could have been used for ground forces to stall Flash while carrier tech is achieved. Let's say Kal HAD the minerals and HAD freaking forever to build Tanks. That would mean he's essentially in a position where he is far, far, far ahead of Flash; at Kal's current skill level, it would seem much more reasonable to kill Flash the normal way, with recalls/stasis/carriers/storm etc. I actually think storm is waay undervalued in late game PvT... Problem 2. Upgrades. By then, Flash will have 3/3 upgrades vs 0/0 upgrades. I'm not sure whether you've fought in this sort of situation before, but if you have, you would know that this is utter RAPE. if Flash has a 200/200 tank/goliath army, your tanks are gonna be absolutely RAPED. If he has ONLY goliaths, then maybe you'll be good... but this is Flash. Do you think that he really won't notice Kal's CC & Factories for so freaking long?? ALTERNATIVE: I was considering the DA thing for one reason (NOT mind control); it would be interesting to try and use MAELSTROM on the clumped goliaths. Then Kal could kill huge numbers of goliaths while they just sat there. This would be really interesting to watch, because goliaths get really clumped up sometimes... Really nice points raised here. I think the carrier transition is bad because it take far too much psi and there is a long period of time of which they are useless; this is when protoss bases get rolled. Now compare with tanks which don't take that much longer (seriously) and don't take protoss psi so you'll still be able to fight with maxed P ground army and also be able to reinforce to P's maximum capabilities. The excess money can be used to make tanks which in turn provide great defence in keeping your bases alive. The game I posted showed that evidently in the mid game money was not an issue for Kal as he kept replenishing his army to max and still able to plant down 6 stargates and make carriers simultaneously in the late game. About the upgrades, 0-0 tanks can still defend bases very well. Don't use them to fight until you have a significant amount or use them only to defend bases. Fight fire with fire, if Flash can defend till max to roll over toss, toss can defend till >max and roll over Flash. | ||
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teamsolid
Canada3668 Posts
On May 13 2010 02:23 Mekexi wrote: I appreciate OP's effort, but I think there is much simplier and stronger answer: + Show Spoiler + USE THOSE RECALLS SMARTER, GODDAMN IT!! Seriously, Protoss players are like: - Recall 15-20 units into Terran main. - Kill Armory + some Vultures. - DIE. Why not...: ...Recall to defend distant bases? ...Recall Speedlots over Terran sieged army? ...Recall into enemy main -> kill Armories -> Recall back to safety? ...Recall + Stasis-at-choke combo? Few examples were already set, but I feel those techniques are criminally underused. Because Arbiter energy is usually more valuable than 20 supply of Zeal/Dragoons when you're already at 200/200 supply. Although I do remember Bisu using these first 2 techniques to pretty decent effect on a game vs Flash a while back when he was still good (even though he lost in the end). The first technique is only really useful on weird maps with multiple paths where you can't really dictate map control that well. Why recall speedlots onto tanks, when you can just freeze the tanks completely and save the lots to absorb other tank fire? I would like to see more of the 4th one though, but I think most of the time the arbiters die to turret fire right after pulling off the recall and/or you can't wait long enough to let an arbiter save up to 200 energy. | ||
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Rkie
United States1278 Posts
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Pliers
Canada42 Posts
On May 13 2010 06:51 ilj.psa wrote: Protoss are ALWAYS a a disadvantage when facing any 200 terran army, they have to rely on their multitasking and macroing to overcome this, just producing more units than terran considering protoss at this point of the game would had more bases and resources them its a good way to do this afer they pushed out. btw mind control seems like a terrible idea, sure having a tank army to add to your own army sounds good, but the whole process of getting it its not very effective. flash would destroy you before that, keep it mind that terrans can max out in around 14 mins The process is not very effective at all, but neither is the carrier switch. It is however an option to get ahead in the late game ultimately. On May 13 2010 06:53 TheRunawayFound wrote: Well, try this strat vs a terran player in ICCUP (not a d- noob). I think its very hard to pull it off... I'm not talking about me or you or some terran player on iccup. | ||
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